Rant: Headache from arguing with my proliar dad

Honestly times likes this I wish there were a purge. My dad and I just got into a screaming match about abortion and besides for needing a drink, I’m hoping to get some advice on how to shut up proliars. Some of the nuggets of trash:

I asked why is it always women take the pill, or women use BC, or women “don’t get knocked up,” and not MEN wear a condom or MEN get snipped?
The response “women control their p****y not men.” I said that women can’t choose not to be pregnant. If they could magically just not be pregnant, abortion wouldn’t be an issue. I got no reply when I said men need to control their dicks.

When I said I was pro choice, I was called a communist, a supporter of tearing down monuments, a supporter of the welfare state, and pro slavery. I was told I am “one of them!”
I am in fact pro capitalism, pro 2 a, pro environment, anti hunting, anti welfare, and anti slavery. Some of those may seem contradictory, with laisez fare economics and pro 2a being on the right, and abortion / green activism on the left. I can have these seemingly contradictory beliefs because SHOCKER I am an individual. I believe in things based on certain principles, and I hope, logic. I told my dad that, “with that logic, he must also be for murdering gays and molesting children, because you’re catholic.” All I got was “that’s not true!”

I took objection to the fact that he kept calling zygotes “children.” I said that equating a zygote to an ACTUALLY LIVING CHILD shows a gross misunderstanding of biology. Besides which, even if you are going to equate the two, that debate doesn’t even touch on the cruelty to the WOMAN who has to carry that zygote. The response? A zygote is the same as a child.

I was told that “your arguments don’t hold water,” and “what am I saying that doesn’t make sense?” I literally just TOLD this bastard what he is saying doesn’t make sense and why, but instead of getting logical responses I got shouted at and called names. My throat is raw from trying to out scream this idiot. I am so sick. My head hurts and my throat is raw and I need a drink. Does anyone have any advice on recovering from such encounters? I’m really fucking sick of women being told to “stop being whores,” and hearing that “sex is normal, men can’t be expected not to have it.” I’m so done. And to any lurking misogynists reading this, I am not “apologizing for people to be whores.”

I’m a repulsed asexual. I’m the least whorish person I know. The difference though between misogynists and I is that I don’t care what people do with their bodies. I don’t care if women sleep with 1 man or with 100 men, I literally do not care because it DOESN’T AFFECT ME. /rant

Lock him up or put him down.
Stolen from Shiny.

I'd cut contact with someone like that. If someone doesn't believe I deserve bodily autonomy, well, I'd rather have nothing to do with them.

So he's Catholic, huh? So are you one of 11 children? Or did your parents by any chance take measures to prevent themselves from having so many children? Everything except the rhythm method is still disallowed by the church. So he's probably a hypocrite according to his own beliefs...a second reason not to associate with him.

@ Yurble

I’m adopted, but you’re not far off on the rest. I’m 1/3, but my dad’s family is huge, he has 6 siblings, all but two of them also have multiple children. Ooooh. I didn’t know that about the Catholic Church. It’s a good point I’ll bring up if it comes up again, which hopefully it won’t. I just can’t believe there are men - people that will literally never experience pregnancy {unless they get a sex change, I guess, but I somehow doubt the people protesting abortions are the ones getting sex changes} that are so vehemently against abortion. They claim to care so much about life, yeah, sure. You care about “life” when it’s a two celled zygote, but let that zygote turn into an LGBTQA person or a woman, then fuck them. Dear lurking liars, if you care about the QUANTITY but not the QUALITY of life, YOU ARE NOT PRO LIFE. If you care about a zygote but not LGBTQA people and women, YOU ARE NOT PRO LIFE. You are pro birth.

Lock him up or put him down.
Stolen from Shiny.

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contemplativeintrovert
When I said I was pro choice, I was called a communist, a supporter of tearing down monuments, a supporter of the welfare state, and pro slavery. I was told I am “one of them!”
I am in fact pro capitalism, pro 2 a, pro environment, anti hunting, anti welfare, and anti slavery. Some of those may seem contradictory, with laisez fare economics and pro 2a being on the right, and abortion / green activism on the left. I can have these seemingly contradictory beliefs because SHOCKER I am an individual.

I admire that you have your own contradictory beliefs, it shows depth as a human being. This proves you don't follow herd mentality and can make your own mind up about politics. I respect people who can do this much more than the herd (regardless of what they believe). And I'd much rather engage in a conversation with those outside the herd, regardless of their beliefs, because I just might learn something new. With the herd it is going to be the same recycled bullshit, guaranteed.

