Pick One; Pro-Choice or Pro-Life. You can't have it both ways

I'm currently having a little FB disagreement via PM regarding a comment made by my friend who is pretty liberal for the most part. She made a post about how she can't understand pro-life fuckwads, yet in the same thread, she states that she's Pro-Life for herself and would not have an abortion (already has two kids anyway and I think she got her tubes tied) BUT she's Pro-Choice for others.

That pisses me off something big time. This is not the first time I've called someone to the mat for making this statement. I know that some people want to look all upstanding and fer the fetuses because maybe they're in a religious group and stating their feelings would have them ostracized.

I stated my feelings about this to the person a few hours ago, via PM (so it's not like I argued with her on her own page) and she gave me all kinds of grief.

I tried to explain that you can't have it both ways. If you believe that others have the right to safe, legal abortions, that makes you pro-choice. It doesn't mean you have to have an abortion should you find yourself in the position of an inconvenient/dangerous pregnancy. That's what choice is all about.

Or am I missing something here. Now I need to find my Butthurt Report Form.

While I agree with your fundamental and literal argument that in essence choosing NOT to have an abortion for herself and simultaneously believing that others should have access to abortion would technically be "Pro-Choice", in the abortion debate there are many gray areas. First we have to consider the common terminology associated with it and the connotation that the phrase,"Pro-Choice" has taken on over the past 4 decades or so. Literally, "Pro-Choice" means exactly that, ie:Being "for" a woman's right to choose to have an abortion, or not. However, it has become a trigger phrase that to the great majority means, FOR abortion. As we all know, MANY, if not perhaps a majority, of people are ANTI-abortion, but they make concessions in certain cases such as "rape or incest"™.

Then of course there are those who are STAUNCH anti abortion regardless of the reason and think that ALL zygotes "deserve" to be carried to term. Then there are those at the other extreme who don't think that ANY unwanted inpigness, or sometimes even if it IS "wanted", should be born and while they call themselves "pro-choice" they aren't really "for" choice in the matter. Then there are people like me who call themselves "pro-choice", but I don't think it's okay to wait until the third trimester to have an elective abortion for convenience when it could have been performed in the first trimester. I think when the fetus can live on it's own that it's wrong to employ one of the many awful methods of abortion at 7, 8, or even 9 months' gestation and I feel like THAT is murder.

It especially sounds like murder to me when labor must be induced. Then, since legally more than half the baby can't be outside their hole or it's considered a live birth, they slice it up, burn it to death chemically, or poke a sharp object through it's skull to kill it before it's body reaches the halfway point, among other methods. Does that make me "pro-life"? These are some of the reasons why the abortion debate is so heated. So, technically the woman sounds "Pro-choice" to me because, while she doesn't choose abortion for herself, she thinks that women in general should have a "choice". Abortion isn't a black and white topic and there are many schools of thought on the subject in addition to the few that I mentioned. IMHO.

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If YOU are the "exception" to what I am saying, then why does my commentary bother you so much?
I don't hate your kids, I HATE YOU!

Couple members on this board have it both ways. Openly. But then again, they lean more towards anti-choice.

Well, I suppose that's better than the other way around...pro-choice for herself but pro-life for others. You know, the Fundie Way. fuck

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Shauna's like a gluten-free Jim Jones for dumb, lifeless middle-aged women. I swear, this bitch could set fire to a orphanage and they would applaud her for bringing them light. ~ Miss Hannigan

I think maybe I should become pro-abortion. Given population pressures, abortion's a much better option than adoption for any unwanted fetus. More abortions all around! Or, better, more contraceptives all around, so fewer abortions are necessary--seriously, is there anyone who wants less contraception and more abortions? Pro-abortion is such a stupid straw man.

I think the woman discussed in the original post does fit the definition of pro-choice, but doesn't want to say that, just like many women didn't want to use the f-word (feminist) to describe themselves while at the same time claiming they supported equal rights for men and women. I think it's silly if people won't use the label which accurately describes their views, but at least she's not trying to tell other people not to have abortions, which is most important.

I am of the mindset that anyone who advocates choice is pro-choice. I have friends who don't like abortion, but don't want the government to dictate whether it is legal or not. Calling them anti-choice is not accurate.

