Girlfriend wants child or break up

amethusos* Wrote:
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> I also cannot give you any more advice since you
> continue to listen to this woman's insanity such
> as selling your nice home and moving to a cruddy
> area all so she can push a stroller. If you keep
> being so wishy-washy and feeling sorry for her, I
> can bet this chick ain't goin' anywhere and you
> will eventually be oopsed.

Don't get me wrong here, I appreciate the links, information, and support here, but this is kind of ridiculous. If I spend a few extra days talking about my feelings to her, to possibly make the break up not as hard on her (and to a degree myself in strengthining my resolve), I am wishy-washy? Where did I ever say I was going to change my mind? Where did I ever say I was going to have sex with this woman?

I am firm in my decision. In fact I am so firm in my decision, I am not scared to talk it through with her, and leave on 'friendly' terms. We spend 4 years together, and I am supposed to run away like some kind of coward? I am stronger than that, and more respectful than that. Yes, she is making a rash decision for whatever reason that I do not think is reasonable, but so be it.

That said, I would not trust her, nor continue the relationship with her, because she said she changed her mind. We've been blunt that this is a go/no go decision. Nothing we have talked about involves a change of position. I would not believe a decision now claiming that she would be child free. So she is not somehow going to trick me into anything. As I said earlier, I can not get 'oopsed' if I do not participate in any way. If any kind of pregnancy occurred at this point, I would not sign the birth certificate and would demand a paternity test. It really is that simple.

I prefer the high road and treating people with respect. The conversations do nothing more than strengthen my resolve, since I can hear myself saying the words around why I do not have a child. I feel less and less pressure as I lay these out on the table for her to hear. I think it also makes it very clear to her that I am not going to change my mind.

jimo

Jim,

I'm sorry for the "firmness" of some of the advice here. I believe the tone of some of these messages only comes out of concern for you. Nobody here wants to see you get "oopsed" or guilted into continuing a relationship with this woman. Men get "oopsed" all the time without any opportunity for anyone to prevent it, and here we have an opportunity to do just that. That's where our "enthusiasm" comes in. We just REALLY don't want to see you get screwed.

Peppertree Wrote:
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> Jim,
>
> I'm sorry for the "firmness" of some of the advice
> here. I believe the tone of some of these messages
> only comes out of concern for you.

Agreed. The links and information here have helped me to realize that I can not put off anything, and most importantly, I should not believe her on any kind of a 'change her mind' situation. My opinion on that was quite changed by what occurred on this board. I appreciate that greatly.

There was just a bit of talk saying if I waited through this weekend, and talked things through, that I would somehow cave in. Part of being child free should be the strength in our own beliefs. Treating people with respect only helps to make us not look crazy. In the long run, it creates a stronger message that I am comfortable with this choice, and that it is a very respectable decision. It is a message I would like to pass along at any level. It helps validate the option as perfectly normal and well thought out.

So I guess I just wanted to mention that you do not have to run on out of there to make this choice stick. If you go into the situation eyes wide open, and stick firmly to what you must do, you will not somehow be tricked or coerced. She may have laid it on the line without any explanation or thought, but I know I am going to be so much more assured in my decision by giving her a bit of time to understand a why behind it.

Remember that just because you kick her out today, doesn't mean she is not going to try and come back and convince you later. It sure is easier to stop that from happening when you have put it all out there. All of this process is not only for her, but is for me to strengthen and validate my choice.

BTW, I am not mad/offended at all on the discussion here. I just wanted to point out that what I am doing, if done correctly, is not necessarily an automatic oops, cave in, etc.

Jim

Dear Jim -

Here's a suggestion I haven't seen anyone mention yet:

Have your wanna-be-mamma read this thread, or at least print out the messages YOU have posted here and have her take a look at those. I can't imagine that, if she wants a baybee deep in her heart-of-hearts, that she would want to stay with someone who genuinely feels the way you seem to. You have not been abusive or insincere in any of the messages you have posted so far. If I were going through Baby-Rabies and read a thread like this I'd be wondering, "What a low self-esteem the [girl] must have, why would she want to have/raise that particular [man's] kid in the first place?" KNOWING that this discussion was initiated by HER VERY OWN partner might even wake her up to the reality that you MEAN IT. It will probably offend her to a certain extent, the fact that you chose to go online and talk about your (her) PRIVATE MATTER with TOTAL STRANGERS, but that in itself ought to set off alarm-bells that YOU ARE NOT THE RIGHT PERSON TO HAVE A BABY WITH (sorry for the dangling preposition and all-caps outburst).

