Wanna stay friends with childed people? Be their babysitter/cook/housekeeper or you're a bad friend!

Some stellar advice from Carolyn Hack about the dwindling friendship between a moo and a career woman.

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Dear Carolyn:

My best friend, "Gail," and I have grown apart the past few years. It's no one's fault, we just don't have anything in common anymore. She's a stay-at-home mom with two kids under 4, and is busy with all of the things that come with that. I'm single, dating a couple of guys casually, very busy and engaged with my career.

Five years ago we couldn't be separated, we worked in the same building, roomed together and socialized together. These days, we might catch up a few times a year. We really try to get together but even picking a night when we're both free to go to a movie is a nightmare, but we managed one last weekend.

At dinner, Gail broke down crying saying that I don't care about her, don't make time for her anymore, never go to their house.

It's true, but their house is kind of messy and chaotic, and with the kids and husband around we can't really talk, so what's the point? I feel bad that Gail is hurt and lonely, but I was blindsided by this. I thought she was happy with her kids and her husband, who is a genuinely nice guy.

Since we're in our 20s none of our other friends are even married, let alone have kids. I thought about suggesting Gail find a "mommy group" or something, but that makes it sound like I don't want to be her friend anymore and I'm blowing her off. Her family lives on the opposite coast so her local support group is pretty thin. What can I do?

-- Friend

You can start acting like a friend of substance, or you can admit to yourself -- and Gail -- that you were only a friend of convenience.

Before I explain, a pre-emptive clarification: I'm actually not judging here (much) because it's normal and necessary for some friendships to be deeper than others. The deeper ones yield the most, but also demand the bigger investment from us in time, attention, and sometimes discomfort, so it's OK that not every friend we have gets everything we've got.

What's not OK is to declare someone your "best" friend in the same breath that you admit you stay away because her kids annoy you and her house is a mess.

That's everything but an open admission that you care more about Gail's circumstances than you care about Gail herself.

Which, again, is fine if you're just a party pal -- but Gail seems to think you're her best friend, too, so she's expecting you to be more drawn to her than you are repelled by her floor Cheerios.

Gail's circumstances, by the way, are pretty typical for households with small kids. And no, it's not fun for parents, either, to have more housework than energy and more commitments than privacy. Gails can be happy about their choices and steadfast in their devotion to a "genuinely nice guy" and their kids and still be howling from their souls for a break.

Are you willing to be hers? She thought so, and you weren't, so now she's asking you directly instead of signing on to your "it's no one's fault" theory of drift, which only works when it's not patently self-serving.

As long as your attitude toward visits is "What's the point?" then you are indeed only an acquaintance of Gail's, now, not a friend -- which again I don't judge as long as she knows this so she can go "find a 'mommy group' or something." A suggestion I would have judged if you hadn't caught yourself before making it. Because, wow.

If instead you can -- if you want to -- find purpose in these visits beyond what's in them for your amusement, then you can be her friend. Some of these purposes being: to keep her company as she does her mom thing; bring dinner or help out in other ways; understand what her life is like so you can remain close; get to know her husband as a potential friend in his own right; get to know her kids so you can become Auntie Friend to them as they grow older and more interesting; slog through her tough time just as she would through yours (be it kids of your own someday or something else entirely); and even just logging in a good faith effort to appear on her turf, to validate any effort she then makes to appear on yours.

Kids suck parents in and push non-parents away. They test both sides of a friendship. You close your letter by asking, "What can I do?" -- and that's the first question on your test. Is it just a rhetorical shrug, or are you sincerely open to change?

Why is always the non-childed person that has to put in all the effort? Why can't the husband watch the little horrors for a day/evening so moo can meet up with her friend more often? I don't give a shit how hard it is to be a parent, they fucking signed up for it, I would not sink to their level and be their skivvy just for a chance to hang out with them - no matter how important they think they are.

This is such bullshit. Every friend couple DH and I have had that has had kids has gone AWOL for years once the babies started arriving. When we did try to get together, it always was on their terms. And God forbid they find a fecking babysitter. One of the many problems with so many younger parents today is they do not comprehend the meaning of "adult time." When I was a kid, my parents threw lots of parties in their finished basement. We were not allowed down there, period. They would get a babysitter and stash us all upstairs. Thankfully, I have a few mommy women friends who get this and make time for self care (girls nights, dinner, interests in other things than kids), which does not involve being a mommy.

