Prudie: My late wife was childfree but never told me

Thoughts on this?

If the death is recent, they married in the early 70s. Both Catholic, it appears that both held fast to their faith (with her, it was at least the tenants. She certainly broke some of the major rules). I'm not in the least religious, so when I think "she should have told her husband at some point" I know I'm not acknowledging the conflict she faced. And I feel supremely annoyed that anyone would let religion rule and be the cause of such unhappiness - but that's the freethinker in me casting judgement.

Overall, I feel sorry for the couple but pissed at them as well. Such unhappiness because they allowed religion to hold sway over their lives.

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Dear Prudence,
My wife of 43 years died an excruciating death from lung cancer in April. We were childless, which I thought was a sorrow to both of us but I was wrong. We are simple people who never consulted a doctor or fertility clinic about the problem. Two days before she died, my wife said God was punishing her, not for her lifetime smoking habit, as I expected, but because she had taken birth control pills for 20 years without my knowledge. Worse, she had had two abortions without telling me! Of course this completely blew me out of the water. I told her I forgave her, but that’s not really true. I’m still stunned beyond belief, mourning the children we never had who could have been such a joy and comfort. The only person I could think of to confide in was our parish priest, who told me that she’s burning in hell and will do so for all eternity. I really don’t think that’s true, as she was otherwise a very good woman, but now I don’t feel welcome at church as well. I think this will haunt me until the end of my days and I feel helpless to counteract it. Any advice you could give me would be very much appreciated.

—Devastated

Dear Devastated,
The cruelty of your wife’s behavior, both during your marriage and as she faced her own end, is hard to fathom. The death of a beloved spouse of more than four decades is going to upend anyone’s world. But of course you feel undone by her deathbed confession that she deceived you for the entirety of her reproductive years, and further that she aborted the children for whom you must have prayed. You say your wife was “a very good woman.” I’m sure you could unroll an endless list of her genuinely generous and loving acts. But she also engaged in a profound and continuous betrayal of you, then compounded this by not taking her secret to the grave. I’m not much of an afterlife person, but I agree that your priest’s response was gratuitous and mean. He needed to help you sort out your new understanding of your marriage, and to compassionately attend to you, the living. If you find solace in your faith, ask among your friends for a parish whose priest has a generous spirit. I also urge you to find a counseling center that specializes in bereavement. You will be able to talk to a therapist who has likely dealt with patients who have had all sorts of shocking pre- and post-mortem discoveries, and who will help you work through both your anger and loss. Your perfectly natural feelings of hurt and helplessness are fresh and raw. I hope you have friends and family who are a comfort, and paid or volunteer work that is a satisfaction. Even though it may be hard to believe now, with help and time, you will be able to heal.

... This persons response is just.. Shitty. I mean what kind of priest says that to someone? If I lost my best friend the last thing I would want to hear is that they were burning in hell too. And I love how her death doesn't bother him nearly as much as his lack of fuck trophies.

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catharsist
... This persons response is just.. Shitty. I mean what kind of priest says that to someone? If I lost my best friend the last thing I would want to hear is that they were burning in hell too. And I love how her death doesn't bother him nearly as much as his lack of fuck trophies.

The priest would probably have defended himself by saying that he was just speaking the Catholic truth. And likely joining in solidarity with the widower in being angry that he was denied the children he wanted.

But the woman? Why in the hell did she stay married to him? That couldn't have felt like a real marriage to her, not in the level of deception she carried out. Divorce, or an annulment, couldn't have been any worse than the constant lying and the procedures of an abortion. And then the feelings of being punished by the trauma and agony of cancer.

I'm sitting here totally boggled by this :crz

Another example of religion over relationship. More and more I learn about the Catholic Church in particular, it just seems to be a system designed to keep people in line rather then to encourage introspection with regard to biblical texts.

That's horrible. I cannot imagine lying to my spouse about something that big for that long. At that point you take the secret to the grave. Something like that would change the way I remembered him and I would wonder what else he hid from me. The priest was an asshole - something about how we are all sinners and forgiveness would be much more sensitive and still Catholic approved. He's just shitty at his job. As an atheist, I don't understand her position, making babies is a pretty essential part of being Catholic and while there are plenty that are ok with birth control and some that are ok with abortion I can't imagine identifying strongly with a faith that is so contrary to who I am. It must have been a really hard way to live.

