Awww *c'mon*! It's the BUNNY RANCH!!

Okaaayyy, where's the phrase I'm expecting? ::scans the column:: Yup, there it is

Reid said, "parents don't want their children to look out of a school bus and see a brothel. Or live in a state with the wrong kind of red lights."

"So let's have an adult conversation about an adult subject," he said [immediately after the previous statement].

What's so adult about Won't someone please think of the chyyyyyllllldreeeen as your rationale for every action? An adult discussion on prostitution might discuss whether or not it perpetuates sexism or takes advantage of vulnerable women--in short, it would involve a discussion of the impact on adults.

I have never understood why it's illegal to sell something you can give away. IF it were legal, it could be regulated (health wise and eliminating horrible pimp-wise) and taxed. And then some of these SAHM and welfare whores could do the only thing they knwo how to do while 'shnuggie' is napping and Biff is off at work, or claim that they are 'donating their professional services' to their husbands. Women get paid to be surrogates, if they made this legal, they could get way better business.

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Dorisan
Okaaayyy, where's the phrase I'm expecting? ::scans the column:: Yup, there it is

Reid said, "parents don't want their children to look out of a school bus and see a brothel. Or live in a state with the wrong kind of red lights."

No, they want to look out of a bus window and see a man shoot a cow.

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think_about_it
I have never understood why it's illegal to sell something you can give away. IF it were legal, it could be regulated (health wise and eliminating horrible pimp-wise) and taxed. And then some of these SAHM and welfare whores could do the only thing they knwo how to do while 'shnuggie' is napping and Biff is off at work, or claim that they are 'donating their professional services' to their husbands. Women get paid to be surrogates, if they made this legal, they could get way better business.

I'd argue that most of dating and marriage in fact, ARE prostitution. Both parties are exchanging something of value for sex.

Do you think that if guys' girlfriends were abstaining from sex, they would be invited to dinners? World Series games? vacations?

And it can go the other way as well.

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StudioFiftyFour
I'd argue that most of dating and marriage in fact, ARE prostitution. Both parties are exchanging something of value for sex.

Do you think that if guys' girlfriends were abstaining from sex, they would be invited to dinners? World Series games? vacations?

And it can go the other way as well.

You've made this argument before. Isn't it a little off-topic when the subject is prostitution, not marriage? And what exactly do you mean by 'the other way'--that a woman can also require sex in exchange for financially supporting a man, or that a woman will refuse sex if the man isn't buying her shit?

I have plenty of contempt for the woman who treats sex as a bargaining chip, and refuses to take financial responsibility for herself. I also have plenty of contempt for the sort of man who is willing to enter into a relationship with someone who is in a position of financial dependence in exchange for regular sex--there cannot be equality in that relationship. But I also think it is possible for individuals to engage in a mutually beneficial relationship based on strong emotions, wherein it might be mutually decided that one person will provide income and the other will contribute in non-financial ways. From the outside looking in, I can't say what sort of relationship a couple has.

I personally wouldn't want to be in a relationship where both people weren't contributing financially, but that's my personal preference. I also wouldn't be involved with someone who felt sex was either something to be rationed or a right.

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StudioFiftyFour

I'd argue that most of dating and marriage in fact, ARE prostitution. Both parties are exchanging something of value for sex.

Do you think that if guys' girlfriends were abstaining from sex, they would be invited to dinners? World Series games? vacations?

And it can go the other way as well.

For that matter, anyone who has a job that pays money is a prostitute. Working is selling your body for money. You can't do any job without a body. I've never heard of any company that pulls their talent pool from the ether, thus you are selling not only your mind, but your body to do the job. Taken too far, the argument about prostitution can be ridiculous.

It's your hell; you rot in it!

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yurble

You've made this argument before. Isn't it a little off-topic when the subject is prostitution, not marriage? And what exactly do you mean by 'the other way'--that a woman can also require sex in exchange for financially supporting a man, or that a woman will refuse sex if the man isn't buying her shit?

I have plenty of contempt for the woman who treats sex as a bargaining chip, and refuses to take financial responsibility for herself. I also have plenty of contempt for the sort of man who is willing to enter into a relationship with someone who is in a position of financial dependence in exchange for regular sex--there cannot be equality in that relationship. But I also think it is possible for individuals to engage in a mutually beneficial relationship based on strong emotions, wherein it might be mutually decided that one person will provide income and the other will contribute in non-financial ways. From the outside looking in, I can't say what sort of relationship a couple has.

I personally wouldn't want to be in a relationship where both people weren't contributing financially, but that's my personal preference. I also wouldn't be involved with someone who felt sex was either something to be rationed or a right.