Let me tell you about myself so you get an idea of why I say this: I have had cats all my life, but for a while I didn't have my own, but lived with roommates who had them. Then I realized one day that I NEEDED my own cats. Now, I rescue them, so there are just way too many, but when I met my DH, I had "only" nine. Steve knows that I am committed to the cats and I say every once in a while that if he is going to leave me some day because of the cats, he can just go ahead and do it NOW. (He never threatens to leave, tho, and we recently adopted these 6 semi-feral foster kittens that wreck the house and wake me up all night, kind of like a "real" baby, I even call them "brats" but I don't mean it). My point is, if I read messages that he wrote to other people saying, "I just can't deal with my wife's cats, I don't know how to tell her that either they go or I go", I would GIVE him the money to move out (it's MY house, I inherited it from my mother who also did feline rescue) and make it as easy as possible for the both of us. The difference is, he knew what he was getting into when he MET me; if I had the choice, he would be a cat-person too (he likes them but isn't CRAZY about them like me).

You, when you met your GF, KNEW you didn't want kids, but if she had one already you'd have made your choice then. What if SHE was the CF one and YOU were trying to get her to change HER mind? Wouldn't you appreciate knowing how against [it] she is, in time to re-arrange your life so as to find greater happiness with someone else?

I must apologize for the fragmentation in this post. I can't seem to organize my thoughts clearly enough to make sure I got everything down via keyboard. The main thing is that I think you should let her read this thread.

Good Luck whatever you decide!

- poofy_puff

poofy_puff Wrote:
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> Dear Jim -
>
> Here's a suggestion I haven't seen anyone mention
> yet:
>
> Have your wanna-be-mamma read this thread, or at
> least print out the messages YOU have posted here
> and have her take a look at those.

That is not bad advice at all... I've communicated everything that I have said here to her, but rolling it up into a succinct message thread might in fact wake her up to the fact quicker. Last night, we talked about it again. Unfortunately she has now modified the story to not only does she want a baby, but really wants it to be MY baby, not just anyones. I think that mostly comes from the reality sinking in that she may never find someone else, and she is in a comfortable situation now. She actually did start listening, and admit that her other ideas were garbage and unfair.

That said, I believe 99% of this is trying to delay the inevitable. Very soon, I will just have to tell her to move on her way. I want to give her this kind of info, but at some point it is a simple 'have to' on her side, and 'no way' on my side. That is not going to change, and is mutually exclusive.

She's stopped the sobbing and is starting to finally listen. I hope to end this whole thing soon. And as I mentioned above, there is no worries about getting tricked, etc. I will not let anything like that happen. It is very easy to prevent.

The reality is I am going to have to deal with her for a bit anyways. I can not throw someone out on the street. That said, there will be realistic time frames. So treating her with respect, and not calling her crazy, etc., should help to smooth this transition process... It will be difficult enough already.

Thanks for an entirely different take on this,

Jim

Please don't think you have to "throw her out on the street". It sounds as if you really do care for one another, no one wants you to do that. If you are financially able (as you have indicated), you might go ahead and offer to ease the transition by providing the $ to do so. IMO, this is FAR more desirable than other alternatives which would also cost money. I'm not saying "pay her off" to get rid of her, but if you are both mature enough to know what you want, this is the path of least resistance.

Jim, I am sorry if I sound offensive. I worked with women who said they broke up with their live-in for some reason or another but never seemed to move out. One of my co-workers kept on staying in his house because the fellow offered to help her until she could get back on her feet. Never mind she spent the money from her condo that she sold when she moved in with the guy when romance was in the air. The woman quit a good job and barely made it to training class where I met her at Convergys. This woman did not want to deal with roomies and actually pay some bills for a change.

