Pick One; Pro-Choice or Pro-Life. You can't have it both ways

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kidlesskim
I don't know why you are picking on me because like I said, I don't see how someone can make it to SIX MONTHS and not know. Like you said, you were only 17 weeks. Also, the being on the pill AND using condoms, a pregnancy test that showed up negative when you are over 3 months along, and being COMPLETELY asymptomatic is a fucking medical anomaly. I am glad that you caught it in time and am glad that late term abortions are available, but your case is a rare exception unless you believe all of those moo-cunts on the "I didn't know I was inpig" shows whose first clue was when they went into labor. Perhaps the only ones with these medical anomalies to speak up are the loaf shitters, I really don't know.

ONE more time:I AM FOR LATE TERM ABORTIONS. I just don't personally like it when they are elective and they have known they were inpig since week 5.

I don't mean to pick on you, KidlessKim, I like you! I do disagree with your point of view on this subject, though, in the sense that I hold a very different view. That's what I was trying to clarify with my post - not trying to pick on you, honest!

In my case, if I had found out at six or seven months and been able to have the abortion I would have. I wouldn't have waited that long if I already knew I was pregnant, obviously. I can understand why some people like yourself might object to women or teens who do that.

But while there are certainly loads of scared young teens out there who let a pignancy go on far too long before even mentioning their pignancy to a parent, who sometimes will help them get an abortion then, keep in mind that a lot of these same scared girls (especally if they live far away from a late term abortion clinic and/or have fundie Pro-Lie Parents) have been trying during that entire time to do at home abortions -- starving themselves, taking herbs, and other things like working out too much or overdoing athletics. They probably didn't sit and go, "Shit, I'm pregnant and I intend to wait until the last possible minute and then have a late term abortion." So in many cases that fetus is already sick, deformed, or poisoned in utero and would not live any sort of decent life if labor was induced and the doctors tried to get it to live outside the womb. I know loads of young girls who went that route ranging from 1950's era women with unwanted pignancies to current day ones. I've taught lots of them how to do abortificant herbs correctly (most abortificant herbs don't work late in a pregnancy, though, and they didn't work with mine. They work best when you take them early on in the first three months of pignancy and also work best when you aren't already on some hormone-based form of birth control.)

Also, this is just my view, if my OWN mother had either 1)found out she was pregnant and let it go for a while and then had an abortion late along in her pregnancy or 2) didn't know she was pregnant until she was very far along and then aborted me I WOULD BE FINE WITH THAT. I have a moral and spiritual "allergy" to parasitizing another human being who doesn't want me in her body. End of story. And I am 100% serious about that. In a similar way, I GOT HERE FUCKING FIRST and if I decide to abort a baby at seven months, eight months, or nine fucking months, GOOD FOR FUCKING ME.

As I said, I am hardcore childfree. So I just have a different view on this, that's all, KidlessK. We don't have to agree on everything! And sorry if it seemed I was picking on you. You're a great contributor here and I always love reading your posts.

Where the fuck is Zatoth? This is her favorite subject!

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"[GFG's pregnancy is] kind of like at the stables where that one dumb, ugly-ass mare broke out of her corral one day and got herself screwed by the equally fugly colt that was due to be gelded the same afternoon."- Shiny

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Miss_Hannigan
Where the fuck is Zatoth? This is her favorite subject!

Probably at a heavy metal concert or art class or something.

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If YOU are the "exception" to what I am saying, then why does my commentary bother you so much?
I don't hate your kids, I HATE YOU!

The thing is that forced breeder propaganda is relentless and rampant to the point where even reasonable and smart people have internalized their memes. The two ideas that have stuck the most with the general public are:

1. The "abortion shouldn't be used as birth control" one, which as I've explained is really illogical and morally inconsistent if you think about it for two minutes.

2. That so-called "partial birth" is a common procedure and a woman can walk into any abortion clinic 8 months pregnant with a healthy fetus and have it extracted by a callous doctor who is only interested in the $$$$ he will earn from the procedure.

Number 1 is just idiotic but number 2 implicates and endangers doctors.

Number one is logical if you think about it. Contraception does fail. However, when I see someone who has had several abortions I ask if she is unlucky or failing to use it properly. Abortion is a mighty expensive means of birth control.

Can I see the second thing happening? Yup...in the same way I see news every day of some person dying after plastic surgery and you find out the doctor is not qualified...but he sat through a weekend symposium on reconstructive surgery, and he is a doctor. Some will jeopardize everything if the price is right though this is not the norm.

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From a bottle cap message on a Magic Hat #9 beer: Condoms Prevent Minivans
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I want to pick up a bus full of unruly kids and feed them gummi bears and crack, then turn them loose in Hobby Lobby to ransack the place. They will all be wearing T shirts that say "You Could Have Prevented This."

I'm not talking about quacks doing illegal procedures. I'm talking about legit doctors being hounded and threatened and in some cases murdered. The fact that so many normal people have swallowed forced birther propaganda that late term abortions are done for convenience contributes to Operation Rescue whackjobs thinking their cause is just.

