First Commode list of the month

It's about that time again to see how the swine are faring in their little enclosures.

- "Wah wah wah, my kid is an aww-tard and the pills aren't making him normal!" http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?p=15892829#post15892829

- Moo lives with her parents "out of necessity" (probably can't afford to live on their own). Of course, Moo is a SAHMoo and bitches that her mother has hurt her infants on accident several times. One example was Granny wearing the kid in a feet-dangling sling and taking cookies out of the oven with it on, burning the kid's foot. Yes, it is necessary to live with someone who hurts your kids. Good parenting there, Moo. http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=1267593

- I commend these folks for wanting to adopt, but is it really a good idea to adopt a toddler with HIV and stick her with their semi-retarded son? http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?p=15827044#post15827044

- Anti-vaccination morons are denied adoption rights because their bio brats aren't vaccinated. Considering a religious exemption to get around those pesky agency rules. http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=1260820

- OMG, what do you do when your toddler begs for a new toy and you can't' afford to? How's about tell him NO, you jelly-spine! http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=1265962

- Holy crap, babies and toddlers scream and it's making the Moomies crazy! Oh, but they won't beat the fuckers because they just can't bring themselves to strike a child. Even though it's plain as day they want to lay these kids out and give 'em something to cry about. http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=1262184

- Four-year-old brat bites toddler in the face, shows no remorse and tells her Moo that she's being a "bad mommy." Duh wants desperately to beat the kid's ass, but Moo "knows it won't help matters." Someone suggests the advice of a professional non-disciplinarian who suggests that when kyds get violent and bitey, you make them sit. Whoo-friggin-hoo. Yeah, because sittin' will make her real scared. http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=1267351

- Moo wonders how to handle destructive little bastard who ruins people's stuff and hurts other kids. Why, she must talk to him gently and use positive reinforcement! Oh, and she often says she doesn't watch him because she herself has ADHD and can't pay much attention to him. How wonderful. If she's an aww-tard, her parenting is going to turn even the most normal kid into a brat-tard. http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=1265439

- Dumbass cow brings home two kittens with a toadler in the house. Of course, the brat doesn't know how to handle the cats and will choke them to stop her Moo from taking them from her when she's being too rough. Moo won't put the cats in a separate room away from the brat because they feel it's important for their child to learn to be gentle with animals. Poor cats will be dead very soon, I'm sure. http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=1265135

- Moo-ranting: How dare my ex go on to marry and have kids with a new woman and not give me any money for the fuckers he fathered with MEEEEE!? Moo claims child support is "a pitiful amount." Yeah, okay. You chose to breed with the job-hopping fucker-scammer, so take your bitching and shove it. http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?p=15891744#post15891744

- Oh noes, Moo and her husband won't get any time together because their brat won't sleep when Moo wants him to and it takes over an hour to make him lay down. Sorry, but your forfeit free time when you shit out a kid. And of course, knowing full well now that kids are pains in the ass, Moo is about three months away from shitting another maggot. http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=1266938

- Shock of shocks, Moo has hired a babysitter. But how can she tell the sitter she wants her to co-sleep with the toddler and 5-year-old? http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=1267514

- Who cares about those fire safety and occupancy rules, Moo and Duh want to bring their baby with them to the B&B and co-sleep! The place won't allow them to, so smart Duh says they should just bring a Pack-And-Play (whatever that is) and let the kid sleep in that to totally teach those B&B owners a lesson! Of course, fellow cattle are chiming in that they wouldn't patronize an ebil place that "used their children as excuses to not allow them in." http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=1263804

- Mommy thinks it's funny that her un-vaxed son might catch something some doctors may not recognize because they have been controlled and mostly eliminated by vaccines. I hope she still thinks it's funny when her bastard gets diphtheria or polio. http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=1265495

- Anti-vax Moo claims she prayed and Gawd told her not to vaccinate her kids. Uses religious exemption for her kid's school, and the school isn't happy and wants official documentation from a religious organization. Moo says they don't belong to any organization and they just pray to imaginary people on their own. School still no likey. http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=1256817

'Scuse me while I play the world's tiniest violin for the Moos who brought their shit lives upon themselves. :crz

"Our 4yo has been destructive with his toys for a while now. He can also be very intense and he is high spirited.
Examples:

-if he doesn't want to play with the train tracks anymore, he will destroy them and smash them apart
-if he decides he doesn't like a toy or item he will smash or otherwise try to destroy it. Sometimes I can catch him doing this, sometimes I can't
-sometimes I think he is rough/destroys things just for fun"

One-that is not "spirited". that is "destructive". Stop giving bad behavior names that make it sound like a positive trait.

Two-you know what else does this behavior? Dogs. When dogs get tired of playing with toys, they destroy them. You stop them from destroying things by beating their asses.