I went back to my old field so I had no idea if she stayed but I doubted it since the lady barely graduated training class and was absent a lot during class and then transition queue. This happens more than one would think with either gender. It is hell to get someone out after a break-up even if the place is in one person's name if the other party wants to be "kindly". If my relationship ended, I could live at the extended stay place for $99 per week or rent a studio apartment. This fellow owes me nothing to get me out of his house and there would be no vale of tears on my part.

I do believe the sobbing stopped with your girlfriend because she realised you are dead-set against having a child and she now understands the consequences are going to be very severe since she threatened a break-up. Respect is something that has to be earned. No one is owed it because someone else has been taking care of them for many years. Most people know who they can and cannot take advantage of which is why Nice People tend to finish last and come out of the experience with $$$ or emotional dents. The tiny tears have stopped because she found out really quick that you were not going to be manipulated by the water works.

Everyone always says they are not going to get tricked by a live-in, spouse, or dating partner. It does not matter if it is about money, fidelity, or being "oopsed". "It will never happen to me," is an old expression only for many people to find they have been "had" before they realised it and it is too late to back out especially if there is a pregnancy involved. Sure, you can refuse to sign the birth certificate and demand a paternity test. Don't think Ms. Wanna-Baby is going to be easy to live with for 9 months should this happen. And...you could get guilted to believe the kid was yours so there would be no testing.

People get fucked over by being too nice to someone that should be out of their lives. I should have left my former husband long ago and not enabled him. Taking the "high road" cost me years and $$$. This could be the same happening here but that is your problem if you want to live that way. If you believe being firm about not being screwed over is "cruel" or shows a lack of respect in the childfree-by-choice community, I would rather be considered "cruel" than to be taken advantage of by an opportunist. I don't go down that road anymore.

i add my thing we are concerned for you, and it can be hard to not bring our own baggage with our comments.. but thats the good thing about so many people here, we all have differing views, which is as it should be.

and its great that you are mature enough to realise that some of the comments are strong, if you want to email me we can talk about it man to man.

mercuriors.meme@gmail.com

i will reply as soon as i can. just know that we each of us brings our own views on this subject some are stronger than others. i dont see you as wishy washy, i see yoiu as a decent caring person. for good or ill, you are one of the good guys.. it would be a shame if you got into the whole baby thing..

as i have said other times and places.. sometimes the best option is the hardest one to take.. once you have done everything you can.

your cf male friend mercurior

*********************************************************************************************************************************
I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

jimo Wrote:
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> Unfortunately she has now modified the story to
> not only does she want a baby, but really wants it
> to be MY baby, not just anyones. I think that
> mostly comes from the reality sinking in that she
> may never find someone else, and she is in a
> comfortable situation now. She actually did start
> listening, and admit that her other ideas were
> garbage and unfair.


Just as Grizzlycat said, be very wary with the girlfriend suddenly being agreeable. Like you said, she knows she is in a very comfortable situation where she does not have to pay a dime for living expenses. Of course, she now "realises" she was unfair and how her ideas were garbage because she probably now has figured what a shit life she will have without YOU to feed her. Cunt! Yeah...it sounds "cruel" but this is one manipulating bitch. Yet, it is not "garbage" to claim she only wants your baby. Why??? Because she knows no other schmo is going to pay for her and a kid. Reality may be sinking in but I sure as hell would not trust her since she still admits to wanting a child. Either a person wants children or they don't. You cannot convince someone not to breed by talking of all of the fun that will be missed.

