Population: Where are the doctors in all this? Why don't they help?

(mods move to Patio if appropriate)

Lately, I read here about doctors who don't do operations or give out birth control and the population has doubled. Are there any doctors (physicians) on this board? My question is how do people who have studied science almost all their life could not know about population effects and not do anything about them. After all, they are in a unique position to help women stop being pregnant. Primary care physicians can prescribe birth control and GYNs can do operations. Why don't doctors suggest to a woman after having her second child to have a tubal ligation? Why don't some doctors or medical students go to an inner city clinic and do birth control counseling for women? It seems to me a lot of the doctors are after money, but if someone just wants to make money in their life, can't they be a stockbroker (a lot less bloody too)? How can doctors who are supposed to have learned so much possibly want the world to be overpopulated?

Simple answer... Lawsuits... and 'anything for more money' If they tie the tubes then the woman won't be coming back next time she's knocked up... or may sue that the doctor 'forced' her to have it. Once a year poke and stick at the GYN and she's good to go. If they suggest that a women get a tubal then that is considered unprofessional. Doctors are even slow to suggest that a woman should not get inpig. Afraid of malpractice suits or that the woman will go to another doctor. yep...doctors like to keep their patients.. in such a condition that they'll always need them. (don't even get me started on Rx meds and the overuse of them) Have a friend who was 50 lbs overweight. Her doctor never said a word about her loosing weight... till she got to be about 75 lbs over.. and now... she's 100 lbs overweight. She's on pills for one thing that cause another thing that aggrivated another thing.......... Doctors!!!! (any dr's reading this...maybe there are still a few good ones left.. but I don't know any. My dentist is great though)

I would say there are two reasons, really and much of it doesn't have to do with doctors:

1. doctors can't be responsible for peoples' stupidity. Based on which study you read, the "unintended pregnancy" rate is anywhere from 40-70 percent. Gee, it appears people don't actually realize that fucking causes babies.

Look at this
which discusses a recent study. (WARNING: Ugly Preggo belly shot.)

Notable quote regarding stupidity:

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who are these stupid cunts?
"Basically what that suggests is that many women think that because they have not used a method and have not gotten pregnant in two or three or four acts of intercourse that they're sterile. And of course, that's not how it works," he said.

:

More statistics:

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About 23 percent of married women had an unintended pregnancy,compared with 50 percent of unmarried women who were living with their baby's father and 67 percent of unmarried women not living with the baby's father.

Editor's note: Sounds like an oopsie to me. Lurking CF-leaning males, beware.

More stupidity:

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Nearly 77 percent of teens' pregnancies were unintended, compared with 50 percent of women ages 20 to 24 and 25 percent of women ages 25 to 44.

Almost 17 percent of women with a college degree had unintended pregnancies, compared with 41 percent of women without a high school diploma.

Nearly 54 percent of black women reported an unintended pregnancy, compared with 43 percent of Hispanic women and about 31 percent of white women.

2, Pronatalist fundies of many religions are regularly allowed to fuck up medicine with their no-basis-in-science crap: i.e.birth control pills and IUDs cause abortion, etc. Or pressuring lawmakers to pass laws requiring insurance coverage for IVF, which is not medical treatment and cures nothing.

Also they are allowed to fuck up laws with their conscientious objection bullshit. Not to mention harrassing doctors who perform abortions, shooting them and bombing clinics.

3. And there are asshole doctors too. I met many doctors over the years who wouldn't even consider a hysterectomy on a nullipara woman. Sometimes hysterectomy is the best treatment and it should be offered to women as an option. Same with tubal ligations.

And I read articles all the time about young, nullipara women with estrogen positive cancer who don't get their ovaries removed and have baybees a couple of years later, because a doctor wasn't straight with her and blew sunshine up her ass. Maybe this is a combination of #3 and #1.

I don't think physicians generally think about issues like overpopulation in terms of how they do their jobs. Telling someone to not have kids or stop having kids may be considered overstepping certain ethical boundaries. There are people who believe telling poor folks not to have so many kids is eugenics.

In our culture (in the US), having children is considered a "right", while access to health care is not. It's only a right if you are pregnant and/or have kids - then you're entitled to sorts of free medical benefits on Medicaid. A CF/CL person who loses his or her health insurance is screwed in this country. Plus there are whole industries in health care built on shuffling money from the taxpayer to the irresponsible breeder. A few years ago I read about a charity/teaching hospital in Texas that was fancying up their maternity ward in order to attract more Medicaid dollars, since apparently preggos on Medicaid can go to any hospital they want for whelping.

