"Toddlers in restaurants - a social battlefield"

The article begins by asking: A new guide is aimed at parents who want to take their toddlers and babies to restaurants, but why is there such anxiety about little ones being in the same space as childless adults? Naturally it aims at 'balanced' and reaches a rather pathetic conclusion:

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In the end, the growth of both a consciously childless group wanting to have fun in peace and a class of parent who wants to continue with some form of social life means there have to be compromises.

An alternative would be that the parents acknowledged that their choice requires sacrifices (if it's such a sacrifice to hire a babysitter instead of bringing the children to a nice restaurant).

Such a conclusion is justified as an appeal to the middle ground by claiming that there are extreme positions:

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There are extremists on both sides. There are diners who don't want even quiet children in the vicinity. Then there are parents who are strongly averse to the idea their children ever need to be controlled.

I've met plenty of parents who think their children don't need to be controlled. Yet where are these people who object to even well-behaved children (I say 'well-behaved' rather than 'quiet' because noise is only one of the annoying things a child can do in a restaurant--smearing food all over can be quiet but nonetheless disgusting) in restaurants, and how many of them are objecting on the grounds that they fear that the child will later become a problem and the parents won't control it?

I'm one of those people who can't stand being around children, and yet, if children are well behaved, I don't even notice that they exist. I think they made up the anti-child extremists in order to make it appear that most parents are being reasonable and the anti-child reaction isn't a response to poor parenting.

Some other 'choice cuts':

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The continuous wail of two nearby infants, caterwauling at subtly different pitches, can be enough to disrupt the gastronomic experience of even the hardiest of diners.

And a similar level of stress can be suffered by parents with young children, as they garner irked looks from the childless group of adults two tables away.

Oh, puulleeze. We're supposed to feel sorry for them for feeling stressed when their poor behavior is met with glares? The parents are making such sacrifices, too:

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For parents it's about making preparations, picking the right restaurant and then acting if the baby or toddler is causing excessive disruption.

"Most mumsnetters agree if a child is disrupting other diners its your responsibility to hoik them out," says O'Donovan.

"There are definitely examples of unfair treatment of parents, but mums are very cognisant that if they are taking their children to restaurants, they must get them to behave.

:BS
The parents who are being responsible aren't bringing their children to nice restaurants. Oh, and this is the 'unfair treatment' they are wailing about:

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A survey of 8,000 people for Harden's and baby food firm Plum found 31% of parents with young children had been turned away from a restaurant or cafe.

I bet those children were behaving like perfect beasts, or it was a restaurant which is trying to create a romantic image.

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Sensitive parents have a social sword of Damocles hanging over them. Many sit there aghast at the thought that the noise or behaviour of their children is about to spark upset at another table.

"There are people who don't want to sit next to families, particularly fashion conscious 20 and 30-somethings working off a hangover," says Peter Harden, publisher of Harden's Eating Out With Babies And Toddlers, and father of three children.

Social sword of Damocles? Allow me to solve this ponderous Gordian knot of modern etiquette: Leave. the. kids. at. home. Half of the people glaring at you are probably parents themselves, who are trying to get away from their kids. The article even says, of parents: "Some even admit to getting annoyed by other people's children."

This Peter Harden needs a good fuck. What a fuckwit. Does he honestly think that people who object to bratty children must be 'fashion conscious' and 'working off a hangover'? Way to work those stereotypes. The Sex in the City type of woman, if she even exists, is not the average childfree (or even childless) woman. I wouldn't know Jimmy Choo from Payless, and if I felt poorly, it wouldn't be a hangover, and the last thing I'd do would be go out for dinner.

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Restaurant critic Giles Coren, who has just become a father, admits he may have been slightly intolerant of nearby noisy children during the past.

"It used to annoy me when I was sitting in cafes in the morning reading the papers."

But once you have them, that understanding just washes in...because you expect other people to put up with shit you didn't want to put up with earlier.

At least one myth is tackled...but of course this is Mr. Harden, and so he has to word it as if permissiveness of rowdiness is a better way to deal with children, because the problem is society, not undisciplined monsters.

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It's mythology that other countries in Europe deal better with children, says Harden. Turkey is the only place Harden has been that seems to happily accommodate boisterous children in restaurants.

Nobody (or almost nobody--and I include the Turks I know among that 'nobody') wants to listen to noisy children in a restaurant. I can't count the number of times I've read this argument in comments on UK papers: "When will our country stop hating children so much and start accepting them into everyday life like they do on the continent? We have a severe hatred for children!" As someone who lives on the continent, I have to say that I have never seen so many spoiled and bratty children in restaurants here as I have in Anglo-Saxon countries.

