For CF ladies - marriage advice needed

I don't see the 180 as games, but refusing to play games. It's mainly basic disengagement and choosing to continue your life without having to wait for a (possibly toxic) partner to decide if they're going to treat you decent.

There are many good points in both concepts but IMHO it is still a power play
because you are not yourself, you act according to certain rules.
The difference is that the goal of this power plays is not to manipulate
someone but to save yourself from harm.

I think there is a certain element of this
"it's human nature to get too comfortable with someone who doesn't have options"
there is no doubt about it
BUT I had the same problem in the previous partnership (disrespectful bf, 7 y relationship)
and I was financially independent + lived on my own (6,5 y in shared flat, only 6 m with bf).

If he's telling you that he can do better and you need to kiss his ass, the only response that doesn't play right into that manipulation is to tell him the door is over there, but it only swings one way. He's trying to demonstrate how awesome he thinks he is in the most ham-fisted way possible. The worst thing you could do is believe him.

Meanwhile, I agree with the advice from others to cultivate all the other areas of your life and get your ducks in a row. If he thinks you fear that he will leave or get a mistress, he will only use that information to turn you into the doormat he has suddenly decided he wants.

I've also found that when someone is trying to manipulate me that pointing out exactly what they are doing (e.g. "It sounds like you are trying to make me feel guilty," "I think you are just trying to intimidate me," or "I think you're just being vague so I'll worry about what you really think," etc.) stops it almost immediately. They deny that they were doing it and backtrack.

I agree 100% with happyhiker. Acknowledge the behavior and if he thinks he can do better, get out. Make sure you have your shit together and let him hear the truth.

Women at work throwing themselves at him?
Chauvinist co-workers filling his head with stupid ideas?
Those young women in Eastern Europe will bang any Western man that can get them out of there. The only thing special for them about your husband is his German passport.

I think your husband already has a a potential side piece just waiting for your marriage to implode. I also think your husband has been to a divorce lawyer to see how much it would cost him to get rid of you. He hasn't filed for divorce yet because it would cost him too much to replace you with a younger model.

I'm sorry if this sounds offensive, but for your husband to change so fast, there must be something, some sort of catalyst. I think your husband already has a potential side piece just waiting for your marriage to implode. It could be some woman from work, or some young woman who professed her "love" for him while on a business trip in Eastern Europe. The baby rabies could just be a way to break up the marriage, so he could move on to fresher pastures.

I would watch him carefully.

Although some people might find this unethical, I'd try to read his email, check his phone for strange numbers and text messages. If you are able, maybe you can read the monthly credit card bill statement, to see if some strange charges are on there. Start snooping around discretely, to see what shows up.

Sorry this is happening to you.

@Peace: what you are saying may very well hold water. At the same time, I have had personal experiences with wanna-breeders. At the core of all of this, there may just be baybee rabies. When a wanna breeder approaches breeders and tells them that he wants to breed but an "evil CF wife" will not let him, all breeders jump to him and promise him how much better his life will be.

In the past, I have lived with a wanna-breeder. No, she did not cheat, she did not have anyone else lined up and no, she did not really want the relationship to end. But, when her baby rabies were not well received, she utilized all that she had at her disposal in an attempt to get me to change.

Most wanna breeder threats are paper tigers. All they can do is hope that a CF person changes and becomes a breeder. Most CF people don't budge.

Here is a word of caution. I know a single moo. She used to be on a fence about breeding. Her back then husband talked her into it. After the kid came along, husband became an asshole and before long she was and is a single moo. This is an example of how wanna breed men really are. They show their true colors after they get their way.

Mrs. C - You need to read about Reproductive Coercion.

You may never have heard of this, it is a thing, and there are too many links for me to post here. Just look that up.

As well as 'Mental Abuse' and 'Manipulation'.

I got some when I was younger - including my exH who KNEW I was CF and was very clear about it - he tried to coerce me and said 'I thought you'd change your mind'.

And another guy I wasn't even all that serious with - sorta serious, I'd been involved with him for 2, 3 months - out of the blue he wants to get married and have baybees! After I said, on like DAY ONE - I am CF.