So, these are just a few reasons. Also a lot of (male) doctors are also serial breeders who, because of their income and status, tend to "trade up" in the wife department over time, and of course each new wife has to make "one of our own".

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Ketchup
So, these are just a few reasons. Also a lot of (male) doctors are also serial breeders who, because of their income and status, tend to "trade up" in the wife department over time, and of course each new wife has to make "one of our own".

This, this THIS. Lots of breeder docs with trophy wives/famblees and geezer breeding with upgrades. Plenty of scientists/engineers are also breeders.

One time I got taken to a Christmas fair at this church, it was a big Christian church, then the person I'm with takes me to the back room for some snacks. It turns out there is a big pot luck dinner going on there and I saw all these doctors I knew, praying and shit. Nothing wrong with praying in church but I was surprised how damn many doctors were there. I worked in the medical field at the time so I recognized them. Their trophy wives and loud kids were running around, I wanted to kill the woman who took me there, it was so very breeder central. Those guys were not going to be helping any women not breed, that's for sure.

1. Doctors are not going to put themselves out of business. The more sickly brats that are born, the more economic security for them. An allergist is not going to encourage his patients to stop breeding and making more sickly brats who are allergic to everything under the sun.

2. Breeders are worshipped in this culture. If you don't breed, you are nothing. Doctors don't want to be responsible for denying you the chance to breed due to this. They already know the truth...a woman is worthless in this culture unless she is a mooother.

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"I have found little that is 'good' about human beings on the whole. In my experience most of them are trash, no matter whether they publicly subscribe to this or that ethical doctrine or to none at all."
~Sigmund Freud

The job of a doctor is to heal the sick, no more, no less.

Scientists are the ones who should be critical of overpopulation, and actuaries should be honest in their predictions--namely on the sustainability of government entitlements like Social Security and Medicare.

Most people think in the short-term.

The reality is that we're headed into a future where...

• Automation will rule the world. The era of decent-wage jobs for the masses is quickly coming to an end.
• With a greater number of elderly people and a shrinking young population, programs for old folks are not going to be sustainable in the long-term. However, older folks will outnumber [and outvote] younger workers, and will vote in politicians which will guarantee nanny-state gub'mint benefits, however undeserved.
• Younger, skilled workers will eventually rebel against these programs [which go directly to the elderly--and which they themselves will never benefit from]. Tax rates will increase substantially to fund these programs, and so the younger workers will find ways to work off-the-books or cheat the system in other ways, if possible.

Well, for one thing, a lot of doctors are right wing forced birther fanatics. For another, in order to get to good, scientific information on overpopulation you have to wade through a whole bunch of pro-loafshitting bullshit. The denial on this topic is deep. People gotta have their mini-mes and don't you dare tell them they can't! Doctors and other scientifically-trained people are not necessarily immune to it.

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peace-n-quiet
2. Breeders are worshipped in this culture. If you don't breed, you are nothing. Doctors don't want to be responsible for denying you the chance to breed due to this. They already know the truth...a woman is worthless in this culture unless she is a mooother.

Ain't that the fucking truth! I got so tired of my doctors ASSuming I wanted loaves and cared about my "precious" fertility. I remember not getting a prescription I asked for because it had a slight risk of birth defects. Since I'd hightail it to the abortion clinic if I ever got pregnant it made no difference to me but she was adamant about my not getting it. One of the benefits of being in my 40s is that no one gives a shit about my breeding potential anymore. I'm just a sad cautionary tale to them now. What the fuck ever.

There's no money in sterilization procedures - not for doctors.

Hospital births, otoh, well that's how these docs get rich.

What I don't understand is how does one go through HS/College with a science major/Medical school and then not know that if the world cannot support all the people they are not going to have any patients at all? I also wonder if there are more religion classes now than in say the 70s.

I don't think it would be unprofessional to make the offer of a tubal ligation after a woman has had her 2nd child. She doesn't have to take the offer. It is kind of like when doctors ask the family of a deceased for an organ donation (I know most of you are against that) the family can say no but why not make the offer?

Another example is if a woman feels badly depressed because of bingos all the time, a psychiatrist can possibly help her by telling her that a life without the kids can be fulfilling and it is not a tragedy as bingoers make it out to be.

A primary care physician can give out birth control information and what about all the medical students and volunteers who go out among the homeless, surely they can provide family planning that would actually help the poor.