"He has played over at our neighbor's frequently (they have 3 kids, mainly he plays with the girl that is a bit older and the boy is younger than him). I just learned last night, after the neighbor dad was at our house watching TV with DH, that DS destroyed a baseball stand (he said it was while I was there but I honestly never saw it). DS recently was also taking a hammer and pounding on the fence, and a golf club and whacking it on the fence (between our yards, it is our fence). They didn't want their kids near it in case something went flying, and maybe they are afraid he will do that to the kids too."

No shit they are concerned. I'm sure they don't like the fact that toys they bought for their kids, who are probably not feral beasts like yours is, are being demolished. Toys aren't cheap. They probably don't like their property, such as the fence, being destroyed or damaged by some violent brat either. While I could ask the obvious question here-why the Hell is a four year old wielding a hammer and a golf club?-I am going to say instead that it appears this kid's behavior might be escalating-he is no longer happy demolishing toys and instead wants to go onto bigger and more expensive adult owned property. Maybe neighbor mom and dad are concerned about what he is going to do when he is tired of playing with their kids.


"DH said that when DS is playing with just the girl, he is fine but when it's 3 kids together then DS is vying to be the number one in the group and wants all the attention (I have noticed he is a leader-type and will do things to get attention, not that those two things are related but that is his personality)."

A hint-it's not "leader behavior". "Leader" types will attempt to dominate a situation, not vie for attention. The kid is aggressive-but he is not a "leader type". Again, don't give negative behavior justification with positive words. If he is fine with the girl alone, it is probably more based in the fact SHE exhibits leader behavior when alone with him.

"So, neighbor mom told neighbor dad that DS is not allowed over there anymore unless neighbor dad is there, that is what the dad told DH last night. Also, apparently, one time DS was over there when another neighbor girl was there, and the dad said the other neighbor girl doesn't want to be around DS either I have no clue what happened, I wasn't there at the time."

You know that thing I said about escalating into more dangerous behavior? It happened. Trust me.

"Sometimes I am out in the yard with DS, sometimes I am not. I don't leave him for long periods on his own out there though, and most of the time I would go over with him to the neighbors (sans about 10 minutes after dinner while I cleaned up). I would always try and direct his behavior and have him help clean up the toys from the yard.

I'm going to buy a new baseball stand for them today and bring it over and apologize, but I don't know what to do to help get DS out of this destructive thing. It's so embarrassing, and I cannot have him wrecking his or others toys just because he feels like it. It's really tough to watch him 24/7 and we have another one due in Feb. which will make it even less so."

Which makes it very imperative to rein his ass in NOW. You want to correct his behavior? I can't give you step by step, as I am, by my presence here, child free, but I can, as an observer and a former substitute teacher, say this-you need to stop letting him run the show, for starters. And you need to put your entire attention to it. I don't care if you have ADHD or not. If you want your child accepted by his peers and to not destroy toys or hurt kids, YOU AND YOUR HUSBAND MUST devote your attention full time to putting the kibosh on his behavior.

I'm going to tell you this-people who tell you this is normal are full of shit. Stop listening to them if you are. You can't keep paying for his antics. It is expensive. And two examples of what it leads to-Lyle and Eric Menendez. Stop making excuses and be assertive.

"And I know that kids his age think the world revolves around them, does anyone know when that thinking starts to dissappear? I told DH he is going to have a hard time with that, and DH said he will get a big reality check when the baby gets here."

Do it now.

"We can't afford any therapy right now unless absolutely necessary, since I am laid off work, we have to pay HBMW and doula and I will likely have to start paying for training for a new job soon."

It is this sort of attitude that is the reason for the kid's behavior. He doesn't need therapy. He needs discipline. He's going to rebel, but stop making excuses and putting "when the baby gets here" or "when we get the money". He'll be standing over you pumping bullets in you or cleaving you to death with an axe in your beds before either of those ever come. Make the rules and enforce them STRICTLY. Parents in the old days did not cart Timmy off to therapy every time they acted up-they beat their asses. They grounded, confiscated, washed mouths out with soap, put to hard labor and forced kids to apologize. And they took a belt, paddle or bare hand to their kids' asses. Yes, I am a huge advocate of spanking. It does not lead to violence. It leads to kids knowing when they have gone too far over the line.

"I have the book The Explosive Child and will see if it says anything about destructive behavior. What else can I do, and how else can I try and smooth it over with the neighbors? Now that it is getting colder out, the kids are not outside as much anyways but obviously this needs to be resolved."

GAH! Get rid of the damn book! It's going to give your kid's problem some positive name and tell you you are not at fault and that Timmy needs therapy. Take the book, and use it to stop your kitchen table from wobbling and, if you need books, invest in one on how to fucking get a spine (Larry Winget) and discipline your kid. And you start smoothing it over with the neighbors by taking your son by his ear and dragging him over to the neighbor's house and teach him to APOLOGIZE. To the parents and to the kids. When they see that you and your husband are actually serious about getting control of your kid, it will help. You won't smooth it over overnight. Deal with it.

Thanks and sorry so long

You won't listen to me anyway.