Yurble,

Let me first preface this by saying that I do not believe that prostitution should be illegal. Any person of legal age should be able to do basically whatever they want with their own body so long as it causes no harm to the others around them.

To answer your question...

Both ways! Men have the ability to sexually exploit women and women have the ability to sexually exploit men. Is that an ideal interpersonal relationship that will result in deep, personal feelings? I don't think it is. Should people be allowed to engage in a sex-for-money/gifts relationship? If they wish to do so, I don't see what benefit or ethical obligation the government would have in stepping in and preventing them from doing so.

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reaperess

For that matter, anyone who has a job that pays money is a prostitute. Working is selling your body for money. You can't do any job without a body. I've never heard of any company that pulls their talent pool from the ether, thus you are selling not only your mind, but your body to do the job. Taken too far, the argument about prostitution can be ridiculous.

I think you're umbrella for "prostitution" is too big. By definition, prostitution is selling your body for sex or some sort of cause that would be frowned upon by society. It's basically a sex-for-money relationship. It doesn't cover professions that are outside of that realm.

I think my case holds water. I contend that sex is a big part of dating--and it can be for both men and women. If the sex stops, the relationship withers and dies.

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StudioFiftyFour

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reaperess

For that matter, anyone who has a job that pays money is a prostitute. Working is selling your body for money. You can't do any job without a body. I've never heard of any company that pulls their talent pool from the ether, thus you are selling not only your mind, but your body to do the job. Taken too far, the argument about prostitution can be ridiculous.

I think you're umbrella for "prostitution" is too big. By definition, prostitution is selling your body for sex or some sort of cause that would be frowned upon by society. It's basically a sex-for-money relationship. It doesn't cover professions that are outside of that realm.

I think my case holds water. I contend that sex is a big part of dating--and it can be for both men and women. If the sex stops, the relationship withers and dies.

My comment was basically food for thought, as was yours, I presume. It was an argument brought up by my philosophy professor many moons ago (when I was but a young Reaperess). I don't see working as prostitution. Although, one of Oxford's definitions of prostitution is "the unworthy or corrupt use of one's talents for personal or financial gain." So, there are some "normal" jobs that fit this definition.

It's your hell; you rot in it!

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StudioFiftyFour

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reaperess

For that matter, anyone who has a job that pays money is a prostitute. Working is selling your body for money. You can't do any job without a body. I've never heard of any company that pulls their talent pool from the ether, thus you are selling not only your mind, but your body to do the job. Taken too far, the argument about prostitution can be ridiculous.

I think you're umbrella for "prostitution" is too big. By definition, prostitution is selling your body for sex or some sort of cause that would be frowned upon by society. It's basically a sex-for-money relationship. It doesn't cover professions that are outside of that realm.

I think my case holds water. I contend that sex is a big part of dating--and it can be for both men and women. If the sex stops, the relationship withers and dies.

Dating does not have to involve sex. Dating does not equate to a relationship. None of that has to do with prostitution anyway unless someone is prepared to have sex for a steak.

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StudioFiftyFour
Both ways! Men have the ability to sexually exploit women and women have the ability to sexually exploit men. Is that an ideal interpersonal relationship that will result in deep, personal feelings? I don't think it is. Should people be allowed to engage in a sex-for-money/gifts relationship? If they wish to do so, I don't see what benefit or ethical obligation the government would have in stepping in and preventing them from doing so.

Fair enough; I agree that both women and men can be sexually exploitive. I think that prostitution degrades both participants, but so do many other things which people can do to themselves, such as engaging in relationships where sex and money are used as forms of power, so I see no reason for it to be illegal provided that there are safeguards in place to prevent human trafficking and the spread of disease.

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StudioFiftyFour
Men have the ability to sexually exploit women and women have the ability to sexually exploit men. Is that an ideal interpersonal relationship that will result in deep, personal feelings? I don't think it is.

I was going to post this article as something of a tangent to the thread, but your comment, Studio, makes it more in conjunction

Why young men have the upper hand in bed, even when they're failing in life.

I was particularly struck by this sentence

Women's "erotic capital," as Catherine Hakim of the London School of Economics has dubbed it, can still be traded for attention, a job, perhaps a boyfriend, and certainly all the sex she wants, but it can't assure her love and lifelong commitment. Not in this market. It's no surprise that the percentage of 25- to 34-year-olds who are married has shrunk by an average of 1 percent each year this past decade.

I'm afraid it sounds like the old hooter my grandma used to spout about "today's kids" might be coming to fruition: "why buy the cow when you are getting the milk for free?" :lips

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Dorisan
I was going to post this article as something of a tangent to the thread, but your comment, Studio, makes it more central

Why young men have the upper hand in bed, even when they're failing in life.

