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Just in case you are thinking about having kids... (Long)

Posted by Techie 
Just in case you are thinking about having kids... (Long)
December 25, 2007
I do not know who wrote this, but I found it here:
http://www.geocities.com/zpg1957/whynokids.htm

Good reasons not to have children:

1. There is no good reason to: Every reason for having children falls into two categories: grossly selfish or brainless.

a. About half of parents, when asked why they had children say “I don’t know.” In other words, they have undertaken a life-altering action of enormous magnitude, without sparing a single thought about it.

b. Those who have thought about why they had children cannot give a single reason that does not start with the words “I want….” Clearly to those who have thought about it, having children is entirely about filling their own needs, and the well-being of the children and of the rest of the occupants of the planet are never considered.

c. The chestnuts generally presented as reasons for having children (Your child may cure cancer!...Who will take care of you when you’re old!) are invariably stupid, selfish and unrealistic.

2. There are enough people, and more, on the planet already.

a. Every human decreases the already strained land, water and mineral resources available to other humans.

b. Every human damages and decreases the habitat available to other organisms.

c. Every human increases pollution.

d. Every human increases the intractability of the problems caused by overpopulation.

e. Children are major vectors of disease.

f. Every human adds to the disastrous changes in the planetary environment that are increasing the frequency and severity of natural disasters, and that are increasing the severity of the effects of natural disasters.

g. Every human helps to use up the limited fossil fuels that allow us to have six and a half billion people on the planet, and that power the world’s economies.

3. Your child will contribute nothing of value.

a. There are so many people already that any discovery or improvement that can be made will be.

b. Opportunities for making contributions are decreasing because of the demands placed on the social system by increasing population. Tax money goes to build infrastructure and provide support for new people, not for research or philanthropy.

c. The chances of your child making any kind of major positive contribution to society are extremely slim - near to zero. Their chances of their making a major negative contribution are much greater. Three American-born scientists won 2003 Nobel prizes. That year around 100,000 Americans were sentenced to prison or probation.

d. When you have children, you breed your own competition for your job and increase the downward pressure on your own wages.

e. Opportunities for making contributions are decreasing because of the demands placed on rapidly vanishing energy and material resources by the exploding human population.

4. You cannot reverse the decision to have a child, and your responsibility may never end.

a. You cannot give up a child for adoption without the consent of the other parent. If they decide to keep the child, you will pay child support.

b. Your children can have children, without your consent, and you can be forced to support those children as well.

c. If you help to support a stepchild, you can be forced into ongoing support for that child.

d. If your child is disabled, you will support it for the rest of its life.

e. Economic hardships, coupled with early childbearing and irresponsibility send many adult children back to their parent's homes.

f. Incarceration, drug addiction and death of their children leave many people raising their grandchildren.

5. Children are financially destructive.

a. You will probably have no discretionary money left over once you are through paying for what your children must have, so you will work very hard and get to enjoy none of what you earn.

b. You will have a one in seven chance of going bankrupt because of the financial demands imposed by your children.

c. You will almost certainly be unable to save adequately for your own retirement. Early retirement is out of the question. Many parents work into their seventies and their numbers are increasing.

d. The financial demands of a sick or disabled child are crushing, and there is no way to ensure that you will not experience these. It is estimated that it costs around one million dollars to care for a disabled child over its lifetime.

e. Career advancement and earnings are decreased by children, particularly for the parent that does most of the childcare. Most of the gap between women and men in earnings is the "mommy tax" - the smaller amounts women earn because they can't travel, work late or work at home, because they're always exhausted and because they drop out of the work force. According to the Longitudinal Survey of Youth, Childless women earn 98% of what childless men earn. Women with children earn 73% of what men earn.

f. Lessened lifetime earnings means less retirement income for the parent responsible for most of the childcare. In the case of divorce, she may find it impossible to catch up.

g. Divorce of the parents frequently results in poverty for the parent responsible for most of the childcare and sometimes for both parents.