And who says the glares and evil stares are solely from the CF...it could be from parents who hired sitters to get away from caterwauling babies and unruly toadlers for a pleasant evening among adults.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From a bottle cap message on a Magic Hat #9 beer: Condoms Prevent Minivans
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I want to pick up a bus full of unruly kids and feed them gummi bears and crack, then turn them loose in Hobby Lobby to ransack the place. They will all be wearing T shirts that say "You Could Have Prevented This."

Generally; when there is a "social battlefield" it's almost entirely one group of people in the conflict being oblivious to the basic "Golden Rule". (Yes, "do unto others as you would done unto you.") Parents who foist their bratty offspring on an unwilling, captive audience, are breaking this fundamental rule, as do people who let their dogs bark continually, shitty drivers who cut people off, and assholes who yammer on their cell phones in a movie theater.

It's simple. More convoluted viewpoints are just apologies for the jerks who think social niceties don't apply to them.

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Disingenuous author imbecile
The continuous wail of two nearby infants, caterwauling at subtly different pitches, can be enough to disrupt the gastronomic experience of even the hardiest of diners.

And a similar level of stress can be suffered by parents with young children, as they garner irked looks from the childless group of adults two tables away.

The mastermind writer who penned the above failed to point out that in both cases, the parents are the CAUSE of the stress. Their OWN as well as the stress on the other diners. It is not a reciprocal, everyone-shares-part-of-the-blame situation. The pushy, inconsiderate parents are foisting themselves and their disruptions on totally innocent bystanders. Eat the fuck at home when you have small kids, or get a babysitter! Problem solved.

gailjefferson, that's an excellent way of putting it--this 'controversy' has been created by parents deliberately disregarding social rules and then trying to cast us as uncompromising and unfair. They're like the person on the cell phone in the movie theater who then tries to get the person who complained about it kicked out.

Proof that they've been trying to change the rules:

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The question of whether it's reasonable to take potentially noisy young children to an adult-oriented restaurant is a vexed one, says Liz Wyse, etiquette adviser at Debrett's.

"Traditionally it was considered bad form to do that, but we have got much more easy going about children and children going with you. The proviso is yes you can, but you have got to be hyper, hyper aware of the people around you and the social ambience. You have got to be on your mettle and ready to remove a child as soon as it starts causing disruption."

I can't believe I overlooked this when I first wrote my comments--Giles Coren, the restaurant critic and new convert to parenthood had more to say than that he used to be annoyed.

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Older children are usually fine, he says. The problem "is when they are three and they run around knocking down the waiters".

Whatever his previous stance, having had a child he now jokes that he will take her everywhere and expect that his role as a critic will give him protected status.

"My child will be going wherever she wants because no restaurant would dare to say anything."

That's so funny that I'm going to guffaw like GF Moo. Listen to my deep belly laughs over the hilarity of abusing your position to avoid having the rules apply to you.

Fuck this asshole.

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yurble
gailjefferson, that's an excellent way of putting it--this 'controversy' has been created by parents deliberately disregarding social rules and then trying to cast us as uncompromising and unfair.

That's it right there. Another important aspect of this whole thing is the type of restaurant. There are PLENTY of famblee-friendly places such as Crapplebees, Chilis, local diners, etc. On the rare occasions when I go to those types of places, I have to expect that there will be kids. Of course, that's still no excuse for letting them scream and run absolutely wild.

But when it comes to nice, special-occasion type restaurants, parents should have the sense and consideration to stay the fuck away. Eat at home, or go to one of the places I mentioned. In that type of situation, it has a lot less to do with hating kids than hating the parents.

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Shauna's like a gluten-free Jim Jones for dumb, lifeless middle-aged women. I swear, this bitch could set fire to a orphanage and they would applaud her for bringing them light. ~ Miss Hannigan

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yurble

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"My child will be going wherever she wants because no restaurant would dare to say anything."

Your child will be going wherever SHE wants, huh? So obviously the kid is running the household. That figures. That's the whole problem right there in a nutshell. Fucktards have a kid and are too lazy to discipline and think that they have to do whatever Brataiden wants and that there is nothing they can do about it. And then they expect everyone around them to be sympathetic because, obviously, the situation is out of their control. They're right - the situation IS out of their control, and it's their fault. It doesn't mean the rest of us give a good god damn. You want to live with that shitling ordering you around at home, fine. But when you're among other adults, expect the disgusted stares, the mutterings, and the restaurants who will turn you away. There are consequences to the bad choices you've made. Either own up to them or STFU.

