Dawkins on Down's

Richard Dawkins sure has stirred up the pot by suggesting that it's immoral not to abort if you discover that your fetus has Down's syndrome. Link. Of course he's still a natalist, since he suggests "try again" as the appropriate response.

My thought on the matter is that we live in a time of artificial plenty in developed countries, and that this time will end, due to a combination of peak oil (our agriculture relies heavily on fossil fuels), climate change/environmental distruction, and overpopulation. While I'd like for everyone to have a good quality of life, I don't see that happening; rather, I think things are going to get a lot worse. So I'd rather focus the resources on people who already exist first. When we have to start making difficult choices I think that those who are healthier will be favored, and that is going to suck for those of us (including myself) who are not. What chance does someone with such limited intellectual capacity and a host of health issues have in tomorrow's world?

Not much of a chance, really. But that's the thing with breeders - they don't think about tomorrow. They just think about today - maybe just the next couple hours - and will worry about tomorrow when it becomes today. They don't care if their kids have a future or what kind of shape the world will be in when the kids are adults, just as long as they get to make some babies in order to achieve fake immortality. Then what? Mommy and Daddy die and they no longer have to care what kind of shit their kids are enduring or will endure.

I know breeders think they're doing their unborn loaves a favor by birthing Downslings, but life is fucking hard enough as it is for those who are healthy and somewhat sane. It's inhumane to not abort when you find out the fetus has something very wrong with it. Maybe to some people that goes into "designer baby" territory, but I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting a healthy child if you have to fucking have one. A very very sickly or retarded kid will never become a productive member of society - rather, it will always be a burden to everyone else.

I don't think it's very fair to the fetus when Moo and/or Duh finds out it's deformed or sick and brings it into the world anyway. I think when presented with the question of "Would you like to be born with Down's syndrome?" most people would say NO. Breeders simply do not care about the quality of their kids' lives or what kind of a future they'll have or how much pain they might be in by merely existing. Just as long as THEY get what THEY want, that's all that matters. If he kid comes out fucked up, the taxpayers can pay for it.

Maybe I sound like a bitch, but I think women who know they're going to birth a defecto-loaf via testing should be required to abort it. If they refuse, fine them and make it so they are never ever allowed to put the kid in a nursing home or nut house. They want their little circus freak to be born, then they can raise it all on their own.

Why do these idiot people have these defective units? Mainly Religion. Their churches come off with the "All life is precious" crap. But you never see the churches paying for the care ,feeding and upkeep of these creatures. Last month I was in a medical office for an appointment. The waiting room is full except for maybe 4 chairs. Right next to me of course. Coming through the double doors is this i guess a female tard. The moo and a paid professional handler. Now this was a full blown, M1-A1,crash helmet ,harness wearing ,and had on what looked like boots that they used to walk on the moon. And it was huge,"Why are these types always so friggen big? Oh, also was obviously wearing a diaper, which didn't take long to realize was full. Nice!
Now they the moo and the handler had to slowly walk this thing which had almost no brain capacity into the waiting room. Each step reminded me of fucken Frankenstein. Finally sat it down where it was devoid of any emotion at all. Until about a couple of minutes it stared communicating by stomping the floor and grunting. Slowly getting agitated. You could tell most people in that room at that point wanted to be somewhere else. I however got up and went to the receptionist and told her ill be outside. As I am going for the door moo says to some random asshole in there that :"We get that allot, it doesn't bother me because she is our gift from god" I wanted so bad to say "You should have kept the receipt.
Point is, you know this thing will eventually be put in a nut farm and we taxpayers will foot the bill.

"Gift from God," indeed. Imagine the quality of life for such a person. Hell, there's NO quality of life! Religion isn't much comfort to one in that mental and physical state, and it can't be to their family either.

It's profoundly unfair to bring a child into the world knowing he/she will be severely disabled. Simple as that.

It takes a child to raze a village.