h. You have financial liability for the misdeeds of your teenage children, over whom you may have no control. You may also have to pay restitution in the case that your child engages in criminal conduct and even a reward to whomever turned in your child. Insurance rarely covers the financial consequences of willful or negligent criminal acts.

i. Children are destructive, and no one but you will pay for what they destroy. If your child burns down the house, you may lose your biggest investment because of your own child's bad behavior.

j. You will end up spending everything you make just to pay for your family’s needs, living paycheck to paycheck. This is an extremely expensive way to manage money.

k. When the expenses of the children outstrip your income, you will go into enormous debt for the toys and clothes, the medical care, the mini-van or SUV, and the house in the “right” neighborhood. This is the most expensive possible way to manage your money, will waste huge amounts of your earnings and will guarantee that you never have financial independence.

l. The increase in the cost of a college education has greatly outstripped inflation. A larger and larger portion of your income will be gobbled up by the cost of putting your child through college. If you cannot afford to educate your child, it will be substantially more difficult for that child to support itself.

m. You will be unable to save for emergencies, leaving you in a consistently terrifying condition of economic helplessness.

n. If you suffer economic reverses such as a job loss or a serious illness the ongoing nature of the expense of children will deplete your lesser savings much faster. Any reverse will immediately become a crisis.

6. You will be pressured to ignore your own needs in favor of catering to your child's wants.

a. Accepted child-rearing practice severely limits the ability of parents to discipline children, so if you want to raise well-behaved, self-reliant children who do not constantly demand entertainment from you, you will do so against constant social, and perhaps even legal, pressure to do otherwise.

b. Schools are unable to discipline children, so your children will be exposed to an environment in which they will learn to behave in ways you do not want them to. Nearly 8 in 10 teachers, according to the 2004 Public Agenda report, said their students were quick to remind them that they had rights or that their parents could sue if they were too harshly disciplined. More than half said they ended up being soft on discipline "because they can't count on parents or schools to support them." (NYT, 27Nov05)

c. Many of your children's friend's parents will be permissive, exposing your children to a disciplinary environment that they will pressure you to emulate.

d. Your children will be exposed to constant marketing for things you do not want them to have, but for which they will beg incessantly and which you will find it impossible to always deny them.

7. You are unprepared for the task of having and raising children.

a. There is no way to know if you will be able to do a good job of raising children until it is too late to back out of it.

b. It is common for people to be unequal to the task. News reports and the experiences of people around you demonstrate that it is extremely difficult to have enough emotional, physical and financial resources to raise children well.

c. You will be consistently and constantly lied to by everyone about the demands and rewards of having children: The demands will be minimized and the rewards greatly exaggerated. Even if your situation clearly contraindicates children, most people will deny or minimize your problems and urge you to reproduce anyway. As a result, you will have no good information on what the task requires.

d. People who complain of their own parents’ failures almost always repeat them themselves, simply because they have no other model of parenting. Unless your own parents were perfect, you don’t have the tools to do a good job yourself.

8. Having and raising children is emotionally debilitating.

a. Bearing children may activate mental illnesses in the mother, or may severely worsen an existing mild mental illness. Mothers of young children have worse mental health than any other demographic group. Newsweek magazine reports that 30% of mothers of young children suffer from depression.

b. Otherwise mentally healthy people will suffer ongoing worry about their children.

c. Mothers, particularly will suffer from a constant sense of guilt and inadequacy, compounded by social blame. They will feel ghastly about everything that happens to their children, whether it was within their power to control or not.

d. Sleep deprivation can place parents in a state where they no longer feel sane, where they have tremendous fits of rage, and where they may harm their children, their partners or themselves.

e. Women with children often become neurotically fearful, worrying about every little thing and emotionally smothering their children because of their endless anxiety.

