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Wannabe grandparents whinge on wsj.com
Posted by gnarler
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Wannabe grandparents whinge on wsj.com April 14, 2014 | Registered: 13 years ago Posts: 337 |
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303775504579395501172676002
The whiners in the article are bad enough. They think they are owed grandloaves. The article and the comments neglect to point out reasons besides financial ones that grandloaves are delayed or never arrive. The comments in particular make me sick though. There's one racist fuck in particular, Bill Weronko, that makes me rage. A quick perusal of his facebook also shows that he's a climate change denier. And of course there's a healthy dose of MRA crap in there. I just can't believe these stupid fucking people. Ugh!
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The Long (Long) Wait to Be a Grandparent
As More Couples Delay Having Children, Ties Between Generations Are Feeling the Strain
It's a natural part of growing older. People start to long for grandchildren—and many start to pressure their adult child, in overt or subtle ways, to produce those grandchildren.
For the current generation of would-be grandparents and their children, those desires are getting more urgent—and the pressure is getting a lot more intense.
It comes down to simple arithmetic. More individuals are waiting until their 30s and beyond to have their first child. Perhaps they want to get their finances or career in order first, find the right partner or take on other big projects like an advanced degree or world travel.
Whatever the reason, the result is that their parents have to wait longer for their first grandchild—perhaps to age 70 instead of age 60. They have to worry about whether they will be healthy enough to help out and enjoy the time they have with their grandchildren. Or if they'll be alive at all.
The shift is "ringing alarm bells," says Mary Jane Horton, 62 years old, a writer, editor and blogger who lives in Pasadena, Calif., and is hoping for grandchildren sooner rather than later. "We know intellectually that we have to wait, but we don't want to," adds Ms. Horton, who likens the feeling to that of a "biological clock" for grandparents.
Experts say the trend toward older grandparenthood may also change aspects of the relationship between grandparents and grandchildren. The benefits of growing up with grandparents are well documented: Aside from serving as an extra source of child care and economic support, grandparents often "form an alternative attachment to the child that can be very important to the child's development," says Merril Silverstein, a professor of sociology at Syracuse University who focuses on aging.
But while older grandparents typically make greater financial contributions to their grandchildren, they often provide less in the way of child care and are "less likely to interact and recreate" with them on a daily basis, Prof. Silverstein says. True, longevity gains give them "more opportunities to engage," he says. But for some, poor health can get in the way.
And there's no denying the math: Older grandparents have fewer years with their grandchildren.
Interviews with dozens of couples, would-be grandparents and educators across the country make it clear that much of this is difficult to resolve. Talking, of course, helps—about expectations, timetables, fears. Some would-be grandparents are finding other outlets, like volunteer work, for their frustrations. Still others are offering to pay for fertility treatments and child care—just to ensure the possibility of grandchildren.
But more often than not, the two generations end up reaching an uncomfortable truce, one where adult children invariably hold an edge. "You want to tell them to hurry up, but they aren't working on your schedule," says Mary Ellen Strote, 72, a part-time editor in Calabasas, Calif., who recently became a first-time grandmother.
Economics tells a big part of the story. In response to the recession, the U.S. fertility rate between 2007 and 2012 plunged to an all-time low, as women of all ages—except for those 35 and older—put off childbearing or opted against having children. Combined with longer-term cultural shifts, including greater educational and workplace opportunities for women, this has caused the proportion of first births to women ages 35 and older to rise to nearly one in 12 today from one in 100 in 1970. (Overall, nearly one in seven children is now born to women in that age group.)
At the same time, the percentage of women ages 40 to 44 who have never given birth has nearly doubled to 18%, according to the Pew Research Center.
Amid the procrastination, the average age at which Americans first become grandparents is on the rise, as well. Consider: The proportion of women ages 60 to 64 with no grandchildren is expected to reach 25% by 2020, up from 10% in the 1990s, according to Peter Uhlenberg, a sociology professor at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
In the end, the delays shortchange both grandparent and grandchild—at least according to older adults. That's because, once a grandchild finally arrives, there is less time to develop close ties. And time that is spent together invariably feels rushed—even frantic.
"We feel pressure to compress the years we would have had with them into a shorter period," says Marsha Winer, 77. The Palos Verdes Estates, Calif., resident and her husband, Nate, 78, became first-time grandparents two years ago when their son Dan, now 50, and his wife, Stephanie, adopted two children. Today, the Winers try to pack as many grandparenting moments as possible into their visits with Caleb, 3, and David, 2: visits to the zoo and aquarium, baking cookies, shooting baskets on a minihoop.
"The boys are so much fun to be with—it really has changed our lives," Ms. Winer says. Still, she adds, "We both wish [this] had happened 10 to 15 years ago."
Ms. Strote, the 72-year-old editor in California, says the age gap between herself and her grandchildren—Maisy, 4, and Penelope, almost 2—makes "everything a little more intense."
Ms. Strote, who goes to the gym regularly, has no trouble taking long walks, rolling down hills and playing on the ground with her granddaughters. But she also knows she may not be able to do that for long. "There is more awareness on my part that I am not going to play as large of a role in their lives as my grandparents played in my life," she says. "Chances are, they won't have the same vivid memories of me as an active person who is involved in their lives as I had of my grandmother and my children had of their grandmother."
The Heat Is On
Beryl Porter, 73, of Mancos, Colo., shares some of those fears. "Selfishly, I am worried that I am not going to see that baby when they decide to have it," Ms. Porter says of her son and his wife. Her concerns became exacerbated last year, when her husband Wil, 78, had a heart attack and a quadruple bypass.
"We are both very active, but things can change quickly at this age," Ms. Porter says.
Her son Trent Porter says he and his wife, Savannah, have tried to be "pretty honest and direct" with their parents about their plans for starting a family. In addition to developing his Denver financial-planning business, Mr. Porter, 34, says his wife, 29, is halfway through a three-year program to become a physician assistant. The two, who were married in August, also want to take time to travel to India and Nepal. Children are at least three years off.
