Breeders co-opt the "Me Too" movement

I've lived through situations that put me in the "me too" movement and I think it's generally positive. However, I came across this opinion piece (that was re-tweeted by a blogger we've occasionally snarked on) that is so completely inane and offensive, I had to share.

The title is, "20 things men can do to support women beyond just literally ceasing to sexually harass us" and it ventured into ridiculousness such as:

- mandating that menstrual products not be taxed and provided free in workplaces

- "Vocally advocate at your workplace for longer and more egalitarian paid parental leave, whether or not parenthood is part of your life. Advocate for lactation spaces. Advocate for on-site or subsidized childcare."

- "Befriend children." Yes, it's seriously on this stupid list.

- as is, "Talk less. In all spaces. At all times. At a lower volume."

Can you imagine the outrage if someone wrote the above about women?

How about sticking to the basics: don't be a predator, don't engage in non-consensual sex, drop the attitude that rich and powerful people are entitled to take advantage of those who are not, call out your buddies if you see them abusing women, support your local domestic violence shelter, etc.

I thought it was about not being a predator or supporting predators, but silly me, it's really about Moo or "female" issues and of course, brats!

I can buy my own menstrual products, thanks, just let me do my job without being required to put out or put up with obnoxious personal remarks that shouldn't be part of the job anyway.

This irks me as well. Can people please, PLEASE, stop equating women’s issues with MOTHER issues? Being a woman does not a mother make. As a female {I don’t like calling myself a woman because it makes me feel old but to each their own} I care about;

Not being raped / sexually assaulted, women in general not being raped / sexually assaulted, stricter punishments for perpetrators of rape / sexual assault, equal pay, social equality {The misogynistic things I’ve heard ranges from ‘women should know their place,’ to ‘rape is natural,’ ‘rape happens for a reason,’ ‘and rape should be legal.’}

As a female I DON’T care about
People being friendly to children in general {I’m not because I don’t like them.}, lactating spaces, paid Moo leave {I’m anti population growth}, anything about the welfare of children,

Equating women’s issues with mothers issues delegitimizates women’s issues. Dismantling the patriarchy boils down to ‘having a dck doesn’t make you better, stop acting like it and stop harassing us,’ NOT ‘having a child makes you better, idolize children.’

Lock him up or put him down.
Stolen from Shiny.

That article was nothing but SJW authoritarian nonsense. I'll break it down point by point, from my point of view, of course...

Quote
Article
Overcome your own transphobia. Trans women are women. Trans men are men. Accept the lived truth of NB and GNC people, whether or not they are women.

No they are not. People with penises are not women. People with vaginas are not men. Cutting body parts off or sewing artificial ones on doesn't change that fact. Neither does drugging oneself with steroids or hormones. When a person says what is true, that does not indicate that they have a phobia of some sort.

That being said, every person has every right to dress however they please, take whatever drugs they want, and partake in elective surgeries (at their own cost). And they should be treated with courtesy and decency. But they do not have the right to demand that the rest of us partake in their fantasies. Courtesy is a two-way street.

Quote
Article
Support subsidized birth control. Support women’s healthcare. Support women’s preventative healthcare. Support medical trials that include (or even prioritize) women.

I haven't met any woman, other than my mother or significant others', that cared about my health, my healthcare, and/or the health issues that men deal with. Therefore, I won't be "prioritizing" any specific sex when it comes to healthcare. Affordable healthcare for all should be the objective.

Quote
Article
Support nontaxed menstrual products. Ask your workplace if tampons and pads are free. If they’re not, advocate for them to be free. Get over any embarrassment you may have about menstruation.

Why would a workplace provide "free" tampons? Nothing is "free." Everything comes at a cost. Whether it's lower wages for all or higher costs to the customer, "free" tampons would mean one or the other.

Are male toiletries "free?" Last I checked razorblades, shave gel, jock itch powder... all come at a cost. And the employer does not provide this "for free." Nor should they. And nor should the ladies be required to subsidize these products.

Quote
Article
Vocally advocate at your workplace for longer and more egalitarian paid parental leave, whether or not parenthood is part of your life. Advocate for lactation spaces. Advocate for on-site or subsidized childcare.

More "free" stuff?!? Imagine your paycheck if all of this stuff was implemented!

Ladies on this board... are you ready to pay for a lactation space at work? How about a daycare? How about paid parental leave? And how much are you willing to pay for this, per year? All of this stuff comes at a big cost. But it's all for The Sisterhood (TM)! What say you?

Quote
Article
Tell your elected officials that you are a man who votes and you prioritize women’s issues when you decide who to vote for. Then actually prioritize women’s issues when you decide who to vote for. Understand that women’s issues are your issues.

How about we simply prioritize preserving individual rights and liberties, and focus on eliminating laws from the books, rather than creating ever more bureaucracy?

Quote
Article
Whenever you are in a group composed of only men (whether it’s social, work, church, or whatever) ask yourself why there are no women present. Then ask out loud why. Force an honest answer.

I'm not familiar with any exclusively-male churches or exclusively-male workplaces. And socially, all of us have the FREEDOM to associate with whomever we want. If some guys want to hang with other guys, and some ladies prefer the company of other ladies... so what?

Why does this person want to control who you associate with?