As was stated, there are many shades of gray in this debate. I would say OP is pro-choice, even if they don't believe that abortion is the right choice for them. Being pro-choice means having the freedom to have a baby, or not. I believe every baby should be born wanted and loved from the git-go, even after the novelty wears off....and there should be options for those who do not want or love it from its conception.

And the fundie way already has a name; they call it hypocrisy.

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From a bottle cap message on a Magic Hat #9 beer: Condoms Prevent Minivans
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I want to pick up a bus full of unruly kids and feed them gummi bears and crack, then turn them loose in Hobby Lobby to ransack the place. They will all be wearing T shirts that say "You Could Have Prevented This."

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kidlesskim
...I don't think it's okay to wait until the third trimester to have an elective abortion for convenience when it could have been performed in the first trimester. I think when the fetus can live on it's own that it's wrong to employ one of the many awful methods of abortion at 7, 8, or even 9 months' gestation and I feel like THAT is murder.

It especially sounds like murder to me when labor must be induced. Then, since legally more than half the baby can't be outside their hole or it's considered a live birth, they slice it up, burn it to death chemically, or poke a sharp object through it's skull to kill it before it's body reaches the halfway point, among other methods. Does that make me "pro-life"? These are some of the reasons why the abortion debate is so heated. So, technically the woman sounds "Pro-choice" to me because, while she doesn't choose abortion for herself, she thinks that women in general should have a "choice". Abortion isn't a black and white topic and there are many schools of thought on the subject in addition to the few that I mentioned. IMHO.

No respectable doctor will do an abortion on a healthy pregnancy in the third trimester. When one is done it is because something went seriously wrong with the pregnancy. As distasteful as some of the procedures are they are necessary to remove a seriously deformed fetus. The hysteria over "partial birth abortion" is forced birther fundies trying to convince the public that all abortion is gruesome dismembering of baybees. A tiny percentage, less than one percent, of abortions are late term.

That person is mistaken about what prochoice means. Choice isn't a euphemism for abortion, despite what misogynists like to claim. Choice means choice, people get to choose how to manage their own reproduction.
Being prochoice means supporting the right for people to choose when and how to have children, or how to avoid it. Being prochoice does not prescribe any particular choice.

Furthermore, I take issue with misogynists claiming the label, prolife, because they aren't. If prolife is about respecting and protecting the lives of human beings, than there are few things more anti-life than being anti-choice. Attempting to control other people's reproduction one way or the other only gets people killed. The only way anyone can honestly claim to be prolife is by being prochoice.

http://www.boulderabortionclinic.com/

http://eveabortioncarespecialists.com/2nd_trimester.html


The two above clinics perform elective abortions up to 6 months gestation and up to 9 months for medical problems of either the moo or fetus, which of course could be a wide range of things and is subjective. I fail to see how in the United States that IF a fetus is FUBAR that it can't be detected until up until the delivery date. If the woman has a gynecologist or OB-GYN and it's medically necessary, then HE would likely perform the abortion unless it's in the bible belt region. Even then, those fundie doctors would do it if the moo's life was in danger because that is "okay". Therefore, it makes me question the reasoning of going to an abortion clinic for a late term abortion in the first place considering all of the bullshit that the woman must endure at such places.

I don't know the specifics of how they got it done, but I went to school with two different girls who had late term abortions down in Florida in the 1980's and BOTH of them were without a doubt AT LEAST 7 months along. So, elective abortions DO take place in the open up to 6 months and at 6 or more months on the down low. I doubt it's very common, but it does take place. Let me make it clear that I am "for" late term abortions remaining legal for the sole purpose that there are legitimate reasons to have one, even though it means that a small percentage are elective.

From wikipedia:
" In 1987, the Alan Guttmacher Institute collected questionnaires from 1,900 women in the United States who came to clinics to have abortions. Of the 1,900 questioned, 420 had been pregnant for 16 or more weeks. These 420 women were asked to choose among a list of reasons they had not obtained the abortions earlier in their pregnancies. The results were as follows:

71% Woman didn't recognize she was pregnant or misjudged gestation
48% Woman found it hard to make arrangements for abortion
33% Woman was afraid to tell her partner or parents
24% Woman took time to decide to have an abortion
8% Woman waited for her relationship to change
8% Someone pressured woman not to have abortion
6% Something changed after woman became pregnant
6% Woman didn't know timing is important
5% Woman didn't know she could get an abortion
2% A fetal problem was diagnosed late in pregnancy
11% Other"