He's a total tool and clearly never heard of professional ethics. The restaurant critics I know go to great lengths to preserve their anonymity -- one woman has been doing it in my region for 30 years but she goes in groups and even alters her appearance to make sure she is not the beneficiary of special treatment.

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yurble
I can't believe I overlooked this when I first wrote my comments--Giles Coren, the restaurant critic and new convert to parenthood had more to say than that he used to be annoyed.

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Older children are usually fine, he says. The problem "is when they are three and they run around knocking down the waiters".

Whatever his previous stance, having had a child he now jokes that he will take her everywhere and expect that his role as a critic will give him protected status.

"My child will be going wherever she wants because no restaurant would dare to say anything."

That's so funny that I'm going to guffaw like GF Moo. Listen to my deep belly laughs over the hilarity of abusing your position to avoid having the rules apply to you.

Fuck this asshole.

I agree with you, Yurble. What a fucking asshole entitled breeder. I HATE breeders like this.

A few weeks ago, I went out to eat at a fairly decent chain restaurant for an early lunch. I realize that chain restaurants seem to cater mostly to famblees. I'm not objecting to famblees frequenting THESE types of food establishments. BUT I ended up RIGHT DIRECTLY BESIDE a screaming toadler, and the restaurant was NOT BUSY due to the early eating time. They didn't have to seat us right on top of each other. I RARELY eat out and was hoping to enjoy my meal without someone screaming in my ears (literally!). While this was happening, I was definitely thinking of this board and all of you. I even considered making a rant about this incident, but I didn't because it's a topic that's already frequently mentioned. Luckily, the toadler calmed down eventually and I was able to enjoy the rest of my meal.

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rainbow
I agree with you, Yurble. What a fucking asshole entitled breeder. I HATE breeders like this.

A few weeks ago, I went out to eat at a fairly decent chain restaurant for an early lunch. I realize that chain restaurants seem to cater mostly to famblees. I'm not objecting to famblees frequenting THESE types of food establishments. BUT I ended up RIGHT DIRECTLY BESIDE a screaming toadler, and the restaurant was NOT BUSY due to the early eating time. They didn't have to seat us right on top of each other. I RARELY eat out and was hoping to enjoy my meal without someone screaming in my ears (literally!). While this was happening, I was definitely thinking of this board and all of you. I even considered making a rant about this incident, but I didn't because it's a topic that's already frequently mentioned. Luckily, the toadler calmed down eventually and I was able to enjoy the rest of my meal.

A month or two ago, my wife and I had a similar experience. We went to a chain steakhouse near our home and we were seated next to a huge family group that they had to put multiple tables together to seat and yes, there were several brats with them. There were many other tables in the place yet they sat us next to these people. Of course, the kids were acting up, screaming, etc., so my wife asked to move us, which they did.

One reason we rarely eat out is because we don't want to deal with screaming brats, but once in a while, we enjoy the experience of being served and getting eating something we normally wouldn't, or can't, make at home. When we were growing up if we went out to eat, it didn't matter if it was fast food or a sit down restaurant, we were expected to conduct ourselves like humans, not monkeys on speed.

JD

I would like to know more about this compromising. How, exactly, are the breeders compromising in this situation? Are they compromising because they are *gasp* being asked to control their offspring? Isn't that what parenting is?

No, the people in the situation who are doing the most compromising are the parents who realized that having a nice dinner out means paying for a babysitter, and I highly doubt they want to make that compromise just to have to deal with the bratty behavior of someone else's kids.

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"Not every ejaculation deserves a name" - George Carlin

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JohnDrake

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rainbow
I agree with you, Yurble. What a fucking asshole entitled breeder. I HATE breeders like this.

A few weeks ago, I went out to eat at a fairly decent chain restaurant for an early lunch. I realize that chain restaurants seem to cater mostly to famblees. I'm not objecting to famblees frequenting THESE types of food establishments. BUT I ended up RIGHT DIRECTLY BESIDE a screaming toadler, and the restaurant was NOT BUSY due to the early eating time. They didn't have to seat us right on top of each other. I RARELY eat out and was hoping to enjoy my meal without someone screaming in my ears (literally!). While this was happening, I was definitely thinking of this board and all of you. I even considered making a rant about this incident, but I didn't because it's a topic that's already frequently mentioned. Luckily, the toadler calmed down eventually and I was able to enjoy the rest of my meal.