Quote
Article
Cultivate genuine, intimate, nonsexual friendships with women.

What if neither party desires that? Why must they conform to YOUR standards?

Quote
article
Deprogram your beliefs about thinness being an optimal state of feminine beauty. Deprogram your beliefs that your desire matters in determining a woman’s worth.

Desire determines EVERYONE'S worth, you fucking moron. Guys who want to get laid are looking for their best and most attractive option. Women who want to get laid are doing the same when they look at men.

Desire, in the moment, matters across all avenues of life!

For example, if I really need a plumber, the best carpenter in town isn't who I desire to show up at my door. If I'm hungry, heading to the local barber isn't going to placate my desire. If I need to see my brother in Phoenix, I log onto an airline website, not Amazon. This does not mean that the carpenter, the barber, or Amazon are worthless. It means that different people have different needs and different desires at different times.

Ladies and gentlemen you have a right to be attracted to whoever you want (18+) and for whatever reasons you want, and you should not feel one ounce of guilt about it, no matter what this presumably frumpy woman declares.

Quote
Article
Jerk off without porn for a while. EDIT: This really should be “Pay for your porn.” In particular, seek out (and pay for) porn that’s made by women, queer people, and people of color, and that’s produced ethically. Consume sexual culture as thoughtfully as you would consume any culture. (Thanks to Jillian and others for helping me reframe this.)

I don't own any porno but I'd imagine that paying for porno is going the way of the dodo bird. Since porn theatres and VHS tapes are a relic of the past, and considering that anyone can become a "porn star" via a cell phone video upload, I'd venture to say that the days of people paying big-$ to simply watch other people having sex are going to be coming to an end, in our lifetime.

Quote
Article
Detach yourself from straw-man definitions for hot-button issues (intersectionality, cultural appropriation, political correctness, preferred pronouns, etc.) and learn what they’re really about. Unpack the real meanings behind phrases like “SJW” and “feminazi.” Believe people when they say they’re in pain.

Bullshit. We don't believe people uncritically and without evidence. And we shouldn't let people exercise ruthless authoritarianism against us. We have as much right to free speech and expression as the SJWs. Their PC restrictions, victim culture, and attempts to intimidate otherwise decent people will be met with resistance.

Quote
Article
Prioritize kindness.

And who defines kindness? An authoritarian such as the author who wants to trample others' speech, expression, and property rights?

Quote
Article
Befriend children.

Says every Chester Molester.

I think the "MeToo" movement started out with good intentions, but it's morphing into ridiculous bullshit. When I first heard about it, I thought that it would have the potential to make the public become "Judge, jury and executioner" of people who are unable to defend themselves. There's a Canadian politician, his name eludes me now, who wound up being accused and his career is now ruined. It turns out that the accusation was false.

I've read some feminist articles about how this movement could potentially set women back in the workplace and turn us into perpetual victims if this trend continues. If I could find the website again, I'll link it here. I've read it and it makes a lot of sense.

I do know that there has been a lot of sexual misconduct that has been thankfully exposed, such as Roy Moore, but there have been innocent people taken down as well.

I am a victim of sexual assault and I don't see this as a good thing. I think that things can be taken out of context. I also don't think that a man touching a woman's arm in the workplace is the same as a true victim who has been physically sexually raped. Sure, it may be uncomfortable and squicky, but I can honestly say I've been on the receiving end of some flirtation in my working life, not when I was a PSO, but working in a medical office. It wasn't really a big deal, and I handled it appropriately. Being fucking raped by a family member multiple times when you're helpless is a whole 'nother thing.

Please don't mind my mixed thoughts. I was up late last night and had a few drinks. Feeling a little hung over today.

Quote
mumofsixbirds
I think the "MeToo" movement started out with good intentions, but it's morphing into ridiculous bullshit. When I first heard about it, I thought that it would have the potential to make the public become "Judge, jury and executioner" of people who are unable to defend themselves. There's a Canadian politician, his name eludes me now, who wound up being accused and his career is now ruined. It turns out that the accusation was false.

I've read some feminist articles about how this movement could potentially set women back in the workplace and turn us into perpetual victims if this trend continues. If I could find the website again, I'll link it here. I've read it and it makes a lot of sense.

I do know that there has been a lot of sexual misconduct that has been thankfully exposed, such as Roy Moore, but there have been innocent people taken down as well.

I am a victim of sexual assault and I don't see this as a good thing. I think that things can be taken out of context. I also don't think that a man touching a woman's arm in the workplace is the same as a true victim who has been physically sexually raped. Sure, it may be uncomfortable and squicky, but I can honestly say I've been on the receiving end of some flirtation in my working life, not when I was a PSO, but working in a medical office. It wasn't really a big deal, and I handled it appropriately. Being fucking raped by a family member multiple times when you're helpless is a whole 'nother thing.

Please don't mind my mixed thoughts. I was up late last night and had a few drinks. Feeling a little hung over today.

In my estimation, in certain cases, the crime of rape should warrant the death penalty. It's an abhorrent crime and should be punished as such. My taking these positions should demonstrate that when it comes to rape, I'm hardly a proponent of handling the crime with kid gloves.

But even more important than punishment, is the concept of due process. Those among us who are accused (of any crime) have the right to due process. They have a right to a public trial, to legal representation, to a trial by jury, to call witnesses, and to cross-examine the witnesses of the prosecution.