f. 70% of women suffer from post-partum depression, which may merely make the first two weeks of a child’s life utter hell for the mother, or may result in permanent psychotic impairment. At best this is a miserable start to what is, peculiarly, universally presented as a glorious experience. At worst it can destroy lives in the ugliest possible way.

g. Women who have had a baby often become incapable of thinking through the consequences of having more babies. They’ll deliberately get pregnant when they are unemployed, when their houses are in foreclosure or when they’re facing bankruptcy. Nothing matters to them anymore except breeding. Similarly they’ll breed repeatedly with men who are irresponsible, drug-addicted, mentally ill and violent, then disclaim any responsibility for the horrendous consequences because nothing mattered any more except their irrational drive to breed. Like all mental diseases, this baby-rabidity leaves its sufferer in a terrible position where her irrational choices have ruined her life.

h. Parents in any stage of life have more symptoms of depression than the childless. “Unlike other major adult social roles in the United States, parenthood does not appear to present a mental health advantage for individuals, find sociologists Ranae J. Evenson, Vanderbilt University, and Robin W. Simon, Florida State University. Their article, “Clarifying the Relationship Between Parenthood and Depression,” appears in the December issue of the Journal of Health and Social Behavior, published by the 100-year-old American Sociological Association.” Even “empty nesters” have been found to have more symptoms of depression than the childless, contradicting conventional wisdom that the years of grandchildren and travel are the happiest and that your kids “take care of you in your old age”. Perhaps they are too often the years of emotional upheaval for their children and kids returning home, grandchildren in tow?

9. Having and raising children is physically debilitating.

a. The probability of a woman having a disabling illness is increased if she has children.

b. A woman's life expectancy is less if she has children

c. About 10% of women who have given birth suffer from permanent urinary incontinence afterwards.

d. Women who have had children may have internal damage afterwards that can cause unpleasant, painful or disgusting results. Up to 20% of women who have had an episiotomy will have permanent fecal incontinence.

e. Women who have had children are much likelier to be overweight or obese. A University of Alabama–Birmingham study found that women retained anywhere from 11 to 20 pounds after giving birth to their first child.

f. It will be difficult or impossible for the primary caregiver to get enough exercise, particularly in the first years of the child's life.

g. Birth is extremely painful and, despite advances in modern medicine, still carries a substantial risk of death.

h. According to a study by Angelo Alonzo, an associate professor of sociology at Ohio State University doctors found that 81% of childless women were in "excellent to good" health, compared with 68% of women who had been pregnant. "Physically, having children causes wear and tear, and the stress and responsibility of having children take a toll as well."

i. Pregnancy is exhausting and miserable at best, life-threatening or disabling at worst. Many women spend months bedridden, and all suffer bloating and discomfort.

j. A woman’s body will be made less attractive by pregnancy – stretched out and marred.

k. Your children will bring home illnesses and you will constantly have the flu, stomach problems and colds as a result. This will impair your work life but in no way diminish your responsibilities at home.

10. The demands of child rearing will prevent you from enjoying many of life’s pleasures.

a. You will not be able to do anything spontaneously. You will not go to movies, go out for coffee, spend the afternoon shopping, take a bike ride, go out for a walk or read a good book.

b. Any social activity without children will have to be planned long in advance, may end up being cancelled at the last minute and will cost more because of the need for babysitting.

c. The expense and demands of children will prevent you from enjoying travel.

d. Many unusual and rewarding experiences will be closed to you. You will not join Doctors without Borders or the Peace Corps, sail around the world, trek overland across Africa or take a painting class in Florence.

e. Your social life will contract. Even other parents do not want your children around.

f. The agonizing hyper-vigilance required for at least the first 7 years of a child's life will prevent you from ever finishing a thought, sinking into your reading or relaxing for one second. You will always have one eye and one ear on the child and part of your brain will always be tracking how long it's been since you saw him and where he is. This is commonly cited as the worst feature of having responsibility for children.

