Moos Lobby for Birth Certificates for Loaves Born Dead:wtf

http://www.stillnomore.org/main.htm

Once you enter the main page of The Stillbirth society, click on number 2 on the left under "stillborn certificates" to view this topic, although there are MANY more. I am shocked at just how deeply Moos feel about feeling entitled to have their Moo-Hood recognized and revered by all, even when the loaf is born dead.


Excerpts, but this is most of it

"Why We Need A Certificate of Still Birth"

1) "..........We get to say hello and goodbye in the same breath. Instead of a bright future, all we're left with is shattered dreams of what might have been........ we're given a fetal death certificate. No baby to take home. No reward for the months of waiting. No acknowledgement for our having given birth.

2) When we discover that what once lived within us is dead we want to run away. But we can't, just yet. First we must deliver our baby, just like the mothers of live babies do. We must endure the pain. Just like mothers of live babies. And when it's over we get to hold our baby, just like mothers of live babies do. But then we have to give our baby back and go home to an empty nursery.

3) Contrary to what the pundits say, it is possible to fool Mother Nature. She doesn't know our baby died, and so she dutifully produces milk to nourish and protect that, which is no longer living. She knows we gave birth. We know we gave birth. But the state says not. Stillbirth mothers are not yet acknowledged as mothers by most states, but we're working to change that.

4) Birth is a process that all mothers endure; live or "still" is the outcome of that process. If we recognize a live birth, why would the state not recognize a stillbirth? Is it to punish the mother whose baby is born dead? Is she not somehow worthy? Did she fail somehow? That's what she thinks. If we give a the mother of a live birth a "Certificate of Live Birth" why would we not give the mother of a stillborn baby a Certificate of Still Birth? Or a Certificate of Birth Resulting in Stillbirth. That's the reality of the event!

5) All mothers give birth; only the outcomes of those births differ. To deny a woman a "Certificate" when she fails to produce a living child, is to say that she did not give birth, which is not true. To deny a woman recognition for this seminal event in her life is to deny the event occurred. To deny a woman recognition is to tell her she is a failure. It is an open wound upon her soul that will never heal unless and until her sacrifice is recognized; just as live birth mothers are recognized.

6) On August 9, 2001 in Phoenix, Arizona, Sharon Arnold, wife of NSS Founder Richard K. Olsen, and Joanne Cacciatore-Garard, founder of the MISS Foundation and the author of the MISSing Angels Bill, were presented the first ever Certificates of Birth Resulting in Still Birth to be issued in the United States. The state of Arizona has led the way by acknowledging that these brave women and others in the state gave birth, and that their daughters, Camille and Cheyenne, though born still, did for one brief and glorious moment pass through this world. Your state should recognize you and your babies too, because all our children matter.


-) They are ALREADY GIVEN a fetal DEATH certificate! If it never lived, then how can they get a birth certificate because it has to be ALIVE at some point to get a live birth certificate. I am confused as to what they want. Do they want simply a certificate to read they gave BIRTH to a dead baby? At what level of gestation should these be given and WHY? For what reason" They can't have life insurance on a loaf not yet born, they can't enroll it in daycare or sign up for Medicaid or get it a social security number.

So, I fail to understand the reasoning behind it if they DO get a death certificate where they get to give it a name and all that ANYWAY. It seems the sole purpose of this nonsense is they want recognition for having given birth. Does a "fetal death certificate" not already prove that? UNBELIEVABLE. The birth and death statistic offices will have a difficult time dealing with THIS bullshit if they have to have a birth AND death certificate for every fucking miscarriage and dead baby sluiced.:smn

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If YOU are the "exception" to what I am saying, then why does my commentary bother you so much?
I don't hate your kids, I HATE YOU!

That read to me like they want a certificate and a pat on the head for having had a baby.

I didn't really get a vibe of any sadness about the loss - just indignation that other people aren't saying 'Well done' to them. Once again, it's all about them being coddled.

A woman at work was pregnant with twins, and they died at about 26 weeks, so she had to deliver them. She didn't want to talk about it, or be reminded of it. To me, that's the normal repsonse. She was just upset about the loss of her babies, not the loss of the attention she would have got had she had them. That's what this post smacks of to me, 'My baby died so I'm not getting the attention I wanted and waited for.'