Still, "the message from our parents is, 'There is never a perfect time to have children. You just need to make it happen,' " Mr. Porter says. "There is this underlying tone from the parents of, 'Well, your priorities are out of whack.' "
For her part, Beryl Porter says she understands that waiting to have children often makes economic sense. But she worries about the assumption that "a profession is more important" than family and says that waiting can backfire if it leads to fertility problems or inertia. "Sometimes when we get into a comfort zone, it becomes easier to stay in our comfort zone."
Kathryn Hill, 55, Savannah Porter's mother and a hospice nurse in Cañon City, Colo., says she takes pains not to pressure her daughter and son-in-law. But she, too, has concerns about the delay. "With the type of work I do, I see how health can change at a moment's notice," she says.
"Savannah says she wants to wait until she gets out of school and then take a year off before she even thinks about babies," she says. "Sometimes I think, 'Well, you can always get an education but you can't always have children.' "
Ms. Hill also raises what might be called the ugly-duckling issue. Older adults who are waiting—and waiting—for grandchildren frequently find themselves on the social sidelines, watching veteran grandparents happily head off to soccer games and school events. "All of my friends and sisters have grandchildren," she says. "I kind of feel, not like an outcast, but that I can't relate to them when we get together." Having grandchildren, she adds, would "make me feel like I am growing" as a person.
Some of the toughest times are holidays, says Atlanta resident Martha Tate, 68, an author and gardening blogger whose first grandchild is due to arrive later this year. "You get Christmas cards with all the grandchildren lined up—and you're still sending a card with your two grown girls and a dog," she says. Ms. Tate adds that she has been hesitant to talk with her daughters, ages 37 and 30, about grandchildren, worrying that she might appear selfish. But thoughts about when the day might come occupied her mind "more than I would ever let on," she says.
Her older daughter, Anne Tate Pearce, says she felt she "had permission to take my time" because Ms. Tate herself waited until she found the right person to marry. "It's a joy to now be able to share the excitement of expecting a baby with my mother and sister."
Her sister, Laura Tate, says, "I know my mother likes kids. But she never pressured us about liking a particular boyfriend we had. She doesn't express an opinion one way or another."
Should older adults mention the "G" word to their children? Amy Johnson, a life coach and psychologist in Canton, Mich., who works mainly with professional women in their late 30s and early 40s, says conversations can help—but cautions wannabe grandparents about the risks. While most of her clients don't like it when their parents bring up the topic of grandchildren, it can sometimes cause tension when they don't.
"For most of the women I work with, either their parents are wondering and pressuring them in subtle or overt ways," she says. "Or, in some cases, their parents don't ask questions, probably because they feel it is none of their business." Some women conclude their parents don't care about grandchildren or have no faith in their ability to be a good parent, Ms. Johnson adds.
Her advice to grandparents-in-waiting: Go ahead and ask your adult children questions, like "Do you want children?" and "What is your expected timetable?" But don't push your own agenda. "A lot of parents are pretty blunt. They say things like, 'I am getting older. When is this going to happen? I want to be able to enjoy those grandkids,' " Ms. Johnson says. But to adult children, she adds, that can feel like their parents are saying, " 'I'm going to die soon, and this is my dying wish.' It becomes a huge source of pressure."
Another Outlet
Georgia Witkin, a psychologist at RMA of New York LLP, a fertility clinic in New York, recommends that wannabe grandparents find other outlets for their frustrations. To that end, Mary Jane Horton—the 62-year-old writer—serves as a court-appointed advocate for a foster child, age 12.
"She's not a baby, but it still takes some of that energy that I want to put into a grandchild and devotes it to a child," Ms. Horton says. Among other duties, she speaks to the girl's therapist, social worker and doctor and goes to court hearings on her behalf. Beyond that, she says, "I see her two or three times a month. I take her to the movies. I am the one steady person she has had in her life."
Barbara LaGree, 64, of Albuquerque, N.M., says her advice is to "live your life and not wait on something that may or may not happen." As such, she and her 70-year-old husband, Brooks—while waiting for their son (37) and daughter (34) to have children—are "trying to do everything on our bucket list," she says. That includes travel to Banff in the Canadian Rockies this summer and to New Zealand next year.
"Hopefully, when we have grandchildren our kids will probably need us to help them," she says. "We want to be available to them when it happens, and I'm sure it will."
In an age of assisted reproductive technology, some grandparents-in-waiting are doing more than merely talking about grandchildren. Fertility clinics report that a growing number are helping adult children pay for treatments.
Dr. Witkin of New York's RMA fertility clinic says about one-third of the women who undergo the egg-freezing procedure at RMA come in with their parents, many of whom fully or partially underwrite the cost. (That figure typically ranges from $10,000 to $15,000, not including bills for medication and storage.)
Susan Kaplan, a financial planner in Newton, Mass., spent $30,000 last year so her daughter Diane Kaplan, 37, could freeze her eggs. "She no longer feels she has to put the pressure on herself to find Prince Charming in a timely way," says Ms. Kaplan. Nonetheless, Ms. Kaplan says parents should carefully consider the impact on their own nest eggs. Some of her clients have put their own retirements at risk because "helping to pay to freeze the eggs" proved to be "only step one."
Especially when egg-freezing enables women to become single parents, "somehow the unwritten contract becomes that 'We're all in this together,' " says Ms. Kaplan, who sees grandparents underwriting extras, like camps and special schools, that their daughters can't afford.
Some would-be grandparents and their adult children say the best they can do is recognize—and perhaps laugh about—the irony in the situation. No small number of today's would-be grandmothers delayed having children themselves as women started entering the workforce in greater numbers.
Now that their adult daughters are making the same decision, the logic doesn't always seem as sound as it did 30-plus years ago. Alice Waters, 69, says she began to feel a desire for grandchildren in her early 60s. For Ms. Waters—a cookbook author and owner of Chez Panisse, the renowned Berkeley, Calif., restaurant—the feeling "just kind of kicked in, just the way wanting a child did" when she was in her late 30s.
But while Ms. Waters's only child, Fanny Singer, 30, says she likes the idea of having children, both she and her mother acknowledge that Ms. Singer isn't ready to become a parent yet. Ms. Singer, who recently received a Ph.D. in art history from the University of Cambridge, lives with her partner, Sam Thorne, the recently appointed artistic director at the Tate St. Ives museum in Cornwall, England. While the couple intends to get married, both are currently focused on building their careers as art historians, writers and curators.