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"Our 4yo has been destructive with his toys for a while now. He can also be very intense and he is high spirited.
Examples:

-if he doesn't want to play with the train tracks anymore, he will destroy them and smash them apart
-if he decides he doesn't like a toy or item he will smash or otherwise try to destroy it. Sometimes I can catch him doing this, sometimes I can't
-sometimes I think he is rough/destroys things just for fun"

There is an easy solution to this, which is to stop buying the brat toys. Give a limited number of toys for, say, birthday and Christmas, and no toys for any other event, or 'just because' and intercept any toys others might bring him. When he destroys his toys, tell him, "Well, I guess you'll have nothing to play with until [next toy delivery date]. Perhaps you should be more careful with the toys you have left." When he destroys toys belonging to other children, or destroys non-toy items (like the fence) say, "The cost of this is going to come out of the money that we have available to spend on toys. I guess you won't be getting anything for [next toy delivery date] if you keep this up."

That's how you can do it if you don't believe in spanking, and want to do some 'gentle' discipline. I don't think the concept of teaching children without spanking is necessarily a bad one, but discipline must be applied in some way. At four years old the child should be old enough to understand cause and effect, and the consequences to his actions.

Oh, and stop calling him 'high spirited' when what you mean is an uncontrolled brat. Wrapping it up in pretty words does not change it. A rose is still a rose, by any other name, and the same can be said for a pig's ear, which is what you have. The baby will not be a reality check. If a child like this thinks that his position is being usurped by the infant, you are likely to find him trying to kill it, especially if he's already that violent. If you tell the child "no, don't do that, you might hurt the baby" I can all but guarantee that that is exactly how you will find him trying to murder the infant.

I would take everything out of the kid's room except his bed, and then every time he got destructive, he would be sent to his room for the remainder of the day. He would be allowed out to use the bathroom (supervised) and to sit at the table long enough to eat. Then - right back to the barren room. I'll bet this shit would end. There are no consequences for this kid - that's their problem.

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yurble

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"Our 4yo has been destructive with his toys for a while now. He can also be very intense and he is high spirited.
Examples:

-if he doesn't want to play with the train tracks anymore, he will destroy them and smash them apart
-if he decides he doesn't like a toy or item he will smash or otherwise try to destroy it. Sometimes I can catch him doing this, sometimes I can't
-sometimes I think he is rough/destroys things just for fun"

There is an easy solution to this, which is to stop buying the brat toys. Give a limited number of toys for, say, birthday and Christmas, and no toys for any other event, or 'just because' and intercept any toys others might bring him. When he destroys his toys, tell him, "Well, I guess you'll have nothing to play with until [next toy delivery date]. Perhaps you should be more careful with the toys you have left." When he destroys toys belonging to other children, or destroys non-toy items (like the fence) say, "The cost of this is going to come out of the money that we have available to spend on toys. I guess you won't be getting anything for [next toy delivery date] if you keep this up."

That's how you can do it if you don't believe in spanking, and want to do some 'gentle' discipline. I don't think the concept of teaching children without spanking is necessarily a bad one, but discipline must be applied in some way. At four years old the child should be old enough to understand cause and effect, and the consequences to his actions.

Oh, and stop calling him 'high spirited' when what you mean is an uncontrolled brat. Wrapping it up in pretty words does not change it. A rose is still a rose, by any other name, and the same can be said for a pig's ear, which is what you have. The baby will not be a reality check. If a child like this thinks that his position is being usurped by the infant, you are likely to find him trying to kill it, especially if he's already that violent. If you tell the child "no, don't do that, you might hurt the baby" I can all but guarantee that that is exactly how you will find him trying to murder the infant.

i dunno about the non-spanking bit here. there are times when it is definitely needed, such as when he is being a holy terror and hurting other children.

i like the limited giving of toys. guaranteed, these parents buy him toys every time they go out and part of the destruction is that he does not appreciate the them because he knows mom and dad will replace it. i would go as far as when he destroys the toys of another child, mom and dad take a toy that was meant for his gift receiving time and give it to the other kid with the brat present. maybe even have the child do it himself with all parents present so he can't destroy it or hit the other kid with it. make it clear to him before hand that that gift was going to be his birthday or christmas present. is four early enough to start an allowance? maybe mom and dad should have him earn a small allowance for doing things, such as cleaning his room, helping mom at the store or something and if he wants toys between christmas and his birthday then he should use his allowance. perhaps THAT will be more of a "reality check" when he has to work for anything extra. he most likely won't be trashing toys if he had to spend his own money on it. and if he destroys another child's toys or some other property or gets abusive with playmates, it's taken from his allowance as well as out of what he will get for the holidays/birthdays.

not that if you post any of this to her and her husband that they will listen. they can't even call the behavior by negative terms such as "domineering", "aggressive" and "sociopathic".

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gymrat
I would take everything out of the kid's room except his bed, and then every time he got destructive, he would be sent to his room for the remainder of the day. He would be allowed out to use the bathroom (supervised) and to sit at the table long enough to eat. Then - right back to the barren room. I'll bet this shit would end. There are no consequences for this kid - that's their problem.

i agree.

