???

I am a woman who truly believes that a lady should not let a man pay for anything even if his income surpasses hers. I know some men are very chivalrous about a woman paying on a date. How does a woman go about it if she has gone out with someone twice where he paid for both meals? Does the woman give her credit card to the server at a discreet time or what??? What is the guy in insulted?

I would say that they should either ask the man out on a date (thusly making it "hers") and do all the paying (oh, please, this is on me, put that wallet away) or offer to pay at the start of the date (you've done so much, please allow me). I have a hard time imagining anyone being insulted by a free date, especially if you don't act like you expect "payment" in the end....not like you would, of course.

mmm, as a man, and i was brought up as one, i feel i am expected to pay, by society, it feels odd to not pay for stuff you know..

but what feh says is true,

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I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

Thank-you for all of your answers. I was invited out a third time so I did not do the asking...but I would still like to pay. It is weird...anytime I asked a man out, the relatiosnhip seemed doomed shortly after. I know it is okay to ask a man out but society has it ingrained how women are to play "hard to get". Yet, men play the "hard to get game", too. I feel so new at this...

I am sort of retarded about this stuff. I am very progressive and do not expect men to pay for everything even if there is an income gap like mine and most males. I don't make much in my profession. That goes for men as well since Flashlight Cops are not paid well regardless of gender. However, I am a woman who is not a user or a taker. I know what it is like to have a mate constantly take $$$$-wise.

How about going Dutch? I don't really know if people still do that, or if it's considered tacky, but then again, I'm married. I've been out of the loop for a long time...

well just recently me and faust went out, for a proper indian meal, chicken sagwala and summat else.. it cost a lot(£40) but it was fantastic food, the restaurant was great they treated you like a person, they cooked a meal specially for faust, so i bought her dinner and she bought mine.. that way we both felt like we paid, we split it down the middle regardless of the who bought what.,

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I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

My SO and I almost always split dinners and movies out. If he does end up paying for the whole thing, I will pay for the meal next time. At the movies, one of us will buy the tickets, and the other will buy the snacks, which usually works out pretty even. He tries to insist on paying for all of a valentines or anniversary dinner but if I do let him, I'll take him out for a fancy dinner later on my dime. If a person is always paying for everything I end up feeling guilty for it and unbalanced in the relationship, and that's just not fun.

If the man just picks up the check, are gifts approrpiate? I talked with a co-worker, a male, and he said it is common for a man who makes more money to automatically not want the woman to pay. I asked if it was appropriate to get him a gift. He said, "yes."

Hmmm...interesting. My SO makes more than me, but I still feel compelled to split our "nights out" 50/50 because we do that alot. When we exchange gifts, which isn't too often, his generally are a bit more expensive than mine. A caring person appreciates that it's the thought that counts. Spending time picking out the perfect $50 item that reflects the depth of your feelings and/or is compatable with their interests and passions should be just as appreciated as a $100 item. At least that's how I think of it. I simply can not afford to pay too much more, and he knows that.

Same, here, on the gift thing. DH makes a lot more than I do (had to take a shit job, until something better comes along). I don't want him buying me expensive things, because ultimately, we're both paying for it. Anyway, I'd rather have a DVD, than something I can only use on special occasions, like jewelry. My favorite thing from him is dessert, anyway. He's a pastry chef...

I am the same way, Feh. I just am not used to a man picking up the tab. This has not been done for me in a long, long time. I've been the "wallet" in a past marriage & it did not feel good. I also am not the young thing I once was and am very independent even though I do not make a lot at my job. Being new at this again, I do truly feel "socially retarded". I also did not expect that some men still want to pay 100% especially if they make more.

I never looked at men as "wallets" or felt entitled for one to pay for me because of gender or income. Some people think I am too "modern". I do not know how to act about this stuff! I did get my friend a gift, something that is his interest as well as mine. I wanted to buy a present as a way to say "thank-you" for a nice evening as well as lunches out...but for the item to be meaningful rather than something that would just sit on a shelf.

I think problems happen when folks start thinking "you've paid xx amount, I've got to do the same next time" or keep tallies of how much they spend vs. how much their partner spends and either expects it to be totally equal, or expects their partner to foot the bill for everything. A good relationship is a partnership of trust and respect. A partner who insists on paying for everything might actually be controlling, a partner who pays for nothing might be end up being perceived as just using the person for material gain. Even if my partner was so well off where I didn't have to work, I don't think I'd be comfortable being in a position where he would pay for everything, because it just doesn't seem right to me. You should act in a way that is natural to you, because in the end, you will end up acting in your natural manner, and the relationship may as well start off with honesty and realness.

I know I tend to suffer that attitude you mention, Feh, thinking that I must give exactly what it given to me. I don't have the money to give a gift that costs the same that was spent on me but I try to make it as nice as possible. I am really insecure about this sort of stuff. I don't really know how to accept anything from a man yet I know of so many women who will just take, take, take. Is something wrong with me?