Ms. Singer says her mother occasionally makes teasing remarks like, "Anytime is a good time," and "If you have a child and you're too busy, you can just drop it off with me."
In response, Ms. Singer says: "I always gently remind her that if she wanted a grandchild earlier, she should have had me when she was younger."
The whiners in the article are bad enough. They think they are owed grandloaves. The article and the comments neglect to point out reasons besides financial ones that grandloaves are delayed or never arrive. The comments in particular make me sick though. There's one racist fuck in particular, Bill Weronko, that makes me rage. A quick perusal of his facebook also shows that he's a climate change denier. And of course there's a healthy dose of MRA crap in there. I just can't believe these stupid fucking people. Ugh!
--------------------------------
The Long (Long) Wait to Be a Grandparent
As More Couples Delay Having Children, Ties Between Generations Are Feeling the Strain
It's a natural part of growing older. People start to long for grandchildren—and many start to pressure their adult child, in overt or subtle ways, to produce those grandchildren.
For the current generation of would-be grandparents and their children, those desires are getting more urgent—and the pressure is getting a lot more intense.
It comes down to simple arithmetic. More individuals are waiting until their 30s and beyond to have their first child. Perhaps they want to get their finances or career in order first, find the right partner or take on other big projects like an advanced degree or world travel.
Whatever the reason, the result is that their parents have to wait longer for their first grandchild—perhaps to age 70 instead of age 60. They have to worry about whether they will be healthy enough to help out and enjoy the time they have with their grandchildren. Or if they'll be alive at all.
The shift is "ringing alarm bells," says Mary Jane Horton, 62 years old, a writer, editor and blogger who lives in Pasadena, Calif., and is hoping for grandchildren sooner rather than later. "We know intellectually that we have to wait, but we don't want to," adds Ms. Horton, who likens the feeling to that of a "biological clock" for grandparents.
Experts say the trend toward older grandparenthood may also change aspects of the relationship between grandparents and grandchildren. The benefits of growing up with grandparents are well documented: Aside from serving as an extra source of child care and economic support, grandparents often "form an alternative attachment to the child that can be very important to the child's development," says Merril Silverstein, a professor of sociology at Syracuse University who focuses on aging.
But while older grandparents typically make greater financial contributions to their grandchildren, they often provide less in the way of child care and are "less likely to interact and recreate" with them on a daily basis, Prof. Silverstein says. True, longevity gains give them "more opportunities to engage," he says. But for some, poor health can get in the way.
And there's no denying the math: Older grandparents have fewer years with their grandchildren.
Interviews with dozens of couples, would-be grandparents and educators across the country make it clear that much of this is difficult to resolve. Talking, of course, helps—about expectations, timetables, fears. Some would-be grandparents are finding other outlets, like volunteer work, for their frustrations. Still others are offering to pay for fertility treatments and child care—just to ensure the possibility of grandchildren.
But more often than not, the two generations end up reaching an uncomfortable truce, one where adult children invariably hold an edge. "You want to tell them to hurry up, but they aren't working on your schedule," says Mary Ellen Strote, 72, a part-time editor in Calabasas, Calif., who recently became a first-time grandmother.
Economics tells a big part of the story. In response to the recession, the U.S. fertility rate between 2007 and 2012 plunged to an all-time low, as women of all ages—except for those 35 and older—put off childbearing or opted against having children. Combined with longer-term cultural shifts, including greater educational and workplace opportunities for women, this has caused the proportion of first births to women ages 35 and older to rise to nearly one in 12 today from one in 100 in 1970. (Overall, nearly one in seven children is now born to women in that age group.)
At the same time, the percentage of women ages 40 to 44 who have never given birth has nearly doubled to 18%, according to the Pew Research Center.
Amid the procrastination, the average age at which Americans first become grandparents is on the rise, as well. Consider: The proportion of women ages 60 to 64 with no grandchildren is expected to reach 25% by 2020, up from 10% in the 1990s, according to Peter Uhlenberg, a sociology professor at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
In the end, the delays shortchange both grandparent and grandchild—at least according to older adults. That's because, once a grandchild finally arrives, there is less time to develop close ties. And time that is spent together invariably feels rushed—even frantic.
"We feel pressure to compress the years we would have had with them into a shorter period," says Marsha Winer, 77. The Palos Verdes Estates, Calif., resident and her husband, Nate, 78, became first-time grandparents two years ago when their son Dan, now 50, and his wife, Stephanie, adopted two children. Today, the Winers try to pack as many grandparenting moments as possible into their visits with Caleb, 3, and David, 2: visits to the zoo and aquarium, baking cookies, shooting baskets on a minihoop.
"The boys are so much fun to be with—it really has changed our lives," Ms. Winer says. Still, she adds, "We both wish [this] had happened 10 to 15 years ago."
Ms. Strote, the 72-year-old editor in California, says the age gap between herself and her grandchildren—Maisy, 4, and Penelope, almost 2—makes "everything a little more intense."
Ms. Strote, who goes to the gym regularly, has no trouble taking long walks, rolling down hills and playing on the ground with her granddaughters. But she also knows she may not be able to do that for long. "There is more awareness on my part that I am not going to play as large of a role in their lives as my grandparents played in my life," she says. "Chances are, they won't have the same vivid memories of me as an active person who is involved in their lives as I had of my grandmother and my children had of their grandmother."
The Heat Is On
Beryl Porter, 73, of Mancos, Colo., shares some of those fears. "Selfishly, I am worried that I am not going to see that baby when they decide to have it," Ms. Porter says of her son and his wife. Her concerns became exacerbated last year, when her husband Wil, 78, had a heart attack and a quadruple bypass.
"We are both very active, but things can change quickly at this age," Ms. Porter says.
Her son Trent Porter says he and his wife, Savannah, have tried to be "pretty honest and direct" with their parents about their plans for starting a family. In addition to developing his Denver financial-planning business, Mr. Porter, 34, says his wife, 29, is halfway through a three-year program to become a physician assistant. The two, who were married in August, also want to take time to travel to India and Nepal. Children are at least three years off.