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navi8orgirl
Number one is logical if you think about it. Contraception does fail. However, when I see someone who has had several abortions I ask if she is unlucky or failing to use it properly. Abortion is a mighty expensive means of birth control.

Can I see the second thing happening? Yup...in the same way I see news every day of some person dying after plastic surgery and you find out the doctor is not qualified...but he sat through a weekend symposium on reconstructive surgery, and he is a doctor. Some will jeopardize everything if the price is right though this is not the norm.

I agree on all counts.wink


Also, the vast majority of people have come to accept the term "birth control" as meaning a preventative measure and mistakenly say not to use abortion as birth control when that is EXACTLY what it is, a form of controlling birth. I have even heard people say things that make it OBVIOUS that they think that "birth control" means the pill too. It annoys me when people say that about abortion the way that they often do too. What they mean is not to use abortion as their only method of birth control. This isn't just semantics either to me because I think that it is INSULTING when people claim that someone solely uses abortion as their method of birth control. Perhaps some might, but MY GOD why would they? It hurts and it's expensive, not to mention having to deal with those self righteous picketers.

I also don't believe that any reputable doctor or clinic would abort 7-9 month old healthy fetus', but it absolutely IS done, like Navi8orgirl has mentioned. LOTS of illegal shit gets done on a daily basis if the price is right.

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If YOU are the "exception" to what I am saying, then why does my commentary bother you so much?
I don't hate your kids, I HATE YOU!

Sometimes girls do crazy shit like pay someone to beat their pregnant stomachs. Some women drown their babies in the toilet right after they're born. And yes, some women are able to get illegal (operative word here) late abortions on healthy fetuses on the black market. My point is that a lot of the general public thinks that 8 months pregnant hoochies are waddling into Planned Parenthood and getting "partial birth" abortions on demand. That is simply not happening.

The fact that we're talking about a procedure that amounts to maybe 1% of abortions today is a testament to the efficacy of the relentless forced breed propaganda efforts. This messaging campaign has created a climate where there is tacit public acceptance of abortion providers (particularly the rare few who do late term procedures) being under constant death threats and the very existence of Planned Parenthood being in jeopardy.

Nomooing, you are also correct. I have read about women doing crazy shit just to say they did not abort. Beating themselves, having their "boyfriends" beat them or toss them down a flight of stairs, and who knows what else. I know that the illegal shit goes on. All of us know this is not going on at the average doctor office or PP.

However, I work with a smart conservative guy who had no idea that they offered health services to men. I said this is how many broke ass college kids get physicals and many PPs don't even offer abortion services (but can point you in the right direction.) So maybe they don't pay attention or PP needs a better PR mouthpiece (or the buses full of fetus fanatics need to go off a cliff before they spread the stupid too far....whoops too late.)

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From a bottle cap message on a Magic Hat #9 beer: Condoms Prevent Minivans
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I want to pick up a bus full of unruly kids and feed them gummi bears and crack, then turn them loose in Hobby Lobby to ransack the place. They will all be wearing T shirts that say "You Could Have Prevented This."

You're right navi8orgirl about all of that.^^^^ I remember going to a PP when I was a teen because I heard that they'd prescribe the pill and not rat you out to your parents, which they did. It was at that visit that I learned the wide range of services offered and was looking forward to going back for other things. Then, on my next visit, I was accosted by fundie nutcases carrying dead babyee signs and literally WEEPING and crying out to me to , "Please don't kill your baybeeeeeeeeeeeeeee" as I went inside. It was AWFUL and I didn't go back because of that harassment and there was a fucking local news team out there. Apparently they performed abortions on Tue and Thurs nights as well as Saturday, so they were all there early and gearing up to harass the patients later on in the evening.

That's how they operate. They use intimidation and indirectly give the impression that everyone will know that you are killing your baybee if you go into one of those centers. That happened over 30 years ago and it STILL pisses me off. This was my first exposure to these nutcases and I encountered them many more times throughout my life and have grown to outright DESPISE them AND their shitty and spineless tactics.:sbx

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If YOU are the "exception" to what I am saying, then why does my commentary bother you so much?
I don't hate your kids, I HATE YOU!

Anti-choicers are basically panty sniffing control freaks who get off on the idea of punishing the dirty, dirty sluts. Believe me, I encounter them all the time and it is ALL about sex for them. They despise Planned Parenthood because they see PP as letting the sluts (and the gays) escape Gawd's wrath. Now, if they came right out and admitted this they'd be marginalized as the fucking creeps they are. So instead they pretend it's all about the baybeez and also how much they luuuuuuurve us wimminz and don't want us to be traumatized.

yurble, I just call myself "anti-natalist." Maybe you can call yourself "pro-correctly-used-contraception" or "pro-population-control." ^_^

the noodler, no offense (and I totally understand where you're coming from), but this seems like a kind of nitpicky argument. If she doesn't want to identify as pro-choice, she doesn't have to. Some people do identify as pro-life for themselves and pro-choice for others.