You are correct that the reputations of some people have been sullied by this #MeToo witch hunt. And yes, it's a witch hunt. Getting behind a keyboard and destroying the reputation of another person when you yourself have nothing at stake is not brave, it's actually a sign of cowardice. If the person you are accusing is in fact guilty, it's hardly heroic on the accusers part to shy away from a trial, thereby leaving a dangerous rapist on the loose to victimize others!

I believe those who commit acts of sexual assault should face capital punishment or decades in prison. But I'm not going to advocate either simply because of a #MeToo hashtag regarding a date-gone-wrong back in 1978. Ladies you're going to have to bring more evidence to the table. And the rights of all parties, prosecution and defense, are going to be respected and the justice system will have to play out, before we dole out punishment.

As for sexual harassment, I (generally) stick with "Good Morning... Good Afternoon... Have a great day..." as far as workplace conversation goes. The purpose of going to work is to WORK. Employers are not matchmakers, not singles mixers, not a hookup app. Guys who are still grabbing asses at work are morons and deserve to be fired. Guys (and gals) who are dating their coworkers need to understand that when the relationship goes sour, faux tales of "sexual harassment" are a distinct possibility. And employers should have the right to inform potential employees that in-house fraternization is not permitted.

Quote
mumofsixbirds
I think the "MeToo" movement started out with good intentions, but it's morphing into ridiculous bullshit. When I first heard about it, I thought that it would have the potential to make the public become "Judge, jury and executioner" of people who are unable to defend themselves. There's a Canadian politician, his name eludes me now, who wound up being accused and his career is now ruined. It turns out that the accusation was false.

Patrick Brown is the former and recently resigned leader of the Ontario Progressive Conservative Party.

He is not necessarily innocent, but after being forced to resign is fighting the allegations and is taking steps to regain his party leadership.


https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/patrick-brown-denies-sexual-misconduct-allegations-from-two-women-resigns-as-ontario-pc-leader-1.3774686

http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/former-pc-leader-patrick-brown-files-notice-of-libel-against-ctv-news

http://www.macleans.ca/politics/the-phone-call-that-ended-patrick-browns-leadership/

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/patrick-brown-debacle-means-candidates-will-get-more-intense-screening-parties-say-1.4549278

When I was working at the physio clinic, I can't remember the number of times I was harassed there. The most hilarious one was when I went into some guy's cubicle to give him an ice pack, and he had his balls hanging out of his underwear. He asked me if I liked what I saw, and I simply said, "I work in a physiotherapy clinic, and I've seen it all. Body parts are body parts to me." I told my boss later and we kind of laughed about it. It didn't break me. She was glad about how I handled that awkward situation, and it made me sound extremely professional.

I'm not saying what he did was right, but I just moved on with my life. It didn't destroy me as a a woman. I worked at the clinic for a couple of years more, and got asked for my phone number, had one creepy dude stalk me, and yet, somehow, it still didn't break me. I handled it the best way I could, and it made me not only feel empowered, but I gained a lot of respect from my coworkers.

Quote
contemplativeintrovert
I care about;

Not being raped / sexually assaulted, women in general not being raped / sexually assaulted, stricter punishments for perpetrators of rape / sexual assault, equal pay, social equality {The misogynistic things I’ve heard ranges from ‘women should know their place,’ to ‘rape is natural,’ ‘rape happens for a reason,’ ‘and rape should be legal.’}

As a female I DON’T care about
People being friendly to children in general {I’m not because I don’t like them.}, lactating spaces, paid Moo leave {I’m anti population growth}, anything about the welfare of children,

Equating women’s issues with mothers issues delegitimizates women’s issues. Dismantling the patriarchy boils down to ‘having a dck doesn’t make you better, stop acting like it and stop harassing us,’ NOT ‘having a child makes you better, idolize children.’

Pretty much agree except I would say "people in general not being raped / sexually assaulted". Of course the victim is usually female, but I feel like male victims get discounted a lot already so I prefer a more inclusive term.

I do care about the welfare of children as well, but only in the same sense that I care about human welfare in general.

I also care very much about access to contraceptives, abortion, and sterilization. I think it is largely sexism that limits these things, when they are limited.

Quote

I think the "MeToo" movement started out with good intentions, but it's morphing into ridiculous bullshit. When I first heard about it, I thought that it would have the potential to make the public become "Judge, jury and executioner" of people who are unable to defend themselves. There's a Canadian politician, his name eludes me now, who wound up being accused and his career is now ruined. It turns out that the accusation was false.

Look at poor Al Franken run out of the Senate because he allegedly patted some chick on the fanny 10 years ago and did what was obviously a gag photo with another woman. It turned out that his main accuser works for Fox News. I lost a lot of respect for the democrats for falling for an obvious right wing hit job.

@Yurble,

I completely agree. I think I misspoke, it was an instance of not seeing the trees for the forest. Sorry, that was my bad.

I also agree that more should be done to make abortions and sterilizations safe, legal, affordable, and destigmatized. I remember reading that some of the users on here had their doctors try to convince them that they might “change their mind,” ridiculous. If someone is seeking sterilization, their mind is made up.

Lock him up or put him down.
Stolen from Shiny.

