When breeders know your feelings better than you

This would count as a bingo and perhaps i shouldn't give it too much attention but it disturbed me quite a lot and i'll tell you why. I met this woman at a seminar about marketing and customer service. We were in the same working group and after the session we went for lunch. She asked me if i have kids and i said no. She asked for how long have i been married and i told her, along with the fact that i don't want kids ever.

At this point she shook her head and told me that i haven't met the right person. I opened my mouth to tell her how impolite that remark is but she continued and explained to me that she really believes i care about my husband from the way i talk about him but he's not that guy who is able to awake certain feelings inside me. She went on saying that it's normal for women to care about certain men but not want kids with them because this primal instinct that we all have and makes us want to reproduce is not activated by anybody. I added that's insane because some women have kids with different men and i doubt they do care about this primal instinct and finding The One. She explained that women are different, some have kids with different men, others need to find The One but basically we all have this reproduction instinct, it just has not been awaken.

To be honest, this freaked me out a bit because if i think how me and DH started out, i can say it was "sweep me off my feet" -type. We started as friends and the things just developed without butterflies and rainbows. It made me think, is there really such a thing that a dude will just make you lose your mind and you start thinking OMG this is the one i want to have baybeees with? I really doubt so, but what do i know, she's the one my mom's age who has so much experience in life and definitely knows about primal instincts and shit.

I have been reading about this basic reproductive instinct in other places and the idea behind it was that us CF make a conscious decision not to have kids but we all have this instinct, we just suppress it and in some of us will come out at one point, triggered by different factors. This really scares me. :/

While i cannot speak on your feelings for your husband, what this lady said is absolute nonsense. She is lumping all women into one category. Dont let her get to you. She must be quite egocentric tilo believe all women feel tge same as her.

This woman sounds like a psycho-babbling ditz.

I believe humans have an innate desire for SEX. Not having kyds. SEX. It's why, when couples are in the infatuation stage, they have lots of SEX because Nature wants to trick us and into continuing the species. However, when you are in the infatuation stage, that's the WORST time to decide you want to have kids. People should use BC and fuck each other silly for about four years (if you last that long.) Still like each other after 4-5 years? Do you both want kids for the right reasons and can you afford them? Okay, maybe you can have one in a few years. .

Look around at all these idiots who meet, marry and sprong within 3-4 years and they wonder why their lives suck. They are stuck with people they can't stand and oh yay! now they have kids and everyone's miserable.

Look, don't let this old biddy sell you a bunch of psycho-babbling shite and tell you your perfectly functional relationship is garbage because you don't have a Grand Passion to Have Baybees. Does that even make any sense? Because scientific studies show people who have kids are less happy for many years. If you really LUUUUVVVVVV your partner, why would you WANT to sprog and ruin things? (And she's talking blithely about serial marriages and serial breeding? Those situations are always a disaster for the kids when they become "back of the couchers" and have to navigate "blended fambilies." Jeez won't someone think of the CHIDDRUN and stop rationalizing putting their kyds through Hell because their "reproductive instincts" made them do it!)

And there are plenty of people, myself included, who are 50+ and who have never wanted kyds for one instant. In fact, if I could go back and hug my younger self, I would. My life is fabulous at 50+ and it's just getting more so.

That's what i've also read and it sounds very logical, however some dispute that behind the sex desire is actually the desire to reproduce or they are one and the same. Dating in the first stages can be like that, that is the first stage passion which will fade after few years, i noticed that with other couples and quite many did actually have baybees within the first two years (which i think it's crazy, but that's not my business anyway).

I never had a desire to have kids, not when i met my husband or now, 10 years into our relationship. I have been interested in these kind of arguments because i have got them recently, directly or indirectly. It also has to do with the biological clock and being 30 or over. I believe that it's just a scam to scare women into breeding but i'm willing to see other points of view.

Another part which contributed to me freaking out is that i know two persons who actually split up/remarried and have kids with the actual partner after saying that they never wanted kids before. I didn't ask them why since we are not close but i can't help wonder.