So, just according to this small sampling, there were a precious plenty of elective late term abortions. Being afraid, waiting for a relationship to change, finding it "hard" to make arrangements that take such a HUGE effort as calling a clinic and scheduling an appointment, ignorance of gestation, etc......are piss poor reasons to have a late term abortion, IMHO. How any woman can NOT know she's knocked up in a 6 or 7 week time frame is beyond me. If they want to abort then more power to them, but they just need to do it before the baby is formed enough to possibly even live on it's own with some assistance even. I realize that some people don't differentiate between one at 6 weeks VS 6 months, but personally I think it makes a huge difference. It is however, MY opinion.

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If YOU are the "exception" to what I am saying, then why does my commentary bother you so much?
I don't hate your kids, I HATE YOU!

Okay, the Guttmacher survey is from 1987 so that's a problem with it right there. A lot has happened in 24 years with medical advances that can determine fetal abnormality earlier and earlier in the pregnancy. Even so, 420 out of 1900 is less than 1/4th and 16 weeks is only 4 months. The survey doesn't say how many of the women over 16 weeks were well over 16 weeks so it's impossible to conclude that late term abortions involving D&E (dilation and extraction) are commonplace based on it, although the "2% A fetal problem was diagnosed late in pregnancy" figure is consistent with the tiny number of very late term abortions done legally in the US (can't speak to those done illegally because I don't know what the numbers are). In that Wikipedia entry the 2003 data is 1.4% of abortions are performed at 21 weeks or later.

Also most regular OB-Gyns don't perform abortions. They either aren't trained or they refuse to do them. That's why therapeutic surgical abortions are typically done in abortion clinics right alongside the elective ones. Some women who are opposed to abortion but seeking one for a medical reason will ask if they have to sit in the same waiting room with the women getting regular abortions. Yes, they do.

And, thanks to forced birthers and their successful legislative efforts in numerous states to put barriers in front of a legal medical procedure, it actually is a giant fucking pain in the ass to get an abortion in big swaths of this country. There has been an uptick in later procedures (as well as women carrying to term) solely due to delays imposed by these assholes. Here in AZ the majority of early abortions done in areas outside Phoenix and Tucson are by pill. Nurse practitioners were able to administer them. It was working fine but the Bible thumpers got a law passed requiring all abortions to be done in a clinic, including those done via pill which now must be administered by a doctor. So a girl on the Navajo rez in Bumfuck now has to get to the closest city which is 5 hours away. She now has to visit the doctor and view an ultrasound of the fetus 24 hours prior to the procedure. That means she has to find someone to stay with in Tucson or pay for a hotel. Then she returns to the clinic where she is given the pill she should have been able to get from a nurse in her own town.

I've been volunteering with Planned Parenthood for years (the only charity I will ever support) so I'm very familiar with this topic and really kneejerk sensitive to forced birther propaganda. Dr. Tiller was hounded and smeared, called "Tiller the Baby Killer" by Bill O'Reilly, and eventually murdered by an Operation Rescue whackjob who was convinced he was ridding the world of a horrible butcher and "saving baybees". Every other doctor who performs late term abortions in this country is being targeted and hunted in a similar manner. These are some brave fucking individuals performing a needed service and I will defend them to the end. And I will not cede one inch to panty sniffing forced birther douchebags hellbent on getting ALL abortions banned along with birth control.

Thank you for your replies. I am honestly flabbergasted that this person would get such an itchy butt because I picked this point out, and, as I said, I did it privately, not on her page for all to see.

I think she just got pissed because I said her logic was flawed on this point.

Interestingly enough, she didn't ream out the person who made the incorrect assumption that just because I'm married means I'm lucky enough to have someone that "puts up with me". It was said i a very derogatory way, but I didn't get all butthurt. Where's my BRF.....

.

kidlesskim
By your own source, the list of reasons for waiting is for women who waited until 16 weeks. True, the vast majority of abortions are performed by 9 weeks, so 16 would be late by comparison, but it's still not near viability yet.

It's entirely possible for someone to not realize they're pregnant until late, especially if they were already overweight and/or kept having a period. Hell, TLC has a program called "I Didn't Know I Was Pregnant" about women who didn't discover they're pregnancy until they're in labor, and explains how that can happen.