I also have deep respect for those who possess empathy as most have a very limited grasp of it if any. You didn't have to experience a pregnancy to understand women in that situation.

Your father is part of the herd (at least when it comes to politics) and you challenged him so he went into defensive mode. I find this always happens with the herd, they are 100% predictable. Best not to engage them on anything that requires independent thought because they are incapable of it and it will just frustrate you and anger them. Just talk about unimportant stuff so they won't feel threatened, good to search for popular culture crap and find some relevant subject matter as that doesn't threaten anyone.

A man would set up a laboratory in the garage to grow a baby in a thermos jug before "experiencing a pregnancy". Was your dad like the other devout Catholic men I knew, who all had a degree in engineering, were surly and obnoxious, who had a wife with an MRS degree and 6 to 11 kids, a diaper pail constantly in the bathroom, and was a rude usher in the church? You might want to find out more about the Catholic church, but for now, know that they are very pro large family and the Pope doesn't like those little pills women take every day.

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contemplativeintrovert
Honestly times likes this I wish there were a purge. My dad and I just got into a screaming match about abortion and besides for needing a drink, I’m hoping to get some advice on how to shut up proliars. Some of the nuggets of trash:

I asked why is it always women take the pill, or women use BC, or women “don’t get knocked up,” and not MEN wear a condom or MEN get snipped?
The response “women control their p****y not men.” I said that women can’t choose not to be pregnant. If they could magically just not be pregnant, abortion wouldn’t be an issue. I got no reply when I said men need to control their dicks.

When I said I was pro choice, I was called a communist, a supporter of tearing down monuments, a supporter of the welfare state, and pro slavery. I was told I am “one of them!”
I am in fact pro capitalism, pro 2 a, pro environment, anti hunting, anti welfare, and anti slavery. Some of those may seem contradictory, with laisez fare economics and pro 2a being on the right, and abortion / green activism on the left. I can have these seemingly contradictory beliefs because SHOCKER I am an individual. I believe in things based on certain principles, and I hope, logic. I told my dad that, “with that logic, he must also be for murdering gays and molesting children, because you’re catholic.” All I got was “that’s not true!”

I took objection to the fact that he kept calling zygotes “children.” I said that equating a zygote to an ACTUALLY LIVING CHILD shows a gross misunderstanding of biology. Besides which, even if you are going to equate the two, that debate doesn’t even touch on the cruelty to the WOMAN who has to carry that zygote. The response? A zygote is the same as a child.

I was told that “your arguments don’t hold water,” and “what am I saying that doesn’t make sense?” I literally just TOLD this bastard what he is saying doesn’t make sense and why, but instead of getting logical responses I got shouted at and called names. My throat is raw from trying to out scream this idiot. I am so sick. My head hurts and my throat is raw and I need a drink. Does anyone have any advice on recovering from such encounters? I’m really fucking sick of women being told to “stop being whores,” and hearing that “sex is normal, men can’t be expected not to have it.” I’m so done. And to any lurking misogynists reading this, I am not “apologizing for people to be whores.”

I’m a repulsed asexual. I’m the least whorish person I know. The difference though between misogynists and I is that I don’t care what people do with their bodies. I don’t care if women sleep with 1 man or with 100 men, I literally do not care because it DOESN’T AFFECT ME. /rant

Sounds like you've been fathered by a piece of work.

+++++++++++++

Passive Aggressive
Master Of Anti-brat
Excuses!

Most of the people who espouse views such as your father are addicted to emotional responses, traditional concepts and talking points.
They are unwilling to deal with logic or entertain other points of view at all.
I no longer waste me time or energy on such people.

There are people who can see that something hurts others, and avoid doing it. They have true empathy.

There are people who don't necessarily see something on their own, but if someone points out the pain their actions cause, they understand it and try to adjust. They have some empathy.

Then there are the people who have sympathy, but not empathy. They only really see the effect if it involves someone they love: their son turns out to be gay, their daughter is raped and needs an abortion, etc. But once they do see it they understand the bigger picture. There is very little point in talking to these people unless you can present Exhibit A: someone they love who is afflicted with the problem.

Finally there are the people who have neither sympathy nor empathy, and care only about themselves and how they appear to the world. They'd rather kick out their children, beat them, or kill them if they "reflect poorly" upon the parent by believing the wrong thing, having the wrong sexuality, having sex, or falling in love with the wrong person. They'll send a mistress to get an abortion to avoid a wife finding out about the mistress, but that doesn't mean they condone abortions for other people. In short, they are nasty, authoritarian assholes who love nobody but themselves. There is never any point in talking to people like this. The only leverage to changing their minds at all is how they are perceived by others, but since they usually surround themselves with groups of like-minded jerks, their own point of view is continually reinforced regardless of what broader society thinks of their mindset.