Someone once told me that the answer to all that is if you can't outsmart instincts and/or genes then you pretty much have a room temp or less IQ. I said this to a breeder once. Breeder shut up

Yep, pretty much just a hopped-up, psychobabbled version of "you just haven't met the right person/I used to think that, too, then I met (S.O.'s name)." An expanded, pseudo-intellectualized bingo.

People say it's that we want to reproduce...but it's that Ma Nature has smartly attached a TON of pleasure and bonding potential to the sex act itself. People don't want to admit they like that---especially women, because women get a lot of fucked-up baggage about sex and whether they should like/enjoy it. So they see it was wanting kids, not wanting and enjoying sex.

And this is why some childed people have a serious hate-on for those skip parenthood: we have successfully de-coupled sex and reproduction, we have purely recreational sex (with no pregnancies to "punish" us for it), and we're getting away with it. We managed to work our way through what really are separate things, and they hate us for seeing through the bullshit that they themselves bought into.

I think this is bullshit. I'm past the age where I should have had my biological clock, if there were such a thing, well and truly going off. I'm past the age where they start to give you dire warnings about your ovaries drying up.

I've had both types of relationships: head over heels crazy in love, and the gradual ripening and deepening of what began as a friendship, and neither made me want to reproduce.

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blackpearl
Another part which contributed to me freaking out is that i know two persons who actually split up/remarried and have kids with the actual partner after saying that they never wanted kids before. I didn't ask them why since we are not close but i can't help wonder.

Some people panic at the thought of choice being removed and then decide to jump into having children. I would not pay them any heed: just because they decided to breed doesn't mean you will.

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blackpearl
This would count as a bingo and perhaps i shouldn't give it too much attention but it disturbed me quite a lot and i'll tell you why. I met this woman at a seminar about marketing and customer service. We were in the same working group and after the session we went for lunch. She asked me if i have kids and i said no. She asked for how long have i been married and i told her, along with the fact that i don't want kids ever.

At this point she shook her head and told me that i haven't met the right person. I opened my mouth to tell her how impolite that remark is but she continued and explained to me that she really believes i care about my husband from the way i talk about him but he's not that guy who is able to awake certain feelings inside me. She went on saying that it's normal for women to care about certain men but not want kids with them because this primal instinct that we all have and makes us want to reproduce is not activated by anybody. I added that's insane because some women have kids with different men and i doubt they do care about this primal instinct and finding The One. She explained that women are different, some have kids with different men, others need to find The One but basically we all have this reproduction instinct, it just has not been awaken.

To be honest, this freaked me out a bit because if i think how me and DH started out, i can say it was "sweep me off my feet" -type. We started as friends and the things just developed without butterflies and rainbows. It made me think, is there really such a thing that a dude will just make you lose your mind and you start thinking OMG this is the one i want to have baybeees with? I really doubt so, but what do i know, she's the one my mom's age who has so much experience in life and definitely knows about primal instincts and shit.

I have been reading about this basic reproductive instinct in other places and the idea behind it was that us CF make a conscious decision not to have kids but we all have this instinct, we just suppress it and in some of us will come out at one point, triggered by different factors. This really scares me. :/

Human beings aren't just a bundle of instincts, even if we do have the instinct to replicate. And even if you do have said instinct, it could come out in different ways. Some women 'breed' projects, some songs, some books they wrote. We are not simple mice that crap out babies.

+++++++++++++

Passive Aggressive
Master Of Anti-brat
Excuses!

Speaking for myself, I had crushes/relationships where I was crazy in love
but I never wanted to have a baybee, I only wanted the man.

This woman works at the same organization as i do so i couldn't really tell her what was on my mind about the whole breeding instinct. I just nodded and let her talk until the subject was changed.

@randomcfchick: That quite true about women admitting they enjoy sex just for the sake of it. I was called a whore once when i said i don't want kids and as i noticed later i wasn't the only one receiving this "compliment". Because women who don't want kids and actually have sex are...*sigh* hoes. This is actually mra mentality...seen it quite a lot in their circles both at men and women.