I don't understand is how someone can be a "stay-at-home parent" and have a filthy house. One of my friends stayed at home while his wife worked. The house was tidy. Then she lost her job, so he went to work and she stayed home. The house became filthy. That demonstrated to me that as long as both parents aren't working, it is a choice to have a dirty house. The sheer laziness that causes many breeders to want to give up working once they reproduce leads to the same low standards at home.

There are only two circumstances where I'm willing to go to a friend's house and clean it up. Situation one is if I'm staying there, and I want to do something helpful as a guest. Situation two is if the person is ill or injured. Friendship is not about enabling someone's laziness.

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get to know her kids so you can become Auntie Friend to them as they grow older and more interesting

So even Carolyn admits that kids are boring and tedious to be around.

Friendship is a two way street. While it is possible to remain friends with people whose circumstances are now wildly different, as in two kids SAHM vs. no kids career person, it requires both parties put forth an honest effort. Earlier comments about parents today believing that Every. Single. Activity. they do must also include the kids are absolutely correct. As someone who has tried propping up a friendship and, against my better judgement, also tried including their kids, my experience was that it was a complete waste of time. The kids had to always be the center of attention, constantly interrupted, couldn't leave anything alone, and were tirelessly needy. Truth is, I have nothing in common with kids who can't carry on a conversation, and I don't find misbehavior to be cute. So if someone is exhausted by their kids and won't put forth any effort to find a sitter so we can enjoy a meal or activity without constant interruption and distraction, then the friendship is over.

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yurble
I don't understand is how someone can be a "stay-at-home parent" and have a filthy house. One of my friends stayed at home while his wife worked. The house was tidy. Then she lost her job, so he went to work and she stayed home. The house became filthy. That demonstrated to me that as long as both parents aren't working, it is a choice to have a dirty house. The sheer laziness that causes many breeders to want to give up working once they reproduce leads to the same low standards at home.

There are only two circumstances where I'm willing to go to a friend's house and clean it up. Situation one is if I'm staying there, and I want to do something helpful as a guest. Situation two is if the person is ill or injured. Friendship is not about enabling someone's laziness.

Im getting surgery next month, even then i realize my friends and family have lives of their own, im hiring a caregiver to be with me the 1st week. My entitlement is zero

Oh, and, these are the same people who will also tell you, "hey, the kids are in college now, we can do things again!" as if I waited patiently on the sidelines twiddling my thumbs while you did The Most Important Job in the World^tm until you could spare one evening in over a decade to meet for dinner...really? And you could regale me with endless stories of your kids and how you can't wait for grandchildren, so you can be overinvolved in their lives too? Yeah, no.

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Posted by Carolyn Hack
...get to know her kids so you can become Auntie Friend to them as they grow older and more interesting; slog through her tough time just as she would through yours (be it kids of your own someday or something else entirely); and even just logging in a good faith effort to appear on her turf, to validate any effort she then makes to appear on yours.

This really chaps my hide. "Auntie Friend"? So if a woman doesn't have kids she's obligated to either have her own at the earliest possible moment or, as the very least she can do to be worthy of existence, she should devote attention to family or friends' kids.

And who says this childed friend would give the letter writer the kind of support she wants the letter writer to give her? I'll bet if the letter writer genuinely needed help of any kind, the childed friend would say, "I can't, I have kyyyyyyyyds!"

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yurble
One of my friends stayed at home while his wife worked. The house was tidy. Then she lost her job, so he went to work and she stayed home. The house became filthy.

I was made redundant in January and because of mental ill health I'm struggling to find a new job; luckily my husband is incredibly understanding about the whole situation. In the meantime I'm keeping the house clean and tidy so I feel like I'm contributing.

How any able-bodied person can sit around the house doing nothing when someone else is "bringing home the bacon" is beyond me. Having kids is no excuse, especially when you can stick them in front of Uncle TV for a bit - not an ideal solution but you'd get at least and hour and a half if you stick a Disney film on.