Quote
contemplativeintrovert
@Yurble,

I completely agree. I think I misspoke, it was an instance of not seeing the trees for the forest. Sorry, that was my bad.

I also agree that more should be done to make abortions and sterilizations safe, legal, affordable, and destigmatized. I remember reading that some of the users on here had their doctors try to convince them that they might “change their mind,” ridiculous. If someone is seeking sterilization, their mind is made up.

I assumed as much. Just because you only mentioned women doesn't mean you don't care about men, only that your thoughts weren't focused on them at the time. Only the most rabid man-hating caricature of a human being could think it is a good thing if men and boys are sexually assaulted.

Is there any woman on this board who has been sterilized who hasn't been told they might change their minds? I was thinking back on mine recently because a friend was asking for advice on how to pursue her own, and while the docs didn't try all that hard, they did try to claim I was young. While simultaneously pushing for a hormonal IUD because I'd need one soon anyway, to regulate menopause. So which is it, am I too young to end my fertility deliberately, or are my eggs rotten with age?

Quote
yurble
Is there any woman on this board who has been sterilized who hasn't been told they might change their minds? I was thinking back on mine recently because a friend was asking for advice on how to pursue her own, and while the docs didn't try all that hard, they did try to claim I was young. While simultaneously pushing for a hormonal IUD because I'd need one soon anyway, to regulate menopause. So which is it, am I too young to end my fertility deliberately, or are my eggs rotten with age?

I have had both a tubal and ablation.
Even though I went to a Catholic hospital, I got no hassles at all.
I was prepared for arguments and hassles.
My surgeon was the head of the department.

Quote
cassia

Quote
yurble
Is there any woman on this board who has been sterilized who hasn't been told they might change their minds? I was thinking back on mine recently because a friend was asking for advice on how to pursue her own, and while the docs didn't try all that hard, they did try to claim I was young. While simultaneously pushing for a hormonal IUD because I'd need one soon anyway, to regulate menopause. So which is it, am I too young to end my fertility deliberately, or are my eggs rotten with age?

I have had both a tubal and ablation.
Even though I went to a Catholic hospital, I got no hassles at all.
I was prepared for arguments and hassles.
My surgeon was the head of the department.

Ladies and gentleman, a childfree unicorn!

Quote
StudioFiftyFour
That article was nothing but SJW authoritarian nonsense. I'll break it down point by point, from my point of view, of course...

Quote
Article
Overcome your own transphobia. Trans women are women. Trans men are men. Accept the lived truth of NB and GNC people, whether or not they are women.

No they are not. People with penises are not women. People with vaginas are not men. Cutting body parts off or sewing artificial ones on doesn't change that fact. Neither does drugging oneself with steroids or hormones. When a person says what is true, that does not indicate that they have a phobia of some sort.

That being said, every person has every right to dress however they please, take whatever drugs they want, and partake in elective surgeries (at their own cost). And they should be treated with courtesy and decency. But they do not have the right to demand that the rest of us partake in their fantasies. Courtesy is a two-way street.

.

On this I must disagree with you. Tests on transmen and transwomen have shown that their brains are different from women and men. These tests showed that the brain actually decides if your female, or male. In a transman, you will see a male brain inside a female body. Transwomen have male brains. Your gender's between your ears.

The human gender and genitals are decided when a baby is an embryo. Sometimes, things zig when they should zag and gender can get a little tumbled, or a lot tumbled in babies who are born intersexed (born with male and female genitals).

+++++++++++++

Passive Aggressive
Master Of Anti-brat
Excuses!

I hate the idea of moos co-opting the metoo movement's efforts as much as I disliked when men tried to do it, too. You're all right that equating womanhood with motherhood demeans us.

(Yes, I know men get sexually assaulted, and it is equally terible. But this movement isn't/wasn't about men, yet there were some, insisting that women stand aside and let them be heard. In other words, just another Tuesday....)

Quote
craftyzits

On this I must disagree with you. Tests on transmen and transwomen have shown that their brains are different from women and men. These tests showed that the brain actually decides if your female, or male. In a transman, you will see a male brain inside a female body. Transwomen have male brains. Your gender's between your ears.

The human gender and genitals are decided when a baby is an embryo. Sometimes, things zig when they should zag and gender can get a little tumbled, or a lot tumbled in babies who are born intersexed (born with male and female genitals).

Let's assume you are correct. What you are stating is that whatever a person thinks is essentially, empirical truth. (This, in spite of every cell containing male or female DNA, specifically.)

My contention lies not within a person's belief structure, but in (some) people's insistence that society be turned upside-down to accommodate a belief structure that is empirically untrue. If a woman wants to dress like a man, or vice versa, or get hormone therapy, cosmetic surgery, whatever... I'm good with that. I think people need to pursue happiness as they see fit. The problem lies when anyone (of ANY sexual preference, gender, race, whatever....) insists that others must go along with and validate their beliefs.

There are people in society who believe that they are Santa Claus, important political figures, and celebrities. And yes, they truly believe this. The electrical impulses in their brains are telling them that this is true. Would you agree that their belief is empirically untrue? Would you argue that the rest of society should simply go along with it? If so... why?