And even long before these - a guy I was just "FWBs" with, back in the day, old enough to be my father, - all of a sudden came talk of marriage and bay bees and even a detour on the way to a restaurant, for a supposed 'date' - to go look at some new Model Homes in some Bland Suburbia ~

Hold on now ~

I told you:

NO.

I had to remove myself from several things - because they were trying to turn me into a Stepford Wife. And I was always CLEAR about - NO KIDS. I am NOT having kids.
Several tried to 'turn me', regardless. From the 'serious' / years invested / accepted me (so they *said*) as CF, to even FWBs - which they were all blustery to make clear that they didn't want any 'woman dragging them down'. But then they wanna go shopping for houses and are almost hopeful that I turn up in pig? EYEROLL!



Mrs. C - I agree with the above posters' thoughts - and you maybe need to *get out* of your present situation. Yes, maybe things have 'calmed down' - but these things are likely to come up again. Take this time to start looking at new options *for yourself*. What does it hurt to look and get some of your things straight beforehand. And it never hurts to create a 'life for yourself' too. Why not?

And if he disagrees - about you even taking a Yoga or Cooking class or - whatever - *watch that* - that's a HUGE RED FLAG! That he does not want you to have even 'simple interests' or even 'the basics' of your own life.

You are an intelligent person, Mrs. C, and IMO it wouldn't hurt you to get some 'other options' lined up for yourself. Get some of 'your own stuff going on' - just for you, too. If H is not an asshole - he'll be glad of it and encourage you.

If he tries to tear your ideas down and steer you toward other things, like breeding ~
Well ~ You know what that means ~

You do need to open your eyes to it all and face it head on, too. I've had to do it a few times. With men / personal things - as well as in 'jobs' too. I REFUSE to get involved in shady biz and on the 'legit side' - I WILL be paid what I'm worth. You have to be strong and assertive. I refuse to take shit. It's hard work in and of itself, warding off the shit.

Do it anyway.

Remember -

I can -
I WILL.

@ Peace: it's not offensive at all, thank you for your insight.

Recently, he displayed vast knowledge of the divorce laws.
He talked about divorce with MRA's at the office.
They have plenty of experience as most of them are divorced.
I asked what was the occassion, he just said "the topic came up".
Whatever.
He told me that there is a speed divorce process. You can be divorced
after one month, but only in case you have the same lawyer and you
agree 100% to all terms and conditions.
When not, a legal separation for one year is required and the divorce
process starts after the one-year-separation # messy and ugly.

"He hasn't filed for divorce yet because it would cost him too much to replace you with a younger model."
-> I always have to laugh when I think about it. That's justice! When this all backfires, I won't be the only
one who will make big eyes

@ Zelda: "Several tried to 'turn me', regardless." That's so fucked up, there are no words for that.

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mrs. chinaski
@ finances: I looked into it during the crisis no1.
In case of D, I will get 50% of assets made in marriage,
a part of his pension + it looks like I could get permanent
alimony. Allegedly, it depends on court but when you can
prove that you gave up your career to keep the marriage
(trailing spouse) it's a real possibility.
But I would have to discuss this with a lawyer of course.

Don't forget that you're living in a very pro-natalist country, where adults are on the hook for supporting their low-income parents...unless they have their own children to support. I would not be surprised if alimony were based on his circumstances, namely, if he acquires a baby, he won't be expected to keep paying you. Based on some of your disagreements I would expect that he would have a baby within 12-18 months of you two splitting.

If he has been researching divorce it seems like you should as well. He has probably only told you part of the story, and you have a good reason not to rely on what he's telling you these days.

What are your prospects where you live? How well do you know the language? I know there's quite a bit of bias against foreigners, and it's also difficult to find meaningful employment as a female of reproductive age. Part-time work is assumed to be all you're up for because anything else would get in the way of reproducing.

@mrs.Chinaski: his MRA friends may be blowing a whole lot of hot air. They are probably just a group of angry breeders. At the same time, if those people are divorced and have traded "for a newer model" they probably know about loopholes.

