I openly hate my son, but its all worth it!

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Cambion
Creative types seem to especially have a lack of a desire to reproduce, which makes sense. The very core of creativity is freedom, which you have absolutely none of after having kids. Some are specifically childfree while I think others simply don't find the time to get around to dating, fucking and breeding.

I'm a right-brain, out-there, unapologetic writer and artist. I only date men who are creative types. All of them have been either openly childfree or couldn't give two fucks about the whole kid question.

My cousin is also an artist. She married an artist. Neither of them want kids. They have two cats. Her sister had the nerve to say, "Why doesn't she just stop with the cats already and have a kid?"

While I'm sure many creatives get bingoed endlessly with the "freedom is selfish" bullshit, who is entertaining you and your brood? Who writes the books you read? Who illustrates your kids' books? Who designs the websites you jump on every day? Who designs the clothes you wear? Who performs in the shows you get tickets for months ahead of time? Who paints the sets and sews the costumes for those shows? Who scripts, acts in, animates, directs, produces and set-designs the movies you watch? Who draws and paints and sculpts the things you can't help but Instagram when you see them? Who writes and designs the ads that suck you in? Who does these and so many more things that amaze and entertain you? Just one of the countless reasons people like me stay childfree and unburdened is so that we are able to give of as much of our talents as possible to the world. We want to inspire others just as much as we want to see our own dreams realized. Tell me, breeders, how is that selfish?

*Please note I'm not saying creatives are superior to everyone else (a little stranger, maybe, but that's just me looking in the mirror). Left brains, right brains and all other brains can make major contributions to society using their talents. I'm just noting the ways in which we are the opposite of selfish.

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"If your parenting didn't make him a sociopath the lack of it did." -Jessica Jones

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evilchildlessbitch
Yes, I'm married but I don't feel attacked.
I never really thought I would be married or in a long term relationship and I was fine with that. I won't dispute that having my husband in my life makes it better but I have never been unhappy not being in a relationship.
I am an introvert who lived alone for my entire adult life until I married at 33. I never longed for somebody to be in a relationship or "complete me." I guess most people are extroverts who feel lonely without a partner and that is fine for them. What isn't fine is settling and then whining about it or breeding and then complaining they never wanted it.
I believe people should live their lives on their own terms. They can compromise what they wish and decline where they wish.
What I can't deal with is people who compromise and then blame others. If a person really doesn't want kids or step-dad they will decline those relationships. My general observation has been that people who aren't happy alone aren't happy as part of a couple. They expect their partner to miraculously make them feel happy and better about themselves. This is an unfair burden. I firmly believe people should be happy with themselves alone before attempting to be happy in a marriage and/or parenthood.

I was the same way. I never felt the need to be in a relationship or even go out with anyone either. I used to wonder what it was like, but I also saw the drama it brought to people's lives, so I then wondered if it was worth it. In addition, I wasn't going to get involved or go out with someone just to be doing those things, it had to be someone I wanted to be with and I never met anyone who fit the bill. I had female friends, but it never went beyond that.

I married at 33 also after being involved long distance for 5 years and she also along the way decided she didn't want kids so just before we got married, I had a vasectomy. I've been married 14 years and am happy in our marriage but I also know if something happened to my wife, I could be by myself again if I had to be and probably would be because at my age, all that's probably out there are single mothers and those worried their clock is running out, and I don't want either of those.

Like you, I believe in living life on my own terms too, and have faced a lot of conflict because of it. People just want to cram what they do down other people's throats.

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aes sedai
I'm a right-brain, out-there, unapologetic writer and artist. I only date men who are creative types. All of them have been either openly childfree or couldn't give two fucks about the whole kid question.

I am far from being an artist, but I never had any desire to breed. Zero. But, that may explain why I had very hard time finding someone who was true CF - I am not artistic. I am a techie. They say opposites attract, but reality is that people must have something in common.

I am definitely CF by choice for many, many reasons.
I am not creative at all. You know, these posts are like
the height of my creativity :-))))
I am introverted, my mother was narcissistic and my father
was abusive.Maybe there is a clue.

I also believe in living life on my own terms.
I am at least always trying.

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mrs. chinaski
I am definitely CF by choice for many, many reasons.
I am not creative at all. You know, these posts are like
the height of my creativity :-))))
I am introverted, my mother was narcissistic and my father
was abusive.Maybe there is a clue.

I also believe in living life on my own terms.
I am at least always trying.

My parents were definitely not perfect either. But for me, it worked out for the better because from the time that I could remember, I did not want to breed. I did not know there was a choice in kids, but I used to notice that mostly man/woman combos had kids. At very early age, I remember asking my mother if not getting married was possible because I did not want kids. She told me that it was possible. I remember having a huge smile and a joyful feeling of content.

Interesting...
I also never wanted to breed.

I've always wished to have a great partner
and an interesting, harmonious life with him.
"me &you, just us 2"
Chyldren were never in any of my phantasies.