Still, "the message from our parents is, 'There is never a perfect time to have children. You just need to make it happen,' " Mr. Porter says. "There is this underlying tone from the parents of, 'Well, your priorities are out of whack.' "
For her part, Beryl Porter says she understands that waiting to have children often makes economic sense. But she worries about the assumption that "a profession is more important" than family and says that waiting can backfire if it leads to fertility problems or inertia. "Sometimes when we get into a comfort zone, it becomes easier to stay in our comfort zone."
Kathryn Hill, 55, Savannah Porter's mother and a hospice nurse in Cañon City, Colo., says she takes pains not to pressure her daughter and son-in-law. But she, too, has concerns about the delay. "With the type of work I do, I see how health can change at a moment's notice," she says.
"Savannah says she wants to wait until she gets out of school and then take a year off before she even thinks about babies," she says. "Sometimes I think, 'Well, you can always get an education but you can't always have children.' "
Ms. Hill also raises what might be called the ugly-duckling issue. Older adults who are waiting—and waiting—for grandchildren frequently find themselves on the social sidelines, watching veteran grandparents happily head off to soccer games and school events. "All of my friends and sisters have grandchildren," she says. "I kind of feel, not like an outcast, but that I can't relate to them when we get together." Having grandchildren, she adds, would "make me feel like I am growing" as a person.
Some of the toughest times are holidays, says Atlanta resident Martha Tate, 68, an author and gardening blogger whose first grandchild is due to arrive later this year. "You get Christmas cards with all the grandchildren lined up—and you're still sending a card with your two grown girls and a dog," she says. Ms. Tate adds that she has been hesitant to talk with her daughters, ages 37 and 30, about grandchildren, worrying that she might appear selfish. But thoughts about when the day might come occupied her mind "more than I would ever let on," she says.
Her older daughter, Anne Tate Pearce, says she felt she "had permission to take my time" because Ms. Tate herself waited until she found the right person to marry. "It's a joy to now be able to share the excitement of expecting a baby with my mother and sister."
Her sister, Laura Tate, says, "I know my mother likes kids. But she never pressured us about liking a particular boyfriend we had. She doesn't express an opinion one way or another."
Should older adults mention the "G" word to their children? Amy Johnson, a life coach and psychologist in Canton, Mich., who works mainly with professional women in their late 30s and early 40s, says conversations can help—but cautions wannabe grandparents about the risks. While most of her clients don't like it when their parents bring up the topic of grandchildren, it can sometimes cause tension when they don't.
"For most of the women I work with, either their parents are wondering and pressuring them in subtle or overt ways," she says. "Or, in some cases, their parents don't ask questions, probably because they feel it is none of their business." Some women conclude their parents don't care about grandchildren or have no faith in their ability to be a good parent, Ms. Johnson adds.
Her advice to grandparents-in-waiting: Go ahead and ask your adult children questions, like "Do you want children?" and "What is your expected timetable?" But don't push your own agenda. "A lot of parents are pretty blunt. They say things like, 'I am getting older. When is this going to happen? I want to be able to enjoy those grandkids,' " Ms. Johnson says. But to adult children, she adds, that can feel like their parents are saying, " 'I'm going to die soon, and this is my dying wish.' It becomes a huge source of pressure."
Another Outlet
Georgia Witkin, a psychologist at RMA of New York LLP, a fertility clinic in New York, recommends that wannabe grandparents find other outlets for their frustrations. To that end, Mary Jane Horton—the 62-year-old writer—serves as a court-appointed advocate for a foster child, age 12.
"She's not a baby, but it still takes some of that energy that I want to put into a grandchild and devotes it to a child," Ms. Horton says. Among other duties, she speaks to the girl's therapist, social worker and doctor and goes to court hearings on her behalf. Beyond that, she says, "I see her two or three times a month. I take her to the movies. I am the one steady person she has had in her life."
Barbara LaGree, 64, of Albuquerque, N.M., says her advice is to "live your life and not wait on something that may or may not happen." As such, she and her 70-year-old husband, Brooks—while waiting for their son (37) and daughter (34) to have children—are "trying to do everything on our bucket list," she says. That includes travel to Banff in the Canadian Rockies this summer and to New Zealand next year.
"Hopefully, when we have grandchildren our kids will probably need us to help them," she says. "We want to be available to them when it happens, and I'm sure it will."
In an age of assisted reproductive technology, some grandparents-in-waiting are doing more than merely talking about grandchildren. Fertility clinics report that a growing number are helping adult children pay for treatments.
Dr. Witkin of New York's RMA fertility clinic says about one-third of the women who undergo the egg-freezing procedure at RMA come in with their parents, many of whom fully or partially underwrite the cost. (That figure typically ranges from $10,000 to $15,000, not including bills for medication and storage.)
Susan Kaplan, a financial planner in Newton, Mass., spent $30,000 last year so her daughter Diane Kaplan, 37, could freeze her eggs. "She no longer feels she has to put the pressure on herself to find Prince Charming in a timely way," says Ms. Kaplan. Nonetheless, Ms. Kaplan says parents should carefully consider the impact on their own nest eggs. Some of her clients have put their own retirements at risk because "helping to pay to freeze the eggs" proved to be "only step one."
Especially when egg-freezing enables women to become single parents, "somehow the unwritten contract becomes that 'We're all in this together,' " says Ms. Kaplan, who sees grandparents underwriting extras, like camps and special schools, that their daughters can't afford.
Some would-be grandparents and their adult children say the best they can do is recognize—and perhaps laugh about—the irony in the situation. No small number of today's would-be grandmothers delayed having children themselves as women started entering the workforce in greater numbers.
Now that their adult daughters are making the same decision, the logic doesn't always seem as sound as it did 30-plus years ago. Alice Waters, 69, says she began to feel a desire for grandchildren in her early 60s. For Ms. Waters—a cookbook author and owner of Chez Panisse, the renowned Berkeley, Calif., restaurant—the feeling "just kind of kicked in, just the way wanting a child did" when she was in her late 30s.