I'm also in almost the same situation, my friends are at that age when they start having kids and unfortunately they kind of shove you aside. I tried to keep contact with some of them and i wrote here about one who needed help with school projects but whenever i tried to help, she was attacking me that she doesn't have time because she has a kid and i cannot possibly understand that. What she really wanted, as i later found out, was me doing her projects for free. No thanks. She invited me few times over but every time ended up in persuading me to have kids and insulting me for not having kids while at the same time bitching about how hard her life is.

With another friend i did keep contact but i'm the one who has to come over and actually help with the kid. I didn't mind that but sometimes she also spills the "you can't possibly understand because you don't have kids" and making it sound like i have the easiest life ever.

I'm trying to be patient and understanding but it's so hard when they know that i'm in lots of difficulties and my life has been nothing but easy during the last two years. I managed to find a temporary full-time job on a project but i had to move to another town for the job. DH needed to remain home to take care of his old and disabled grandparents and his mom who has dementia. He is also working full-time btw. I go to help almost every weekend, basically i don't have a weekend anymore. Plus endometriosis makes my life unbearable sometimes. The last thing i needed right now is kids.

There is so much YES in this thread I could quote the entire thing.

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This is such bullshit. Every friend couple DH and I have had that has had kids has gone AWOL for years once the babies started arriving. When we did try to get together, it always was on their terms. And God forbid they find a fecking babysitter. One of the many problems with so many younger parents today is they do not comprehend the meaning of "adult time." When I was a kid, my parents threw lots of parties in their finished basement. We were not allowed down there, period. They would get a babysitter and stash us all upstairs. Thankfully, I have a few mommy women friends who get this and make time for self care (girls nights, dinner, interests in other things than kids), which does not involve being a mommy.

I grew up in the 60's and 70's and I have similar memories. My parents had a social life that didn't involve children. Every other weekend they would be at this particular friends' house and I would play with their kids in the attic. Now every party must involve children and when you are Moo and want to do something for yourself, the Mommy Brigade will shout you down. I guess we could call it the Parent Brigade because I see this happening to a lesser degree with men.

About 20 years ago I was friends with someone at work. She was SO SMART and funny as hell. She also had a kid. Because I cared about her, I made an effort for 4-5 years. But as her kid got older, it just became unmanageable because she was never without her kid for a single minute. She lived in a half a million dollar house, which was littered with kid crap. She would not allow her child to sleep or play on the other side of the house for "safety reasons." (If you are that worried, get an alarm system.) The kid slept in her bed until she was about 10. Hell, NOBODY could be alone with her. She fought with her husband because although both sets of parents were in town, she refused to leave the kid for one minute with the grandparents and go on a trip with him. When the kid slept in the master bedroom with Mommy, Duhdie slept in the den in front of the TV. It was all kinds of fucked up, and he finally left her when the kid was about 9.

When I would go over there, I couldn't have a conversation with her. The kid interrupted constantly. Here's an example of how bad it was: one of her family members, who had kids, had one of those pampered chef parties. Friend had dragged the kid to a previous party and the kid had interrupted and was disruptive. (I heard this from a mutual friend.) The next invite pointedly read, "let's leave the kids at home and have some girl time!" (The host arranged to have her kids elsewhere.) It caused a family row and I remember my now-ex friend whining that "Princess Bratleigh is my constant companion. I don't go anywhere without her!" Yes, we know. Eventually she did go to the party sans brat, but she LIED to the kid and said she had to go to work or something. She couldn't even tell her brat that she was having girl time. It's baffling to see someone so smart and otherwise with-it to allow Mommyhood to tank her entire identity and to have no spine.

Carolyn Hax is obviously a biased Breeder brain. If you care about someone you will try to preserve the friendship, but no healthy person is going to stick around forever and keep throwing money/time/affection down a black hole when there is no reciprocity. And that's usually the case with Mommies. And don't even get me started on the sanctimonious ones who think you can't possibly be as busy/scheduled/important because you don't have brats.

I have some friends who were parents. I understood that during the first few years they were really busy with the parenting thing, and they understood I had no interest in kids, so we took a hiatus. None of them ever based their identity on parenthood, so after a few years when they had more time and could leave the kids, we picked things up again. (This was after the baby/toddler phase, not 18+ years like the people Tiquer described).