There's a big PR push by the pro-lie movement to 'sell' all Down's kids as, hey, just an extra chromosome, no big! It's one thing if you end up with a high-functioning kid, but that's definitely not the norm. They'd like to convince us that they're all going to be Chris Burke from Life Goes On.

There's just as much of a spectrum as there is for autism, and heaven help you if you end up with one who's essentially a toddler all his life. That kind of stress destroys many families - mentally, emotionally, and financially - and it certainly isn't the sort of undertaking anyone should be guilted into. It's a really special kind of asshole that insists that everyone with this diagnosis take a huge risk that could very well be disastrous for everyone involved.

One thing people fail to understand is that you can be against birthing future tards without devaluing existing ones. No one is suggesting killing Downies who already exist. People with Down's can be very sweet, but what kind of life is that for them? It's not you who will have to go through life with a major disability, so who are you to make the decision for them? It's a LIFE SENTENCE for god's sake.

But to the parunts, disabled kids are a source of attention and sympathy (and sometimes monetary donations) that keeps on giving.

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trance formation usa
One thing people fail to understand is that you can be against birthing future tards without devaluing existing ones. No one is suggesting killing Downies who already exist. People with Down's can be very sweet, but what kind of life is that for them? It's not you who will have to go through life with a major disability, so who are you to make the decision for them? It's a LIFE SENTENCE for god's sake.

But to the parunts, disabled kids are a source of attention and sympathy (and sometimes monetary donations) that keeps on giving.

Exactly.

Also, I live in NHS country. I will have to subsidize your failure to abort kids. I will. But I won't be happy about it.

And yes, I'll tell you so if you happen to ask me. Call me a monster if you wish.

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lib'-er-ty: the freedom given to you to make the wrong decision, based on the reasoned belief that you will normally make the right one.

One thing people are forgetting, or don't even know, is that a good majority of Down Syndrome people will develop early-onset Alzheimer's or other dementia. This wasn't known before because Down folks weren't living that long, but now that they're surviving to their 40s, this extra complication is arising. Which adds another bit of cruelty because even the Chris Burkes will lose whatever autonomy and independence they had.

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paragon schnitzophonic
One thing people are forgetting, or don't even know, is that a good majority of Down Syndrome people will develop early-onset Alzheimer's or other dementia. This wasn't known before because Down folks weren't living that long, but now that they're surviving to their 40s, this extra complication is arising. Which adds another bit of cruelty because even the Chris Burkes will lose whatever autonomy and independence they had.

I was going to add that it's especially cruel for the high functioning ones : Many of them are smart enough to know and understand that they are not as smart as other people. I had forgotten about the early onset Alzheimer's link. Smart enough to be somewhat independent but to know that others are capable of so much more-and then to have even that taken away.

If they can ever cure and reverse alzheimers, maybe they can cure Down's Syndrome, and vice versa.

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highwayman
Why do these idiot people have these defective units? Mainly Religion. Their churches come off with the "All life is precious" crap. But you never see the churches paying for the care ,feeding and upkeep of these creatures. Last month I was in a medical office for an appointment. The waiting room is full except for maybe 4 chairs. Right next to me of course. Coming through the double doors is this i guess a female tard. The moo and a paid professional handler. Now this was a full blown, M1-A1,crash helmet ,harness wearing ,and had on what looked like boots that they used to walk on the moon. And it was huge,"Why are these types always so friggen big? Oh, also was obviously wearing a diaper, which didn't take long to realize was full. Nice!
Now they the moo and the handler had to slowly walk this thing which had almost no brain capacity into the waiting room. Each step reminded me of fucken Frankenstein. Finally sat it down where it was devoid of any emotion at all. Until about a couple of minutes it stared communicating by stomping the floor and grunting. Slowly getting agitated. You could tell most people in that room at that point wanted to be somewhere else. I however got up and went to the receptionist and told her ill be outside. As I am going for the door moo says to some random asshole in there that :"We get that allot, it doesn't bother me because she is our gift from god" I wanted so bad to say "You should have kept the receipt.
Point is, you know this thing will eventually be put in a nut farm and we taxpayers will foot the bill.