What this girl is trying to do (and the story-change is proof imo) is make a square peg fit into a round hole.
I cannot stomach baby central (or center, whatever the hell it is). Good site for those of that mindset. NOT MINE!!! Therefore, I cannot comment on much from that site.
What I say may step on other toes: living together is pretty much stating that one has one foot in the door and the other elsewhere. This girl seems to think that because she has invested 4 years, this entitles her to perks that marriage 'should' afford. I do not know how old she is but, unless you started this when you were around 21 or 22, she is getting up in years and, yes, age starts to be an issue. She knows she is going to have to start back at square one, and may very well take the live-in route again. However, this current situation is largley (largely???) her own doing; and is approaching the level of flogging the proverbial dead horse. (btw, I want YOUR baybee is just an attempt at ego-gratifying, .. your ego..).
I also am beginning to think that this girl cannot cope with this 'rejection' on a rational level. (normal I think, to a certain point.) I think, as you continue to stand by your decision the emotionalism on her part will escalate again.
It also may be more difficult to get rid of her than you think, depending on laws in whatever state you are in. I have no idea where 'common law wife' laws have gone, some states still have them and she might just try and go that route.
Keep us posted.. and good luck.
p.s.: part of this is may also be that she feels ashamed

I agree with Two Cents. I know I more than stepped on some toes with my participation with this thread. Most people hate honesty but want to hear saccharine sweet crap when dealing with something this tense.

This woman does NOT want to start all over seeking a mate and perhaps doing the live-in thing (especially if the new situation requires her laying out some greenbacks every month for living expenses) without the guarantee of marriage and a baby carriage. I believe Jim is setting himself up with the "I want to be fair" and "nice guy" attitude. Psychopaths and sociopaths feed on "nice people" and will use all sorts of emotional tactics to get what they want. Been there; done that...

As I have said many times before, it is often very difficult to get rid of a live-in when one party wants the other person to leave...even if the place is in the 1st person's name. Laws do vary from state to state. Anything in one person's name is not going to go to anyone else; however, some states do have laws stating how an eviction notice must be given if the other person refuses to leave the premises with it being that the looter has already established being a resident in the house/apartment and is refusing to LEAVE.

Two Cents said it when mentioning the ego boost of the "I want it to be YOUR baby...not someone else's." I also do not believe the woman is rational. She goes from sobbing and wailing how there better be a baby or a break-up to stating how she was so unfair and her opinions were garbage. Plan A did not work for her so she is going to make it difficult for Jim to get rid of her. It is now Plan B: She will behave for a time...but emotions will escalate again since he is being so "fair".

I doubt someone else's suggestion of showing her the responses on this site will make a difference except enrage her with the "How dare you go to strangers with such a personal issue," as another mentioned. I think Jim has made his decision already even though he does not want those babies. I feel sorry for him since he wants to remain childfree. *Sigh*...better him than us, right? I am grateful that I do not have to worry about that and I am not in his shoes.

I don't know if I could really say 'better him than us'.. I hope we are a tad more compassionate.. (sorry amethusos). However, we are relegated somewhat to 'observation only'. I think Master Jimo can take good care of himself, even if he is skating close to the edge of disaster. As pointed out earlier, he is trying to be a nice guy. The world needs more nice guys .. (and gals).
So, Jimo, you are going to have to judge when it comes down to (hopefully it won't have to) "no more mr nice guy...". I think she is going to string it along as long as she can (which, of course, makes the whole time issue even worse) pursuing the fantasy. This also increases the risk of 'extra-curricular' activity on her part as well. (I am just suspicious of everything: she could put your name down on the birth certificate, I don't know if she needs your permission to do that.)
Good luck Jimo...
"Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned???"

amethusos* Wrote:
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>
> I doubt someone else's suggestion of showing her
> the responses on this site will make a difference
> except enrage her with the "How dare you go to
> strangers with such a personal issue," as another
> mentioned.

That's pretty much what was intended by that suggestion.

[However, it is worth pointing out that in this day and age, lots of people talk about their personal lives and problems on the internet. Unlike discussing it with people who know you in person, it does afford some degree of anonymity.]

two cents ¢¢ Wrote:
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.
>
> ...I think she is going to string it along as long as she >can...

I think the "nice guy" thing to do would be to give (or loan) her the money for first, last, and security deposit on her own apartment, or whatever. That would be a lot cheaper than having / raising a kid, and it would be better than waiting for someone to save up the money to move out (as if!).

I'm starting to think ugly thoughts about vandalism, restraining orders, false police reports, etc. etc.

Stop me please!