I don't think there was any animosity on either side because we understood one another. My long-term friends and I have always had the sort of friendships that vary in intensity due to proximity and obligations, yet I don't consider the friendships superficial because we can talk about any topic and give what emotional support we can. I know I could call any of them up, anytime, and if I was having a rough time they'd set anything else aside to listen - and I'd do the same. The ebb and flow is a normal part of introvert friendships to me, especially as we are all fairly mobile people, living in different countries.

I also form friendships with people who live nearby, and we help each other out. For instance I would never hesitate to bring someone food in the hospital or to do laundry for someone with a broken arm, etc, even if that person was more of an acquaintance. And people have stepped in to do similar things for me. I suppose it's because nobody abuses the friendship by asking when there isn't genuine need. I'd drop someone like the person Blackpearl & the letter-writer described, as soon as I figured them out. Generally, if there's children involved and no severe illnesses, it's probably entitlement.

Keep her company as she does her mom thing?!? Great idea! I think I’ll invite friends over to watch me do my spinster thing. You just stand there and act interested while I scoop a litter box and fold laundry. Anyone who does not accept my invitation is just a convenient friend and not a real friend.

I learned a long time ago that you cannot have an interesting conversation if a child is in the room, so what’s the point? And I don’t need to see anyone do their mom thing, because they document every second of their lives on social media.

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happyhiker
Keep her company as she does her mom thing?!? Great idea! I think I’ll invite friends over to watch me do my spinster thing. You just stand there and act interested while I scoop a litter box and fold laundry. Anyone who does not accept my invitation is just a convenient friend and not a real friend.

I learned a long time ago that you cannot have an interesting conversation if a child is in the room, so what’s the point? And I don’t need to see anyone do their mom thing, because they document every second of their lives on social media.

What fun we shall all have, watching our friends do their chores, and having an audience while we do our own. I'm thinking of monetizing my chores by doing them on Twitch for people who don't have the opportunity to watch anyone more local do chores.

Let me see if I got this right. Gail is upset because SHE decided to get married and sluice, and now she has no social life because the rest of her friends have decided to wait and not jump off the bridge like she did. How is this her friend's problem or fault? Unless she was an unwilling participant in the whole thing, she is responsible for what she's done to herself. Using guilt against her friend isn't going to make things better.

I wouldn't want to guilt anyone into hanging out with me. I would feel like they really don't want to be around, but feel like they have to in order to appease me. That's not friendship.

Also, Hack is forgetting something. The career girl probably has precious little time to herself. Why would she want to spend that in a filthy house with annoying brats? That's not the way I would want to spend my free time. Not only that, but the one time they manage to get together, this woman ruins it with her childish temper tantrum. I wouldn't want to deal with that. I'd probably tell her to find a moo group to hang out with.

Situations and lives change. I have lost many friends to the baby rabies. Once they sluiced, they didn't want to see me unless it was for free babysitting, or they are pressuring me to have a kid myself. Who the Hell needs that crap in their lives?

I just want to add that ITA with the filthy house situation. My mother had three kids and was a single working mother. Her home was always clean. She actually managed to raise three kids, work, and keep a clean house without the fathers being around at all. There is no excuse for breeders filthy homes.

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mumofsixbirds
Also, Hack is forgetting something. The career girl probably has precious little time to herself...

This ^

Career girl says herself that she's very busy and engaged with her career. She also says "...We really try to get together but even picking a night when we're both free to go to a movie is a nightmare..." and to me that's what happens when BOTH parties are busy in life, so moo isn't the only one with precious little free time.

But as usual, it's the non-moo who has to do all the leg work and put all the effort into keeping this one-sided friendship going. Because no matter how busy career girl is, there's no way she's busier than the young moo /eyeroll.

Breeders just LOVE to hold the monopoly on everything from busyness to pain to tiredness.