"Moo-ranting: How dare my ex go on to marry and have kids with a new woman and not give me any money for the fuckers he fathered with MEEEEE!? Moo claims child support is "a pitiful amount."



It's always entertaining to me when an old moo gets replaced with a new moo wannabee and she's knocked up with, "one of our own" before the ink is dry on the marriage certificate! This is SO incredibly common that it's funny. In every single case with which I have acquainted, when a moo remarries and is capable of sqatting, she will absolutely make getting knocked up by the current duddy a top priority. It's an unspoken way that they "seal the deal" almost like territorial animal "marking". I have heard them say time and time again that, "Having a chhyyllddd together bonds a husband and wife like nothing else can. You will remain bonded with him for the rest of your lives!". What they fail to relize is that MEN do NOT have that same kind of "bonding" feeling with the female when a loaf is shat. It simply isn't coded into the DNA of the male species to "bond" long term with a fe-moo simply because she has squirted back his seed at him into a human form. WHY can't women see this? I can see it and I am a female.

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If YOU are the "exception" to what I am saying, then why does my commentary bother you so much?
I don't hate your kids, I HATE YOU!

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zatoth
i dunno about the non-spanking bit here. there are times when it is definitely needed, such as when he is being a holy terror and hurting other children.

I should clarify. It is not my personal opinion that you must raise children without spanking. Personally, I think spanking is a great tool for young children, but other forms of punishment can be equally (or more) effective once the child is capable of reason (for some children this will be once they become verbal, for others, it will be a long, long time later).

I don't think that it is necessarily poor parenting to not spank, because there are other ways of enforcing discipline (social exclusion, taking away toys or desired activities, going to bed without dinner, doing pushups, etc--it depends a lot on the individual child what works). So by necessarily I mean 'by definition,' because in some cases it could be poor parenting if spanking is the only sort of discipline that particular child responds to. I've mentioned before that one of my friends didn't discipline his child by spanking, not because he was anti-spanking, but because the child had a high pain threshold and no sense of shame. Social exclusion was the only discipline which worked on that child. That's why I don't think that spanking is a requirement, but merely one possible tool of discipline.

However, it is fairly popular these days to raise children without spanking, so I take it as given that the parents won't spank. Just based on the way they describe their current attempts to solve the problem it is pretty clear that they are anti-spanking. Alas, it seems that most of these anti-spanking parents are unprepared to enforce discipline in other ways, and thus you end up with unholy terrors like the one described.

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kidlesskim
It's always entertaining to me when an old moo gets replaced with a new moo wannabee and she's knocked up with, "one of our own" before the ink is dry on the marriage certificate! This is SO incredibly common that it's funny. In every single case with which I have acquainted, when a moo remarries and is capable of sqatting, she will absolutely make getting knocked up by the current duddy a top priority. It's an unspoken way that they "seal the deal" almost like territorial animal "marking". I have heard them say time and time again that, "Having a chhyyllddd together bonds a husband and wife like nothing else can. You will remain bonded with him for the rest of your lives!". What they fail to relize is that MEN do NOT have that same kind of "bonding" feeling with the female when a loaf is shat. It simply isn't coded into the DNA of the male species to "bond" long term with a fe-moo simply because she has squirted back his seed at him into a human form. WHY can't women see this? I can see it and I am a female.

No capacity for logic, these idiots. Common sense would tell you that if he left the first moo and kids, he can do the same to you. If he didn't stick out a lifetime bond with her, it's unlikely that he will with you. (This is, of course, assuming you believe in lifetime bonds. I'm content with most of my relationships having a duration of somewhere around 4-5 years.)

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yurble

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kidlesskim
It's always entertaining to me when an old moo gets replaced with a new moo wannabee and she's knocked up with, "one of our own" before the ink is dry on the marriage certificate! This is SO incredibly common that it's funny. In every single case with which I have acquainted, when a moo remarries and is capable of sqatting, she will absolutely make getting knocked up by the current duddy a top priority. It's an unspoken way that they "seal the deal" almost like territorial animal "marking". I have heard them say time and time again that, "Having a chhyyllddd together bonds a husband and wife like nothing else can. You will remain bonded with him for the rest of your lives!". What they fail to relize is that MEN do NOT have that same kind of "bonding" feeling with the female when a loaf is shat. It simply isn't coded into the DNA of the male species to "bond" long term with a fe-moo simply because she has squirted back his seed at him into a human form. WHY can't women see this? I can see it and I am a female.

No capacity for logic, these idiots. Common sense would tell you that if he left the first moo and kids, he can do the same to you. If he didn't stick out a lifetime bond with her, it's unlikely that he will with you. (This is, of course, assuming you believe in lifetime bonds. I'm content with most of my relationships having a duration of somewhere around 4-5 years.)

Oh, but they're "special" and it was the OTHER moo's fault because SHE "......ran him off and he will be different with me." It's just plain strange to me the way that their logic(or lack thereof) works. I have worked with women who were shacking with AND knocked up by a guy who has 3,4, or MORE known ex-moos with a hodge podge gaggle of Heinz 57 kids in the kitty who he does NOT support, but she just KNOWS that when SHE shits the new loaf that he will be bonded to her and the brat forever and ever. A lot of people call this a "self esteem" problem, but I call it LOW MENTALITY.