"...3) Contrary to what the pundits say, it is possible to fool Mother Nature. She doesn't know our baby died, and so she dutifully produces milk to nourish and protect that, which is no longer living. She knows we gave birth. We know we gave birth. But the state says not. Stillbirth mothers are not yet acknowledged as mothers by most states, but we're working to change that.

4) Birth is a process that all mothers endure; live or "still" is the outcome of that process. If we recognize a live birth, why would the state not recognize a stillbirth? Is it to punish the mother whose baby is born dead? Is she not somehow worthy? Did she fail somehow? That's what she thinks. If we give a the mother of a live birth a "Certificate of Live Birth" why would we not give the mother of a stillborn baby a Certificate of Still Birth? Or a Certificate of Birth Resulting in Stillbirth. That's the reality of the event!

5) All mothers give birth; only the outcomes of those births differ. To deny a woman a "Certificate" when she fails to produce a living child, is to say that she did not give birth, which is not true. To deny a woman recognition for this seminal event in her life is to deny the event occurred. To deny a woman recognition is to tell her she is a failure. It is an open wound upon her soul that will never heal unless and until her sacrifice is recognized; just as live birth mothers are recognized...."


This bullshit right here in the middle of it pretty much tells the story. They want RECOGNITION for having given birth. I read a little further after I originally posted this and they DO have a cut off time which is outlined in their definition of what a stillbirth is:"Stillbirth is defined as the intrauterine death and subsequent delivery of a developing infant that occurs beyond 20 completed weeks of gestation. (A loss prior to 20 weeks is termed a miscarriage or "pregnancy loss".)"

So, even though many of these would have NOT be considered viable pregnancies at 5 months gestation, they want to be "recognized" for what amounts to a D&C in many cases and/or a doctor assisting them in emptying the products of conception from their uterus. If they succeed in this on a wide scale, they will have successfully made it clear where THEIR inpigness falls on the Hierarchy Scale of Pregnancy Loss™ within the Moo-Wars bunch. "Yes but do YOU have a stillbirth certificate? If NOT, you simply had a miscarriage and MY loss is greater than yours!":BS.

Traditionally and I happen to agree with it, a "stillbirth" has always meant a FULL TERM baby who for whatever reason, was born dead but who otherwise would have likely lived on it's own if not for whatever complication. NEVER has a 5 month old fetus been considered able to live on it's own, even with assistance, and there are only but a handful of cases where they lived for any length of time at 6 months gestation. I believe the record for survival of a preemie was allegedly 21 weeks and that is EXTREMELY rare. They want recognition for births which are nothing more than miscarriages and I expect to see a LOT of them letting the dead fetus stay inside them for however long it takes to get that fucking "certificate".:smn

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If YOU are the "exception" to what I am saying, then why does my commentary bother you so much?
I don't hate your kids, I HATE YOU!

What the fuck. Are they going to frame it and put it on the wall? Point at it and say, "My cooter almost works." Or are they going to walk around with the certificate wrapped up in a blanket like a baby?

Not giving a certificate of birth isn't to deny that the baby existed or that woman didn't push it out, it's saying that it wasn't alive. It was D.O.A. which gets you a death certificate.

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kidlesskim
If they succeed in this on a wide scale, they will have successfully made it clear where THEIR inpigness falls on the Hierarchy Scale of Pregnancy Loss™ within the Moo-Wars bunch. "Yes but do YOU have a stillbirth certificate? If NOT, you simply had a miscarriage and MY loss is greater than yours!":BS.................................... They want recognition for births which are nothing more than miscarriages and I expect to see a LOT of them letting the dead fetus stay inside them for however long it takes to get that fucking "certificate".:smn

Absolutly agree there.

It's all about the show, the amount of fuss other people make of it. Not how they feel. It's all about them, but only how they are seen through the eyes of others.

Since it does seem the majority of breeders do it in the first place due to what other people think, it's hardly surprising.

a very close friend went into labor at 6 months and the fetus was stillborn. she and her husband were devastated, because they wanted to be parents, not to be rewarded for having sprogged. they did not insist on a birth certificate, take the fetus out for a picnic and a sleepover, publish photos in the obituary section, etc. they grieved privately, went to counseling, planted a rose bush in their back yard in memorium, and moved on. they now have a healthy son and are great parents.

it makes me wonder why these crazy moos get pregnant in the first place - is it to have a family or to get attention? hmmmmm......