But while Ms. Waters's only child, Fanny Singer, 30, says she likes the idea of having children, both she and her mother acknowledge that Ms. Singer isn't ready to become a parent yet. Ms. Singer, who recently received a Ph.D. in art history from the University of Cambridge, lives with her partner, Sam Thorne, the recently appointed artistic director at the Tate St. Ives museum in Cornwall, England. While the couple intends to get married, both are currently focused on building their careers as art historians, writers and curators.
Ms. Singer says her mother occasionally makes teasing remarks like, "Anytime is a good time," and "If you have a child and you're too busy, you can just drop it off with me."
In response, Ms. Singer says: "I always gently remind her that if she wanted a grandchild earlier, she should have had me when she was younger."
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Re: Wannabe grandparents whinge on wsj.com April 14, 2014 | Registered: 12 years ago Posts: 5,632 |
Interesting how the article sidesteps the fact that the kids just might not want children of their own.
I think parents that have a really good relationship with their kids maybe get to ask about grandkids ONCE, at the most. And they have to be prepared for answers like "We're not having any" or "I have no idea" or "That's a personal topic". Then they let go and move on with their lives. Asking more than once is pushy and tacky. Their kids aren't there to provide them with grandkids. Their kids are there because the parents decided to have them. Period.
I think parents that have a really good relationship with their kids maybe get to ask about grandkids ONCE, at the most. And they have to be prepared for answers like "We're not having any" or "I have no idea" or "That's a personal topic". Then they let go and move on with their lives. Asking more than once is pushy and tacky. Their kids aren't there to provide them with grandkids. Their kids are there because the parents decided to have them. Period.
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Re: Wannabe grandparents whinge on wsj.com April 14, 2014 | Registered: 10 years ago Posts: 1,227 |
Where women in their 30s get pressure to have kids, women in their 50s or so with grown children get pressure to join the grandmoo club. I know my mother finds this hard, the questions about why she doesn't have grandkids. If she admits to people that I don't actually want children, she feels judged as a mother, people think I must have had a bad childhood or something to be so messed up I don't want children. She feels like people must think she did a bad job. Never mind that I have a postgraduate degree, a good job and a house,why don't I have BAYBEES?!
I kinda blame social pressure for this bullshit, I bet most men don't fret over being grandduhs. Men tend to get more about the continuing the genes stuff, whereas women want grandkids as a retirement project I reckon.
I kinda blame social pressure for this bullshit, I bet most men don't fret over being grandduhs. Men tend to get more about the continuing the genes stuff, whereas women want grandkids as a retirement project I reckon.
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Re: Wannabe grandparents whinge on wsj.com April 14, 2014 | Registered: 13 years ago Posts: 336 |
Oh, to have a nickel for every time I've heard, "Children are the investment, grandchildren are the dividends" (I could buy the darn Internet and keep these baying yahoos off).
Most parents hated child-raising and yearn for kids they can hand back at will. If the parents don't get grandkids, they're forced to admit they made a dead-loss investment.
Most parents hated child-raising and yearn for kids they can hand back at will. If the parents don't get grandkids, they're forced to admit they made a dead-loss investment.
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Re: Wannabe grandparents whinge on wsj.com April 14, 2014 | Registered: 12 years ago Posts: 1,788 |
My parents have known I am CF for several years, and they told me I was smart to realize that and not have them because once they are here you can't return them. I know they get asked about when I will be hatching them a grandkyd and they just tell people I'm not. I also know my parents get bingoed by other grandparents but they don't really care. This is one of the reasons I have a great relationship with my parents. Pressure for grandbrats has to put a strain on parents' relationship with their adult children.
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Re: Wannabe grandparents whinge on wsj.com April 14, 2014 | Registered: 13 years ago Posts: 1,735 |
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Re: Wannabe grandparents whinge on wsj.com April 14, 2014 | Registered: 13 years ago Posts: 2,975 |
Oh they are complaining that they will not be able to be "active" enough with the grandbrats if the kids don't get to breeding. Let's see, I remember my grandparents as nice old people, who I was taught to be respectful to and not to be loud, bratty or irritating around them. Grandma played cards with us, taught us to cook special family recipes, told stories, read to us, and gave us silver half dollars. Grandpa showed us how to grow tomatoes, took us for ice cream, played mandolin and taught us how to play with his cat without getting attacked.
I'm sure todays' wannbe grand parents would be disappointed with this level of activity and would prefer to take the grandkids white water rafting and base jumping. So sorry it isn't working out for them.
I'm sure todays' wannbe grand parents would be disappointed with this level of activity and would prefer to take the grandkids white water rafting and base jumping. So sorry it isn't working out for them.
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Re: Wannabe grandparents whinge on wsj.com April 14, 2014 | Registered: 18 years ago Posts: 9,973 |
I hate to say it, but this is one aspect of my life that I'm glad my mother is kinda sorta in agreement with. She has never hassled me for grandshits. I mean I could do without her obsession over my periods and sobbing if she can't find my tampons in the trash each month, but I would rather soak tampons in fake blood and plant them in the bathroom trash can than have her breathing down my neck about OMG grandbaybeeeez despite the fact I have no job. Even if I did want kids, I still would not have them. I would not subject a kid that doesn't ask to be born to my mother's horse shit. She already fucked me up. She won't get the chance to do it to someone else.
Why can't these whiny wannabe grandparents find other ways to occupy their time, like pursuing hobbies or traveling or helping other non-kin children in some way? Why is this so unheard of? Apparently it doesn't occur to them that their own kids might not be putting off breeding until a certain time...that those kids may simply just not want to breed. The grown kids don't owe their parents a goddamn thing. If they need grandshits so bad, they can adopt a teen girl and see if she'll get knocked up for them. It won't be related by blood, but it'll still be a legal grandchild.
The wannabe grandparents seem to act just like young idiot breeders. "Oh we want a cute widdle baybee to play with!" But they also get that, unlike having kids of their own, they CAN give the kid back when they're sick of it. I wonder what these fuckers would say or do if their reluctant children said, "I'll give you a grandchild only if you adopt it." How many would agree to grandshits if the only way they could get one is if they agree to raise it like a son or daughter?