Germany is a pro- breeder place, yes, but they also have a safety net where there are social programs to help those who do not work. I have zero knowledge of German divorce laws but I would imagine they do protect a spouse without income.

I am not 100% convinced that the idea of "newer model" is his. Most men who have such ideas are single due to the fact that implementing such idea is very expensive and very few can afford it. So, such men sit there and brainlessly give "advice" to other men about how to do it because themselves, they could not afford it.

@ alimony according to circumstances: That's true. I read about cases where Duh divorced,
married again and when his new cow sluiced, Duh ran immediately to a court to get the alimony
for wife no1. reduced. Happens all the time. In a case of dependency, you will get dragged
through courts. The only comfort in such a situation is that it is equally unpleasant for both parties.

"What are your prospects where you live? How well do you know the language?
I know there's quite a bit of bias against foreigners, and it's also difficult to find
meaningful employment as a female of reproductive age. Part-time work is assumed to be all you're up
for because anything else would get in the way of reproducing."
You are very well informed...
Prospects: unemployment rate here is above average
Language: I am fluent.

"difficult to find meaningful employment as a female of reproductive age"
Yes! I am unintentional SAHW because I didn't find any job.
I applied for some time, had a few interviews but didn't get any job offer.
I have a "proof" that it is all about pignasty:
DH's cousins decided that they want to start working again.
There are in their 50ies and didn't work for 12+ years.
They both got jobs without any issues.

Bias against foreigners: Yes.
Some people are crazy here. I got a question why I don't get back "home"
to find a job. Really???
1. I came here when I was 20 yo. This is my home!
2. I am married. But yeah, I know. When you don't have chyldren, it doesn't count.
3. The economical situation in my home country is worse
than here so when I don't find a job here, it means I wouldn't find a job "over there" either.

@ As far as I know, loopholes are only for people who have an own company.
They can "play".

@ New model is his idea. One of his colleagues (the same age) married young woman
and they have a baybee. In addition to this, women in EE.

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mrs.Chinaski
@ New model is his idea. One of his colleagues (the same age) married young woman
and they have a baybee. In addition to this, women in EE.

In many cases, new model is an empty threat. A stupid one at that. Does he not know that you can find a "newer model" too? There are plenty of women out there who date younger men. I have dated older women. It goes both ways.

It's an old school breeder threat - I don't really see millennials using it or falling for it.

I have been threatened with all kinds of crap when I refused to breed. Most of it was like threatening to pick up a porcupine with a bare hand. I don't remember if I ever was threatened to be traded in for a newer model, somehow it did not stick in my mind.

I don't know about work situation in Germany but they hire moos around my workplace and encourage breeding. When there is a new loaf, there is a company wide email that congratulates the moo much in the same way as a department manager is being congratulated on making a huge milestone.

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Techie
I have been threatened with all kinds of crap when I refused to breed. Most of it was like threatening to pick up a porcupine with a bare hand.

I love this!

In my experience, married men tend to vastly overestimate their value on the open market were they to get divorced. I've worked with several and noticed the typical arc. They start of as Bitter Married Guy. Bitter Married Guy refers to his wife as a bitch and envies all the single people he knows. He gets divorced, regresses in maturity by about twenty years and hits on every woman with a pulse who is completely out of his league. Repeated rejections and a lot of nights at home alone make him pine for his ex-wife. He finds out that she won't take him back because her life improved post-divorce. Then, he turns into Bitter Divorced Guy and refers to all women as bitches.

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happyhiker
In my experience, married men tend to vastly overestimate their value on the open market were they to get divorced. I've worked with several and noticed the typical arc. They start of as Bitter Married Guy. Bitter Married Guy refers to his wife as a bitch and envies all the single people he knows. He gets divorced, regresses in maturity by about twenty years and hits on every woman with a pulse who is completely out of his league. Repeated rejections and a lot of nights at home alone make him pine for his ex-wife. He finds out that she won't take him back because her life improved post-divorce. Then, he turns into Bitter Divorced Guy and refers to all women as bitches.