That's a terrible thing and I can't help pity the parents. The "gift from God" stuff is always first being preached by those who don't have a kid with those kinds of ailments.

Obviously I don't want kids, ever. The first reason is financial, the second is a lack of interest in raising them, and the third is that I am ghastly afraid of ending up having one with disabilities. I could not cope with that on a daily basis.

Speaking of being an asshole, that's usually what I'm called whenever I expressed this feeling. But the bottom line is that every man has his breaking point, and I would not do well as a father, let alone as a father to someone who was mentally retarded. I couldn't handle that.

I've read some feel-good human interest stories on how profoundly disabled people "light up a room." They do? I'm just not seeing it. The only thing I see is a person who is in pain and doesn't know exactly why they are in pain, and a caretaker that's deluding herself.

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ex lurker
I was going to add that it's especially cruel for the high functioning ones : Many of them are smart enough to know and understand that they are not as smart as other people. I had forgotten about the early onset Alzheimer's link. Smart enough to be somewhat independent but to know that others are capable of so much more-and then to have even that taken away.

If they can ever cure and reverse alzheimers, maybe they can cure Down's Syndrome, and vice versa.

Yup. There is one person I know from the town I grew up in, who is now about 40. His health is failing and he's smart enough to know what's happening. The last time I encountered him, he talked about dying, and whether he'd be around in a few years. He may be high-enough functioning to not have to live in a group home, but he's certainly not stereotypically cheerful. He's well aware of his limitations and it sounds like a horrible life to me.

I don't see treatment for alzheimers helping Down's. Down's is an extra chromosome, which means that every cell in the body has the flawed DNA.

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yurble


Yup. There is one person I know from the town I grew up in, who is now about 40. His health is failing and he's smart enough to know what's happening. The last time I encountered him, he talked about dying, and whether he'd be around in a few years. He may be high-enough functioning to not have to live in a group home, but he's certainly not stereotypically cheerful. He's well aware of his limitations and it sounds like a horrible life to me.

I don't see treatment for alzheimers helping Down's. Down's is an extra chromosome, which means that every cell in the body has the flawed DNA.

Stereotyping all of them as being "cheerful" is setting up another set of possibly false expectations for parents.

Strictly speaking about morality, Dawkins can go cram his personal judgements in the same place the anti-abortionists can put theirs.

Regarding the availability of resources to care for Down's kids, at least if you live in a Western nation, the last couple centuries have been the most prosperous overall that the world has ever seen. If anything now would be the best time to KEEP a Down's baby.

But the problem is that good times don't last. We're already seeing the comeback of a real barbarian contingent with real teeth, which the world hasn't seen for generations and has no idea how to deal with. The dominant superpower (and babysitter/food-shoveler to half the globe) is running out of money through sheer stupidity and Africa is on the verge of a plague-grade Ebola outbreak. This is just for starters.

Back in the frontier days a child born with Down's would have met a quiet end without any legal investigation unless the parents were morons about it for the same reason a Terry Schiavo in that day would've DIED. There was just not the resources - medical, financial or otherwise for all but the top 1%. A painkiller overdose or a feather pillow if none were available were (very, very) quietly acknowledged by even the staunchest conservative as a better alternative to unalleviated suffering because there were no million-dollar hospitals or nationwide support systems.

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reala_tea


But the problem is that good times don't last. We're already seeing the comeback of a real barbarian contingent with real teeth, which the world hasn't seen for generations and has no idea how to deal with. The dominant superpower (and babysitter/food-shoveler to half the globe) is running out of money through sheer stupidity and Africa is on the verge of a plague-grade Ebola outbreak. This is just for starters.