I don't read a lack of love in the guy's question. You can prepare for a death by prolonged illness and make peace with it since it ends the person's suffering. Her child-freeness was a complete surprise.

My uncle's funeral was today, he and my aunt were childless-ish (aunt had cancer and a hysterectomy in her 20s, no interest in adopting). The service was very nice and all about what they did and no mention of regrets. My cousin who is closest in age to me is inpig and also recently married. A few distant relatives asked if it was me that was inpig (don't really know why, my cousin was standing around rubbing her gut and making a spectacle of herself) when I said no and none for us we were congratulated and a few of the older ladies said they wished it was an option for them. It was refreshing.

What's up with PRUDE lately?

Trying to drum up readership / revenue by climbing on the ChristoFascist bandwagon?

She should stick a mirror in front of her face while she writes about deceptive whores.

Wow. Sad story at a first glance but to me, it is also an eye opener to what life was like for CF women back then. I would imagine she has found no enjoyment in hiding her desire to be CF but for those days, I have to wonder, what were her options? I would imagine if she came out as a CF, she would get attacked from every direction. I cannot see her being able to get support of any kind due to a huge cultural difference between then and now. Women were looked down upon if they stayed single. Women would not be treated well if they got divirced. In some way, I can understand why she felt she had to do what she did. She fought fire with fire. I have seen the same in modern day in different cultures. Women just don't have the same rights in other places of the world that they do in USA. I am glad that she was able to get abortions. If her priest said so much nasty stuff about someone who passed away, what does he say to living people? I don't think I want to know.

I personally cannot hide the fact that I am CF from anyone that I would consider dating. Not for me. But, I am a guy, living in the USA in 21st century - huge difference.

In a Catholic (read, strange and not obvious) way, she really did hubby a favor. If he knew about the BC and/or abortions and fucked her anyway, it would be his sin, too. By not telling him before she hit menopause, she spared him Catholic hell. That has got to be an awful way to live - faith/man and their demands on one side, and who you really are on the other.

And yes, I'm still trying to make it from "Church-estranged" to full "ex-Catholic"

This is what is so horrible about systems that make people deny themselves out of fear. This is no worse than gay people who had to pretend they were straight, even going so far as to marry and have kids to hide it.

I can't condone her deception, but I can understand it: women had limited economic opportunities at that time, so should she have risked divorce or never getting married to be honest? Since it sounds like she never broke with the church, she probably really didn't see any alternatives. For others, seeing that disconnect between your own strong feelings and what you were taught was right triggers introspection and doubt, but it sounds like she didn't experience that. She probably suffered quite a bit for her decision if she truely believed God would condemn her for it.

As for him, he came to terms with not having children many years ago, a lesson he could help pass on to people within his community who are pursuing options like IVF (not approved by the church) in a desperate bid for children. Of course he's shocked by the revelation, and has a right to be mad about it, but hopefully he can talk to someone who will help him find empathy for her position because of his love for her, rather than someone who will encourage him to look back at his whole life with bitterness. That priest is a complete asshole, probably the sort who suggests disowning gay children. Whatever happened to loving the sinner but not the sin?

Allow me to do a KK on this one, and if any of you bright people have anything to add, fire away! I don't know what being a couple is like some of you do. I am in the blue

Dear Prudence,
My wife of 43 years died an excruciating death from lung cancer in April. We were childless, which I thought was a sorrow to both of us but I was wrong.

How was life without the kids? If it was miserable would you want the kids there? If it was a generally happy life, where is the sorrow?

We are simple people who never consulted a doctor or fertility clinic about the problem.

Thanks to that, you probably have a couple of cars, maybe a vacation and a house paid off which would not have happened if you did a Jon and Kate.

Two days before she died, my wife said God was punishing her, not for her lifetime smoking habit, as I expected, but because she had taken birth control pills for 20 years without my knowledge. Worse, she had had two abortions without telling me! Catholic God might hate her but mother nature claps her hands and thanks her!

Of course this completely blew me out of the water. I told her I forgave her, but that’s not really true. I’m still stunned beyond belief, mourning the children we never had who could have been such a joy and comfort.

It is upsetting I am sure, but Kodak moments are only few and far between if any. Besides would you have helped with the feedings, the Pampers, the potty training?

The only person I could think of to confide in was our parish priest, who told me that she’s burning in hell and will do so for all eternity.