I am very uncomfortable imposing arbitrary limits on when a woman can and can't seek abortion care. Who am I to control someone else's medical care? And why should pregnancy, at any stage, make a woman's body any less her own?

A lot of people say they are for abortion only in cases of rape or incest. Which, at first glance, appears to be a compassionate position. Who could want to force a girl or bear her rapist's or daddy's baby? But if you really think about it, it's a messed up view. Apparently it's okay to kill da pweshus baybees for rape or incest but pregnancies caused by regular fucking must be carred to term because they're pweshus baybees who shouldn't be killed. Frequently proponents of this view mention that "abortion shouldn't be used as birth control". Well, actually, abortion IS a form of birth control in that it prevents a birth. As birth control methods go it's pretty harsh but, yes indeed, it is birth control. Now, it is true abortion is certainly not a form of contraception which is most people's preferred method. Apart from the logical and ethical inconsistencies of this stance it is also fucked up in that what people who hold it are basically saying is "Irresponsible sluts should be punished for their irresponsibility with a baby! That'll teach 'em!" Really? You really want to entrust someone too stupid to figure out how not to get pregnant with a baby that she doesn't want? I don't get that at all. Are child abuse and neglect rates not high enough for some people?

The real irony of my argument? The person I'm debating, I believe, has her tubes tied. I'm not absolutely sure, but I think she mentioned it to me once. If that's the case, holding a "pro-life for myself" stance is a moot point.

I'm glad she's got her tubes tied if she's against abortion for herself.

I think a woman who calls herself pro life because she wouldn't have an abortion but supports the right of other women to choose is actually confused about what pro life and pro choice mean.

It really is simple, isn't it? Pro choice means exactly what it says it means.Choose to abort.Choose to breed.The important word is CHOOSE.Pro-life means exactly the opposite of what it claims to mean. Pro lifers want to force women to keep their unwanted mistakes,even if it ruins their lives,instead of aborting before the mistakes become people with ruined lives ,too.They don't care how much misery results from their efforts to inflict their beliefs on others with oposing,equally valid ,and usually far more thought-out beliefs of their own.

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amy
I think a woman who calls herself pro life because she wouldn't have an abortion but supports the right of other women to choose is actually confused about what pro life and pro choice mean.

It really is simple, isn't it? Pro choice means exactly what it says it means.Choose to abort.Choose to breed.The important word is CHOOSE.Pro-life means exactly the opposite of what it claims to mean. Pro lifers want to force women to keep their unwanted mistakes,even if it ruins their lives,instead of aborting before the mistakes become people with ruined lives ,too.They don't care how much misery results from their efforts to inflict their beliefs on others with oposing,equally valid ,and usually far more thought-out beliefs of their own.

This
Plus, blocking access to abortion care kills at least 68,000 women per year, according to the World Health Organization.

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nomooingzone
"Irresponsible sluts should be punished for their irresponsibility with a baby! That'll teach 'em!"

This. I heard it put similarly and succinctly once: "It's not about saving innocent lives, it's about punishing sluts." And what creeps me out is that I have a co-called feminist friend whose pro-life arguments only illustrate that in action. She really does spout the line that a woman who opens her legs should be stuck having any kid that results. It's her 'fault' for having sex, since abstinence is the only 100% non-pregnancy guarantee. :headbrick

If you would personally never have an abortion, but support other women having that option, that makes you pro-CHOICE. If you rally for abortion to be made illegal and prevent women from terminating unwanted pregnancies because a fetus is more important than a sentient human, you are ANTI-choice.

I don't much care for the term "pro-life" because I think those who are smart enough to abort unwanted pregnancies could be in favor of life - their own lives, looking out for themselves. Sometimes, saving a child's life involves not letting it be born in the first place. But I understand that waving the enemy flag could get confusing too.

I think I'd consider myself pro-choice and pro-abortion. This is because I am absolutely in favor of abortion being available everywhere and easily accessible, and I would abort any pregnancy that were to ever occur in my own body. But I am also in favor of abortion as a way to deal with unwanted pregnancies for a few reasons. The first one being overpopulation - we do not need more people, so if one more can be prevented from being born, then good. Second, the system needs no more children. Third, a child raised by parents who have to make themselves love it WILL catch on to their parents' opinion of them eventually. Fifth - how many unwanted pregnancies end in infanticide/retroactive abortion? Kill the thing when it's a vegetating fetus, not when it's a sentient, born person.