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If YOU are the "exception" to what I am saying, then why does my commentary bother you so much?
I don't hate your kids, I HATE YOU!

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yurble

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kidlesskim
It's always entertaining to me when an old moo gets replaced with a new moo wannabee and she's knocked up with, "one of our own" before the ink is dry on the marriage certificate! This is SO incredibly common that it's funny. In every single case with which I have acquainted, when a moo remarries and is capable of sqatting, she will absolutely make getting knocked up by the current duddy a top priority. It's an unspoken way that they "seal the deal" almost like territorial animal "marking". I have heard them say time and time again that, "Having a chhyyllddd together bonds a husband and wife like nothing else can. You will remain bonded with him for the rest of your lives!". What they fail to relize is that MEN do NOT have that same kind of "bonding" feeling with the female when a loaf is shat. It simply isn't coded into the DNA of the male species to "bond" long term with a fe-moo simply because she has squirted back his seed at him into a human form. WHY can't women see this? I can see it and I am a female.

No capacity for logic, these idiots. Common sense would tell you that if he left the first moo and kids, he can do the same to you. If he didn't stick out a lifetime bond with her, it's unlikely that he will with you. (This is, of course, assuming you believe in lifetime bonds. I'm content with most of my relationships having a duration of somewhere around 4-5 years.)

it's a primal instinct thing. so is when the new spouse/boyfriend acts against the children of the old boyfriend/spouse. if you don't believe me, look at how other apes act. they form harems to ensure they spread their genes. when they take over a harem, they kill off any young children from the previous male. breeder behavior is much more explainable when you look at our supposedly closest relatives. it's also WHY i get pissed over this "picking and choosing" of which instinct we have control over-we don't have control over sexual urges because they are "natural", but we are supposed to have control over killing off the young of previous mates, which is also "natural". you either can control animalistic urges and tendencies as a whole or not at all.

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kidlesskim

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yurble

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kidlesskim
It's always entertaining to me when an old moo gets replaced with a new moo wannabee and she's knocked up with, "one of our own" before the ink is dry on the marriage certificate! This is SO incredibly common that it's funny. In every single case with which I have acquainted, when a moo remarries and is capable of sqatting, she will absolutely make getting knocked up by the current duddy a top priority. It's an unspoken way that they "seal the deal" almost like territorial animal "marking". I have heard them say time and time again that, "Having a chhyyllddd together bonds a husband and wife like nothing else can. You will remain bonded with him for the rest of your lives!". What they fail to relize is that MEN do NOT have that same kind of "bonding" feeling with the female when a loaf is shat. It simply isn't coded into the DNA of the male species to "bond" long term with a fe-moo simply because she has squirted back his seed at him into a human form. WHY can't women see this? I can see it and I am a female.

No capacity for logic, these idiots. Common sense would tell you that if he left the first moo and kids, he can do the same to you. If he didn't stick out a lifetime bond with her, it's unlikely that he will with you. (This is, of course, assuming you believe in lifetime bonds. I'm content with most of my relationships having a duration of somewhere around 4-5 years.)

Oh, but they're "special" and it was the OTHER moo's fault because SHE "......ran him off and he will be different with me." It's just plain strange to me the way that their logic(or lack thereof) works. I have worked with women who were shacking with AND knocked up by a guy who has 3,4, or MORE known ex-moos with a hodge podge gaggle of Heinz 57 kids in the kitty who he does NOT support, but she just KNOWS that when SHE shits the new loaf that he will be bonded to her and the brat forever and ever. A lot of people call this a "self esteem" problem, but I call it LOW MENTALITY.

i call it "clueless".

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kidlesskim
Oh, but they're "special" and it was the OTHER moo's fault because SHE "......ran him off and he will be different with me." It's just plain strange to me the way that their logic(or lack thereof) works. I have worked with women who were shacking with AND knocked up by a guy who has 3,4, or MORE known ex-moos with a hodge podge gaggle of Heinz 57 kids in the kitty who he does NOT support, but she just KNOWS that when SHE shits the new loaf that he will be bonded to her and the brat forever and ever. A lot of people call this a "self esteem" problem, but I call it LOW MENTALITY.

Where's the low self-esteem in believing that you (and you alone) can change someone? "Oh, he would never cheat on me, because he left his wife for me after we started our affair, tee-hee-hee!" "I know she's addicted to drugs, but I'm sure she'll quit for me." "He may have just gotten out of jail for beating up his ex, but he'd never harm a hair on my head! Plus he absolutely adores our little Shitina." "She may be a stalker whose ex has a restraining order against her, but I can reform her with my love." Low mentality is right.

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yurble

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zatoth
i dunno about the non-spanking bit here. there are times when it is definitely needed, such as when he is being a holy terror and hurting other children.