________________________________________________________

L'enfer, c'est les autres.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/22/us/22stillbirth.html?pagewanted=all



Apparently, there are 19 states that have acquiesced to the Moos and are giving out these "stillbirth" certificates. I ran across some of the images of state certificates and they clearly say on it things like, "This is not a certificate of a LIVE birth" or otherwise make it clear it's a stillbirth, but obviously it's what they want. The article above addresses some of the issues associated with this nonsense both 'for" and against.:BS


"The experience of giving birth and death at the exact same time is something you don’t understand unless you’ve gone through it,” Ms. Edber said. “The day before I was released from the hospital, the doctor came in with the paperwork for a fetal death certificate, and said, ‘I’m sorry, but this is the only document you’ll receive.’ In my heart, it didn’t make sense. I was in labor. I pushed, I had stitches, my breast milk came in, just like any other mother. And we deserved more than a death certificate.” No one "deserves" a life OR death certificate FFS! It's a vital statistic record, not a fucking Olympic Gold medal!

So Ms. Edber joined with others who had experienced stillbirth to push California legislators to pass a bill allowing parents to receive a certificate of birth resulting in stillbirth.Which is NO DIFFERENT than a fetal death certificate..

But politically, the birth-certificate laws, often referred to as “Missing Angels” bills, occupy uncertain territory, skirting the abortion debate while implicitly raising the question of fetal personhood. True and a fetus is NOT a person any more than a seed is a tomato.

Last month, Gov. Bill Richardson of New Mexico vetoed legislation that would have granted stillborn birth certificates. Mr. Richardson, a Democrat who is running for president, did not mention abortion, but said “confusion and potential fraud” could result from creating two documents — the fetal death certificate and the birth certificate resulting in stillbirth — for the same event. I agree and expect to see them used as a way to get welfare and also an easy avenue for creating false identities.

Those who support the stillbirth certificates say fraud would be impossible because the certificates make clear that there is no living child. Not really, because from the looks of some of them I saw the images on, they look EXACTLY like a LIVE birth certificate except where it says, "STILLbirth" and appear easy to alter if that's the intent.

Generally, the bills are retroactive, so parents can get a certificate even for long-ago stillbirths. Parents who request certificates must pay a small fee, and can record a name or leave the name line blank. Oh great. Moos can demand these for miscarriages dating back to the fucking 17th century.

“I thought about suicide every day after Cheyenne’s birth,” Ms. Cacciatore said. “I loved this baby; I went through all the physical pain of delivering her. I had her baby book prepared, with the place for her birth certificate.” BIG DEAL. Just paste the death certificate in it's place! The thing was born dead and NOTHING and certainly no PC worded certificate will change that.

When the state office of vital records mailed a death certificate instead, she said, “I literally dropped it.” She added, “When I called and asked for my daughter’s birth certificate, the woman asked how she died, and when I told her, she said I didn’t have a baby, I had a fetus, and I couldn’t get a birth certificate.” When you do NOT produce a live baby, then you DID have a "fetus". I don't think they should even get DEATH certificates unless the damned thing was full term.

Yet, the concept of birth certificates for stillbirth raises complicated questions. In heated Web discussions, some people cite the parents’ deep need for validation while others say birth certificates are legal documents, not memory trinkets or prizes for enduring birthing.That's my feeling on it too.

“Any way that acknowledges the child is important,” said Catherine Shandler, of Montclair, N.J., who lost her daughter, Emma, three years ago, two weeks before the due date. Emma remains part of the family, Ms. Shandler said, a presence she will someday discuss with her son, Benjamin, 20 months old, and a daughter, India, born Saturday. It is often hard to know what to say, she said. Well, Emma's stillbirth didn't seem to slow her down any as far as continuing on her loaf shitting campaign. Why is it hard to know what to say? IF anyone asks, but why would they I'd have to wonder UNLESS she brings it up, simply say, "We had a little girl we named Emma, but she was stillborn".

“When you say you had a stillbirth, some people can’t wrap their head around the fact that there was a baby,” said Ms. Shandler, who said she supports abortion rights. When people ask if she has children, she said, sometimes she mentions Emma, and sometimes she does not. But, she added, “I want to acknowledge that Emma existed.” Emma can be acknowledged without a stillbirth certificate. I don't know why she thinks people can't wrap their head around a stillbirth having been a baby born dead. What they can't probably handle well is knowing what to say about it which basically, "I am sorry", which is about all anyone can say ANYWAY regardless if Emma came out the hole dead or was run over by a bus at age 8, but the Moos just get less attention and sympathy if it didn't actually ever live

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If YOU are the "exception" to what I am saying, then why does my commentary bother you so much?
I don't hate your kids, I HATE YOU!