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Tiquer
Friendship is a two way street. While it is possible to remain friends with people whose circumstances are now wildly different, as in two kids SAHM vs. no kids career person, it requires both parties put forth an honest effort. Earlier comments about parents today believing that Every. Single. Activity. they do must also include the kids are absolutely correct. As someone who has tried propping up a friendship and, against my better judgement, also tried including their kids, my experience was that it was a complete waste of time. The kids had to always be the center of attention, constantly interrupted, couldn't leave anything alone, and were tirelessly needy. Truth is, I have nothing in common with kids who can't carry on a conversation, and I don't find misbehavior to be cute. So if someone is exhausted by their kids and won't put forth any effort to find a sitter so we can enjoy a meal or activity without constant interruption and distraction, then the friendship is over.

I agree completely. Had a "friend" who never disciplined her children or set boundaries. It was a lesson learned in my twenties. When we first became friends it wasn't too obvious because I would mostly see her when her ex had them for the weekend and since she had the free time away she was fun to be around and a good friend for the time being. I should have known that when she made a really big deal about her ex's height (6'5") rather than his character and personality that things were doomed from the start. She had made a bad decision with him and was engaged her freshman year in college and they were on the verge of divorce by the time they were graduating college. But when we were in our 20's many of us bad decisions about dating partners and friends because we were young and inexperienced.

About 3 years later she moved out of state and things drastically changed. The older the kids became, the worse it was to be around them. She also started making nasty comments about my single hood status, which was mostly due to me working all the time and not having time/energy/money for dating. Oh, and about me not having kids while being single (duh) and my biological clock is ticking because my egg bearing days are numbered as a 20-something (I wished but no, the egg factory is still pumping well past my 20's). She also knew for our entire friendship that I was child free because I was much more straightforward about it in my teens/20's. I knew that she was probably bringing this up because her life wasn't going very well and decided to be patient with her. It was probably more about her jumping her own biological clock because she became pregnant at 20 and there I was in my mid-twenties with no sign of a brat in my future. I'd come over to visit her happy and leave a few hours later frustrated and exhausted because her kids were annoying and it was very hard to have a simple conversation. I purposely started limiting our time together to once a month at this point. Besides, 1 year after a move her house was filled with unpacked boxes and containers everywhere and piles of clothing and junk all over the place. Absolutely cluttered in all rooms.

One day she invited me out to dinner, just her and I. Turns out she wanted A LOAN and this was the first time in 5 years her kids weren't around. See, despite the fact that she had a bachelor's degree and an ex who always paid child support she had decided in there somewhere she deserved all the luxuries of life at someone else's expense. She would beg and borrow money from anyone/any where. She complained to me about how she was too tired after working part time to make dinner so she would put fast food on a credit card 4 or more times a week. I offered to watch her kids while she went to the grocery store or to go to the store for her so she would have groceries in her home and not have to pay for fast food. Or, she didn't feel like working for the entire week and no good assignments were available. She was a substitute teacher. She would get her hair and nails done and also her kid daughter's nails/hair done even though she couldn't pay RENT. I didn't realize at the time that being helpful and patient with her wasn't what she wanted, she wanted cash and pity.

And even though she knew she wouldn't be working in the summertime she would wage massive fights trying to get unemployment benefits and others to pay for her summers off. Of course, the people at the church she attended and others felt so sorry for the poor single mahm and would give her food, handouts, buy Christmas for her kids every year. And someone once gave her a old SUV and a full-time job at their business and she complained bitterly (to me) about everything that was wrong with it. I told her it was free, clean and better than walking. And she didn't work full time at the place for more than a couple of weeks before she was down to part time hours. And this job was a lead to management with a good salary and good flexible mahm hours with the owners being her friends.

She stopped returning any of my phone calls once she became engaged. Her meal ticket (an engineer with steady employment) had previously broke off the engagement because both him and his parents thought her children were out of control and lacked boundaries. She cried and wailed on and on about losing her meal ticket (this was the last time I saw her) and I think she begged and pleaded until she broke him down and they were suddenly engaged again. After several months of her being engaged and not returning my calls I wrote her off and reflecting back realized our friendship had died once she moved and dubbed her "welfare queen" based on her behavior for the last few years. I was done with the abuse and making efforts to be a friend and a comfort to her when she treated me badly. So I deleted her sudden, persistent and timely messages begging me to take photos at the wedding in a week (for which I never received an invite).