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mrs. chinaski
Interesting...
I also never wanted to breed.

I've always wished to have a great partner
and an interesting, harmonious life with him.
"me &you, just us 2"
Chyldren were never in any of my phantasies.

When I was very young, I did not know how things worked. Back then, it seemed like man+woman=baby. I did not know any different. All I saw was that men who lived by themselves had no babies

Funny thing is that ultimately, I had to choose to live by myself because every "cf" woman that I ended up with later switched to a wanna breed. Having a partner was great in every way, if I was to exclude the wanna breed ending. They say that it is better to have loved and lost than to never loved at all. I am not sure that's entirely true. If someone never had it, I don't know that they would miss it.

I come from a post-communist country.
People were supposed to get married and produce
a lot of pioneers :-)
The only people without chyldren were people who
were infertile.

On the TCFL board is a thread "more CF-ers who aren't CF".
The consensus was that "a lot of women pretend to be genuinely CF
when they have not met someone willing to breed with them yet."
-> this applies to you Techie, too. They faked it, met you and then decided
that you are the right one and wanted a baybeh.
You didn't and that was the end of the relationship.

"They say that it is better to have loved and lost than to never loved at all."
-> I don't believe it. To have loved and lost would mean that you have to live
with that loss and sadness in your heart.

While I was probably never inclined toward having kids when I was a kid, I will say that two summers as a day camp counselor for a group of mostly bratty boys aged 7-8 years old sealed the deal for me at age 20.

I was never really pressed on the issue until a woman I was dating when I was 25 mentioned kids. I kinda hedged on it even though I was more inclined toward saying "no." Over the years, my CF position became more firm although it did cost me some relationships in the 1990s as it became more and more difficult to find women to date. In dating websites, just about all the women from ages 25-45 either had kids (i.e. divorced or widowed) or wanted to have kids. I did manage to find a few women who did not fall into that category (back in 2003, an otherwise good year for me in the women department as I turned 40).

As I entered my 40s, however, I expanded the pool of eligible women by including those who had adult children who were not part of the daily lives of their mothers, the women I wanted to date. This enabled me to find the woman who has been my LF (and who can't have more kids nor wants to) for the last 11 years.

Thankfully, as a guy whose family always respected the personal choices of others, I was never bingoed by any of them. In fact, they tend to envy me because I was able to retire at age 45 (7 years ago), an achievement I attribute in great part to being CF.

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mrs.Chinaski
On the TCFL board is a thread "more CF-ers who aren't CF".
The consensus was that "a lot of women pretend to be genuinely CF
when they have not met someone willing to breed with them yet."
-> this applies to you Techie, too. They faked it, met you and then decided
that you are the right one and wanted a baybeh.
You didn't and that was the end of the relationship.

Some time ago, I was reading some advice from some dating site. I don't remember which one. The advice was written for women. In it, website was suggesting that women who want kids, should never choose the box marked "want kids". They should instead either mark "undecided", "will tell you later" or "do not want kids". According to the site, women who put down "want kids" get the lowest number of messages. Basically, they are telling women to lie. Also, as you may have guessed, "do not want kids" gets the highest number of replies. There is only one problem. Women who truly don't want kids, very few of them are on a dating site to begin with, because they don't need to be. It's not like they are busy with kids and can't get out of the house and meet people. That is the reason why I never did and never will participate in online dating crap shoot. It is not for straight CF men. There is nothing there for us.

@deegee: I would tell you to not get involved with any kind of moos at all, but then I would have to tell you where to find a true CF woman and I can't because I simply don't know the answer.

I know a couple of "CF" men who are with single moos for that exact reason - they never found a single CF woman. Once they hit mid 40's, whatever choices they could possibly have had were now gone. As for me, I don't think I can ever date a single moo, but if someone else does, I will not speak negative of them. I would have nightmares if I dated a single moo. I also know a few "CF" women who are with single duhs and that I never could understand. There is probably 5 CF men for each CF woman. With so many choices, why would she bother?

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Techie
I am far from being an artist, but I never had any desire to breed. Zero. But, that may explain why I had very hard time finding someone who was true CF - I am not artistic. I am a techie. They say opposites attract, but reality is that people must have something in common.

I'm technical too. I don't think there's a correlation between being creative and being CF. People like us are quite likely to sit down and make lists, weigh pros and cons, and reach rational decisions.

It's just that quite a lot of people, both artistic and technical, engage in wishful thinking and blind optimism.

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Techie
There is probably 5 CF men for each CF woman. With so many choices, why would she bother?

Yes and no. There are a lot of men that a CF woman can get to go along with her, at least in my experience. But there's a reason there are more women than men on this board, and that's because CF women are more likely to declare themselves because of the pressures we face. A lot of men can take the approach of not really wanting kids but not really saying they're CF, either. I have no doubt that there are many men who would be relieved to find someone who didn't want kids, but I've never met/dated any guy who was as intensely opposed to kids as I am. Men who are truely CF and out about it are pretty rare.