This could go in any direction...
"Choose wisely, treat kindly"..
and 'don't put oneself in a stupid situation'
futility: doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different result (response)

what REALLY turned me off children was driving a school bus.
I witnessed the reality of behaviour as opposed to the saccharine shit of sprogging.

P.S: Oh, I would so dearly luv to be a fly on the wall when moo and duh go into a school when snookums has been written up/suspended on a bus for doing such and such, stating their widdle duddums would NEVER do such a thing, and... SURPRISE!!! they actually have tape of duddums doing such and such ... I wonder how many actually have their little asses reddened, not so much for what they did but for showing moo and duh up as idiots

ah but if you punish the child the children NOW know bout the law, and could have their parents arrested for assault (as has happened here)

sometimes its good to put information online to get the views, we have a lot of personal experience, and we may see things that people who are too close cant see.

*********************************************************************************************************************************
I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

Good luck Jimo...

Guys and girls, I think Jimo is going to do the right thing. If he was on a wrong track, he would have gone to some messed up "I luv that i'm a breeder" website. Or perhaps he would be registering at Rabies-OuR-Ass store chain.
Jimo appears to be a very intelligent men, which is why I think he came here, to this forum. We all got to understand, that his bitch GF can get all support she wants from anywhere, we all know that. Jimo is there fighting for himself. Not many will support him, we are the rare exception. Let's support him and tell him what we know! He will need it!

we cf need to stick together and us male cf need to stick even closer as we are a minority of a minority..

*********************************************************************************************************************************
I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

Jimo, brother, I know where you stand. Plain and simple, she sucker punched you! Get up, shake it off, and let her have it! You ain't a dummy, you know what is up. If what you are telling us here is true, the cards are all in your hands.

Earlier in the posts, someone mentioned common law marriage. Most states do not acknowledge those any more. The house is in your name, that's that. Make sure you got your stuff together, such as car keys and personal belongings, credit cards, bank info, debit cards. She may swipe something. Remove her from any and all accounts that she may be an authorized user on.

Now, you want to be nice, right? Perfect. Tell her you guys have been having some issues and it's better that you live apart for a little bit, just to "sort things out". If you got to pay her security deposit and first months rent, be it. It's still cheaper than a few pregoo OBGYN visits. Now, change you locks! Re-program your security codes. For a months or so, keep taking her stuff to her place. Meanwhile, talk as little as possible to her. If you want to be nice, pay her rent for a few months, but no auto withdrawals or anything! After about 3 months or so, stop calling or talking to her! She is out of your life!

Here is how I feel, some things are assumed, but you will get a general idea: (girls on this site, try not to read this, it may be harsh...)

Now, I am pissed at this GF of yours. Just freaking pissed. What right does she freaking have to intimidate YOU like that? Who the fuck is she? You are just there to keep her as a companion and use her for sex? WHAT? Fucking bitch! No fucking way! You busted your ass for 4 years, giving her everything SHE WANTED! She lived in your place for nothing! If you just wanted sex, hookers are much cheaper! And hookers do not ask for babies!

I am so fucking pissed, if I was living anywhere near you, I would have screamed at this bitch! Cunt of a person she is! If this hoe is willing to give up a man like yourself, she is a spoiled, rotten, selfish, entitlement minded, lazy, useless, worthless pile of baybee shit and vomit! She has no idea what work is, because you did it all! She has never appreciated you, you are her work mule! You deserve way better! She has absolutely no freaking right to enslave you into parenting. You will pay, you will provide. Do you think she is going to be happy with you if you give her what she wants? Fuck no! No fucking way! Next time she does not get something her way, it's going to be the same shit, all over but worse. She will have a sprog you will have to provide for BY LAW! The nice things you may have in your house: GONE! The nice clean car you got: GONE, trashed with baybee food. You are in a good spot right now, stay there!

When the bitch is gone, she will be sorry to you many. many times over! You, my man, will have every girl in town knocking on your door. You got cash and you ain't got a sprog. Chicks will not let up. Do not ever think that there might not be anyone else after she leaves! There is much more fish in the sea! Much more!