And if a person can be (legally) transgendered... what about trans-racial? Trans-age? Trans-species? I'm not making the case that these examples should be permitted, but from an ethical and legal standpoint I can't see how you can have one legal standing (transgender) but not these others, particularly when the belief comes from within one's own consciousness, and not one's DNA.

Quote
kittehpeoples
I hate the idea of moos co-opting the metoo movement's efforts as much as I disliked when men tried to do it, too. You're all right that equating womanhood with motherhood demeans us.

(Yes, I know men get sexually assaulted, and it is equally terible. But this movement isn't/wasn't about men, yet there were some, insisting that women stand aside and let them be heard. In other words, just another Tuesday....)

I don't agree with you, at least in part. I want all people to be heard. Men and women alike. And the most important place we can hear people out is the judicial system, where we can bring charges against dangerous offenders and put them behind bars. Slandering alleged sexual offenders on social media isn't justice, it's a witch hunt and the burden of proof is nil. I'm skeptical of claims without evidence. I'm particularly skeptical when someone comes forth decades later with a #MeToo, when it seems to be a #ChangedMyMind sexual encounter.

The latest of this ridiculousness came yesterday when we heard from Monica Lewinsky, who, after 20 years of claiming that her affair with President Clinton was consensual, now claims that it was a "gross abuse of power." So after two decades of income from book deals, TV deals, and unearned fame dry up... now it's time to jump on the #MeToo bandwagon? How convenient.

The movement unfolded the same in Hollywood. After decades of being beloved among men and women in Hollywood, Harvey Weinstein was made into a pariah by the very people who profited from his influence.

Bottom line: If you want real justice in the real world where we can actually put dangerous offenders behind bars, I'm completely willing to listen. If you want Twitter-justice with online mobs and digital pitchforks, I believe the rest of us have every right to be highly skeptical of your claim, and your desire for attention. If your claim involves phrases like, "... drank too much/drugged too much (consensually)... don't remember what happened exactly... regret having (consensual) sex with this guy... the incident happened in the summer of '71...," you can't realistically expect to garner a whole lot of sympathy or understanding from the rest of us. Your account is too vague and/or it happened too long ago.

This mentality is not a whole lot different than the breastfeeders who claim they "just want to breastfeed" and have the media on speed-dial the second someone suggests that maybe, just maybe, they shouldn't be doing it while they're piling mashed potatoes onto their plates at the local smorgasbord. The desire for attention and unearned pseudo-fame far outweighs their desire for reason, rule of law, and due process.

Quote
StudioFiftyFour

Quote
craftyzits

On this I must disagree with you. Tests on transmen and transwomen have shown that their brains are different from women and men. These tests showed that the brain actually decides if your female, or male. In a transman, you will see a male brain inside a female body. Transwomen have male brains. Your gender's between your ears.

The human gender and genitals are decided when a baby is an embryo. Sometimes, things zig when they should zag and gender can get a little tumbled, or a lot tumbled in babies who are born intersexed (born with male and female genitals).

Let's assume you are correct. What you are stating is that whatever a person thinks is essentially, empirical truth. (This, in spite of every cell containing male or female DNA, specifically.)

My contention lies not within a person's belief structure, but in (some) people's insistence that society be turned upside-down to accommodate a belief structure that is empirically untrue. If a woman wants to dress like a man, or vice versa, or get hormone therapy, cosmetic surgery, whatever... I'm good with that. I think people need to pursue happiness as they see fit. The problem lies when anyone (of ANY sexual preference, gender, race, whatever....) insists that others must go along with and validate their beliefs.

There are people in society who believe that they are Santa Claus, important political figures, and celebrities. And yes, they truly believe this. The electrical impulses in their brains are telling them that this is true. Would you agree that their belief is empirically untrue? Would you argue that the rest of society should simply go along with it? If so... why?

And if a person can be (legally) transgendered... what about trans-racial? Trans-age? Trans-species? I'm not making the case that these examples should be permitted, but from an ethical and legal standpoint I can't see how you can have one legal standing (transgender) but not these others, particularly when the belief comes from within one's own consciousness, and not one's DNA.

The DNA of transpeople is different than your average man/woman because of an error made in the womb when they were tiny embryos.

Quote

There are people in society who believe that they are Santa Claus, important political figures, and celebrities. And yes, they truly believe this. The electrical impulses in their brains are telling them that this is true. Would you agree that their belief is empirically untrue? Would you argue that the rest of society should simply go along with it? If so... why?

This describes mental illness, another problem with the human brain.

Transpeople truely are the gender they feel they are even if they may have been born with a certain set of genitals. The reason why is they suffer from a birth defect that effects both DNA and brain. The mentally ill you describe don't have effects written within their DNA, WHEREVER THAT DNA IS. That DNA in their big toe says I am the gender opisite of what my genitals say I am.

People are born litterally with genital evidence of such mistakes, they can have both vagina and micropenis for example. My theory is that being trans is a form of Intersex, a zig when a zag was needed. Blood tests of Transpeople have shown that their hormones reflected were in fact their chosen gender.

+++++++++++++

Passive Aggressive
Master Of Anti-brat
Excuses!