I cannot believe anyone would go to a grouchy parish priest for anything even to say hi. Of course, he would say something nasty because they study philosophy in seminary. I can't think of a more useless subject, it doesn't teach anyone how to relate to people at all.

I really don’t think that’s true, as she was otherwise a very good woman, but now I don’t feel welcome at church as well. I think this will haunt me until the end of my days and I feel helpless to counteract it. Any advice you could give me would be very much appreciated.

As someone who is not welcome at church, I can tell you that you will survive. If the priest is that mean, you probably don't need the rest of the people either. Hopefully, you will have some friends outside of that church that you can do things with.

—Devastated

Dear Devastated,
The cruelty of your wife’s behavior, both during your marriage and as she faced her own end, is hard to fathom. The death of a beloved spouse of more than four decades is going to upend anyone’s world. But of course you feel undone by her deathbed confession that she deceived you for the entirety of her reproductive years, and further that she aborted the children for whom you must have prayed. You say your wife was “a very good woman.” I’m sure you could unroll an endless list of her genuinely generous and loving acts. But she also engaged in a profound and continuous betrayal of you, then compounded this by not taking her secret to the grave.

Cruelty? I think the priest was much more cruel.

I’m not much of an afterlife person, but I agree that your priest’s response was gratuitous and mean. He needed to help you sort out your new understanding of your marriage, and to compassionately attend to you, the living. If you find solace in your faith, ask among your friends for a parish whose priest has a generous spirit. A priest with a generous spirit? They are more rare than the black pearl. What if they went to the same seminary? Most of them are grouchy anyway, for reasons we know about.

I also urge you to find a counseling center that specializes in bereavement. You will be able to talk to a therapist who has likely dealt with patients who have had all sorts of shocking pre- and post-mortem discoveries, and who will help you work through both your anger and loss. Your perfectly natural feelings of hurt and helplessness are fresh and raw. I hope you have friends and family who are a comfort, and paid or volunteer work that is a satisfaction. Even though it may be hard to believe now, with help and time, you will be able to heal. Just hope this therapist is not a breeder, otherwise they will just rub it in and make you feel worse.

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Techie
Wow. Sad story at a first glance but to me, it is also an eye opener to what life was like for CF women back then. I would imagine she has found no enjoyment in hiding her desire to be CF but for those days, I have to wonder, what were her options? I would imagine if she came out as a CF, she would get attacked from every direction.

I'm probably 10-15 years behind that woman. There was no word for not wanting kids until at least the early 90s; it was hardly more than an unaccepted concept; so even those of us not burdened by crushing religion prevaricated.

For me, the late 70s was covered by the excuse "I'm not even out of college! And look at the job market! Like *I* can afford kids?"

1981, out of college and making barely $6.00/hour, even with my computer science degree: "jeezus, I'm living in a $150/month roach trap; I just bought my own car and am paying 17% interest on it (FYI: the economy sucked rotten eggs back then. worse than now, actually). There is $200 in my savings account, I would be an idiot to get married and have kids (back then, it was never "a kid" always "kids." multiples were expected)."

Late 80s, married and approaching 30: "I dunno. I give myself until 30. If we don't have kids by then I'm not going to worry about it. And besides, we just bought a house. The interest rates finally dropped to 10% but it's a honking big payment."

It wasn't until I was 29-30 that I began to just plain come out and say that Dh and I didn't want kids.Three or four years after that, with the rise of the internet and the first CF groups came articulation. With age came detachment and disinterest in the opinions of others on that subject.

I can understand the lack of articulation going on in the head of the woman from Prudie's letter, I just don't get the suffering she was willing to put herself through. Mygawd, the lies ... the having to sneak off and have abortions. She was quite adamant about not wanting to be a mother so I chalk it up to being under the control/thrall of religion. I consider myself lucky in having the resolve to never marry or commit to someone who wanted kids; better to be alone or go through life with a series of non-committed partners than be a parent. It was hard to get that across to those men when I broke off the dating cycle before it got serious - again with the lack of articulation - but I did not want to be a parent and there was no going back on that for me.

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Another example of religion over relationship. More and more I learn about the Catholic Church in particular, it just seems to be a system designed to keep people in line rather then to encourage introspection with regard to biblical texts.

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She was quite adamant about not wanting to be a mother so I chalk it up to being under the control/thrall of religion.