All hope is not lost, for there will always be plenty of irresponsible teenagers who get knocked up and make their own mommies and daddies raise the child.
Why can't these whiny wannabe grandparents find other ways to occupy their time, like pursuing hobbies or traveling or helping other non-kin children in some way? Why is this so unheard of? Apparently it doesn't occur to them that their own kids might not be putting off breeding until a certain time...that those kids may simply just not want to breed. The grown kids don't owe their parents a goddamn thing. If they need grandshits so bad, they can adopt a teen girl and see if she'll get knocked up for them. It won't be related by blood, but it'll still be a legal grandchild.
The wannabe grandparents seem to act just like young idiot breeders. "Oh we want a cute widdle baybee to play with!" But they also get that, unlike having kids of their own, they CAN give the kid back when they're sick of it. I wonder what these fuckers would say or do if their reluctant children said, "I'll give you a grandchild only if you adopt it." How many would agree to grandshits if the only way they could get one is if they agree to raise it like a son or daughter?
All hope is not lost, for there will always be plenty of irresponsible teenagers who get knocked up and make their own mommies and daddies raise the child.
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Re: Wannabe grandparents whinge on wsj.com April 14, 2014 | Registered: 13 years ago Posts: 12,434 |
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evilchildlessbitch
My parents have known I am CF for several years, and they told me I was smart to realize that and not have them because once they are here you can't return them. I know they get asked about when I will be hatching them a grandkyd and they just tell people I'm not. I also know my parents get bingoed by other grandparents but they don't really care. This is one of the reasons I have a great relationship with my parents. Pressure for grandbrats has to put a strain on parents' relationship with their adult children.
That's my situation as well. My parents know, I've never made a secret of it, and they've found other ways to fulfill any child-related desires they have. They've never pressured me or so much as asked, although my mother sometimes tells me about the grandparent bingos she gets and how she handles them, and we laugh a little over how nosy and pushy people can be. She's never been someone to live through her children, so why would she want to start living through grandchildren?
This is certainly a factor in my good relationship with my parents.
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Re: Wannabe grandparents whinge on wsj.com April 14, 2014 | Registered: 11 years ago Posts: 769 |
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Re: Wannabe grandparents whinge on wsj.com April 14, 2014 | Registered: 13 years ago Posts: 2,975 |
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Re: Wannabe grandparents whinge on wsj.com April 14, 2014 | Registered: 13 years ago Posts: 12,035 |
That, and the futility of relying on another person (or persons) for your own happiness. Breeders are the greediest, neediest people around.
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"[GFG's pregnancy is] kind of like at the stables where that one dumb, ugly-ass mare broke out of her corral one day and got herself screwed by the equally fugly colt that was due to be gelded the same afternoon."- Shiny
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"[GFG's pregnancy is] kind of like at the stables where that one dumb, ugly-ass mare broke out of her corral one day and got herself screwed by the equally fugly colt that was due to be gelded the same afternoon."- Shiny
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Re: Wannabe grandparents whinge on wsj.com April 14, 2014 | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 2,218 |
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GMAFB
Ms. Hill also raises what might be called the ugly-duckling issue. Older adults who are waiting—and waiting—for grandchildren frequently find themselves on the social sidelines, watching veteran grandparents happily head off to soccer games and school events. "All of my friends and sisters have grandchildren," she says. "I kind of feel, not like an outcast, but that I can't relate to them when we get together." Having grandchildren, she adds, would "make me feel like I am growing" as a person.
AWWW, don't you guys feel sooo sorry for the wanna grandmoos and grandpeepaws?
How selfish can these breeders get - they rely on their own sprogs to make even MORE sprogs so they feel like they can "grow as people"? You're already 60+ fucking years old, get a hobby, do some traveling, SOMETHING to keep your bizzy-body mind off of your kids' reproductive organs. Good lord!
Fellow CFers, aren't you sad that one of these days you won't be able to "relate" to other breeders and be able to "grow as a person" like they have? I hope by the time I'm old there will be CF-only retirement communities!
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Re: Wannabe grandparents whinge on wsj.com April 14, 2014 | Registered: 12 years ago Posts: 1,788 |
These will be the same people who will complain that their kyds don't come to see them and will not realize that they have driven their own children away by being over-involved in a very private decision. As has been said before, these people need to be responsible for their own happiness. Unless a person has faced a truly catastrophic event, it is up to them to make changes. People in a concentration camp, I would say truly can't do anything to change their lives. Not being able to get your children to breed? Get over it.
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Re: Wannabe grandparents whinge on wsj.com April 14, 2014 | Registered: 13 years ago Posts: 5,716 |
Why can't they ADOPT some more kids for themselves?
Foster Parenting?
Volunteering with kids org's?
NO! We're supposed to be Followers on the Same Lifescipt Path as these Other Geezers - therefor we Low here at one of the Feed Troughs of Life.
Get a hobby or something, why don't you?
Like kids? Um - opportunities abound.
eyes2
Foster Parenting?
Volunteering with kids org's?
NO! We're supposed to be Followers on the Same Lifescipt Path as these Other Geezers - therefor we Low here at one of the Feed Troughs of Life.
Get a hobby or something, why don't you?
Like kids? Um - opportunities abound.
eyes2|
Re: Wannabe grandparents whinge on wsj.com April 14, 2014 | Registered: 12 years ago Posts: 5,632 |
Quote
blondie
Oh they are complaining that they will not be able to be "active" enough with the grandbrats if the kids don't get to breeding. Let's see, I remember my grandparents as nice old people, who I was taught to be respectful to and not to be loud, bratty or irritating around them. Grandma played cards with us, taught us to cook special family recipes, told stories, read to us, and gave us silver half dollars. Grandpa showed us how to grow tomatoes, took us for ice cream, played mandolin and taught us how to play with his cat without getting attacked.
I'm sure todays' wannbe grand parents would be disappointed with this level of activity and would prefer to take the grandkids white water rafting and base jumping. So sorry it isn't working out for them.