The crux of the issue here is the cost to parents and society in raising children with intellectual disabilities, and how this will manifest itself in the future.. Downs numbers are way down but autism numbers are way up.

If the Ebola outbreak wipes out much of Africa, we will see increased food supplies and decreased food prices for the rest of the world. Should this happen, I don't see a lack of food being the issue.

The issue is the growing number of children who need disability services from the state versus the gap between the rich and the middle class/working class/poor. Even if taxes are raised on the rich, everyone else who makes up the vast majority is still struggling.

There will be a tipping point sometime in the future where for some people political correctness will go out the window, and they'll flat out say that they're not willing to pay huge sums of money in taxes for the intellectually disabled children.

Part of this is simple economics and opportunity cost. As debts mount and infrastructure crumbles, given the choice between providing $billions of services to intellectually disabled kids will ultimately lose out when pitted against repairing the infrastructure of roads, bridges, and technology. Mathematics and economics often present us with cruel realities. A decade or two down the line, I can't see a struggling working class guy being really enthusiastic toward subsidizing disabled children when he keeps breaking axles on his truck because the roads are falling apart.

Add on top of that the fact that the childfree population is increasing, and they have no skin in the game in this matter. I don't care how many "awareness" campaigns there are, people just aren't going to willingly pay vast sums of money more in taxes to support those who will likely never, ever be able to support themselves. Yes, this is a cruel aspect of the human psyche and a cruel reality for our time, but it is a reality. Don't kill the messenger. If you bring a child into the world who will never be able to take care of himself and think that he's going to be financially taken care of by everyone else, I think that ship has sailed. It's just not going to happen.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2595759/Sole-mates-Childhood-sweethearts-Down-syndrome-fitted-custom-boots-Western-themed-wedding-Dallas-vineyard.html




Now they're getting married too like this Tardsome Twosome.

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If YOU are the "exception" to what I am saying, then why does my commentary bother you so much?
I don't hate your kids, I HATE YOU!

I agree with Dawkins (except on the "try again" bit). I think it's pretty sick to knowingly give birth to a kid with Down's, or any serious disability, really. It's far better to just get rid of it and put it out of its (and everyone else's) misery.

But you can't actually say these things in public because OMG NAZIS SUPPORTED IT TOO!!1!

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StudioFiftyFour
If the Ebola outbreak wipes out much of Africa, we will see increased food supplies and decreased food prices for the rest of the world. Should this happen, I don't see a lack of food being the issue.

Ah, well. Every cloud, eh?

I always thought humanity was overdue for another nasty outbreak of some fatal disease - just nature's way of correcting overpopulation, in my view. I mean, surely the point of any diseases existing is to ensure that no one species gains the upper hand in an ecosystem. Hasn't worked well for us, but hey-ho.

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strange aeons
I agree with Dawkins (except on the "try again" bit). I think it's pretty sick to knowingly give birth to a kid with Down's, or any serious disability, really. It's far better to just get rid of it and put it out of its (and everyone else's) misery.

But you can't actually say these things in public because OMG NAZIS SUPPORTED IT TOO!!1!

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StudioFiftyFour
If the Ebola outbreak wipes out much of Africa, we will see increased food supplies and decreased food prices for the rest of the world. Should this happen, I don't see a lack of food being the issue.

Ah, well. Every cloud, eh?

I always thought humanity was overdue for another nasty outbreak of some fatal disease - just nature's way of correcting overpopulation, in my view. I mean, surely the point of any diseases existing is to ensure that no one species gains the upper hand in an ecosystem. Hasn't worked well for us, but hey-ho.

A lot depends on research and progress when it comes to fatal diseases. Look at how many diseases have been close to eradicated in the 20th/21st centuries, especially in the west.

Still, anything is possible. A run-up on oil prices makes a tremendous impact on food prices globally, considering the transport and fertilizer costs are directly tied to fossil fuels.