That Hax woman is a nightmare! I read one of her articles recently where she encouraged a woman who knew her in-laws and their children had bedbugs to visit. She pooh-poohed the gals concerns, and said it was all a matter of laundry. And this was also after the woman mentioned, she had to deal with past insect infestations from the same individuals. Like fleas. All because the little brats would be "disappointed" they couldnt visit. I was like "uh what"! I almost wrote in blasting Hack, asking how she'd like her designer home, which I'm sure she has. To be infested to the nines so bad, she might have to burn it down. I don't think that would sit well, ya know.

To top it all off, the poor woman's brother I believe just shows up on her doorstep when he wants in. He has suspiciously been unavailable to get ahold of to cancel the visit. If it were me, I would have told him to take a hike. If he refused, would be calling the police. I don't care if it caused a rift, my home is my castle. I work hard and pay good money to keep it clean. No way, would I let them back in. Ever! Most children are foul, their hygiene is spotty at best at times.

Which brings me to this one SAH Moo I know. I know the pain of a one sided relationship. I stopped visiting and keep her on the down low about my life. I used to be able to have fun conversations with her about shopping, makeup and etc.

Now all she does is get jealous about any things she sees me buy. Plus asks why don't I take her shopping too WITH her kids. Because shes alone in the house and bored. I have a job, she doesn't. The first and last time I did so, her 2 little aliens ran around shrieking like they were on fire. Never again! I like pretty designer purses and makeup. I just saved up my extra funds recently, then bought some nice electronics and a gaming system. I also like a clean home, hers looks like a clutter bomb hit it. They ain't coming over and messing up my nice living room.

All I do now, is stay far far away. She hits me up on messenger occasionally, but I keep it brief. Because now she admitted to cheating on her taxes and is being audited by the IRS. So I know she's going to be whining about a place to live pretty soon, since I'm one of the only people who still talks to her. I have a feeling she's gonna try to weasel her way into my place, as I live alone and all. No way Jose!

Carolyn Hax should be Carolyn Hacks

Childfree Abby is 404, but maybe there is a career for someone in a Childfree Carolyn column? I might make it my retirement project someday.

ETA: And while they are at it, they could have a go at that dreadful Prudie person. Prudie "I didn't want children but had a child for my HUZZ-band and I'm quite happy now," who doesn't believe anyone who writes her expressing CF leanings is actually CF.

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bell_flower

ETA: And while they are at it, they could have a go at that dreadful Prudie person. Prudie "I didn't want children but had a child for my HUZZ-band and I'm quite happy now," who doesn't believe anyone who writes her expressing CF leanings is actually CF.

Is that the old Prudie or the new Prudie that recently came out as trans?

Good catch. The old one was that smug Emily Y0ffe creature. I hadn't heard the new one was trans.

Also, why is it career girl's job to give this moo validation? Why do modern moos need so much validation? Back in the day when there were less BC options, women just sluiced and there was no big deal made. Now it's a choice, and they need back-pats and udder rubs for making a stupid choice.

I'm betting that career girl may be CF. It sounds like she has a good head on her shoulders and doesn't want to ruin her life. Being exposed to this breeder friend could possibly turn her off sluicing forever? Maybe I'm just being optimistic.

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lurker-derp

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bell_flower

ETA: And while they are at it, they could have a go at that dreadful Prudie person. Prudie "I didn't want children but had a child for my HUZZ-band and I'm quite happy now," who doesn't believe anyone who writes her expressing CF leanings is actually CF.

Is that the old Prudie or the new Prudie that recently came out as trans?

There is more than one Prudie? Why would anyone want to replicate that name in the first place?

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bell_flower
Good catch. The old one was that smug Emily Y0ffe creature. I hadn't heard the new one was trans.

Yeah, Mallory Ortberg. He changed his name to Daniel but keeps Mallory as his middle name, and while he's had some off moments, he's given some good advice for the most part.

All this makes me grateful that my childed friend is so sensible about it (and raised a decent human being, not an out-of-control demon child). The effort to hang out, spend time, support each other, etc. is definitely mutual, and if it weren't, if she expected me to make all the overtures AND make everything about her kid, the relationship wouldn't be healthy.

So, basically, I agree with everyone here. Expecting CF friends to be surrogate parents/aunties/babysitters is bullshit, and I have proof that it doesn't have to be that way.