My mother was raised in an extreme Catholic home in the 40's and 50's. Although she professes to hate the Church, she still holds some really fucked up morals and she's all about the lies and secrecy. She uses the concept of mental reservation any time she wants to lie about something. I've read about mental reservation, and I fail to see the deep theology--it just sounds like a Church-sanctioned way to lie. The doctrine of mental reservation has been one of the impediments to prosecuting the sex offenders in the Church because nuns and priests cover for their sisters and brethern.

I think this is a sad story all around. She lied to him her whole married life, yet only feels obligated to come clean when she thinks Sky Daddy is punishing her. (Who knew that birth control and abortion cause lung cancer?eyes2 ) This doesn't show a well-integrated sense of morality. She's essentially fessing up because she's about to get caught by Sky Daddy. She had to feel tortured about it and it's sad. It's sad she didn't believe she could be who she was.

Likewise, the man must be hurting. It must be a terrible betrayal and being lied to about a substantial issue like that really fucks with your head. He's probably questioning their whole life together.

He needs compassionate bereavement counseling, not someone like that Dick Priest.

Hopefully he can come to terms with this and remember the good times and the good things she gave him.

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bell_flower
My mother was raised in an extreme Catholic home in the 40's and 50's. Although she professes to hate the Church, she still holds some really fucked up morals and she's all about the lies and secrecy. She uses the concept of mental reservation any time she wants to lie about something.

Well, that's interesting. Sounds like double-speak to me though. I can see how the Church has excused itself of the many atrocities for which it is responsible by using that concept.

ETA: our posts on this board belie the assumption from breeders and idiots like Dr Pew that we are a child hatin' site. I'm always coming across interesting facets that often end up in hours of absorbed reading, like the site Bell-Flower posted. I have it bookmarked to read in greater detail, later.

Just goes to show how we still have to fight hard to preserve the right to use birth control and have abortions. She had been raised to condemn herself for not wanting children, but who she was won out over religiosity (which I'm sure was pounded into her until she had Stockholm Syndrome).

She should have never told her husband though. She tried to ease her own conscious by destroying him emotionally, cruel move. The Priest was even more cruel than the wife, OF COURSE.

Very sad all the way around. If it weren't for the church, they could have both been happier, with her being able to be honest about who she was and as a result, her husband could have found a wife who would have been willing to have children with him.

I feel bad for her having to hide all those years and for him having been deceived for so long. What that priest said to him was totally out of line as well. It's those kinds of attitudes that make me suspcious of anything connected to a church or that lablels itself "Christian." Some of the people I've seen labeled "good Chirstians," "good Catholics, " etc., are actually some of the worst human beings I've ever had the displeasure of knowing. They do the same things or worse that they accuse us nonchruchgoing heathens of doing, but they wrap it up in the bible and it's all OK.

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Dorisan

I’m still stunned beyond belief, mourning the children we never had who could have been such a joy and comfort.

larious At least he said "could" and not "would".

I wonder if the wife got married to a total toolbag and knew there was no way she'd be able to get a divorce so she decided not so spawn with him and create little toolbags?

But I do feel sorry for the guy if he thinks his wife is burning in hell, though. That's just cruel to take advantage of his beliefs like that.

Then again, I'm not one to say the Catholic Church usually gives the greatest advice. I remember when I was teen I had a heartfelt discussion with a priest about how I didn't think it would be respectful to either the Church or to myself to go through confirmation if I didn't believe in a lot of the things the Church stood for. I was told there was some room for interpretation and to just get confirmed anyway. Great advice, and a brilliant choice in policy to do the confirmation rites at an age where people are just starting to think for themselves. Less than 2 years later I realized I was an atheist and, if they ever officially found out, I suppose they'd have to excommunicate me. eyes2

Guess I'll being seeing him AND his wife in hell.

Here, I'll say what some of you are thinking: that priest said what he did because he was upset he wasn't able to molest them. If you don't have kids, they can't be molested.

Is it just me, or is it always some batshit fundy or batshit Catholic man—never a woman—who talks about children being a "joy and comfort"? That phrasing seems to be exclusively male. Most honest, rational parents in later life admit their children were mostly anything but.

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Dorisan

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bell_flower
My mother was raised in an extreme Catholic home in the 40's and 50's. Although she professes to hate the Church, she still holds some really fucked up morals and she's all about the lies and secrecy. She uses the concept of mental reservation any time she wants to lie about something.

Well, that's interesting. Sounds like double-speak to me though. I can see how the Church has excused itself of the many atrocities for which it is responsible by using that concept.