Cut her loose, she deserves a pile of crap man who lives off of her instead. 5 years from now, she will tell you that you were the smart one. If she has criblets, she will be screwed! Who is going to pay her medical when you are not around! She will eat shit, many, many times! You do not need her, because you can have much better any day!

Do not worry about right or wrong! Some will say that you should say that you do not want kids from the get go! Fine, but women lie, all the time they lie. I have known many females that "hated" kids. Well, they have their own to hate now! Do not attempt to borrow a kid and think it will work. It will not. She will just say that her kids will be different and continue to brainwash you!

People split up all the time. Your GF is a good example of a pushy cunt. Yeah, right now it's the kid that she wants, later, it will be a bigger house or another kid. She has no right to threaten the relationship if she does not get what she wants. You may want a blow job every time she is on her period, but do you get it? I bet not, and you are not kicking her out do you? I bet not!

Cunts like her need to live alone and provide for themselves before they appreciate anyone. She is worse than a fat cat (there is a way to get along with those) and she will not learn anything being around you!

So Jim what happened? I hope you didn't cave in! I wouldn't trust Ms.Baby Rabies one inch. Listen to Techie.

two cents ¢¢ Wrote:
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> I don't know if I could really say 'better him
> than us'.. I hope we are a tad more
> compassionate.. (sorry amethusos). However, we are
> relegated somewhat to 'observation only'.

Being "compassionate" often leads to be taken advantage of by someone like the girlfriend. Why does this guy have to be "compassionate" toward a woman who is giving him an ultimatum which will grossly affect his life? Most people find it hard to take what I have to say because I do not sugar-coat it at all. The truth often does suck.

Even though I am female and feminist, Techie is right on this one with his last post. Girlfriend knows Jim is a decent guy which is why she is doing the emotional blackmail.

Prostitutes are cheaper than women like this one. She is a pushy cunt who is used to getting what she wants. I doubt Ol' Jim never gets anything that good in return. If Jim did put her out, she probably would get a leech who lived off of her as good men are truly rare.

Jim will certainly get horny and have sex with...and then, "Whammo," her birth control suddenly failed. I don't buy it when the guy says the girl can stay but he will keep his pants on.

> So Jim what happened? I hope you didn't cave in! I wouldn't trust >Ms.Baby Rabies one inch. Listen to Techie. (from Sharon J.)

I feel for Jim but I think he caved...or else he would have posted.

I think you're right Amethsous! Jim, girlfriend is playing you good. The hell with her. I'm surprised she hasn't threated to kill herself yet! If she does call the cops: I did that to ex bf, he ended up in hospital ward.
If you caved, well more fool you. Welcome to the World of Walking Wallets. (And if you did, no sympathy from me whatsoever.)

Techie Wrote:
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> Earlier in the posts, someone mentioned common law
> marriage. Most states do not acknowledge those
> any more. The house is in your name, that's that.
> Make sure you got your stuff together, such as
> car keys and personal belongings, credit cards,
> bank info, debit cards. She may swipe something.
> Remove her from any and all accounts that she may
> be an authorized user on.

The day I left my former husband on 01-04-07, I did exactly that: canceled credit cards & the joint checking account with those check card, had a turn-off date with the utilities/phone and put passwords on those accounts so he could not restart them in my name. and got him off of my auto insurance...and again passworded my GEICO account. This is serious stuff, Jim. You may think we are harsh and that is not the way for the childfree to be; however, many of us (male and female) have been through some real horrible stuff from other people in our lives. Like my former husband, your live-in thinks she is entitled due to you providing for her. Remember YOU are the one who said this woman gets whatever she wants and you get to work for it. It will only be more so unless you stand up for yourself and get her out...unless you have allowed your mind to be changed...or you suddenly believe she is contrite, which she ain't.

sharon j. Wrote:
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> If you caved, well more fool you. Welcome to the
> World of Walking Wallets. (And if you did, no
> sympathy from me whatsoever.)

Same here! I have no sympathy for you, Jim, if you caved. You did it to yourself. You will be dealing with a bitch girlfriend/maybe-wife and a baby while we are childfree. Better you than us...:lips