I say doctors are in a unique position, because they can prescribe medicines and do operations. Who else is going to do that? I don't think women are going to start doing tubal ligations and hysterectomies in their garages. I don't think there is a safe way to do a do-it-yourself abortion. Doctors can save the world but choose not to do it.

Oh and you are all right about engineers. For decades, I did not even know what engineering was because the men who were engineers in our neighborhood were all devout Catholics who made good money and had a lot of kids and we knew them to be (rude) ushers in the church. I had no idea what they did for work.

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mr. neptune


I say doctors are in a unique position, because they can prescribe medicines and do operations. Who else is going to do that? I don't think women are going to start doing tubal ligations and hysterectomies in their garages. I don't think there is a safe way to do a do-it-yourself abortion. Doctors can save the world but choose not to do it.

I'm not sure what your personal experiences with doctors were, but the doctors I know bust their asses and save people on a regular basis. And this is after years of going into debt to cover their medical school expenses, and working many long, grueling hours to gain full licensure.

Their job isn't to save the world--their job is to save the patient in front of them.

If you don't like doctors, that's your privilege... but keep in mind that they're the ones you'll be calling on to save you, perhaps literally, when you need medical attention.

I didn't say I didn't like doctors, we have one in our family* What I am saying is that the time to do what I suggest above is minimal and can do the patients a lot of good. What does the debt and long hours have to do with it? Unfortunately, I cannot snip myself - If I could, would be done a long time ago.

*The doctor in our family is my brother in law Jupy, the one I have referred to in past threads. Unfortunately, his mother is a real "bingo lady" but my sister stopped at 2 girls.

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bell_flower
3. And there are asshole doctors too. I met many doctors over the years who wouldn't even consider a hysterectomy on a nullipara woman. Sometimes hysterectomy is the best treatment and it should be offered to women as an option. Same with tubal ligations.

Hell, when I was barely 21 and my husband had just graduated from college (this was back when dinosaurs still roamed the earth), I had an OB/GYN who tried to trick me into getting pregnant by telling me I had fibroids, and if I didn't get pregnant sometime in the next year or so, I'd never be able to have a baby at *all*. First thing I did was make an appointment with another OB/GYN who opined that I had *NO* fibroids *at all* (which, or course was true in the long run). The first OB/GYN turned out to have been an old Mormon who evidently thought that now that my husband was through school it was time for me to breed. I didn't do anything, but I wish now I'd reported him to the AMA and the Arizona Physician's Licensing Board and got his license to practice pulled. My experience over the years is that there were more OB/GYN's like him than not. Never did find one who would do a tubal on me, never mind my having begged for one on my fucking *knees*.

I think is because of the pro-natalist culture we live in and also to some extent because of the money. In Finland healthcare is not expensive in the public sector. I'm a student and i pay like 45€ per year and get all consultations free, the dentist costs a bit but it's not an exaggerated price. If you go to public healthcare it's like 15€ per visit. We also have private sector but that's expensive. The only downside with public healthcare is that you can wait up to 3 months for a doctor to see you and even 1 year for a surgery.

What i have noticed is that i live in the most religious area of Finland and women have around 3+ kids here. Being childfree is not the trend at all. I'm in a Finnish CF group on FB and lots of women were turned down for sterilizations even if they were over 30 (the legal age to get sterilized according to Finnish law). And this all over Finland not only in my region. One woman said that a doctor refused to renew her pill prescription. She was 29 then and the doctor decided that it's time for her to have kids and sent her away without any prescription. Some women needed their husband to sign the sterilization approval because doctors wouldn't do it otherwise.

I don't know if it is relevant but usually these assholes OB/GYNS tend to be older men and sometimes women.

From what the ladies talked in that group it didn't have to do with overpopulation but with the deep ingrained idea that all women want kids and all women must have kids because that's what women are made for.

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StudioFiftyFour
[*] With a greater number of elderly people and a shrinking young population, programs for old folks are not going to be sustainable in the long-term. However, older folks will outnumber [and outvote] younger workers, and will vote in politicians which will guarantee nanny-state gub'mint benefits, however undeserved.

Wouldn't having more old people actually be better for old people? Not because of their numbers, but because of the subtle agism that sort of exists now. Women are viewed mainly in light of their youth and fertility, not their brains and experience as they get older. You become a burden once you live past an a certain age. You want to work at a job past retirement age because you can't afford to (or don't want to) retire? Then you are considered 'selfish' and taking a job away from a younger person. I might be wrong, but I'm guessing that many take Medicare because it's there (the 'old age bennie') and that they chose to retire, not because they need it immediately per se. Plus once they retire many old people inevitably start to sit on their asses and become sedentary (the ones that become 'burdens') which is why ones I seen still working continue to do so, they told me "You sit around, you start to 'rust.'