Pro-lifers care not one bit about anyone's life - they are willing to wreck the lives of women and possibly the children forced to be birthed (especially if those children get killed by their parents). Many don't even care if the woman could die from being pregnant. And they do this as a way of exerting control over someone. I think it's a lot like how rape is never about sex - it's about controlling someone else. Pro-life is not about saving lives - it's about someone trying to put a woman* in what they feel is her rightful place by making her do shit she doesn't want or need to do.

*Yes, I know women are not the only ones who can be sexually abused.

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CrabCake
Well, I suppose that's better than the other way around...pro-choice for herself but pro-life for others. You know, the Fundie Way. fuck

That's kind of how I feel. If they're working and mostly supporting the kids they're bringing into the world, it's their business, just as it's a CF woman's business if she finds herself pregnant and wants an abortion.

In Canada, at least 12 years ago when I had an abortion, you only had the option to terminate up to 12 weeks.
I had only found out at about 10 weeks that I was parasitized, as of course it was too early to be showing and I still had a regular period.
It was quite a scramble to get in under the wire, so to speak.
I absolutely agree with later term abortions, as I was so close to being past the legal time of abortion that I really sympathize with women who for whatever reason find themselves in the absolutely terrifying position of being forced to carry to term when they don't want to.

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juliewashere88
kidlesskim
By your own source, the list of reasons for waiting is for women who waited until 16 weeks. True, the vast majority of abortions are performed by 9 weeks, so 16 would be late by comparison, but it's still not near viability yet.

It's entirely possible for someone to not realize they're pregnant until late, especially if they were already overweight and/or kept having a period. Hell, TLC has a program called "I Didn't Know I Was Pregnant" about women who didn't discover they're pregnancy until they're in labor, and explains how that can happen.

I am very uncomfortable imposing arbitrary limits on when a woman can and can't seek abortion care. Who am I to control someone else's medical care? And why should pregnancy, at any stage, make a woman's body any less her own?

Like I have already said, I am "for" late term abortions, but it bothers me that SOME, albeit a small percentage, wait until the last trimester to get an elective one when they could have done it much sooner. These aren't "my" sources, I am simply pointing out that it can and does happen. I didn't spend more than a minute "researching" it, but common sense and your own sources verify that it does happen. Even 1% of how ever many total late term elective abortions that have taken place since 1973 is quite a high number, IMHO. Even if a woman is morbidly obese, if she is fucking and not sterilized then she SHOULD be pissing on a stick routinely to avoid this type of shit. I do, so I fail to see why they can't do it too.

I AGREE with your comment in bold, but I just don't happen to like it when they wait until the 6th month or after when they could have done it sooner. It is ONLY my opinion, mkay? If by some bizarre reason all of my attempts at not getting knocked up failed and I winded up being totally oblivious to the fact that I was inpig until the 6th month, then I'd go and get it cut out too. I do NOT buy that someone can get to the 6th month and NOT know, lard ass or not.

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If YOU are the "exception" to what I am saying, then why does my commentary bother you so much?
I don't hate your kids, I HATE YOU!

You can get to the 17th week and not know you're pregnant. I did. I was on Alesse birth control pills plus the guy and I rigorously used condoms. I had my periods normally, no cramps, no weight gain, no NOTHING. I also, having been adamantly childfree since I was first conscious (an early identifier) was in the habit of doing pregnancy tests a lot. I did TWO during this pregnancy. The first one came out negative - that was at about the 13th week stage. The second one I did around the 17th week stage and I couldn't believe that the test results were correct given the early negative plus all of my precautions. Went to the gyno, had a snippy woman do an ultrasound and try to get me to look at the parasite, the same woman who said, "You're in a relationship, right?" (Yes, actually - with the love of my life - same guy I'm with now 12 years later.) "Well if you really love him didn't you ever think that you guys should have a kid together?" This bitch is telling me this while I'm seriously planning ways to kill myself if I can't get an abortion.