g. Your tastes in food will be trumped by the macaroni and cheese, fish sticks and hotdogs (or the equivalent) your children demand. If you feed your children anything that deviates from this nutritionally and gastronomically inferior diet, they will whine, refuse to eat and sulk.

h. You will never take a vacation that you enjoy. Instead, all your vacation time will revolve around child-related activities. You will use up all your vacation leave on boring, repetitive and aggravating holiday visits to relatives and on tiresome child-centered “family vacations.”

i. You will never be able to take time off of the tasks of parenting if you are sick, exhausted or depressed. No matter how sick you are, you will take care of your children. No matter how exhausted you will not be allowed a nap. The children’s needs will always come first, and often even their whims will come before your most basic needs.

j. You will be unable to carry on an adult conversation, as your children will interrupt you to demand your attention.

k. Because you feel so guilty about your parenting, you’ll give your children the best seats and the best food and you’ll get the dregs.

l. When you go out or go on vacation, you’ll spend all your time making sure your children are enjoying themselves, getting enough to eat and having a good time, and you’ll be left with the ghastly knowledge that everyone else is living while you’re missing out.

m. You will lose your friends because the constant attention and catering that must constantly be lavished on a child makes it impossible to spend any time with them doing anything other than entertaining your child.

n. You never get a vacation from your children, especially when they are young. Few people have parents willing to babysit their 3 year old for as little as a weekend, much less the weeks needed to genuinely recharge.

o. You will probably have to curtail or eliminate your hobbies because you will no longer have the time or the money required to pursue them or because your children will be endangered by the materials you need for your hobbies.

p. You will lose your ability to have interesting adult conversations. All your discussions will center around the bodily functions and misbehaviors of children – all things of no interest, no novelty and no importance to anyone but you.

11. Children will destroy any quality of life you have left.

a. You will suffer through many years of sleep deprivation, with serious effects on your happiness and health.

b. Your children will scream, cry and yell constantly when they are young, stressing your patience and destroying your peace with their noise. As teenagers they will blast music (or worse, make it) with the same effect.

c. Your children will embarrass you in public regularly.

d. You will be blamed and ostracized by those negatively affected by your child's bad public behavior.

e. Being around children for longer than short periods of time is excruciatingly boring and grinding. Their pleasures are uninteresting to adults, and they constantly, tediously demand all their parents' attention at all times.

f. You will find yourself hating your children at times, perhaps all the time, and will despise yourself for feeling that way.

g. You will feel a constant sense of entrapment. Freedom is the first thing to go when children are born.

h. You will spend huge amounts of time in routine, unrewarding, mindless tasks - laundry, housecleaning, child care.

i. Your logistics will enormously expand. You will have to dedicate a very large amount of time and focus to once-trivial activities such as meal planning, appointment planning, and transportation.

j. Teenagers are typically abusive, rude, sullen and uncontrollable; living with them is consistently miserable.

k. You will be trapped in your job. You will not be able to just quit no matter how great the provocation.

l. If you are someone who enjoys a clutter-free, orderly life, you will find that you are overwhelmed with clutter and mess, as so many objects come with children, and as they refuse to keep their own possessions neat and tidy.

m. You will lose your sense of identity, regardless of how hard-won it is.

n. You will have no privacy and will ache for a few moments by yourself.

o. Your possessions will be used by your children and not put back, so you can never find things you need.

p. Things you treasure will be destroyed or lost by your children.

q. Most of the tasks you perform will be never-ending. You will chase after children constantly, cleaning up the things they spill, track in, drop and break, cooking and cleaning up endless meals and never feeling any sense of finality or accomplishment.

r. You will be constantly exposed to aggravating, mindless child-oriented entertainment such as cartoons, kiddie videos and music.

s. Modern parents are forced to provide constant entertainment for their children – endlessly playing games, accompanying them to any place the children want to go, answering questions and simply providing attention. Any deviation from this constant child catering will be severely criticized by other parents.