I was thinking along those lines, too, blondie. My mom's parents let us ride the old vintage bikes that were in the shed (I think they'd belonged to my mom/her sibs!) in the muggy, hot midwest summer. Grandmother would pour us iced tea when we came back in all hot and sweaty. But she didn't ride with us. Nor did we expect her to. Mom's dad let us watch and assist on his eleventy million workworking projects. He taught me to use a drill press, a jeweler's saw, and a few hand tools. He'd clown around with us in the yard a bit, but most of the physical play and rough-housing was with my youngest uncle, not with Granddad. We viewed them as sweet old people who treated us kindly and occasionally gave us treats we didn't get at home. We didn't care that they weren't out on the lawn playing soccer with us or running 10Ks. We had friends and younger relatives for those things.
And my mom's parents weren't "older" grandparents when we came along. I think my grandmother would have been about 50 when my sister arrived, and 55 when I came along. It's okay for grandparents to do more sedate things with their grandkids.
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Re: Wannabe grandparents whinge on wsj.com April 14, 2014 | Registered: 10 years ago Posts: 619 |
It's amazing how goofy wannabe-grandparents get. I only remember Mom's parents and they were in their 60's when I was born, though I was their last grandchild. They lived about 500 miles away, too, so my siblings and I got to see them about once a year. They occasionally made the trip to see us, but it was easier for Mom and Dad to take us ( and no flights, we're talking your basic long car trip). We treated them with respect because of their age, we didn't rough-house or do wild stuff with them. Yes, I wish I had known them better, but them's the breaks. We kids loved them and knew they loved us.
Btw, I tried to read the whole article, but it was too barftastic to finish. Damn...:Violin
Btw, I tried to read the whole article, but it was too barftastic to finish. Damn...:Violin
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Re: Wannabe grandparents whinge on wsj.com April 15, 2014 | Registered: 11 years ago Posts: 538 |
Wow. Those wannabe grandparents need to get a life. Srsly.
“To that end, Mary Jane Horton—the 62-year-old writer—serves as a court-appointed advocate for a foster child, age 12.
"She's not a baby, but it still takes some of that energy that I want to put into a grandchild and devotes it to a child," Ms. Horton says. Among other
duties, she speaks to the girl's therapist, social worker and doctor and goes to court hearings on her behalf. Beyond that, she says, "I see her two or
three times a month. I take her to the movies. I am the one steady person she has had in her life."
Fostering children is a good idea. However, she’s still not a cute wittle baybeee, so wannabe grandmoo is not satisfied. Have you noticed that these wannabe grandbreeders only want babies and not children? As soon as the kids reach an age where they gain some independence, they quickly lose interest and focus on the new loaf until that one loses its “cutenessâ€, and so on and so forth.
I know my mom has expressed that she wants grandchildren, but I made it pretty clear she’s not getting any from me. Unless of course they’re the four-legged variety.
Also, I wonder if these grandbreeders are aware that their own kids might use the grandchildren as an excuse not to take care of them in their old age.
“Sorry Ma, I can’t come visit you today. Ashleigh has a piano recital and Kayden is going to get his braces on.â€
Meanwhile, that shit happened three weeks ago.
“To that end, Mary Jane Horton—the 62-year-old writer—serves as a court-appointed advocate for a foster child, age 12.
"She's not a baby, but it still takes some of that energy that I want to put into a grandchild and devotes it to a child," Ms. Horton says. Among other
duties, she speaks to the girl's therapist, social worker and doctor and goes to court hearings on her behalf. Beyond that, she says, "I see her two or
three times a month. I take her to the movies. I am the one steady person she has had in her life."
Fostering children is a good idea. However, she’s still not a cute wittle baybeee, so wannabe grandmoo is not satisfied. Have you noticed that these wannabe grandbreeders only want babies and not children? As soon as the kids reach an age where they gain some independence, they quickly lose interest and focus on the new loaf until that one loses its “cutenessâ€, and so on and so forth.
I know my mom has expressed that she wants grandchildren, but I made it pretty clear she’s not getting any from me. Unless of course they’re the four-legged variety.
Also, I wonder if these grandbreeders are aware that their own kids might use the grandchildren as an excuse not to take care of them in their old age.
“Sorry Ma, I can’t come visit you today. Ashleigh has a piano recital and Kayden is going to get his braces on.â€
Meanwhile, that shit happened three weeks ago.
Anonymous User
Re: Wannabe grandparents whinge on wsj.com April 16, 2014 |
Attention lurking breeders, wanna-grandparents, forced birthers, oligarchs of the WSJ, etc.: People are having fewer kids. More and more people are opting out entirely. Deal with it. That is a GOOD thing. Fewer unwanted abused children, fewer people draining dwindling resources, cleaner air and water and higher wages for a smaller population. The elitists at the WSJ hate it because they'll have to pay their workers and household servants more but fuck them.
No one owes anyone else a child for any reason. Period.
No one owes anyone else a child for any reason. Period.
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Re: Wannabe grandparents whinge on wsj.com April 17, 2014 | Registered: 11 years ago Posts: 1,469 |
Yes. When I lost the toddler "cuteness". they had my brother.Now they want the "cute" grand babies. Am I expected to birf on demand, every time a kid grows past toddlerhood?Quote
efsb
Wow. Those wannabe grandparents need to get a life. Srsly.
“To that end, Mary Jane Horton—the 62-year-old writer—serves as a court-appointed advocate for a foster child, age 12.
"She's not a baby, but it still takes some of that energy that I want to put into a grandchild and devotes it to a child," Ms. Horton says. Among other
duties, she speaks to the girl's therapist, social worker and doctor and goes to court hearings on her behalf. Beyond that, she says, "I see her two or
three times a month. I take her to the movies. I am the one steady person she has had in her life."
Fostering children is a good idea. However, she’s still not a cute wittle baybeee, so wannabe grandmoo is not satisfied. Have you noticed that these wannabe grandbreeders only want babies and not children? As soon as the kids reach an age where they gain some independence, they quickly lose interest and focus on the new loaf until that one loses its “cutenessâ€, and so on and so forth.
I know my mom has expressed that she wants grandchildren, but I made it pretty clear she’s not getting any from me. Unless of course they’re the four-legged variety.
Also, I wonder if these grandbreeders are aware that their own kids might use the grandchildren as an excuse not to take care of them in their old age.