I wouldn't say it necessarily means that they are trying to "look good," because when you say that you are okay with other people getting abortions, you *are* saying you are okay with abortions and that doesn't "look good" to the people who are truly "pro-life." She just has a different way of describing her feelings than you do and there's nothing wrong with that.

At the end of the day, you both agree that women should have the choice to make their own decisions. Is an argument about how she identifies worth your friendship?

By the way, there is still a very, very, very low chance of getting pregnant after having a tubal litigation, so it's not really a moot point.

The best argument I have seen for "Pro Choice" - is, approximately, that if the government legislates breeding it can just as soon swing the other way to where people are forced to have abortions.

As does happen in some parts of the world now.

"Choice" means choice TO breed, as well.

JayJay - I guess pro-population-control is the best label for me, because I am in favor of limiting the choice to breed, as Zzelda points out. I think that we need to consider our species as a whole, as well as the environment that we live in, and legislate our breeding so that we don't destroy everything. The good of the many--in this case, everyone--should outweigh the desires of some. I used to have a more live-and-let-live approach to breeding but that was when I was thinking of it in isolation (who am I to tell someone else what to do?). When I consider it within the context of our limited resources, it quickly becomes clear that rampant breeding is completely unethical, and even breeding once is quite ethically dubious because you do so knowing that other people are overbreeding.

I wouldn't mind if we became extinct as a species, but I wouldn't classify myself as anti-natalist because my views on humans stem more from environmental concern than the ethical position that all life leads to death and suffering and should therefore be avoided. Also, I'm pretty neutral on other species, or even in favor of saving them.

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yurble
JayJay - I guess pro-population-control is the best label for me, because I am in favor of limiting the choice to breed, as Zzelda points out. I think that we need to consider our species as a whole, as well as the environment that we live in, and legislate our breeding so that we don't destroy everything. The good of the many--in this case, everyone--should outweigh the desires of some. I used to have a more live-and-let-live approach to breeding but that was when I was thinking of it in isolation (who am I to tell someone else what to do?). When I consider it within the context of our limited resources, it quickly becomes clear that rampant breeding is completely unethical, and even breeding once is quite ethically dubious because you do so knowing that other people are overbreeding.

I wouldn't mind if we became extinct as a species, but I wouldn't classify myself as anti-natalist because my views on humans stem more from environmental concern than the ethical position that all life leads to death and suffering and should therefore be avoided. Also, I'm pretty neutral on other species, or even in favor of saving them.

Woah, we have a lot of similarities in our thinking. I realize that my anti-natalist views are extreme (my anti-natalism views stem more from issues of consent than from suffering/death issues i.e. I take issue with bringing people into existence because the unborn person has no say in the matter), but I hope someday we can at least implement a parenting license. Otherwise, we are screwed. One advantage of death is that I won't, hopefully, be around when the shit really hits the fan.

JayJay, interesting, I hadn't thought about it from the sovereignty angle. I find consent an interesting question, although my thinking has focused on human systems: I sometimes wonder to what extent humans can be legitimately considered guilty of violating allegiances which were inherited with birth rather than deliberately accepted (examples: apostasy in those who were born into the religion, and treason committed by someone who acquired citizenship through birth).

I hadn't realized that there were several different approaches to anti-natalism. I think it's an interesting philosophy, although it isn't mine. Of course, I'm always in favor of people actually thinking about philosophical issues--there seems to be precious little of that in the world.

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yurble
JayJay, interesting, I hadn't thought about it from the sovereignty angle. I find consent an interesting question, although my thinking has focused on human systems: I sometimes wonder to what extent humans can be legitimately considered guilty of violating allegiances which were inherited with birth rather than deliberately accepted (examples: apostasy in those who were born into the religion, and treason committed by someone who acquired citizenship through birth).

I hadn't realized that there were several different approaches to anti-natalism. I think it's an interesting philosophy, although it isn't mine. Of course, I'm always in favor of people actually thinking about philosophical issues--there seems to be precious little of that in the world.

Exactly. I find your points of view fascinating.

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kidlesskim

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Miss_Hannigan
Where the fuck is Zatoth? This is her favorite subject!

Probably at a heavy metal concert or art class or something.

I see this. I dunno why y'all feel the need to invoke my name.

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zatoth

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kidlesskim

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Miss_Hannigan
Where the fuck is Zatoth? This is her favorite subject!

Probably at a heavy metal concert or art class or something.

I see this. I dunno why y'all feel the need to invoke my name.

I don't get it, either.

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JayJay

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zatoth

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kidlesskim

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Miss_Hannigan
Where the fuck is Zatoth? This is her favorite subject!

Probably at a heavy metal concert or art class or something.

I see this. I dunno why y'all feel the need to invoke my name.

I don't get it, either.

the minute i say something, they are gonna bitch like stiffed whores that i am somehow interested in oppressing their freedom to be child free or some shit. yet, if i don't say anything, they want me to. go figure...