I see it both ways. No, we can’t arrest people or take legal action against people based on allegations alone. But on the other hand, I resent the allegations by some I’ve spoken to that assumes, by default, that the women are always lying. My dad, raving misogynist that he is, said that “women should stop laying on their backs to get ahead and then claiming they were raped.” Nice guy, is it any wonder I moved out at 19? This belief system grates on me for two reasons. First, as an asexual person, and as a female, I find it repulsive that so little is thought of women {I know not all people believe this} that it is assumed that the default is women putting themselves out. It is absolutely repulsive that people exist that seem to think women exist for nothing but sex. It not only promotes heteronormativity {Within the scope of the #metoo movement, I have not heard of women assaulted by lesbians, gays, or asexuals}, but it also ignores the fact that women have actual abilities and talents, and that just maybe they earned their place, but were assaulted anyway.
I also don’t like that so much hair splitting is going on. If someone gets you drunk or drugs you, and sleeps with you, that’s still rape. I also dislike the implication that all of this is just regret. Is it not possible that some of these people were actually assaulted? Finally, interpersonal relationships are complex. Supervisor x subordinate, 19 year old x 16 year old, and teacher x student relationships are, rightly, frowned upon because they come from a place of inequality. While any of these intimate relationships isn’t ALWAYS rape, there is an implicit level of coercion there, because the decision to be in the relationship isn’t being made from a stance of equality. Finally, the whole disagreement bothers me because it places the guilt on the women. Why is it easier for society to say “the woman is PROBABLY lying,” than to say “the man MIGHT be a sleaze?” Maybe my perspective is because I am asexual, but personally I wouldn’t lie about something like that.

Lock him up or put him down.
Stolen from Shiny.

Quote
contemplative introvert
No, we can’t arrest people or take legal action against people based on allegations alone. But on the other hand, I resent the allegations by some I’ve spoken to that assumes, by default, that the women are always lying. My dad, raving misogynist that he is, said that “women should stop laying on their backs to get ahead and then claiming they were raped.” Nice guy, is it any wonder I moved out at 19? This belief system grates on me for two reasons. First, as an asexual person, and as a female, I find it repulsive that so little is thought of women {I know not all people believe this} that it is assumed that the default is women putting themselves out.

I wouldn't describe what is essentially prostitution as being the default, nor would I describe it as being more rare than a four-leaf clover. Your Dad sounds like a dick, but is his statement false in terms of what happened in Hollywood? The celebretards can't have it both ways. They can't fuck Harvey Weinstein in order to profit financially from his movies, then turn around years later after they've earned $millions and claim that they are victims. It doesn't work that way. I'm all for blowing the whistle on bad behavior... but you can't take the $$$ first and then blow the whistle. That's being a hypocrite.

Quote
contemplativeintrovert
It is absolutely repulsive that people exist that seem to think women exist for nothing but sex. It not only promotes heteronormativity {Within the scope of the #metoo movement, I have not heard of women assaulted by lesbians, gays, or asexuals}, but it also ignores the fact that women have actual abilities and talents, and that just maybe they earned their place, but were assaulted anyway.

Some women do have abilities and talents, the same as men. And if actual perpetrators of sexual assault exist, I encourage them to bring charges against these guys because if they are a danger to society they belong behind bars. Hashtagging and Tweeting at them doesn't accomplish this and puts more people at risk for further victimization.

Quote
contemplativeintrovert
I also don’t like that so much hair splitting is going on. If someone gets you drunk or drugs you, and sleeps with you, that’s still rape. I also dislike the implication that all of this is just regret. Is it not possible that some of these people were actually assaulted?

I'm going to write in terms of ethics, not exclusively law. Anyone drugging another person without their knowledge or consent needs to be locked up. However, can anyone really "get you drunk?" Short of pouring alcohol down someone's throat against their will, I don't buy the argument that others are at fault for one's own consumption. If that were the case, the state would never win a DUI case. Every defendant could plead not guilty by means of the bartender getting them drunk, their friends getting them drunk, etc. You are responsible for your own actions. That's called being an adult. Getting intoxicated, to the point of blacking out, is irresponsible behavior and you should expect negative consequences as a result. That does not absolve the perpetrator of sexual assault, but it does bring into question your judgment as a person.

Hypothetically, if I left my car running and the door unlocked, in public, I should expect that car to be stolen, eventually. That doesn't mean that the car thief is innocent... but it does call into question my own judgment.

And in the case of Monica Lewinsky, who bragged for two decades about consensual sex with the POTUS, and now claims it was a "gross abuse of power," sorry I'm not buying it. That's regret and trying to cash in on a current societal trend... it is not rape. That's a person who has had a clear profit motive in mind since 1998.

Quote
contemplativeintrovert
Finally, interpersonal relationships are complex. Supervisor x subordinate, 19 year old x 16 year old, and teacher x student relationships are, rightly, frowned upon because they come from a place of inequality. While any of these intimate relationships isn’t ALWAYS rape, there is an implicit level of coercion there, because the decision to be in the relationship isn’t being made from a stance of equality. Finally, the whole disagreement bothers me because it places the guilt on the women. Why is it easier for society to say “the woman is PROBABLY lying,” than to say “the man MIGHT be a sleaze?” Maybe my perspective is because I am asexual, but personally I wouldn’t lie about something like that.