A month or two ago, my wife and I had a similar experience. We went to a chain steakhouse near our home and we were seated next to a huge family group that they had to put multiple tables together to seat and yes, there were several brats with them. There were many other tables in the place yet they sat us next to these people. Of course, the kids were acting up, screaming, etc., so my wife asked to move us, which they did.

One reason we rarely eat out is because we don't want to deal with screaming brats, but once in a while, we enjoy the experience of being served and getting eating something we normally wouldn't, or can't, make at home. When we were growing up if we went out to eat, it didn't matter if it was fast food or a sit down restaurant, we were expected to conduct ourselves like humans, not monkeys on speed.

JD

I would have done the same thing if it were not for the fact that: 1) We were already seated and THEN the famblee came in a few minutes later by which time we were already situated, and I thought it would appear rude for me to ask to be moved because of the toadler AND 2) The person I was eating with LOVES kyds especially ones that age and seemed to enjoy seeing and interacting with the toadler. In fact, as we were leaving, my meal partner (who finds kyds so fascinating) spoke with the moo wanting to learn more about the kyd. I desperately need to find different friends to go out with.eyes2

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Sorceress
Your child will be going wherever SHE wants, huh? So obviously the kid is running the household. That figures. That's the whole problem right there in a nutshell. Fucktards have a kid and are too lazy to discipline and think that they have to do whatever Brataiden wants and that there is nothing they can do about it. And then they expect everyone around them to be sympathetic because, obviously, the situation is out of their control. They're right - the situation IS out of their control, and it's their fault. It doesn't mean the rest of us give a good god damn. You want to live with that shitling ordering you around at home, fine. But when you're among other adults, expect the disgusted stares, the mutterings, and the restaurants who will turn you away. There are consequences to the bad choices you've made. Either own up to them or STFU.

So this! It's absolutely the parents' fault. I mean how hard is it to teaching a child basic table manners, and basic societal manners? You can bet if you watched these people eating at their own dinner tables, you would want to scream at how horrible their manners are. So when the child is taken to a restaurant, he thinks how he behaves at home is the right way to behave at a restaurant. When we were kids, we never would have been able to get away with the atrocious behavior that we see in today's kids. I would have been smacked silly into next Tuesday if I acted up like that.

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- The human gene pool could use a little chlorine

I have had the last several meals destroyed by unruly brats in restaurants. One place we went to for brunch, a brat of around the age of 7 or 8 was actually crawling around UNDER the table, and then leaps up as we pass by, and runs past us, nearly knocking me down.
As for knocking down waiters, isn't it sort of dangerous, you know, with the heavy plates, hot food, sharp knives, etc, not to mention that it isn't fucking funny when brats cause serious physical injury to someone who is trying to do their job?
I am so tired of this attitude. If I visit a fast-food chain for a burger and fries (which is extremely rarely) then I already know to expect brats. However, if I go to an expensive restaurant, I don't want my romantic meal interrupted by whiny, screaming brats. If my romantic meal is disrupted, I have no trouble making the parents know that I am not happy with their snotlings. I will glare to at them with the power of a thousand suns until they shut their brat up, or take it outside.
If they can't handle it, then they can stay the fuck home rather than me staying home, since I'm not the one causing the problem.

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M4P

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Sorceress
Your child will be going wherever SHE wants, huh? So obviously the kid is running the household. That figures. That's the whole problem right there in a nutshell. Fucktards have a kid and are too lazy to discipline and think that they have to do whatever Brataiden wants and that there is nothing they can do about it. And then they expect everyone around them to be sympathetic because, obviously, the situation is out of their control. They're right - the situation IS out of their control, and it's their fault. It doesn't mean the rest of us give a good god damn. You want to live with that shitling ordering you around at home, fine. But when you're among other adults, expect the disgusted stares, the mutterings, and the restaurants who will turn you away. There are consequences to the bad choices you've made. Either own up to them or STFU.

So this! It's absolutely the parents' fault. I mean how hard is it to teaching a child basic table manners, and basic societal manners? You can bet if you watched these people eating at their own dinner tables, you would want to scream at how horrible their manners are. So when the child is taken to a restaurant, he thinks how he behaves at home is the right way to behave at a restaurant. When we were kids, we never would have been able to get away with the atrocious behavior that we see in today's kids. I would have been smacked silly into next Tuesday if I acted up like that.

This. Our parents were Parents Not Breeders who did their job.

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lab mom

In my experience, breeders either are oblivious to any looks they get from other patrons or they seem to gloat from the negative attention.