Nope, there is nothing wrong with you...I was in your same boat for many years. I think it's just a matter of trusting that if a person truely likes you, then it is YOU they want. They don't care if you can buy them anything more than a candy bar, they'd just rather have YOU with your sparkling wit, clever mind and charming face. From what I've seen and experienced, expensive bullshit can be bought by anyone for any reason, and should never be taken as the end-all sign of a person's love, respect or fidelity. I'm sure we all know divorced women with multi-thousand dollar wedding rings, or couples who live in beautiful, show-homes filled to the gills with expensive items who simply have grown to hate each other.

It is difficult to detach yourself from using things as expressions of love, because advertising teaches us from day one that Money=Love. The more you spend on someone the more you must love them. 3 months salary for that ring (it will seal the deal)! A diamond is the ultimate symbol of love (a ring makes it all perminant)! Buy your loved one expensive jewlery to show them how much you care (whether or not they like jewlery)! Spend spend spend to show the world you love someone or someone loves you!

Since we moved into our own apartment, my gift giving and dinners out to my S.O. are in serious decline. We used to have pretty cheap rent because we had roommates, so I had an expendible income. Now our rent is more expensive without the roommates, but I can walk around without my pants on (I don't like to wear pants at home for some reason) and my S.O. likes the freedom we have to do what we want, where we want as loudly as we're comfortable with. I can't take him out for a $100 meal for his birthday anymore, but I can take the afternoon off and spend it making one of his favorite meals. I did save up to get him a boxed set of CD's I knew he wanted, and would never buy for himself. I still felt weird just giving him one present as I used to buy him a whole bunch of stuff for gift giving occasions. On the other hand, I felt pretty comfortable doing this because I know that he enjoys the time we spend together and would rather have me around than a pile of stuff.

Thank-you for your good words and advice, Feh. This is why I now go soooo slowly and have no expectations in relationships. I am no longer into the "in love" thing. But...I still have to work on the "who pays" issue...

Go as slow as you need to. Barring any unexpected events, time is always on your side...literally and figuratively.

Paying isn't about love so much as respect, I think. Friends who make more than I who will very often buy me drinks when we're out, or pay for a meal once in a while (usually around my birthday) even though we usually go dutch. I try to reciprocate, but can never match their monitary generosity. I make them stuff, pet sit for free, make mix cd's, make sure they get the real nice pictures of their pets and loved ones (I take alot of pictures) and do whatever I feel will let them know how much I value their friendship. Again, I think for most people who care about eachother in any way, its about the time spent together and resultant memories, as opposed to the items given.

Thank-you, Feh.

You always give good advice on these matters. I fit into the FINE category when it comes to relationships: f*cked-up, insecure, neurotic, and eccentric. Money is an issue with me because I cannot return gifts in the same manner but it should not be & due to having been the "wallet" in a recent marriage and being supported in another marriage but made to feel like a nobody. I'm still working on myself, though.

You are 100% correct about women with the fancy multi-stone engagement & wedding ring sets who are with a man who has grown to hate them. The friend I mentioned with the overseas wife is in the same boat: wifey lives better than she did in Thailand but complains of how other Thai women have better husbands...meaning fancier homes and more money & material goodies even though SHE has a lovely home and a life that the man pays for since she does not work.

The media always brings out the more money spent ='s more love around X-mas and Valentine's Day with the advertisements for diamond rings and other expensive jewelry. I like the manner in how you give gifts for loved ones. For me, the gift of someone's time or a photo means more than something purchased from the mall.

And...yes...I am still going slowly with my friend...

May I suggest that you offer/insist in at least picking up the tip? I've done that before and it is usually appreciated.

Be careful about the guy that likes that you always want to pay. If he wasn't already married to a green-card seeking russian MOB, I'd say you might end up with my BROTHER (who has always REFUSED to pay for dinner. And he's no prize, really). I should say, though, that the MOB is a sweetheart, and if I never speak to my blood-brother again, at least I'll get a cool new sister out of the deal.

Also, when I dated this one guy and we went to Killington for several days, I would pick up the lunch tab, and he'd get the tip, then for dinner, he'd get the check and I'd pay the tip. It worked out well and hey! We still talk and are friends to boot! He even plays video games with my hubby on occasion! (Talk about weird, seeing your DH and your old flame sitting side by side killing aliens in Halo.)

Sorry to join this discussion so late, but Miss Manners says that the lady should reciprocate by "suddenly coming up with" theater tickets or some such thing. She should basically treat the guy to a night out, but not let on that she paid for the things in advance.

Sounds old-fashioned to me, but that's etiquette according to her.

Thank-you for the Miss Manners tip, CF Scorpio. That makes perfect sense to me. My mom is a server and hates it when people at one of her tables are literally fighting each other over the check. I am glad you joined the discussion regardless of how much time it has been posted.

Feh, thank-you again for all of your wise words on this topic. I decided not to see this fellow anymore. I felt very uneasy and the issue of communication was not there. I would not hear from him for a week or so and then ---bam--- suddenly, he wanted to see me. This man is no kid as he is 50 but it is the issue of non-interest once he felt he "had" someone. I am glad I ended it after a couple of months rather than continue on hoping for change. I don't do that thing at all. I now realise the $$$ issue was more than me not having the same income but this other stuff as well. Thanks for listening...