t. Your child will deliberately sabotage your relationships with other adults and even with their siblings by being most demanding when you are trying to pay attention to someone else. It’s axiomatic that a child will need something the minute you start talking on the phone.

u. A study by showed that women will tell researchers that nothing is as “rewarding” as taking care of their children, but that when a Day Reconstruction method of studying the pleasures of daily activities was used, mothers actually dislike childcare and find it even less pleasurable than doing housework. It is far less pleasurable to them than watching TV.

v. You will be forced into nagging. Children have to be nagged endlessly to get them to do tasks that absolutely MUST be done, and there is no way around having to nag them. You will hate doing it and hate listening to yourself nag.

w. You will be unable to make and execute plans, because children introduce so much chaos into their environment. Your once-orderly life will become frustratingly disorganized.

x. Your children will fight constantly, about everything, and demand that you referee these fights.

12. Children are ruinously hard on marriage.

a. Your sex life will be devastated by a combination of exhaustion, hormonal changes in the mother, and interruptions by children.

b. Children are skilled at pitting parents against each other.

c. Nearly all parents fight about child-raising practices. John Gottman at University of Washington estimates parents have eight times as many arguments after children are born.

d. The husbands of stay-at-home-mothers will feel burdened, terrified and overwhelmed by the responsibility of being the sole provider, and will probably deeply resent the woman who put them in that position..

e. The extreme demands of a difficult or disabled child will typically end its parents marriage, particularly if one parent didn't want children, but gave in. The probability that the parents of a disabled child will divorce are around 80%. Even aborting a clearly defective fetus often splits up the parents, who may blame each other for the problem.

f. The pleasures of marriage, such as going out, taking walks, and sleeping in, are disrupted or destroyed for many years by children.

g. The sexual equality possible prior to the arrival of children will almost always disappear, leaving the mother with final responsibility for everything, particularly the most disgusting, tedious and unpleasant tasks.

h. Mothers, particularly those who work, profoundly resent their husbands' failure to share childcare. Their anger is never-ending, and they whine and nag.

i. Husbands feel guilty at their own failure to do their share and angry at their wives for nagging them about it.

j. The most likely time for a husband to begin having affairs is when his wife is pregnant.

k. The most likely time for a batterer to begin beating his wife is when she is first pregnant, because he understands that she is now dependent on him.

l. Any problems that already existed in the relationship, including those with in-laws, will almost certainly be seriously exacerbated by the birth of the child.

m. Parents will cease to see each other as lovers, and view each other instead as co-parents, destroying the romance of marriage.

n. Parents are so inundated with childcare responsibilities that they can no longer provide the support that is one of the best features of marriage. The husband of a SAHM can’t express his insecurities about his work, his lack of enthusiasm about having to work for at least the next 30 years, or any other weakness, lest it provoke an angry and fear-laden reaction from his dependent wife.

o. Studies consistently show that marriages are happiest before the first child is born and after the last child leaves home. This is consistent with studies that show that childless marriages are the happiest of all.

13. Having children forces you into meeting social expectations you may despise.

a. Even the most honest person will find himself lying about the rewards of raising children.

b. You will almost certainly deliver your children into the kind of indentured servitude you hate in your own work.

c. Your children will demand material goods you know are not good for them, for society or for the planet, and you will find it impossible to always refuse.

d. You will find yourself attending religious services you do not believe in, participating in social practices you consider wrong, and engaging in activities you consider damaging, because your children insist on it.

e. You will associate with people you may dislike or despise because they are part of your child's life. This may include your parents or in-laws, who you will religiously visit on holidays, no matter how painful these visits are, because your children have a right to know their relatives.

f. Feminist women will find themselves giving up rewarding careers to become household drudges dependent on husbands, thus modeling this kind of subservience to their daughters.

g. You will be forced to put up with the friends of your children and with the parents of those friends. These may be people who disgust you or frighten you, whose values you despise, and with whom you would never otherwise associate.