I should clarify. It is not my personal opinion that you must raise children without spanking. Personally, I think spanking is a great tool for young children, but other forms of punishment can be equally (or more) effective once the child is capable of reason (for some children this will be once they become verbal, for others, it will be a long, long time later).

I don't think that it is necessarily poor parenting to not spank, because there are other ways of enforcing discipline (social exclusion, taking away toys or desired activities, going to bed without dinner, doing pushups, etc--it depends a lot on the individual child what works). So by necessarily I mean 'by definition,' because in some cases it could be poor parenting if spanking is the only sort of discipline that particular child responds to. I've mentioned before that one of my friends didn't discipline his child by spanking, not because he was anti-spanking, but because the child had a high pain threshold and no sense of shame. Social exclusion was the only discipline which worked on that child. That's why I don't think that spanking is a requirement, but merely one possible tool of discipline.

However, it is fairly popular these days to raise children without spanking, so I take it as given that the parents won't spank. Just based on the way they describe their current attempts to solve the problem it is pretty clear that they are anti-spanking. Alas, it seems that most of these anti-spanking parents are unprepared to enforce discipline in other ways, and thus you end up with unholy terrors like the one described.

i don't think it is necessary to spank in all cases either-some kids are more with it than others. sorry for misinterpretting. but these parents are not just anti-spank. they are seriously anti-anything. they can't even describe his aggression as "aggression". if they won't even consider their son's behavior in negative terms, then how are they going to straighten him out? "destructive" to them is "high spirited" and "aggressive" is "leader abilities". they live in a land of make believe. i guess when he's in school biting other kids and the teachers, that will be some other sugar coated "trait".

- "Wah wah wah, my kid is an aww-tard and the pills aren't making him normal!" http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?p=15892829#post15892829

I'm reading through this particular thread right now and am tickled mightily at the mommy poster whose signature reads, "Heather, mom to Caileigh 12/06 and aspie ADHD prodigy David 05/98."

Of her amazing prodigy, she says:

His 'natural' tendency is to be lazy, selfish... and to blame everyone and everything else for his problems. He will not take responsibility for his own actions, attitude, self, etc. I know that this is in large part due to the Asperger's and not that he's "bad", but the net result is still that he behaves with very little empathy, very little respect for others, like he expects the world to be handed to him on a silver platter.

Anyway, most days are actually pretty good lately, but there are bad days, and they're really bad. Today was really bad. He'll have these terrible tantrums... while they used to be violent and physical when he was younger, now he just cries. Wails. Sobs. As though his heart is being rent from his chest. Then when it's really bad, it escalates from there. Apparently, I hate him, and I want him to be miserable. I never listen to him, nobody ever listens to him. These are all pretty "normal" complaints from a tantruming adolescent, I know.

I know the rest of you are as impressed as I am with the stories about this "prodigy", and no doubt the thought has crossed your mind that he's probably going to do great and wonderful things with his life.

Whatever gets you through the day, mom. eyes2

________________________________________________


"The secret of dealing successfully with a child is not to be its parent." -- Mel Lazarus
"Women who miscalculate are called mothers." -- Abigail Van Buren
"Better to be deprived of food for three days, than tea for one." -- Chinese proverb

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zatoth
i don't think it is necessary to spank in all cases either-some kids are more with it than others. sorry for misinterpretting. but these parents are not just anti-spank. they are seriously anti-anything. they can't even describe his aggression as "aggression". if they won't even consider their son's behavior in negative terms, then how are they going to straighten him out? "destructive" to them is "high spirited" and "aggressive" is "leader abilities". they live in a land of make believe. i guess when he's in school biting other kids and the teachers, that will be some other sugar coated "trait".

I agree with you about these parents. They are not prepared to discipline in any way, and so it is no surprise that their child is a monster, and they can't see that for the truth.

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RatsNotBrats
- "Wah wah wah, my kid is an aww-tard and the pills aren't making him normal!" http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?p=15892829#post15892829

I'm reading through this particular thread right now and am tickled mightily at the mommy poster whose signature reads, "Heather, mom to Caileigh 12/06 and aspie ADHD prodigy David 05/98."

Of her amazing prodigy, she says:

His 'natural' tendency is to be lazy, selfish... and to blame everyone and everything else for his problems. He will not take responsibility for his own actions, attitude, self, etc. I know that this is in large part due to the Asperger's and not that he's "bad", but the net result is still that he behaves with very little empathy, very little respect for others, like he expects the world to be handed to him on a silver platter.

Anyway, most days are actually pretty good lately, but there are bad days, and they're really bad. Today was really bad. He'll have these terrible tantrums... while they used to be violent and physical when he was younger, now he just cries. Wails. Sobs. As though his heart is being rent from his chest. Then when it's really bad, it escalates from there. Apparently, I hate him, and I want him to be miserable. I never listen to him, nobody ever listens to him. These are all pretty "normal" complaints from a tantruming adolescent, I know.

I know the rest of you are as impressed as I am with the stories about this "prodigy", and no doubt the thought has crossed your mind that he's probably going to do great and wonderful things with his life.