I don't know, i might have this instinct but i'm not defined by it and never had. If some people put it above logic, it's their problem. This woman sounded like she was trying to convince me of something. Actually, evolutionary psychology explains lots of our behavior in terms of reproduction. I remember reading some stuff and feeling quite revolted. For, example men like certain body types and features in a woman because they scan for fertility, as the same goes in women. Basically most of our behavior is already defined by our ancestors and today's technology is clashing with our primal instincts.

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mrs. chinaski
Speaking for myself, I had crushes/relationships where I was crazy in love
but I never wanted to have a baybee, I only wanted the man.

Same here, but let the guy talk about "having a family" (weird that they always see it as sort of a "package" thing) and all-of-a-sudden, opposing forces hit. I still thought the guy was hot, but an increasing sense of revulsion would begin. The ovaries might be spinning, but a stronger sense of preservation was telling me that my life with him would suck soooo bad.

I agree with all of the above comments that the "instinct" to sprog is just a desire to Frick frack.

I am a repulsed asexual, and I guarantee you I have 0 desire to reproduce. With anyone. Even as a kid, before I knew what asexuality was and when I still thought having kids WASN'T a choice, I pictured myself adopting.

Extrapolating my personal experiences, I would hazard a guess that most non-straight people feel the same way. My guess is that there are two "instincts", but people don't necessarily always have both or satisfy them in the same way: The desire for Frick fracks and the desire to nurture something.

CF gays and lesbians experience the former and not the latter. Gays and lesbians that experience both may choose to adopt, use a surrogate, or satisfy their desire to nurture by caring for plants or animals.

Straight people could experience either. My brother and SIL were, and they admit this themselves, a case of the former. They had kids by accident and they never really wanted to raise kids. My mother is an example of the latter, she wanted to love people and care for them so she adopted my sister and I.

People are hugely complex, and can't, at least in my opinion, be reduced to instinct. If you would excuse my appeal to celebrity, I would like to add that my opinion is shared by Maslow, Bugental, and Rogers. This bitch telling you that everyone has a hidden desire for bio kids is being really heteronormative.

Lock him up or put him down.
Stolen from Shiny.

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blackpearl
She explained that women are different, some have kids with different men, others need to find The One

If this stupid cow can understand that some women want to have kids with a lot of men, and others want to have kids with one man, why can't she wrap her head around the idea that some women just don't want kids?

My answer to the "you just haven't met the right man" bingo has always been, "The right man for me won't want kids, either." And he doesn't.

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contemplativeintrovert
People are hugely complex, and can't, at least in my opinion, be reduced to instinct. If you would excuse my appeal to celebrity, I would like to add that my opinion is shared by Maslow, Bugental, and Rogers. This bitch telling you that everyone has a hidden desire for bio kids is being really heteronormative.

WORD.

People are complicated...to me, fascinatingly so. A lot of people with the "get married, have babies" mentality often refuse to acknowledge that complexity, let alone examine it. And refusing to examine what makes us tick can cause people at TON of problems in relationship. Super-heteronormativity (is that a word? is now!) can make a lot of people miserable...including those who are hetero!

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Dorisan

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mrs. chinaski
Speaking for myself, I had crushes/relationships where I was crazy in love
but I never wanted to have a baybee, I only wanted the man.

Same here, but let the guy talk about "having a family" (weird that they always see it as sort of a "package" thing) and all-of-a-sudden, opposing forces hit. I still thought the guy was hot, but an increasing sense of revulsion would begin. The ovaries might be spinning, but a stronger sense of preservation was telling me that my life with him would suck soooo bad.

It is as you say - sense of preservation will eventually beat "love".

That's exactly what happened in my marriage. I loved my DH and the marriage was good till he "changed his mind".
Then the love was somehow gone.

I think when you are CF woman and the guy starts talking about chyldrun, it is like as if he prefered someone else to you
and you are only means to an end. So basically, you are not important at all. Anyone who will give him what he wants will do.

This maybe OT but there is also another factor. I believe that some people are able to develop very deep feelings for someone and some people aren't.
I would say that the probability is high that a CF person is the one who can love deeply.
You have certainly noticed that some breeders act as if people were disposable - like "you like Chinese food and I like Indian food, we cannot be together"
and that's it.