14. It can go horribly wrong in a way that will completely ruin your and your child's life forever.

a. Physicians for Social Responsibility estimate that 14% of children will have a disability apparent by the beginning of their teenage years. Three percent of children will have a major, life-destroying birth defect. Parents of such children will be further insulted by social pressure to present their experience caring for these children as being as delightful as a trip to Holland.

b. An additional 2% will become psychotic as teens or young adults.

c. A large number will become drug, alcohol or gambling addicted. Some of these will ruin their own lives and those of others with their behavior. You will suffer an endless agony of guilt, fear, financial loss and public humiliation as the result of behavior you cannot control.

d. Some will die, or worse, kill themselves, producing ongoing guilt and anguish in their families.

e. At least 5% will suffer severe, ongoing anxiety or depression, causing serious worry and guilt in their parents.

f. Many will behave extremely irresponsibly, driving recklessly, having children out of wedlock, getting fired from jobs, causing their parents distress and incurring financial liability.

g. Some will become criminals, shaming their families, incurring expenses for their legal representation and for liability, and, commonly also victimizing their families.

h. Some will become extremely ill, stressing their families financially and emotionally.

i. Children attract predators and reduce the ability of their parents to defend themselves. If you have children, you are more likely to become the victim of predatory criminals, some of whom will victimize you in order to get to your children.

j. If you have children, predators can use those children to get to you, and you will do whatever the criminal wants in order to save your child.

15. Your children will experience a decreasing quality of life compared to yours.

a. Greenhouse warming is occurring; its long-term effects are uncertain, but so far major disruption of ecosystems and increasingly severe weather events are already underway. Sea level rise is likely, and a host of other, unpredictable and disastrous effects will certainly occur. The Arctic ice pack will vanish “within the lifetime of a child born today” according to the scientists studying it, and the consequence will be unprecedented changes in climate that dwarf the changes we are already experiencing.

b. Your children will never see the kind of wild lands or enjoy the uncrowded recreation opportunities you have.

c. Good jobs are disappearing, the result of corporatization, decreasing support of scientific endeavors and universities, and "offshoring." The decrease in value of American labor is ongoing. Your children will probably work at boring, low-paid jobs their entire lives, and be unable to retire.

d. Good homes are becoming unaffordable. In heavily populated areas your children will probably never be able to afford more than a 2-bedroom condo. The majority of areas within a short commute of good job opportunities now fall into this category.

e. Areas where there are jobs are becoming increasingly crowded. Your children will never know a time when highways are not crowded and rush hour traffic doesn't crawl; they will never know a time when they don’t circle parking lots looking for parking, and when public amenities aren't jammed with people.

f. Paradoxically, the others with whom your children will live in enforced close contact will be less civil and more likely to litigate your children than ever before.

g. Your children will live in a world where civil liberties are eroded by a combination of the fear of terrorist activity and by the placation of religious fundamentalists.

h. Your children will experience an education eroded by poor-quality teaching and by teaching philosophies dominated by "self-esteem" training and other unproven, untested psychological theories. Any teachers who demand quality work or inspire thought will be crushed or removed at the demands of the imbecilic parents of other children.

i. Your children will employ professionals whose ability to do their jobs is compromised by their own inadequate education and by fear of litigation.

j. Your children will be educated in schools where teachers spend an increasing amount of time dealing with the results of the inadequate parenting of the other children in their classes. There has been an enormous increase in children (now 10%) who are so unsocialized that they have tantrums and are violent in class, beginning in kindergarten. Because it is so difficult to deal with these children, good teachers are leaving teaching and finding other jobs, ensuring that your children's education will be compromised.

k. Your children will be living with the economic consequences of the reckless irresponsibility of the leadership of the U.S., in generating horrific national debt and enabling an enormous imbalance of trade. At best they will have to pay crippling taxes which will erode both the economy and their quality of life. At worst they will deal with economic collapse.