“Sorry Ma, I can’t come visit you today. Ashleigh has a piano recital and Kayden is going to get his braces on.â€
Meanwhile, that shit happened three weeks ago.
These wanna grands could start volunteer groups. Pair them with breeders who want casseroles, someone to hold the kid so they can take a shower. Put their experience with colics to good use. As for those who want grandbrats to spoil, why not spoil your adult children a little. "You cant always get what you want" is something they told us over and over. Yet they were disappointed to birf kids that were not athletic, blue-eyed blond cherubs. No grandsprogs. Too bad, so sad. Travel the world a little, get some hobbies, enjoy your retirement. If they had been wise enough to avoid the lifescript, they would be content with being alive, healthy, and have retirement money. I have one aunt who's childfree. Very loving, always available to talk, in person or on the phone. She enjoys her adult nieces and nephews. She was my strongest support when I had alcohol problems, and my parents would not talk to me. The family who babysat me from 1 to 8, loved me like their own, and we contact each other frequently.They accept my choice. I had to learn as a kid, to get affection from other sources. And I'll be damned if I were to wreck my body and life to placate and please my indifferent parents.
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Re: Wannabe grandparents whinge on wsj.com April 17, 2014 | Registered: 12 years ago Posts: 5,632 |
Also I'd like to add that this article makes me SO grateful to have sane parents who leave me alone about this shit. I basically had one conversation apiece with Dad and Mom, and if they have problems with the zero-grandkids status they sure seem to keep it to themselves. Dad's busy with work and doing projects in his house; mom's volunteering at the library, taking a drumming class, and doing shit-tons of stuff with her friends. SO glad they're not like the whiny saps in this article!
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Re: Wannabe grandparents whinge on wsj.com April 17, 2014 | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 6,607 |
Quote
barren4ever
Yes. When I lost the toddler "cuteness". they had my brother.Now they want the "cute" grand babies. Am I expected to birf on demand, every time a kid grows past toddlerhood?
Sounds like my mom. My sisters were initially fine about introducing their babies to Grandma, thinking that the old woman had mellowed with age by the joy she displayed. Mom's pleasure with the next generation dissipated as the kids grew out of the bobble head stage and they started acting human. Then she became dismissive, followed by abusive. Later grandkids were not allowed to be around her except for Christmas or her birthday. Now that those grandkids are grown and producing their own offspring, Mom is never even notified that a pregnancy has started or that she has great-grandkids.
Seems to me that it's a malignant form of narcissism. I often wonder if Ma Duggar doesn't possess the same disorder. She thrilled with each pregnancy, was agog at each birth and the early stages of the child's life, but passed the kid to an elder sibling to raise once it became mobile and she was again pregnant. Now that she is seemingly passed childbearing age, I bet her interest will be with the anticipated grandchildren, being happy with each new birth but losing interest and moving on when a new kid is hatched.
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Re: Wannabe grandparents whinge on wsj.com April 17, 2014 | Registered: 11 years ago Posts: 3,056 |
I'm an only child, and my parents have totally RESENTED me because I never had children.
They have been outright hostile to me for the last 12 years because of it.
My mom's sister and brother each have several grandkids, and so my mom sees me as a total disappointment and failure to her.
I have stopped communicating with my parents for the past two years because they are impossible to deal with.
They were nasty and demeaning to me whenever they could get the chance.
And the main reason they did this is because they are upset that I'm CF.
Yeah, wanting grandkids makes some of these older folks batshit crazy.
My parents are a textbook example of that happening.
~~~~~~~~~~~
I miss my little feather baby.
They have been outright hostile to me for the last 12 years because of it.
My mom's sister and brother each have several grandkids, and so my mom sees me as a total disappointment and failure to her.
I have stopped communicating with my parents for the past two years because they are impossible to deal with.
They were nasty and demeaning to me whenever they could get the chance.
And the main reason they did this is because they are upset that I'm CF.
Yeah, wanting grandkids makes some of these older folks batshit crazy.
My parents are a textbook example of that happening.
~~~~~~~~~~~
I miss my little feather baby.
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Re: Wannabe grandparents whinge on wsj.com April 17, 2014 | Registered: 12 years ago Posts: 556 |
Quote
blondie
Oh they are complaining that they will not be able to be "active" enough with the grandbrats if the kids don't get to breeding. Let's see, I remember my grandparents as nice old people, who I was taught to be respectful to and not to be loud, bratty or irritating around them. Grandma played cards with us, taught us to cook special family recipes, told stories, read to us, and gave us silver half dollars. Grandpa showed us how to grow tomatoes, took us for ice cream, played mandolin and taught us how to play with his cat without getting attacked.
I'm sure todays' wannbe grand parents would be disappointed with this level of activity and would prefer to take the grandkids white water rafting and base jumping. So sorry it isn't working out for them.
I agree. These are the people who raised today's desperate-to-be-cool parents (who want to follow the LifeScript yet never give up any aspect of their pre-child life) so it only makes sense that they'd want to the be the fun, Jeep-driving grandparents who have Instagram accounts and take the grandkids to Bruno Mars concerts.
There's nothing wrong with doing any of those things, but our youth-worshipping culture has so many adults trying to earn younger people's respect by trying to keep up with them and being "hip" and never acting "old." Add to that the expectation that lots of kids have of always being entertained and catered to and you end up with not only parents that want to be their kids' friends, but grandparents who want to get in on the act too.
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Re: Wannabe grandparents whinge on wsj.com April 17, 2014 | Registered: 12 years ago Posts: 1,449 |
Quote
drake
I'm an only child, and my parents have totally RESENTED me because I never had children.
They have been outright hostile to me for the last 12 years because of it.
My mom's sister and brother each have several grandkids, and so my mom sees me as a total disappointment and failure to her.
I have stopped communicating with my parents for the past two years because they are impossible to deal with.
I am glad that you no longer associate with your breeders. I am so tired of seeing people get dogged by their pahrunts and still associating with them.
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"I have found little that is 'good' about human beings on the whole. In my experience most of them are trash, no matter whether they publicly subscribe to this or that ethical doctrine or to none at all."
~Sigmund Freud
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