Back to the topic - my sister's doc attended a conference and they said that 10% of women have no maternal feelings whatsover and that the numbers
are rising over the course of time.

I personally believe "reproductive psychology" is a bunch of crap. All these "studies*" about how men prefer women with a certain bust-to-waist ratio, therefore they are subconsciously seeking fertile women? Correlation doesn't mean causation and those studies don't consider the very real impact that porn has had on society's tastes. Most women who work in the porn industry have been surgically altered to look a certain way, and given a choice, men will pick that body type.

Also, when it comes to studies, I always ask myself: who funded the study; could someone possibly have a hidden agenda and oh yeah, who paid for the study. (stated twice, deliberately.) And let's not forget a recent review of 100 psychology studies that were published and treated as gospel revealed that many could not be replicated

Psychology and sociology are influenced by fads and trends. In the 30's and 40's some psychologists and doctors thought nothing of recommending lobotomies for people who were slow and/or women who expressed perfectly natural sexual urges. (Rose Kennedy, anyone?)

Let's not forget psychology is also responsible for the bullshit that is extended breastfeeding (keeping women placated and at home) attachment parunting, over diagnosis of ADHD, oppositional-defiant disorder, and I could go on.

ITA, bell flower, psychology is becoming more of a BS science all the time. Thirty years ago I majored in psych and music, and psych at one time did actual studies to explain human behavior. Now it's a lot of nonsense about deciding what's hot to the opposite sex (I.e. "Evolutionary Psych"). Totally bogus and impossible to verify the results. So no, that doesn't qualify as science.

I knew pretty early that kyds didn't interest me; I didn't even like to play house in kindergarten. Even meeting my Better Half never really changed my opinion, and thank Dog he didn't have a jonesing for kyds either. It shouldn't mean a damn thing to outsiders, including wannabe grandparents. Fortunately our parents never gave us grief--they already had a number of grand sprogs. It just seems that conformity means an awful lot to the average person, and a nonconformist is pretty scary to the insecure.

That was what I was told when I was younger too, that "when I met the right one" I'd want kids. Before I knew about the CF community, I didn't really have the backbone to shut that shit down. I met "the right one" and of course I still had no magical desire to have kids. My husband was a fence sitter when I met him, but I was honest from the start. I said if he wanted kids it wasn't going to work between us and he was fine with not having them. With him it was more like "If it happens it happens, if it doesn't that's fine too". It wasn't a burning desire for him. I was the one who pushed him over the fence into being CF.

You should have told her "Well if you think sex is just for making babies than if you're done having kids, you should never have sex again, not even for pleasure." That would have shut her up quick.

Or

"At least in my relationship with my SO / Hubby we have the love for each other and time to spend together to strengthen our relationship instead of just co-existing."


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They are having children for selfish and narcissistic reasons, or are simply irresponsible. Funny... Those are the terms often used to describe the CF

~Live, Laugh, Love~

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creativelycf
You should have told her "Well if you think sex is just for making babies than if you're done having kids, you should never have sex again, not even for pleasure."

Oh, I like that answer!

I never understood "you will want to have kids when you meet the right person" either. If I love someone why would I want to fuck up the relationship by bringing a nasty demanding brat into it? And wanting or not wanting kids is a huge part of compatibility. There is no way to compromise on that one in a way that will satisfy both people.

The physical features that indicate fertility also indicate the person is likely to be young and healthy. Maybe one or both of those qualities are what people are really looking for in a partner, and the fertility is just a side effect?

It seems that evolutionary psychology is used a lot by heteronormative, conservative circles to explain that men and women have certain roles in society for them and their preferences are deeply rooted in their biology. I did suffer a lot because of this throughout my life and i recently realized some bitter truth regarding my career choices (yes, i was discouraged as a kid to pursue anything that is viewed as "masculine"). And now, to wake up and to realize that i would have actually thrived in such a field, especially because i will never have kids.