I came across a few men who overestimate their value. Most of them are mamma's boys who had a sunshine shined into their ass by their momma's. From their early days they were told how "special" and "precious" they were and how most women are just not good enough and how they can just do so much better. Yeah, basically raised as mr Prince. Later in life, mr Prince thinks he is a God's gift to women and can't even imagine being anything less than that. Mr Price eventually ends up divorced, paying child support and alimony, blaming women for everything. Good times.

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mrs. chinaski
@ New model is his idea. One of his colleagues (the same age) married young woman
and they have a baybee. In addition to this, women in EE.

Well you know, that is a thing. They have men's groups online that encourage this. They shame men (and of course women) who don't breed, saying the man is beta if he doesn't use his seed.

Many of us know of men who have gone to poorer countries to find young breeder brides. That used to be a bit questionable, but not so much anymore. It's probably more acceptable than being childfree.

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mrs. chinaski
You are very well informed...

I've lived in Germany, although not as long as you, so I have some idea of what it is like.

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blondie
Well you know, that is a thing. They have men's groups online that encourage this. They shame men (and of course women) who don't breed, saying the man is beta if he doesn't use his seed.

If those men groups really preach "newer models", they are having one hell of a pipe dream. Times have changed and these guys are living out the good ole days from the 1950's and 1960's.

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blondie
Many of us know of men who have gone to poorer countries to find young breeder brides.

I have worked in different places around the world. Quality women in poorer countries don't line up for western men the way the media makes it sound. The kind of women that line up to "snatch up" a westerner are not exactly the kind of women that will stick around. We all know what kind of "companionship" they are offering and such "companionship" can be found locally without having to travel the world.

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blondie
That used to be a bit questionable, but not so much anymore. It's probably more acceptable than being childfree.

That may have been questionable because those brides took off as soon as they got their "green cards". Now that divorce attorneys have figured out what kind of steady stream of income such divorces do provide, they now do not want to compromise that.

.

A ) Get a job
B ) Get a trial separation
C ) Start preparing for a divorce just in case

_______________________________________________________________

"It is better not to look like what you are; it is better to look like a bourgeois woman because then all the doors are open for you and then you can just go and make hell." - Marjane Satrapi

Mrs. Chinaski:

There is no delicate way of putting this, but the fact your husband talks about you at his workplace tells me he does not respect his marriage nor relationship with you.

I am sorry you're going through all this but maybe you should talk to him about this - and see a marriage counselor if necessary.

Good luck.

@ happyhiker: so funny
"married men tend to vastly overestimate their value on the open market"
- I've seen it too. I've seen men who tried to get someone younger. They ended up with a woman who was
in the same age category as their ex.

@ addiea raine: I agree.

I implemented the "marriage 180" the same day I read about it.
It didn't work. DH was even more hostile, PA and louder than usually.
As he noticed I changed "something", he also became suspicious.
Now he thinks something is up.
This threatens the progress of the project Exit.
I must slow down, one move at a time.
At this point, I don't believe that my marriage is viable.

Thank you all!

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mrs.Chinaski
This threatens the progress of the project Exit.

Project Exit, no matter how carefully planned, it rarely ends up going smoothly or as planned.

Don't feel bad if things go south as you are trying sort stuff out - you are only human.

Like I said before, it all starts with someone wanting to breed. The rest collapses because of it. I've been there.

This might make you feel better:

http://www.divorce360.com/divorce-articles/finance/costs/divorce--100000.aspx?artid=1118

But for a couple with an average income of $60,000 a year, at least one child and a home worth $185,000, the average cost of a divorce using U.S. Census statistics would be about $53,000.

Mrs. C -

I thought of another factor here - "Peer Pressure".

He is repeating what other men in his field are telling him. And he seems to be going along with it -

A strong minded person would ignore it.

As well as those who wish to rise above the 'rank and file' - will ignore it.

It comes from "The top down" also. It's Capitalism, it's business. It's the concept of "Highest and best use" -

Capitalism demands ever more consumers so the 'highest and best use' of females is - to produce more consumers. It has to be, to conform to our present economic models.