I was particularly struck by this sentence

Women's "erotic capital," as Catherine Hakim of the London School of Economics has dubbed it, can still be traded for attention, a job, perhaps a boyfriend, and certainly all the sex she wants, but it can't assure her love and lifelong commitment. Not in this market. It's no surprise that the percentage of 25- to 34-year-olds who are married has shrunk by an average of 1 percent each year this past decade.

I'm afraid it sounds like the old hooter my grandma used to spout about "today's kids" might be coming to fruition: "why buy the cow when you are getting the milk for free?" :lips

I've read about this before, and I find the premise objectionable. Why should women necessarily be seeking marriage? Women are also able to "get the milk for free." Who really suffers? People who like sex and who don't see it as something which can be withheld for love or lifelong commitment benefit, especially the women, who would have been unable to do that in the past. As a woman who likes sex, I'm damn glad that I don't have to get married to have it, or withhold it for love. (And still I've had several offers of marriage, when, according to this article, I should have no erotic capital whatsoever.)

People who consider love and commitment necessary for sex can still seek out a partner who shares these values. They may have fewer options available than when everyone was forced into that mode of behavior whether it suited them or not, but it isn't as if life guarantees a compatible partner. The problem comes when people do not stick with their preferences but compromise because they fear that otherwise they'll be alone (frequently this fear is also linked to a desire to reproduce). I'm afraid I don't have much sympathy for people who will make themselves miserable in order to avoid being single.

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yurble

I've read about this before, and I find the premise objectionable. Why should women necessarily be seeking marriage? Women are also able to "get the milk for free." Who really suffers? People who like sex and who don't see it as something which can be withheld for love or lifelong commitment benefit, especially the women, who would have been unable to do that in the past. As a woman who likes sex, I'm damn glad that I don't have to get married to have it, or withhold it for love. (And still I've had several offers of marriage, when, according to this article, I should have no erotic capital whatsoever.)

People who consider love and commitment necessary for sex can still seek out a partner who shares these values. They may have fewer options available than when everyone was forced into that mode of behavior whether it suited them or not, but it isn't as if life guarantees a compatible partner. The problem comes when people do not stick with their preferences but compromise because they fear that otherwise they'll be alone (frequently this fear is also linked to a desire to reproduce). I'm afraid I don't have much sympathy for people who will make themselves miserable in order to avoid being single.

Yurble,

Your responses are always so thoughtful and pragmatic. I enjoy reading them.

-54

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yurble
The problem comes when people do not stick with their preferences but compromise because they fear that otherwise they'll be alone (frequently this fear is also linked to a desire to reproduce). I'm afraid I don't have much sympathy for people who will make themselves miserable in order to avoid being single.

Few do.

Maybe it comes from reading the trainwreck boards: MIL stories, Etiquettehell, Miss Manners, and the like; but it seems the numbers are falling on that side. I suppose a "I'm in a satisfying, equitable relationship" board would be boring to read, so there are few ways to calculate how many people are in good relationships versus the losers; the fact that there are so many advice and venting boards makes it seem that the + vs - relationships are rare.

I guess I see prostitution as more direct--the firm exchange of money for sexual favors, and it being agreed upon by both parties. I am lucky in the sense that I am happily single, and in a committed relationship with a man for a decade.
I have no problem buying him dinner once in awhile, and treating him like my boytoy when I feel like.
Sometimes it's the other way around. I know some people judge us when we go out, because he's much older than I am.
Addressing the issue, why would they live so damned close to the "Red Light District" if they don't want their precious Chyllldrruunnn to be anywhere near it?

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Dorisan
Few do.

Maybe it comes from reading the trainwreck boards: MIL stories, Etiquettehell, Miss Manners, and the like; but it seems the numbers are falling on that side. I suppose a "I'm in a satisfying, equitable relationship" board would be boring to read, so there are few ways to calculate how many people are in good relationships versus the losers; the fact that there are so many advice and venting boards makes it seem that the + vs - relationships are rare.

The life script strikes again.

I really don't know how many people do this, either, but, like you, I suspect the numbers are fairly high. 'Dying alone' seems to be a big breeder fear, so I imagine the thought of going through life alone is pretty damn terrifying to the average person. What people seem to forget is that there are no guarantees, so you're better off conquering your fears than avoiding them. You're fairly likely to end up divorced these days, or you could be widowed at a relatively young age (I've met several women in their 80s who have been alone for 30+ years).


StudioFiftyFour: Thanks