If your father is the sympathetic but not empathetic type, I'd say bypass the conversation until you can present Exhibit A. If he's only concerned about himself, I'd say the best you can do is give him the shame of the community knowing that a child - one who is reportedly doing well by all accounts - has chosen to cut him out completely.

Don't engage with him. Sounds like someone who cannot effectively debate using facts and turns to personal attacks. There's no point in having discussions with those sorts of minimal-thinking folks. My FIL is the same way, and I've had to cut him off on Facebook. He would not STFU about Hillary Clinton, calling her a bitch. He would post anti-Hillary stuff on my page and send me sexist jokes, even after I told him to stop. DH had to tell him that his "jokes" were not welcome in our house, and if he didn't cool it, he wouldn't be coming over anymore. Last Xmas, he said, "You know, we should be friends again on FB so I can send you Hillary jokes." I looked straight at him and said, "And that's why I won't be friends with you on FB." I did not smile. I held his stare until he looked away. Game over, asshole.

My aunt is CL, and a Catholic extremist. She beats people over the head with the Bible, and cherry picks Scripture to suit her own needs. She is also a self-serving malignant narcissist who has a very criminal and manipulative mind. She is a pro-liar, too. She hates other women, and refers to them as 'sluts' and 'whores'. She also hates men, including her own husband who happens to have a disability.

She hates abortion. She's rattled on to me and other family members about how the population is going down, (yeah, right, show me the evidence, lady), and how the whores are killing off the next generation. Abortion is, in her mind, a way for sluts to get out of their punishment for having sex. If she knows a person who has had multiple children and are deemed a 'Good Catholic' by the community, she praises them up the ying-yang. It actually makes me want to puke.

When I was on my cruise last year with my aunt and two sisters, my one sister got into an argument with my aunt about abortion. It was really ugly. During the argument, I told my aunt, "Hey, Auntie, I had an ABORTION. Am I a whore?" She had to back down.

It sounds to me like your father hates women. I'm so sorry to hear you have gone through this. It sucks royally, but believe me. There is no winning an argument with a twisted pro-liar freak. I'd just avoid him as much as possible. I'm doing that with my Aunt. She wants me to call her Monday morning, and I don't think I will. She's a scary, dangerous person.

There is a very old saying: Fences make good neighbors.

This sounds like the situation you face with your father. Put up a mental fence between yourself and your father regarding this subject, and you should get along well enough. I don't think he is the type you can be fully connected with.

+++++++++++++

Passive Aggressive
Master Of Anti-brat
Excuses!

Before arguing with anyone about anything it’s good to ask him or her if there is anything that would change his or her mind. For example, if you took me to the edge of Earth and I could see into space, it would change my mind about the world being round, or if some scientific discovery showed that a 6 week old fetus has consciousness and can suffer it would change my mind about abortion. If the answer is that nothing would change his or her mind, then they are operating on dogma and you can’t even discuss it. If you do, you are just wanting to aggravate yourself.

I suspect that nothing would change your father’s mind. There are abortion protesters who have abortions and then go back to protesting the next week. People are funny. If you engage such people in a debate you have to expect that they will always walk away the winners. I’m way smarter than my cat, but she can manipulate me all the same. It is what it is.

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happyhiker
People are funny. If you engage such people in a debate you have to expect that they will always walk away the winners.

Never play chess with a pigeon. The pigeon just knocks all the pieces over. Then shits all over the board.
Then struts around like it won.

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mumofsixbirds
My aunt is CL, and a Catholic extremist. She beats people over the head with the Bible, and cherry picks Scripture to suit her own needs. She is also a self-serving malignant narcissist who has a very criminal and manipulative mind. She is a pro-liar, too. She hates other women, and refers to them as 'sluts' and 'whores'. She also hates men, including her own husband who happens to have a disability.

She hates abortion. She's rattled on to me and other family members about how the population is going down, (yeah, right, show me the evidence, lady), and how the whores are killing off the next generation. Abortion is, in her mind, a way for sluts to get out of their punishment for having sex. If she knows a person who has had multiple children and are deemed a 'Good Catholic' by the community, she praises them up the ying-yang. It actually makes me want to puke.

When I was on my cruise last year with my aunt and two sisters, my one sister got into an argument with my aunt about abortion. It was really ugly. During the argument, I told my aunt, "Hey, Auntie, I had an ABORTION. Am I a whore?" She had to back down.