Who is to say you wouldn't lie? Or I wouldn't lie? I'm not gay but what if I wanted to file a false sexual harassment charge against a gay colleague who I didn't like? Human beings are fallible. And they lie. And they cheat. And they do unethical things for money. Asexual/Bisexual/Straight/Gay/Transgender/Christian/Jewish/Mormon/White/Black/Etc.... you name the demographic, all are capable of lying. And the best way to get to the truth is to keep an open mind AND a skeptical outlook. Examine all parties and then cross examine them, and follow the preponderance of the evidence.

I only oppose relationships that are unethical (workplace sexual harassment) or illicit (one party below age of consent). Other than that, everything else is game. I believe people should associate, date, fuck whomever they want and for whatever reasons they want. Whether the other person offers sexual pleasure, a pleasant evening, money, fame, a fancy car... whatever reason is fine as long as everyone is consenting and no one is being forced to do anything they don't want to do.

As an asexual I believe you have the same rights--the most pertinent one being the right to refuse friendship, dates, sex, affection, whatever. And you should never be harassed at work, same as everyone else.

I am going to have to agree with Disco Stu here. When I was 15, I tried to report the sexual assault to the police.. Unfortunately, my mother forced me to retract my statement or she would beat me. I retracted my statement, and I STILL got punished for it. The officer did believe me, because he watched my body language, facial cues and heard my story.

Years later when I was an adult, I gave another statement to the police. Because of time and the fact that I retracted my original statement, the Crown decided not to prosecute.

My BIL is still out there and has victimized many girls, boys and women. He is not registered as a sex offender.

OTOH, my best friend, a guy I grew up with, had his long-lost cousin stay with him and his mother at their house. She falsely accused my friend of touching her inappropriately. She got thrown out of the house and never invited back. It turns out that this young girl, in and out of foster homes, had a history of reporting almost every male she had contact with to the police for exactly the same thing. The case was dropped.

Women, men and children all have the ability to lie. I honestly don't know who is telling the truth or lying on the internet anymore.

What proof do I have to back up my case? I have a police report which has a file number. I honestly don't know why some of these women didn't go to the police as soon as this happened. I didn't go because I was just a little girl, and my mother said it was my fault that I was assaulted. That led to years of shame and confusion to me.

Quote
StudioFiftyFour

Who is to say you wouldn't lie? Or I wouldn't lie? I'm not gay but what if I wanted to file a false sexual harassment charge against a gay colleague who I didn't like? Human beings are fallible. And they lie. And they cheat. And they do unethical things for money. Asexual/Bisexual/Straight/Gay/Transgender/Christian/Jewish/Mormon/White/Black/Etc.... you name the demographic, all are capable of lying. And the best way to get to the truth is to keep an open mind AND a skeptical outlook. Examine all parties and then cross examine them, and follow the preponderance of the evidence.

As an asexual I believe you have the same rights--the most pertinent one being the right to refuse friendship, dates, sex, affection, whatever. And you should never be harassed at work, same as everyone else.

Well, I wouldn’t lie about that because being assaulted would make me feel disgusted. I’m not saying asexuals in general, or even myself in particular, never lie. I try not to lie, for instance when SIL asked why I was mad at her I told her in no uncertain terms, even though it made my brother basically disown me for over a year. Now, I’m just as fallible as anyone else, but I wouldn’t lie about this, because being assaulted isn’t an idea I would conceive in my head to lie about, it disgusts me so much.

Also, I can’t speak for everyone, but in my experience people typically lie in ways that make them sound better than they are, not worse. People lie about getting good baseball scores, or being popular with the opposite sex, or they lie about donating to charity. I guess my question is, why would these women be lying? I don’t believe they are because I see no motivation for them to. I’m not saying people are infallible or never lie, I’m just saying when people do lie it’s usually for a reason, and not about* certain things .

Lock him up or put him down.
Stolen from Shiny.

Quote

They can't fuck Harvey Weinstein in order to profit financially from his movies, then turn around years later after they've earned $millions and claim that they are victims. It doesn't work that way. I'm all for blowing the whistle on bad behavior... but you can't take the $$$ first and then blow the whistle. That's being a hypocrite.

Ronan Farrow wrote an excellent series of articles in New Yorker magazine (you can sign up for free as long as you cancel) about the Harvey Machine. I get sick of hearing (not necessarily you, Stu) people say, "why didn't these women speak up? They went along with it and enriched their careers." Some women didn't speak up, although nobody wants to admit it, and there were probably some women who went along with it to get into a couple of movies and establish themselves, and then felt they had enough career clout to say no. I think there was a percentage of women who went along with it because quite simply it was the price of being famous. Not right by any means, and the pervert who set it up is truly evil, and he's the one who should be blamed. ESPECIALLY since speaking out or refusing was swiftly punished. Look at Courtney Love, who dared to make one semi-joking but true remark about Weinstein and was banned from the CAA for life, because how dare anyone say anything against politically connected, Saint Harvey. (I personally wonder about Meryl Streep, Jessica Chastain and Jennifer Lawrence, who all seem a little too silent, but I digress.)

Oh, and when Farrow tried to get the articles published when he worked for NBC, NBC killed the story. So he went elsewhere. Harvey had a lot of power and he still does.