Plus in other cultures years ago, being old was a good thing, it meant that you could pass on valuable experience (since you've seen almost everything and lived to tell about it) and not considered a 'burden.'

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nightfire

Wouldn't having more old people actually be better for old people? Not because of their numbers, but because of the subtle agism that sort of exists now. Women are viewed mainly in light of their youth and fertility, not their brains and experience as they get older. You become a burden once you live past an a certain age. You want to work at a job past retirement age because you can't afford to (or don't want to) retire? Then you are considered 'selfish' and taking a job away from a younger person. I might be wrong, but I'm guessing that many take Medicare because it's there (the 'old age bennie') and that they chose to retire, not because they need it immediately per se. Plus once they retire many old people inevitably start to sit on their asses and become sedentary (the ones that become 'burdens') which is why ones I seen still working continue to do so, they told me "You sit around, you start to 'rust.'

Plus in other cultures years ago, being old was a good thing, it meant that you could pass on valuable experience (since you've seen almost everything and lived to tell about it) and not considered a 'burden.'

All good points.

I don't care why they take the benefits or when they take them. The reality is that these "benefits" are paid for by young workers, there's nothing but a bunch of worthless gub'mint "IOUs" in the trust funds, and these programs are destined to fail.

The answer isn't stealing more money from young workers, who will invariably figure out ways to cheat the system and work under the table when and where they can.

There is not a stigma against young people not working, or working just enough to get by, on the lowest income they can and adjusting the income to get free or low cost medical care or any other programs that might pop up. I hear about them wanting to travel low budget and not settle down or own a car or home. My cousin lives like that, works under the table jobs and travels, and there is a network of people who do that. He is not contributing to any government programs but if he gets sick or can't make ends meet he will expect to use the system. He has a lot of girlfriends internationally, so this lifestyle is working for him right now.

Peace-N-Quiet said: "1. Doctors are not going to put themselves out of business. The more sickly brats that are born, the more economic security for them. An allergist is not going to encourage his patients to stop breeding and making more sickly brats who are allergic to everything under the sun."

Excellent insight. This explains why in-vitro fertilization continues full speed ahead even though more evidence is appearing that kyds born using it are much more sickly and prone to major health issues. Hadn't thought of this angle before.

Just as with pharmacists, we're hearing more about doctors who want to exercise "conscience" when it comes to prescribing contraceptive pills and devices and performing sterilizations. There is not a doubt in my mind that many doctors are closet Bible–thumpers as Blondie and Skyeyes described firsthand.

I am not a physician, but I am a registered nurse and the people who have said legal liability were all right on the mark. A physician will never tell someone that they must do this or that, it has to legally be advice as long as the patient isn't being ordered into care (e.g. like a psychiatric hospital or facility for directly observed tuberculosis therapy).

Health care ethics are simple. I was taught that there were three elements: a) do no harm (primum no nocere); 2) disclosure of all relevant risks and benefits; and 3) respect for patient or representative (e.g. medical power of attorney) choice and decision. Some add a fourth, social justice, but that's after my time.

In a nutshell, that means health care practitioners can only recommend what is good for the patient, tell them about what the problem(s) and solution(s) might be and then respect their choice. Doesn't mean we have to provide for everything (e.g. a podiatrist won't be doing open heart surgery or a plastic surgeon won't be doing eye exams), but it also means we have to give them alternatives and let the decision(s) be theirs. Unforntunately, reproduction falls under a protected category where we can't tell them no more brats.

Okay.. Dr can't say 'no mor brats' but they can 'suggest' no more pregnancies and explain how it could hurt the mother. Ofcourse it's up to the patent as to what they want to do.. but the dr CAN suggest. I have friends who's dr's suggested that they not have any more and... some of them did.. but it was not without risk. Eh.. I'd hate to be in the health field 'cause I'd tell em all STOP BREEDING YOU COW!!!

What the fuckity fuck is going on here??

Total spammer. A breeder spammer at that! smile

Ohduhdwaaaah needs to go fuck himself with a rusty chainsaw. :hardcore

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mumofsixbirds
What the fuckity fuck is going on here??

A very misguided Miss Cleo for infertility. Spam scam and banned.

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