I was able to get one at 19 weeks at a place that specialized in late term abortions. Most of the women there were very young, probably teens who hid their pignancy from their parents, doing the "face of shame" as they sat in the lobby with their cranky looking dads or frowning mothers. When I went to the clinic to see if they could do one for me they did their own ultrasound and said this was about the latest they did them and I'd have to get scheduled right away. I openly told them if I couldn't get one I WOULD be killing myself. And I would have. I am THAT hardcore childfree.

Fortunately, they did the surgery, and life returned to normal. It was sad and traumatic because it just fucking IS and it was NOT what I would have chosen.

So, kidlesskim, sometimes you DON'T know. Even when doing regular pregnancy tests on yourself and taking massive precautions. A tubal was out of the question at that point in my life because I was 28 and no doctor would perform one for me. THAT would have been nice, to be able to get one and avoid the shit I went through.

PS Abortion clinics are really sad. The doctors have to sort of hide them away and change offices regularly because of protestors and trying to provide a safe environment for patients. My doctor had moved addresses several times in the last few years, and thank god nobody was protesting outside. But it was a dark, ugly, inner city office, and it was about an hour away from where I lived. If I'd lived farther away it would have been SO much harder. And at that time there were very FEW places doing later term abortions - I imagine now there are even fewer. I'm in the Northeast near several major cities. Lucky me.

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loavesstillsuck
You can get to the 17th week and not know you're pregnant. I did. I was on Alesse birth control pills plus the guy and I rigorously used condoms. I had my periods normally, no cramps, no weight gain, no NOTHING. I also, having been adamantly childfree since I was first conscious (an early identifier) was in the habit of doing pregnancy tests a lot. I did TWO during this pregnancy. The first one came out negative - that was at about the 13th week stage. The second one I did around the 17th week stage and I couldn't believe that the test results were correct given the early negative plus all of my precautions. Went to the gyno, had a snippy woman do an ultrasound and try to get me to look at the parasite, the same woman who said, "You're in a relationship, right?" (Yes, actually - with the love of my life - same guy I'm with now 12 years later.) "Well if you really love him didn't you ever think that you guys should have a kid together?" This bitch is telling me this while I'm seriously planning ways to kill myself if I can't get an abortion.

I was able to get one at 19 weeks at a place that specialized in late term abortions. Most of the women there were very young, probably teens who hid their pignancy from their parents, doing the "face of shame" as they sat in the lobby with their cranky looking dads or frowning mothers. When I went to the clinic to see if they could do one for me they did their own ultrasound and said this was about the latest they did them and I'd have to get scheduled right away. I openly told them if I couldn't get one I WOULD be killing myself. And I would have. I am THAT hardcore childfree.

Fortunately, they did the surgery, and life returned to normal. It was sad and traumatic because it just fucking IS and it was NOT what I would have chosen.

So, kidlesskim, sometimes you DON'T know. Even when doing regular pregnancy tests on yourself and taking massive precautions. A tubal was out of the question at that point in my life because I was 28 and no doctor would perform one for me. THAT would have been nice, to be able to get one and avoid the shit I went through.

PS Abortion clinics are really sad. The doctors have to sort of hide them away and change offices regularly because of protestors and trying to provide a safe environment for patients. My doctor had moved addresses several times in the last few years, and thank god nobody was protesting outside. But it was a dark, ugly, inner city office, and it was about an hour away from where I lived. If I'd lived farther away it would have been SO much harder. And at that time there were very FEW places doing later term abortions - I imagine now there are even fewer. I'm in the Northeast near several major cities. Lucky me.

I don't know why you are picking on me because like I said, I don't see how someone can make it to SIX MONTHS and not know. Like you said, you were only 17 weeks. Also, the being on the pill AND using condoms, a pregnancy test that showed up negative when you are over 3 months along, and being COMPLETELY asymptomatic is a fucking medical anomaly. I am glad that you caught it in time and am glad that late term abortions are available, but your case is a rare exception unless you believe all of those moo-cunts on the "I didn't know I was inpig" shows whose first clue was when they went into labor. Perhaps the only ones with these medical anomalies to speak up are the loaf shitters, I really don't know.

ONE more time:I AM FOR LATE TERM ABORTIONS. I just don't personally like it when they are elective and they have known they were inpig since week 5.

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If YOU are the "exception" to what I am saying, then why does my commentary bother you so much?
I don't hate your kids, I HATE YOU!