It sounds to me like your father hates women. I'm so sorry to hear you have gone through this. It sucks royally, but believe me. There is no winning an argument with a twisted pro-liar freak. I'd just avoid him as much as possible. I'm doing that with my Aunt. She wants me to call her Monday morning, and I don't think I will. She's a scary, dangerous person.

Glad you're avoiding her. She sounds toxic and seems to hate pretty much everything. The fact that you enjoy your life must really set her off!

Don't argue with someone who doesn't believe in facts. It's like wrestling with a pig, you'll get dirty and the pig likes it. I just go with the "disregard outright" approach. And don't think I don't inform them as to WHY I disregard them. It's satisfying to tell them. Tell them that miscarriages are abortions from God, they like that.

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yurble
There are people who can see that something hurts others, and avoid doing it. They have true empathy.

There are people who don't necessarily see something on their own, but if someone points out the pain their actions cause, they understand it and try to adjust. They have some empathy.

Then there are the people who have sympathy, but not empathy. They only really see the effect if it involves someone they love: their son turns out to be gay, their daughter is raped and needs an abortion, etc. But once they do see it they understand the bigger picture. There is very little point in talking to these people unless you can present Exhibit A: someone they love who is afflicted with the problem.

Finally there are the people who have neither sympathy nor empathy, and care only about themselves and how they appear to the world. They'd rather kick out their children, beat them, or kill them if they "reflect poorly" upon the parent by believing the wrong thing, having the wrong sexuality, having sex, or falling in love with the wrong person. They'll send a mistress to get an abortion to avoid a wife finding out about the mistress, but that doesn't mean they condone abortions for other people. In short, they are nasty, authoritarian assholes who love nobody but themselves. There is never any point in talking to people like this. The only leverage to changing their minds at all is how they are perceived by others, but since they usually surround themselves with groups of like-minded jerks, their own point of view is continually reinforced regardless of what broader society thinks of their mindset.

If your father is the sympathetic but not empathetic type, I'd say bypass the conversation until you can present Exhibit A. If he's only concerned about himself, I'd say the best you can do is give him the shame of the community knowing that a child - one who is reportedly doing well by all accounts - has chosen to cut him out completely.

^^^^^ THIS. Just... all of THIS.

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contemplativeintrovert
I’m a repulsed asexual. I’m the least whorish person I know. The difference though between misogynists and I is that I don’t care what people do with their bodies. I don’t care if women sleep with 1 man or with 100 men, I literally do not care because it DOESN’T AFFECT ME. /rant

Last thing.. Hey! My wife is ace! Hiya!

Sometimes abortion is the least of all evils, but the pro-life zealots refuse to recognize that till it's their turn. Even Sarah Palin admitted she considered aborting her last kid after learning he would have Down's. And if she had terminated the pregnancy, few others would have judged her harshly for it.

Thank you guys all for your understanding. I know that wasn’t a well thought out post, more like a raving diatribe, but I appreciate the time it took you guys to read and respond.

I need to just stop talking to him completely. I honestly did believe that If you had an argument based on logic, if you can provide good counter examples, and good reasons why something should / shouldn’t be, you could convince people. I guess I have 100% been proven wrong.

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catharsist
Don't argue with someone who doesn't believe in facts. It's like wrestling with a pig, you'll get dirty and the pig likes it. I just go with the "disregard outright" approach. And don't think I don't inform them as to WHY I disregard them. It's satisfying to tell them. Tell them that miscarriages are abortions from God, they like that.

This!! Nail, meet head. I had never heard the expression before “doesn’t believe in facts,” but this is a perfect statement to describe him.

@ Freya Thank you for your kind words, and thank you for understanding. It is so frustrating that in today’s politics everything boils down to us VS them, and you their believe everything from {Set A} of beliefs or you believe everything from {Set B} of beliefs. Like you can’t be all “I own my body so I have a right to protect it with a gun” {I do agree with this} and also “life is sacred so you can’t have an abortion” {I don’t agree with this}. Either people have total autonomy {meaning you can do whatever whenever with your body and you can protect yourself however} or you don’t. And if you don’t have total ownership of your body, who does? That would be scary. I wonder, are proliars also for forced medical procedures? Would they be ok living in a world where they could be forced to surrender a kidney, or set up to a hypothetical machine that kept someone else alive, like a woman keeps a fetus alive? I somehow doubt that.

Thank you guys so much. It’s nice to know that not all of humanity is completely brainless.

ETA: @ Catharsist aaaayyyee! Aces for the win! If I had cake I’d salute you with it, but I’m sadly cakeless atm

Lock him up or put him down.
Stolen from Shiny.