The fact that they always resort to the same, trite strawmen that other writers do, like "fashion conscious 20 and 30-somethings working off a hangover," just proves they don't actually have their time ruined by others. They're making it all up. They probably don't know any CFers at all. Besides, how can they tell what strangers in a restaurant have kids and which ones don't? Do they think that all childed people will necessarily agree with them and unite with them in their quest to drag their spawn every-fucking-where?

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"I treat my body as a temple, Laverne. You have chosen to treat yours as an amusement park."

ENA is discussing the same article. A couple of posters look like they'd fit right in here. Others are the typical MOO types.

http://www.enotalone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=372386

So all the other diners are supposed to "PUT UP AND SHUT UP" while a breeder couple's shitsacks squall incessantly? We're supposed to somehow tune it out like the breeders do, as they just go on enjoying their meals while everone else has to suffer because of their fucking shitsacks? I DON'T THINK SO! I will give the stinkeye repeatedly towards breeders who subject their fucking brats to everyone else, thus destroying what is supposed to be an enjoyable dining experience! Fuck YOU, breeders. If you can't afford a sitter, stay the fuck home. And for those breeder-pleasers who say, "It's just a baaaybeee, that's what they DO." A big FUCK YOU, too! Baybeez and toadlers do not belong in public dining establishments unless it's McPuke's, Booger Fling, or FuckECheeze's. Leave the goddamned brats at home, assholes!

Can you tell that I've had one too many experiences with this shit? Too many to count. I hate breeders AND their brats.

I really don't get how breeders, in order to deflect the conversation away from their bullshit, point out how some adults act badly in public as well and are too noisy or inappropriate.

Fuck them - bringing your squalling brat into a restaurant is just another form of adults behaving badly in public. Kick them ALL out I say!

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law1204
ENA is discussing the same article. A couple of posters look like they'd fit right in here. Others are the typical MOO types.

http://www.enotalone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=372386

You should invite hexaemeron and Fudgie here

I also take offense to the notion that people without children in restaurants are all fashion-conscious 20-30 somethings, all working off hangovers after a hard night of partying. People who go to a restaurant without children aren't all necessarily childfree, and I'm sure that the people who chose to leave their brats at home with a babysitter, resent other breeders bringing their crackmonkeys along to ruin their night out with friends or partner.

When I go to an expensive restaurant with my SO, I expect a romantic ambiance which does not include screaming, mewling, whining, tantrums, meltdowns, running around, flinging of food, etc. Unfortunately, every time we go to a restaurant of any calibre, this sort of nonsense seems to carry on, while breeders do nothing to stop it.

I would definitely go to an establishment that is CF, or in the least, has Childed and Childfree sections, like smoking and nonsmoking sections of old. Make it soundproof and fully enclosed, and NO exceptions to the rule. I believe someone else had mentioned the idea on an earlier thread, and I thought it was pure brilliance. :smoke

After reading that link law provided, I had to change my opinion, which is that I don't care if children are in restaurants as long as they are so well-behaved that I don't notice them. That holds true for most of the places I frequent. But there are some restaurants where absolutely no children should be welcomed: those which aim for a romantic or sensual atmosphere. It just ruins the mood if you're glancing around the room and spot a young child.

There are very few people who want think about children when they are thinking about sex--they're either called pedophiles or they're baby-obsessed TTCers who can only manage to endure 'DTD' by envisioning the desired end result. And the only people who think children and romance go together are batshit insane breeders.

No shit, what is it with the tired Sex and the City comparisons? This is the best cliche they can come up with?

As for the evil stares, they could be parents working off a kid hangover who relished a night out alone with their spouses or adult friends. And you are fucking that up!

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From a bottle cap message on a Magic Hat #9 beer: Condoms Prevent Minivans
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I want to pick up a bus full of unruly kids and feed them gummi bears and crack, then turn them loose in Hobby Lobby to ransack the place. They will all be wearing T shirts that say "You Could Have Prevented This."

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law1204
I really don't get how breeders, in order to deflect the conversation away from their bullshit, point out how some adults act badly in public as well and are too noisy or inappropriate.

Fuck them - bringing your squalling brat into a restaurant is just another form of adults behaving badly in public. Kick them ALL out I say!

Not only that, but don't these breeders get the connection that badly-behaved kids turn into these badly-behaved adults that they crow about? If these breeders would just take the energy that they spend trying to foist the blame onto everyone else, and use it actually doing TMIJITW, kids in restaurants would be a non-issue.