A "Certificate" is going to change the outcome - how?

This is going to help - how?

I will say that I've never understood ceremony, certificates, etc, I consider it all extraneous and a waste of time.

I cannot believe that people are wasting time on this bullshit and have enlisted gov reps to waste time on it too. Such officials should be taken to task for frittering away the tax payers money on frivolous issues.

Bah. Print your own fucking "Certificate" and stop wasting officials' time.

Do these women think that a birth certificate is some kind of award granted to mothers? It's not for the mother, it's for the person born. It's a fucking legal document establishing a person's identity. What's the point of establishing an identity for a person who never was?

Birth certificates are not fucking awards.

Shouldnt these women be mourning the loss, helping the father with his grief, helping other women or doing anything besides griping about a piece pg paper.

Give me a break.

Yes, a stillbirth is difficult. They don't do a section on these patients, they induce labor with oxytocin, but keep them super drugged up the entire time. They end up with episiotomies, milk let down, etc etc. It definitely does suck for them. However, you don't need a REWARD for going through the entire shitty process. It doesn't make it better, and it certainly doesn't make it go away, or the baby come back to life.

That's what I see this as. A reward for having endured the labor process and not getting the desired end result. Is it horrible? Yes, it is. Do you deserve a pat on the back? No, you don't. You deserve a referral to the appropriate agency for therapy, genetic counseling if determined from the autopsy, and a sympathy card.

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kidlesskim
http://www.stillnomore.org/main.htm

Once you enter the main page of The Stillbirth society, click on number 2 on the left under "stillborn certificates" to view this topic, although there are MANY more. I am shocked at just how deeply Moos feel about feeling entitled to have their Moo-Hood recognized and revered by all, even when the loaf is born dead.


Excerpts, but this is most of it

"Why We Need A Certificate of Still Birth"

1) "..........We get to say hello and goodbye in the same breath. Instead of a bright future, all we're left with is shattered dreams of what might have been........ we're given a fetal death certificate. No baby to take home. No reward for the months of waiting. No acknowledgement for our having given birth.

2) When we discover that what once lived within us is dead we want to run away. But we can't, just yet. First we must deliver our baby, just like the mothers of live babies do. We must endure the pain. Just like mothers of live babies. And when it's over we geJt to hold our baby, just like mothers of live babies do. But then we have to give our baby back and go home to an empty nursery.

3) Contrary to what the pundits say, it is possible to fool Mother Nature. She doesn't know our baby died, and so she dutifully produces milk to nourish and protect that, which is no longer living. She knows we gave birth. We know we gave birth. But the state says not. Stillbirth mothers are not yet acknowledged as mothers by most states, but we're working to change that.

4) Birth is a process that all mothers endure; live or "still" is the outcome of that process. If we recognize a live birth, why would the state not recognize a stillbirth? Is it to punish the mother whose baby is born dead? Is she not somehow worthy? Did she fail somehow? That's what she thinks. If we give a the mother of a live birth a "Certificate of Live Birth" why would we not give the mother of a stillborn baby a Certificate of Still Birth? Or a Certificate of Birth Resulting in Stillbirth. That's the reality of the event!

5) All mothers give birth; only the outcomes of those births differ. To deny a woman a "Certificate" when she fails to produce a living child, is to say that she did not give birth, which is not true. To deny a woman recognition for this seminal event in her life is to deny the event occurred. To deny a woman recognition is to tell her she is a failure. It is an open wound upon her soul that will never heal unless and until her sacrifice is recognized; just as live birth mothers are recognized.

6) On August 9, 2001 in Phoenix, Arizona, Sharon Arnold, wife of NSS Founder Richard K. Olsen, and Joanne Cacciatore-Garard, founder of the MISS Foundation and the author of the MISSing Angels Bill, were presented the first ever Certificates of Birth Resulting in Still Birth to be issued in the United States. The state of Arizona has led the way by acknowledging that these brave women and others in the state gave birth, and that their daughters, Camille and Cheyenne, though born still, did for one brief and glorious moment pass through this world. Your state should recognize you and your babies too, because all our children matter.