There have been some 'shifts' in this thinking, due to over population. China and Russia as example. But even they too - have now gone back to Pro Natalist policies. You could say it's an economic 'arms race' - of bodies. And who will produce them? Women.

Germany is presently - the econ growth has slowed a bit, but you're still good there -
But also - Xenophobia. Immigrants to the EU has people pannicking.

And Biz is very conservative. An old 'saying' - "Business is War". These people - see you - as a producer of consumers. There is racism involved here too, with the changing mix of peoples in EU. Doesn't have to ME or Africans either - coarse Poles are enough to scare people. (Although the women are OK - because they will breed WHITE children. Same in the US - people bitch about Mexicans coming in - no one seems to notice all the Polish women coming in here. Oh right, they're white.)

Why I am saying this is - your H is falling for this. It's a combination of Capitalist and Nationalist Propaganda as well as "Misery Loves Company".

"The guys at the office" are telling him tales - they were sheep that followed, and they are trying to convince him, too. And where they got their brainwashing from - Capitalist Propaganda. From the top down. The Company he works for encourages it. ALL businesses want Family Men. They are easier to control. And they're breeding More Consumers.

Your H's co workers bragging on younger wives and kids - THEY fell for it. The 'hook' for them is - get a younger wife and have kids. They see a sexy young hottie - and they fell for it.

This is also why - these types will NEVER be leaders nor entrepreneurs. The fell in line, they took the bait, they did like their friends at the office, they did not "think outside of the box".

And because they can be controlled - this is what Biz wants. Trapped with kids and thus controlled. Some MORON is going to kow tow to the company line for DECADES just for a piece of hot pussy NOW? That'll last about 20 minutes until she gets knocked up?

If your H is following along with what these other men are saying, telling him to do - he isn't very smart. He's 'going along'. He's listening to others who have 'gone along'. And if he's floundering in his career somewhat - he's ripe for "conversion". Just do what we say and you'll be OK. Be like us.

Men can get sucked into breeding too. Usually via this "Biz Propaganda". Why does biz want it? Two ways - it breeds more consumers, and it keeps people locked in and working, to make profits for the Company. It's harder for Parents to leave, than it is for Singles and the CF. Which is why the better jobs are not usually given to such people, even if they have the education and experience. A Childed person - can be much more easily controlled - Male or Female.

Get rid of your wife and get a younger one and have kids like us?
They're trying to sucker him in via pussy. Is he so stupid to fall for this?

And it's not even anything the biz will give him, either! They don't have to pay anything for this - all they have to do is dangle some boobs and crotch in front of him! Get a younger woman! Have babies! They do nothing, and if he falls for it - they have him locked in. He must do what they say now, and work ever harder - because he has a Famblee to support now.

Is your H so stupid as to not see through these tactics?

If he is that stupid - you need to get rid of him.

Corporate Stooges are Corporate Stooges and IMO YOU are smarter than this!

You DO need to get your own life going - you can point out these thoughts to him as well. He might 'get it'. He might not. Either way - you need to get something going for yourself.

@ Zzelda: You are right, peer pressure is a factor too.

We discussed a lot of stuff on weekend.
I am sure it's not about exchanging the "oldtimer".
It's not old vs young issue.

IMHO he has a serious case of baybee rabies and he
would jump on literally anyone who would promise
him a baybee.

One of the discussions we had was about his career/job.
He told me that he is tired from commuting.
He feels that he is under such a pressure (money earning pressure).
We have no time for each other, he has no time for himself etc.
He told me that he would like to stop working before the retirement.
I used this opportunity to get back to baybee.
I told him that when he thinks that he is under pressure now, it’s nothing
against the pressure he will face when he has a chyld.
He will have even less time for himself and he will work till he drops dead.
Then he suddenly told me the exact opposite – there is no pressure at all,
it’s not that bad, everything is just fine, it’s all completely different with baybee.
It doesn’t make any sense to discuss with him anything.

@ Freya: We had acquaintances who got divorced.
I don't know what was the amount in dispute but their divorce
cost over 200k. They didn't agree on anything and went through
all instances.