Techie, who says techies aren't creative? Just because you don't sing, dance, play musical instruments, paint, draw, etc...doesn't make you non-creative. Think of your work, our job, and the things yo do as a techie. You have to be creative to solve problems on the spot for customers. Designing new software requires creativity.

You're still creative. You're just using non-traditional tools to do it.

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Peace
Techie, who says techies aren't creative? Just because you don't sing, dance, play musical instruments, paint, draw, etc...doesn't make you non-creative. Think of your work, our job, and the things yo do as a techie. You have to be creative to solve problems on the spot for customers. Designing new software requires creativity.

You're still creative. You're just using non-traditional tools to do it.

Usually graphic design is done by very creative people. A software code is often written for a specific purpose. In many cases, a company wants a software to execute a set of particular tasks. Calculate certain points from a certain set of data or integrate something like optical recognition into a already existing program. As far as creative goes, yes, we do need all that we can get, but we don't draw, sing, dance, play instruments or write books. That means we don't have "human" factor in our creativity.

I forget if I already gave my two cents to this thread, so I'll do it again if I already did.

Growing up I could see absolutely no reason people got married beyond man wants sex, woman wants kids, put the two together and you have the relationships that were modeled to me.
Aside from wanting the sex though, there were MANY breederific men around me, and since my moo looooved the sex segregation of the church she raised me in, I was frequently around a lot of women who let it all out. They didn't REALLY seem all that excited about making babies. It was demanded of them by their religion, and they simultaneously resented it and believed it was a better, higher life to live, as a SHAM. (Why yes I like to mangle SAHM.)

Perhaps the breederific men also felt they were obligated to reproduce, since it is "commanded", but they also had a lot of sick control fantasies about it and I heard all this from boys my age.


I resentfully concluded that I guess I would have just one kid, but only if I had to. But I already thought outside of that tiny little box I was expected to remain inside and knew that some of the boys at school were different and better than the boys and men at church, and so I still dreamed of marrying a friend and partner who wouldn't demand such a thing of me.
He found me on an internet personals site! We are out there, introverts especially find internet dating convenient. I was never going to meet anyone worthwhile in person, I take a long time to warm up and come across as very unapproachable if I don't already know someone.


I have one friend who is awesome. She had one kid, not knowing what she was getting into and will tell you how horrible the experience was, lol! Her husband would love more children, but she gave him a flat NO, and tells me good for you, it's not worth it.
Neither of them read unless it is an obligation, so she was never going to stumble across the truth of birthing since all other moos will flat out deceive you to your face.


And my two cents on creativity... I am very technically oriented and use my skills to make art. Some bizarre balance of the two. Right/left brain dominance isn't really a thing as the "science" of the 60s might lead you to believe. I mean obviously some people are more or less artistic or "technical" oriented, but don't let that "box you in". There's knowing your strengths, but there's also buying into pseudoscience and just giving up because you believed some "authority". I'm sure as adults we all have established our strengths and weaknesses, I'm just saying, just because 99% of people tell you "this is the way you work because I said so", doesn't mean they are correct. My whole life proves this.
Do I need to provide citations?

Presto, I grew up in a relatively low income, large city area. Men wanted sex, women wanted baybees. Those 2 would part ways as soon as both got what they wanted.

Religion did not exist and because most of us were raised by single mothers, all we would hear was that all men were complete douche bags and how men made women have baybees. I learned that I am not going to be such man. Once I became an adult, women would then bitch that I would not give them baybees - WTF?

Presto, I know our backgrounds are different, but allow me to tell you, people are fucked up everywhere. They always find something to bitch about. My conclusion is that breeding just sucks.

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Techie
Presto, I grew up in a relatively low income, large city area. Men wanted sex, women wanted baybees. Those 2 would part ways as soon as both got what they wanted.

Religion did not exist and because most of us were raised by single mothers, all we would hear was that all men were complete douche bags and how men made women have baybees. I learned that I am not going to be such man. Once I became an adult, women would then bitch that I would not give them baybees - WTF?

Presto, I know our backgrounds are different, but allow me to tell you, people are fucked up everywhere. They always find something to bitch about. My conclusion is that breeding just sucks.

Wow! That is horrible for both men and women to be raised like that. Many of my friends had parents who got divorced and some were children of single mothers but it was considered bad form to bash the other in front of kids. I guess I had a dream childhood because my parents were married five years before I was born and my sister and I were both planned. Shortly after my sister was born, permanent birth control was used to prevent any more. Males were not valued more than females. We were taught that marriage and pregnancy were both optional and that it was shameful to have children when you couldn't afford them, married or not. Education was encouraged and valued. When I told my parents I was never having kids, they praised me for knowing what I wanted and told me that having kids isn't for everyone and it is important to not have kids you don't want.