-) They are ALREADY GIVEN a fetal DEATH certificate! If it never lived, then how can they get a birth certificate because it has to be ALIVE at some point to get a live birth certificate. I am confused as to what they want. Do they want simply a certificate to read they gave BIRTH to a dead baby? At what level of gestation should these be given and WHY? For what reason" They can't have life insurance on a loaf not yet born, they can't enroll it in daycare or sign up for Medicaid or get it a social security number.

So, I fail to understand the reasoning behind it if they DO get a death certificate where they get to give it a name and all that ANYWAY. It seems the sole purpose of this nonsense is they want recognition for having given birth. Does a "fetal death certificate" not already prove that? UNBELIEVABLE. The birth and death statistic offices will have a difficult time dealing with THIS bullshit if they have to have a birth AND death certificate for every fucking miscarriage and dead baby sluiced.:smn

Is it me, or are they sounding more like a kid who did not get a trophy for showing up? A birth certificate is not a trophy for getting pregnant. It is sad the kid did not survive, but there are reasons you don't get a birth certificate with a dead fetus.

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zatoth
Is it me, or are they sounding more like a kid who did not get a trophy for showing up? A birth certificate is not a trophy for getting pregnant. It is sad the kid did not survive, but there are reasons you don't get a birth certificate with a dead fetus.

No, that's exactly what it is. They want their trophy for participating in the Breeder's Cup race; that they didn't make it out of the starting gate is a trifling matter...

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Snark Shark

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notmuchtosay

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zatoth
Is it me, or are they sounding more like a kid who did not get a trophy for showing up? A birth certificate is not a trophy for getting pregnant. It is sad the kid did not survive, but there are reasons you don't get a birth certificate with a dead fetus.

No, that's exactly what it is. They want their trophy for participating in the Breeder's Cup race; that they didn't make it out of the starting gate is a trifling matter...

do they finish higher in the race for having LIVING twins? do they finish higher or lower if they have STILLBORN twins vs/ have ONE stillborn fetus?

man, breeders lives are so complicated, and yet SO VERY STUPID.

Maybe we should let them have a DEAD BABY OLYMPICS. Fetus Tossing! Relay-Fetus Races! Fetus-Lifting! All the MOOS with DEAD FETII can get LOTS OF AWARDS AND CERTIFICATES!

There actually IS a published scale of Moo Hierarchy of Kid Loss™, but of course it's an unspoken one among the Moos. It can be easily observed and verified though by simply looking around you at ones you have known personally and by public example of the thousands of Moo debates, articles, blogs, movies, documentaries, and internet postings about how one loss basically trumps another. It's like their scale of Hierarchy of Birth™ ,only it's for deaths instead. It's based on the overall amount of sympathy, attention, time and degree allowed for mourning based on societal perception and mostly a general opinion found among the Moos themselves. It's a social studies concept created by a Bratfree member based on numerous Moo observations.

I don't have time to publish the "study" in it's entirety, but below is a brief excerpt of examples of what types of kid death trump another:

Moo Hierarchy of Kid Death™
(in order of highest to lowest)

A good rule of thumb is to remember that bio always trumps adopted or step, under twelve always trumps teen, and minor child always trumps adult child. Pregnant adult daughter death trumps adult son death with pregnant wife, childed adult child death trumps unchilded adult child death, and the older the adult child the less value it's death has on the scale. "Pre-born" has it's own trump order too which are mentioned below:

1)Murder of child under the age of 12 by a verified stranger abduction
2)Childhood disease resulting in death (there are various levels where preventable or treatable has less value than say, unexpected and untreatable rare childhood cancers that would trump an unvaccinated Measles death, for instance )
3)Childhood accidents(Again, preventable is worth less than freak accident, for instance)
4)Stillborn and otherwise healthy full term baby
5)Pregnancy loss at 5-8 months gestation or third trimester
6)Pregnancy loss at 2-5 months gestation or second trimester
7)Pregnancy loss under 3 months gestation or first trimester


This is only a brief look into the "study" as there are many subsets, categories, and variables such as whether the Moo was married or a single Moo, how many kids she already had, and her race, socio-economic level, legal status, age, etc.............It gets rather complicated.

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If YOU are the "exception" to what I am saying, then why does my commentary bother you so much?
I don't hate your kids, I HATE YOU!