And as far as Eugenics and the Nazis go, look no further than the US. Eugenics here predated the Nazis.

@StudioFiftyFour

You are right about the eugenics movement in the U.S. Anyone who is curious can just google "fitter family contests".

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"I have found little that is 'good' about human beings on the whole. In my experience most of them are trash, no matter whether they publicly subscribe to this or that ethical doctrine or to none at all."
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peace-n-quiet
@StudioFiftyFour

You are right about the eugenics movement in the U.S. Anyone who is curious can just google "fitter family contests".

I had to giggle it. I was dismayed that it wasnt as lurid as i thought it would be.

This may be considered science fiction, but I believe there is a lot of truth to it.

The Marching Morons

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highwayman
Now this was a full blown, M1-A1,crash helmet ,harness wearing ,and had on what looked like boots that they used to walk on the moon. And it was huge

Now they the moo and the handler had to slowly walk this thing which had almost no brain capacity into the waiting room. Each step reminded me of fucken Frankenstein.

Perhaps Tardleigh was a runner, and those big-ass boots prevented it from getting away from its handlers. (It brings to mind those magnetic prison boots that can be locked to the floor, in the 1997 sci-fi film Face/Off.) I could be wrong about that, but such intentionally cumbersome boots would be a VERY good idea for when Tard has to be taken in public. Not only would they prevent running, but they also would prevent it from attacking innocent bystanders.

But of course, certain people (who likely haven't experienced tard maintenance day after day) would holler about using "inhumane restraint devices" on them -- never mind the fact that severe tards have no concept of dignity.

Drlove0378, This experience to me was creepy and unsettling. I'm not joking when I say this creature had maybe 5% brain capacity. I've had cats that were more responsive. Then it would get agitated and stamp its feet ,then the handlers would attempt to control it. Damn right i got up and almost walked out. The gift from god thing really got to me. what a delusional idiot moo she was. Anyone that would knowingly bring something like this into the world is a fucking moron. But hey that's just me!

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highwayman
Drlove0378, This experience to me was creepy and unsettling. I'm not joking when I say this creature had maybe 5% brain capacity. I've had cats that were more responsive. Then it would get agitated and stamp its feet ,then the handlers would attempt to control it. Damn right i got up and almost walked out. The gift from god thing really got to me. what a delusional idiot moo she was. Anyone that would knowingly bring something like this into the world is a fucking moron. But hey that's just me!

I'd be very uncomfortable there, too. The tard sounds like a truly terrifying visage -- and I wasn't even there to see it. Why the big push to "normalize" such creatures, I wonder? It's not like they can EVER give anything back to society. The constant wasting of resources on them, just pisses me off. If I know how tard parents operate, they not only suck every available social program dry, but also try to squeeze as many services out of the school district as they can (including extended year services), just to get a break from Tardley. (This shit goes on until they're 22.)

My aunt can attest to this -- she used to be a special education aide. She tells it like it is, and has said that a lot of times, "students" would come into class (or be wheeled in), basically to have their diaper changed. That's it. They had no intellectual abilities whatsoever.

Every taxpayer should be outraged -- while so much money is being poured into tards, normal kids are given a substandard education, and many non-retarded adults can't get help from the system they spent their whole lives paying into.

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kidlesskim
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2595759/Sole-mates-Childhood-sweethearts-Down-syndrome-fitted-custom-boots-Western-themed-wedding-Dallas-vineyard.html

Now they're getting married too like this Tardsome Twosome.

If they somehow managed to sprog, would the resulting loaf be called a DOUBLE DOWN?

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drlove0378

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kidlesskim
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2595759/Sole-mates-Childhood-sweethearts-Down-syndrome-fitted-custom-boots-Western-themed-wedding-Dallas-vineyard.html

Now they're getting married too like this Tardsome Twosome.

If they somehow managed to sprog, would the resulting loaf be called a DOUBLE DOWN?

Double Down Bacon Martini

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