All women around me have started to breed like rabbits, i'm left all alone and made to feel that i have no purpose in life especially that in my work field things are, well, disastrous right now. And then comes the know-it-all-idiots who explain my biology and how am i supposed to feel. And yes, it scares me because i'm not like the 98% of women and i keep wondering where have i gone wrong. Because everything and almost everybody around me makes me feel i'm out of place.

So if meeting the right person will make you want to have kids, then wouldn't we as an "advanced" species have evolved to only be able to have kids with Mr./Miss Right? Like when you instinctively know you're with The One^TM, you can control your fertility in order to reproduce? Given all the welfare whores whose brats all have different fathers, obviously The One_TM isn't the only one who will send your loins all aquiver.

I always hated the "you'll want to have kids once you meet the right person" bingo. It's a big slap in the face to anyone who is in a committed relationship; they're basically saying that your relationship isn't real or meaningful because the person you're with doesn't make you want to breed with them. They're also saying that they somehow know you, your body and your desires more than you yourself do. You've been you all your life and they only just met you, yet they know what's best for you better than you do? How's that work, exactly? It makes CFers sound like flaky little children. If you've got something good with someone, why ruin it with kids? I have never in my life known anyone whose relationship was improved or strengthened after having kids. Sure, they might be able to power through it without murdering their kids and still be able to tolerate one another at best, but kids never change people for the better.

And for the ones who say that we have a natural instinct to breed, then why do we have to be slave to our bodies? Biology is not destiny - just because you can do something doesn't mean you need to. Our biology tells us that pain is a bad thing, yet we have masochists. Humans are born with a specific gender, yet people can have their bodies surgically altered to be a different gender. We are not a monogamous species by nature, yet we stay in monogamous relationships. Fuck, I can make it even simpler: our hair and nails are naturally supposed to grow and be oily, yet we interfere with their growth and condition regularly by cutting them and putting chemicals all over them and washing them, sometimes paying money to have it done. The definition of modern human nature is finding ways to get around nature.

And what about people who are infertile who pursue medical means in order to conceive? Their biology is telling them they shouldn't be having kids, so why is it okay for them to go against nature and make kids via artificial means, but it's not okay for us to go against nature and refrain from reproducing simply because we don't want to? Why can't it be the other way around? Why can't someone who wants kids meet the right person and that person makes them not want to breed? Why can meeting The One_TM only awaken a desire to breed rather than kill it? Funny how that pendulum only swings one way. I'm sure there are people out there who look at their awesome relationships and go, "Y'know what? I feel like my life is finally complete. Let's not add more people to it."

Not everyone has the same desires. Plain and simple. Just because I have a uterus doesn't mean I have any desire to fill it with fetuses. Reproduction is an interesting "instinct" because humans not only have the parts to make it happen, but it's not a function that is required to sustain one's life and it's one we can consciously deny because we're smarter than our primal urges. It's not like someone can wake up one day and decide they don't want to urinate ever again because it's going to happen whether they like it or not, and if you take steps to make it stop happening, you'll probably die. Most people have a desire for sex, whether it's just for physical satisfaction or there's an emotional connection to it as well. Reproduction just happens to be an unfortunate side effect of sex, which we've found ways of avoiding because humans are good at flipping nature the bird.

Finding the "right person" to ignite your desire to breed is one of the most retarded bingoes in the breeder repertoire. I think they're just pissed off when they see people in happy, stable relationships who were smart enough to not ruin things with kids like breeders did. So rather than telling us we're making the right choice, they'd rather drag us down with them by telling us our choices are unnatural and our relationships/marriages are invalid because they don't produce children. Besides, if having kids with Mr./Miss Right is what you're supposed to do, then why do so many parents get divorced or break up? Does that mean that the man was Mr. Right to the woman, but she wasn't Miss Right to him (and vice versa, or Mr./Mr. and Miss/Miss)?

The only thing she was right about is that all women (and men) are different! I could never stand the thought of being a mother, I don't have that instinct. People have tried to tell me I do because I love animals so much. Well, I enjoy cuddling various cute animals, I don't like holding babies.

The rudeness of telling someone they just met that their husband isn't the right man for them is off the charts! She had to be stroking her own ego.