Whatever gets you through the day, mom. eyes2

i like the poetic terms-"rent from his chest". we live in the 21st century. Not back in William Blake's day. you can spare us the emo-goth verbage.

another sugar coating parent-"His 'natural' tendency is to be lazy, selfish... and to blame everyone and everything else for his problems"-that's called NORMAL, dearest. that does not make him a "prodigy" by any stretch. how does your other kid feel about this doting over your "aspie adhd prodigy" while she's just "Caleigh". and how does your son feel about you pasting labels up about him so that the whole fucking planet knows what's wrong with him?

If by "prodigy" you mean "shaved ape who flings crap" you've got a real gifted offspring.

We are so much better and smarter than these clueless twatmuffins.

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Miss_Hannigan
If by "prodigy" you mean "shaved ape who flings crap" you've got a real gifted offspring.

We are so much better and smarter than these clueless twatmuffins.

larious:satan

:partay:beer

Obligatory warning: Contains completely made-up animal abuse.

My child is such a prodigy! (He does have aspies and is ADHD, but that does not mask his genius.) Why, at the age of only 2 years, he was taking the shit out of his diapers and smearing it on the walls. He's so artistic! After that he started a phase where he banged on the cooking pots for 12 hours straight a day, and I was sure he was going to be a little drummer. Then at the age of five he managed to set the house on fire, which is really early compared to when most pyromaniacs get started! I was convinced he'd become a fireman. Shortly after that, he dropped the cat out of his bedroom window, to see if she'd land on her feet (she did, but she hasn't come back home since, which is probably just as well because I couldn't stand the way she screeched when David pulled her tail). My son, the scientist! Then, when he was eight and his sister was born, I had to have her co-sleep with me because we caught him sneaking into her room a few times and putting a pillow over her face. He's so precocious, lol! My neighbor recently came over to complain that they'd found their dog staked out in the lawn. I said, "What are you going to do? He's a prodigy. He's probably going to be a vet some day!" Just yesterday he told me he hated me, which made me a little sad, and then he said he was going to bash my head in with a hammer and cut me up with a saw. Using a hammer and saw already, at the age of just 12! Such a little handyman. He'll be some lucky girl's lovely husband some day...

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yurble
Obligatory warning: Contains completely made-up animal abuse.

My child is such a prodigy! (He does have aspies and is ADHD, but that does not mask his genius.) Why, at the age of only 2 years, he was taking the shit out of his diapers and smearing it on the walls. He's so artistic! After that he started a phase where he banged on the cooking pots for 12 hours straight a day, and I was sure he was going to be a little drummer. Then at the age of five he managed to set the house on fire, which is really early compared to when most pyromaniacs get started! I was convinced he'd become a fireman. Shortly after that, he dropped the cat out of his bedroom window, to see if she'd land on her feet (she did, but she hasn't come back home since, which is probably just as well because I couldn't stand the way she screeched when David pulled her tail). My son, the scientist! Then, when he was eight and his sister was born, I had to have her co-sleep with me because we caught him sneaking into her room a few times and putting a pillow over her face. He's so precocious, lol! My neighbor recently came over to complain that they'd found their dog staked out in the lawn. I said, "What are you going to do? He's a prodigy. He's probably going to be a vet some day!" Just yesterday he told me he hated me, which made me a little sad, and then he said he was going to bash my head in with a hammer and cut me up with a saw. Using a hammer and saw already, at the age of just 12! Such a little handyman. He'll be some lucky girl's lovely husband some day...

too funny!

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Miss_Hannigan
If by "prodigy" you mean "shaved ape who flings crap" you've got a real gifted offspring.

We are so much better and smarter than these clueless twatmuffins.

I split my sides laughing while reading a section on a moo forum once that was entitled, "Is My Chyld Gifted?". You can not BELIEVE some of the common, obvious, average, mundane, every day things that baybees and small kyds do that moomares THINK makes their snowflakes "gifted" or a potential MENSA candidate. It's been awhile since I came across it, but below are a few that I remember:


1)Remarklee, age 9 months, follows me around the room wherever I go with his eyes! It's like he KNOWS who I am and that I am moving about! Is it "normal" for baybees to do this?
2)I knew the minute that Smartalina was born that she was a "gifted" child because she looked right at me when I spoke as if she had remembered my voice from my talking to her when she was in my tummy!
3)Stinkford is "gifted", I have no doubt! Already, at 23 months he can watch a Barney video and imitate what Barney says and does! It's like he has this uncanny ability to mimic and remember what he sees!
4)Our Snotford is ammmaaaaaaaaaazzzing because at 28 months, he can point directly at our street on a city map! He has done this repeatedly now with NO mistakes at LEAST 20 times in the last week! We have it on video, in case no one believes us!
5)Shitlee is the smartest baybee I have ever known! He is only 27 months old and he already understands where his juicy juice is kept! All I have to do is walk TOWARDS the refrigerator and he says, "MAMA JOO JOO!" with his hands outstretched!
6)My DumbLyn, age 42 months. is BY FAR the most intelligent chyld I have ever known. Just the other day she asked me about baybees and she understands where they come from! She knows that my belly is big because her little sister is in there when most kyds her age would just think that I was fat!
7)My Shitford is only 34 months old and he can separate his leggos into the correct colors and he puts them in color coordinated stacks!
8)My little Myrakul is a musical genius, but it runs in my famblee and I teach piano lessons at home. She is only just turned 4 years old and she can already play "Mary Had a Little Lamb" on her small piano! She also knows all of the words and the tunes to EVERY childrens' Christmas Carol!
9)My little Tubbetta knows the difference between fruit and candy already and she's not even 4 years old until next month! If I hold up an apple in one hand and a candy bar in the other, for example, she will yell out, "I WANNA CANDLEE BAWR MAWMMY!!!!!!!" It's soooooooooooo cute. Most kyds these days don't seem to know the difference in foods and will just eat whatever their moms give them, but NOT my Tubbetta!
10)My baybee is only 16 months old and he can ALREADY point to and name his nose, eyes, lips, and, this is embarassing ladies, but he knows where his PENIS is, but he calls it a "pee pee"! Do they even KNOW what their penis is at this age? Mine does and he knows what it's for too!





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If YOU are the "exception" to what I am saying, then why does my commentary bother you so much?
I don't hate your kids, I HATE YOU!

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Cambion
- OMG, what do you do when your toddler begs for a new toy and you can't' afford to? How's about tell him NO, you jelly-spine! http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=1265962

Notice the comment immediately following?

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She might be at a good age to start a small allowance, which she can save up until she can afford to get something like that.

It's a he, dumbbell.

Normally I would have a soft spot for a kid who wants a plane (or a spaceship) but the "he's been fixating lately" tips us off that "redirecting" Moo is only one missing gyroscope away from a tail spin.

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Cambion
Four-year-old brat bites toddler in the face, shows no remorse and tells her Moo that she's being a "bad mommy." Duh wants desperately to beat the kid's ass, but Moo "knows it won't help matters." Someone suggests the advice of a professional non-disciplinarian who suggests that when kyds get violent and bitey, you make them sit. Whoo-friggin-hoo. Yeah, because sittin' will make her real scared. http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=1267351

larious Cambion, your description knocked me on my ass!

Hehehe. Glad I could make you giggle. I'll be here all week.

It amazes me how much more work these women in the non-discipline forum make for themselves...taking hours to talk to their20-month-old about his feelings and why what he did was 'unacceptable' and what the better solution would have been, all while the kid grins ear to ear...not because he understands, but probably because he just shit his pants. They all, I think, just want to be in a cute little breeder clique...but if you read what these women say as far as how nuts their brats' behavior makes them, you can almost feel the desire oozing from their words. The desire to absolutely wail their kids until they're bleeding from their asses, but they won't.

They are fucking submissive masochists, and Junior/Princess is the screaming dominatrix with the metaphorical whip...ever notice how many GD kids scream, hit, spit at people, kick their pregnant mothers, slap their parents in the face, or beat their parents hard enough to draw blood? Those kids are in charge, they know it, and they like it. And Mommy likes being the victim, the punching bag, and the uke. It's a totally mutual relationship. But Mommies also have a need to be martyrs, so rather than put an end to their brats' behavior because they are the adults, they take it up the ass like good slaves and then bitch about it to their whipped peers.

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Cambion
Hehehe. Glad I could make you giggle. I'll be here all week.

It amazes me how much more work these women in the non-discipline forum make for themselves...taking hours to talk to their20-month-old about his feelings and why what he did was 'unacceptable' and what the better solution would have been, all while the kid grins ear to ear...not because he understands, but probably because he just shit his pants. They all, I think, just want to be in a cute little breeder clique...but if you read what these women say as far as how nuts their brats' behavior makes them, you can almost feel the desire oozing from their words. The desire to absolutely wail their kids until they're bleeding from their asses, but they won't.

They are fucking submissive masochists, and Junior/Princess is the screaming dominatrix with the metaphorical whip...ever notice how many GD kids scream, hit, spit at people, kick their pregnant mothers, slap their parents in the face, or beat their parents hard enough to draw blood? Those kids are in charge, they know it, and they like it. And Mommy likes being the victim, the punching bag, and the uke. It's a totally mutual relationship. But Mommies also have a need to be martyrs, so rather than put an end to their brats' behavior because they are the adults, they take it up the ass like good slaves and then bitch about it to their whipped peers.

I agree with all of the above! wink


I have been wondering since I started looking at these ridiculous moo forums again recently, just how long this "GD" has been popular. I'd like to see some results of this "parentng style" some 10-15 years down the road when these kyds are adults. I would be curious to see a study on how they have turned out. I already have a pretty good idea of the consequences of this nonsense, but some factual studies to back up my theories would be nice.

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If YOU are the "exception" to what I am saying, then why does my commentary bother you so much?
I don't hate your kids, I HATE YOU!