And as well all know, any of those deaths trump the death of a spouse, one or both parents (no matter your age when they died), a sibling, or grandparent/aunt/uncle/cousin.

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kidlesskim

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Snark Shark

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notmuchtosay

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zatoth
Is it me, or are they sounding more like a kid who did not get a trophy for showing up? A birth certificate is not a trophy for getting pregnant. It is sad the kid did not survive, but there are reasons you don't get a birth certificate with a dead fetus.

No, that's exactly what it is. They want their trophy for participating in the Breeder's Cup race; that they didn't make it out of the starting gate is a trifling matter...

do they finish higher in the race for having LIVING twins? do they finish higher or lower if they have STILLBORN twins vs/ have ONE stillborn fetus?

man, breeders lives are so complicated, and yet SO VERY STUPID.

Maybe we should let them have a DEAD BABY OLYMPICS. Fetus Tossing! Relay-Fetus Races! Fetus-Lifting! All the MOOS with DEAD FETII can get LOTS OF AWARDS AND CERTIFICATES!

There actually IS a published scale of Moo Hierarchy of Kid Loss™, but of course it's an unspoken one among the Moos. It can be easily observed and verified though by simply looking around you at ones you have known personally and by public example of the thousands of Moo debates, articles, blogs, movies, documentaries, and internet postings about how one loss basically trumps another. It's like their scale of Hierarchy of Birth™ ,only it's for deaths instead. It's based on the overall amount of sympathy, attention, time and degree allowed for mourning based on societal perception and mostly a general opinion found among the Moos themselves. It's a social studies concept created by a Bratfree member based on numerous Moo observations.

I don't have time to publish the "study" in it's entirety, but below is a brief excerpt of examples of what types of kid death trump another:

Moo Hierarchy of Kid Death™
(in order of highest to lowest)

A good rule of thumb is to remember that bio always trumps adopted or step, under twelve always trumps teen, and minor child always trumps adult child. Pregnant adult daughter death trumps adult son death with pregnant wife, childed adult child death trumps unchilded adult child death, and the older the adult child the less value it's death has on the scale. "Pre-born" has it's own trump order too which are mentioned below:

1)Murder of child under the age of 12 by a verified stranger abduction
2)Childhood disease resulting in death (there are various levels where preventable or treatable has less value than say, unexpected and untreatable rare childhood cancers that would trump an unvaccinated Measles death, for instance )
3)Childhood accidents(Again, preventable is worth less than freak accident, for instance)
4)Stillborn and otherwise healthy full term baby
5)Pregnancy loss at 5-8 months gestation or third trimester
6)Pregnancy loss at 2-5 months gestation or second trimester
7)Pregnancy loss under 3 months gestation or first trimester


This is only a brief look into the "study" as there are many subsets, categories, and variables such as whether the Moo was married or a single Moo, how many kids she already had, and her race, socio-economic level, legal status, age, etc.............It gets rather complicated.

Holy fuck! They even battle on attention whoring with the dead! I though dead pools for cash were pretty damn sick ( no cash involved is fun though) , but this is just outright sociopathic.


There are assorted reason babies born dead are given certain certificates, one if which I am guessing is because for a long time, birth certificates and death certificates were not cross referenced. I knew a guy once who lost his license for some reason and got another under his dead brother's name. The brother had died as an infant.

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paragon schnitzophonic
And as well all know, any of those deaths trump the death of a spouse, one or both parents (no matter your age when they died), a sibling, or grandparent/aunt/uncle/cousin.

ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!wink

In fact, breeders outright SAY it and they don't mince words when they are saying it to an unchilded person either. "You don't know TRUE grief until you have lost a child" is said SO often, it needs to go on a BINGO card of things to NOT say to the recently bereaved. That, and it's variation which is, "At least you didn't have any children", upon the death of a spouse. We all already know society views a childed person's death more tragic specifically if it was a Moo and especially if it was inpig.

I saw a recent example of the Moo Hierarchy of Kid Death™ on a movie I watched yesterday with Nicole Kidman called, "Rabbit Hole". She had a four y/o run out into the road chasing after his dog get struck and killed. Her mother kept comparing her loss and feelings to how she felt when her brother had died and it visibly upset Kidman's character and festered until she went off on her mom. She basically said she was SICK of her mother comparing her child's death to her brother's death because hers was a little 4 y/o boy chasing a dog when he got killed and the brother was 30 years old, a heroin addict, and had died of an overdose. The mom yells back, "HE WAS STILL MY SON!!!!!".