But the bottom line is that many women did refuse his advances and they paid for it with their careers. Rosanna Arquette, Daryl Hannah, Mira Sorvino, Uma Thurman, quite a few others. According to one of the New Yorker articles, Daryl Hannah went on a junket with HW and others to Switzerland and other places, and he was such an obnoxious, entitled pig that he started banging on her hotel door when she wouldn't open it for him. She exited out the sliding glass door of her room and spent the night in the room of a makeup artist, just to get away from him and get a good night's sleep. The next day, HW moved up the departure time (they were in a jet that he chartered for a group of people) and he left Daryl Hannah at the hotel and didn't include her in rest of the trip as punishment. Farrow verified this story with the makeup artist. There are countless of stories of him acting like an obnoxious entitled pig, his assistants supplying him with Viagra and women, him arranging "business meetings," with young starlets where he would show up naked, etc.

The article is required reading simply because it removes ignorance. For example, a common tactic when you have money and are sleazy is to retain private investigators with law firms acting as the intermediary. "Attorney client privilege" is protected by law, so the real motive is untraceable.

Anyway, when Rose McGowan started speaking up, allegedly, investigators who were being indirectly paid by HW interviewed McGowan under false pretenses, acted as if they were representatives from a conference for women, and then took everything she said right back to HW.

Harvey allegedly spent a lot of money to keep his exploitation going and he spent a lot of money to intimidate people who dared to speak up.

Quote
contemplativeintrovert
Well, I wouldn’t lie about that because being assaulted would make me feel disgusted. I’m not saying asexuals in general, or even myself in particular, never lie. I try not to lie, for instance when SIL asked why I was mad at her I told her in no uncertain terms, even though it made my brother basically disown me for over a year. Now, I’m just as fallible as anyone else, but I wouldn’t lie about this, because being assaulted isn’t an idea I would conceive in my head to lie about, it disgusts me so much.

OK, so you say you wouldn't lie... so what? The burden of proof in the real world is (thank God) a standard that supersedes someone simply giving their word that they wouldn't lie. Don't take this as a criticism of you--I feel the same of all human beings, including myself. Making a claim that could result in putting someone in prison for a period of years is quite serious and requires supporting evidence. We don't simply believe people because they tell us to. And it goes both ways... if I make a claim and can't provide supporting evidence, you should be skeptical of that claim.

It's not that I don't believe you, completeintrovert. I tend to doubt human beings when they make claims. Let's see the evidence. If they can't provide the evidence... why should I believe it? I have no independent access to the event being described.

Quote
contemplativeintrovert
Also, I can’t speak for everyone, but in my experience people typically lie in ways that make them sound better than they are, not worse. People lie about getting good baseball scores, or being popular with the opposite sex, or they lie about donating to charity. I guess my question is, why would these women be lying? I don’t believe they are because I see no motivation for them to. I’m not saying people are infallible or never lie, I’m just saying when people do lie it’s usually for a reason, and not about* certain things .

People lie for those reasons, yes, but they lie for all kinds of other reasons, too. People lie for money. They lie for power. They lie for fame. And they lie for attention. Is every #MeToo a cry for attention? No. Legitimate sexual assault does happen. But it's safe to say that some of these cases are fabrications or exaggerations, particularly when they've happened decades ago, and involve consensual/mutual intoxication. And if you truly regret having sex with that ugly/stupid/poor slob... a #MeToo accusation can be attempted to restore your online street cred! Victimhood is in. It's en vogue. Heck, identity politics and faux victim-hood has driven politics for the past 15 years!

Quote
bell_flower
I get sick of hearing (not necessarily you, Stu) people say, "why didn't these women speak up? They went along with it and enriched their careers." Some women didn't speak up, although nobody wants to admit it, and there were probably some women who went along with it to get into a couple of movies and establish themselves, and then felt they had enough career clout to say no. I think there was a percentage of women who went along with it because quite simply it was the price of being famous. Not right by any means, and the pervert who set it up is truly evil, and he's the one who should be blamed. ESPECIALLY since speaking out or refusing was swiftly punished. Look at Courtney Love, who dared to make one semi-joking but true remark about Weinstein and was banned from the CAA for life, because how dare anyone say anything against politically connected, Saint Harvey. (I personally wonder about Meryl Streep, Jessica Chastain and Jennifer Lawrence, who all seem a little too silent, but I digress.)

All of those women, and Oprah Winfrey too, GUSHED about Harvey Weinstein for years! They spoke extremely highly of him and bragged about how they were such good friends with this man.

And yet when the shit hit the fan, nobody knew about Harvey sexually exploiting anyone. Everyone acted outraged and dumbfounded. They all had "no idea" that this stuff was going on. Even though in years prior they spoke about how their friendship with this man was so deep and profound.

And they're serious. They really expect everyone to believe that.

But you know and I know its all bullshit. Everyone knew what was happening. And they knew how to use Harvey Weinstein for profit. And he provided those profits. And all was good in Hollywood until it became trendy to be opposed to such an arrangement.

The women you mention should be embarrassed and ashamed for their role in this mess--particularly the veteran stars like Meryl Streep. If she had an ounce of class she'd donate any and all of her earnings from anything connected with Weinstein to some sort of charity for actual victims of sexual assault.

Quote
bell_flower
There are countless of stories of him acting like an obnoxious entitled pig, his assistants supplying him with Viagra and women, him arranging "business meetings," with young starlets where he would show up naked, etc.

Yep... but hey, "nobody in Hollywood knew any of this was happening!"