Yes, thanks for sharing that bell_flower!
Omg that explains so very very much about how I was hypocritically held to a stricter standard about lying while I knew full well my mother lied to me all the time.
Of course mormons aren't catholics, and I never heard something like this spelled out at her church, but I believe something just like this is at the root of all the lies I never called her out on.

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benry
Less than 2 years later I realized I was an atheist and, if they ever officially found out, I suppose they'd have to excommunicate me.

As an atheist, I insisted that I be removed from the Catholic membership list (ie baptized people they claim as Catholic)

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2010/02/09/ask-richard-i-want-to-officially-leave-the-catholic-church/

I also did not take Confirmation (ceremony around age 12 to state that as an 'adult' you were confirming as a Catholic member) and I was punished at school for weeks as a result.
(When I objected, because taking Confirmation was supposed to be a free choice, they justified that I just happened to be getting treatment that was the same as punishment, but it was not punishment.)

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cassia

As an atheist, I insisted that I be removed from the Catholic membership list (ie baptized people they claim as Catholic)

Wow, that's cool. I didn't know you could do that. They told me I had to be ex-communicated if I wanted to leave. Never looked into it because I figured it was their problem they had a heathen on the roster.
larious

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cassia
I also did not take Confirmation (ceremony around age 12 to state that as an 'adult' you were confirming as a Catholic member) and I was punished at school for weeks as a result.
(When I objected, because taking Confirmation was supposed to be a free choice, they justified that I just happened to be getting treatment that was the same as punishment, but it was not punishment.)

That's insane! I take it you were in Catholic school? My condolences. I managed to escape going because my parents had PTSD from the nuns back in the 40's and 50's. But I did not escape CCD, hence the coercion into confirmation.eyes2

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benry

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cassia

As an atheist, I insisted that I be removed from the Catholic membership list (ie baptized people they claim as Catholic)

Wow, that's cool. I didn't know you could do that. They told me I had to be ex-communicated if I wanted to leave. Never looked into it because I figured it was their problem they had a heathen on the roster.
larious

I'd say it's worth getting removed. The church uses those numbers to get a seat at the table in community discussions. If they had no claim to being 'representative' of a decent portion of the population, flip-flopping politicians would see no reason to cater to them or waste time hearing their views. This is also relevant in any place where public funds are given to faith groups to perform particular community services.

It doesn't hurt them to have an atheist on the books, but it may hurt secular society to have their numbers overestimated.

I read this post in the morning, but it's bothered me All. Fucking. Day. So sin is transmittable, like an STD? Better be careful who you stick your dick in, fellas; she may have stolen some Post-It notes, and you're screwed by proxy!

That priest is a real asshole. Who deserves to hear that a loved one is "burning in hell"? I wouldn't even say that to John Wayne Gacy's mother. (Of course I would THINK it, but I'd never say it) This woman was born in a time where her husband could have divorced her for an abortion. Job prospects for women then weren't quite as plentiful. Although I wouldn't recommend a woman do this nowadays, I think it's wise that she kept her mouth shut.

Prudie, your judgement this week is flawed at best.

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"[GFG's pregnancy is] kind of like at the stables where that one dumb, ugly-ass mare broke out of her corral one day and got herself screwed by the equally fugly colt that was due to be gelded the same afternoon."- Shiny

I'm not exactly seeing Prudie's appeal, myself. Asking her for advice makes as much sense as Poe being a sex columnist.

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I for one am always happy to hear the good news that two Catholics didn't breed. The world does not need any more of that fuckery.

Although I can understand why this woman lied, it doesn't make it okay for her to have deceived her husband when she knew he wanted kids. Obviously she felt tremendous guilt over her actions and likely her deceit dampened her own happiness as well for the duration of their marriage. I honestly don't know how she went through with that charade for so long, especially the abortions, all the while knowing her husband was pining away for a mini-me. However, to say she will burn in Hell for all of eternity was not only cruel, but it goes against their beliefs that if you repent, confess, and ask for forgiveness you still get to go to Heaven, regardless of the sin. May she be reunited with her loafs in Heaven and perhaps when her husband dies they can live out eternity in their McMansion with the white picket fence and experience joy while their self replicants swing from the kinder crap in the back yard.

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If YOU are the "exception" to what I am saying, then why does my commentary bother you so much?
I don't hate your kids, I HATE YOU!