I'd be willing to bet there isn't a MOO ALIVE who wasn't shaking her head in agreement that the 4 y/o's death trumped the 30 y/o and it would be subconsciously based on four main things: 1)Minor child always trumps adult child 2)One was a perceived preventable death, although it's debatable if she or her husband had simply LATCHED the gate the boy would still be alive 3)The perceived "fault factor" where one was an innocent and the other not and brought his death on himself, although THERE AGAIN, a four y/o SHOULD know better than to bolt out into the street and 4)It's HER loss and therefore more painful than anyone else's.

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If YOU are the "exception" to what I am saying, then why does my commentary bother you so much?
I don't hate your kids, I HATE YOU!

I don't know if it's more amusing or fucked-up the way Moos will try to one-up each other in terms of whose child or clump death is more tragic than someone else's. Yes, it's assumed that their snowflake dying at any age - from conception to age 17 - is going to be more tragic than the death of an adult, but the pissing matches between dead-kid Moos is like watching a passive-aggressive cockfight.

There is no fucking reason for a loaf born dead to have a birth certificate. The child was not born alive, it will not grow up into a sentient being who needs a Social Security number and a name so as to acquire gainful employment, so what's the point? Birthing a living child gives you privileges birthing a dead child does not. It's kinda like how little kids can't do a lot of things until they become adults. And I totally agree that having birth certificates for stillborn loaves can easily open the window for all kinds of fraud (tax, welfare, child support, etc.)

Moos might say they won't exploit their child's death that way, but you know they will. Sorry Moos, but birth certificates are reserved for babies born alive. Sorry your stale loaf doesn't measure up, but that's how shit goes. If you want a birth certificate, have a live baby. If this is allowed, Moos are going to start wanting birth certificates for their two-week-gestation "miscarriages" and soiled pads too. It's best to just ignore the bullshit until the Moos go back to their blogs and STFU.

Here's the meat of this mess:

Yet, the concept of birth certificates for stillbirth raises complicated questions. In heated Web discussions, some people cite the parents’ deep need for validation while others say birth certificates are legal documents, not memory trinkets or prizes for enduring birthing.

I say we start our own "Stlllbirth Certificate" internet business. Send us a picture of your dead loaf and we'll print you a 4-color certificate from a Word template for "World's Greatest Grandma" (Only we'll type "Stillbirth" over the "Grandma")

Hologram stickers are an extra $20

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"[GFG's pregnancy is] kind of like at the stables where that one dumb, ugly-ass mare broke out of her corral one day and got herself screwed by the equally fugly colt that was due to be gelded the same afternoon."- Shiny

".....we're given a fetal death certificate. Which is more than you need for anything OTHER THAN a full term stillbirth. (8-9 months gestation) and even then, there's no legal reason for you to ever NEED one. Clumps have no reason to get a certificate of any kind, period. No baby to take home. No reward for the months of waiting. No acknowledgement for our having given birth. You have "acknowledged" it and so has presumably it's family and immediate circle of friends and the doctor. Are you going to carry the Stillbirth Certificate around and SHOW strangers on the street and acquaintances like the cashier at the corner gas station, the lady at the post office counter, and the regular waitress at the local diner when they ask why your gut has deflated or where the baby is? NO CERTIFICATE will cause a live baby to materialize and they need to accept it and move on.

2) When we discover that what once lived within us is dead we want to run away. But we can't, just yet. First we must deliver our baby, just like the mothers of live babies do. We must endure the pain. Just like mothers of live babies. And when it's over we get to hold our baby, just like mothers of live babies do. But then we have to give our baby back and go home to an empty nursery. Yeah, and life sucks. Some people eat a careful diet. Just like thin people do. Some people exercise regularly. Just like physically fit and healthy people do. Some people never smoke or drink. Just like many of their friends don't. Yet, they are STILL fat or they still get diabetes and cancer and die from it. I don't hear any of THEM wanting a certificate verifying to the world they did NOTHING wrong, yet they have 3 months to live and have to be buried in a fucking grand piano case.

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If YOU are the "exception" to what I am saying, then why does my commentary bother you so much?
I don't hate your kids, I HATE YOU!