l. Increases in human population mean that people are now building homes and businesses in marginal areas avoided by previous generations. This means your children will be much more likely to be victims of natural disasters than were past generations. It is estimated that the 30m waves generated by the explosion of the volcano Krakatau in 1883 probably killed around thirty thousand people. The 10m waves generated by the earthquake of 26 December 2004 killed about five times as many. The difference was entirely the result of people living in disaster prone areas as the result of overpopulation.

m. Increases in human population have changed the environment in a way that makes it much more likely that natural disasters will occur and will affect humans. The loss of mangrove forests in Indonesia due to human activity contributed to the loss of life in the tsunami of 26 December 2004. Global warming ensures that more energy is available to great storms, which have already become measurably more frequent and more severe.

n. Fossil fuel production per capita peaked in the 1970s, and world petroleum production is peaking now. Your children will live on the downside of an economy based on cheap, easily accessible fossil fuel energy. It is hard to predict the results, but they will certainly include a smaller choice of goods, economic hardship and a generally lower quality of life.

o. Your children will be surrounded by children who are spoiled, entitled and vicious. These children are much more likely to bully or hurt your child than the children of past generations were, and their parents will defend them vigorously no matter how appallingly they behave, so you will have no recourse. You may have to homeschool your child or pay for private school to get them away from other children.

16. You will be rewarded with abuse.

a. Anything that goes wrong with your child, from not feeling good about himself to committing major crimes, will be blamed on you.

b. Your child is more likely to abuse your for the inadequacy of your parenting than to thank you for your sacrifices and efforts.

c. Your child will demean you and speak ill of you to others. Listen to what the people you know say about their parents. Even adults who believe they received good parenting are ruthlessly critical of their parents' faults.

d. Your child will probably live far away from you, and may avoid you and make no effort to see you or communicate with you.

e. Your child may communicate with you only in angry and impatient tones.

f. Your child is very unlikely to care for you in your old age; more likely he will install you in a nursing home and rarely visit. A study by the University of Florida showed that elderly people without children are as happy and suffer no more loneliness than those with children.

g. Your child will almost certainly disappoint and shame you in many ways. Fundamentalist parents will have gay and atheist children, liberals will raise conservatives, honest people will have to confess that their youngest son is in prison. People who prided themselves on their excellent parenting will raise children who despise, slander and avoid them.

h. Instead of taking care of you, your child may defraud and abuse you in your old age. Because you have spent all your money on your children, you won’t have the means to avoid the hellish nursing homes they’ll want to pack you off to.

i. Your child will likely form relationships with people you dislike and of whom you disapprove. Your child is likely to defend these people against you, and may allow them to cut off contact with you, so you never see your child or grandchildren.

17. You will turn into someone you don't want to be.

a. Lying and envious: You will lie about the reality of child-raising to others in order to get them to have children so you need not be envious of their freedom anymore.

b. Rude and inconsiderate: You will rudely barge into line, crassly bring children to places they don't belong, subject others to your children's bad behavior in public, subject others to disgusting sights and smells, leave trash around and justify it by claiming you deserve special consideration because you have children.

c. Demanding and whiny: You will whine for a bigger share of public money because of the difficulty of being a parent. You will complain when others don’t assume your responsibilities and financially support your choice to be a parent by providing gifts, money or services.

d. Greedy: If your children grow up and become self-supporting, you will complain about having to support the children of others, now that you are no longer the primary beneficiary of public money.

e. Selfish and irresponsible: You may produce more children than you know you can reasonably support because you enjoy the hormonal rush of childbirth, because you are too lazy to use birth control or because you want to entrap or control a partner.

f. Manipulative and needy: You will manipulate and pressure your children to give you attention they obviously do not want to.

g. Blinded: You will become expert at denial, against all evidence refusing to believe that your children are engaging in risky sexual behavior, using drugs or engaging in criminal activity.

h. Self-deluding: You will tell yourself that your poor parenting is actually adequate: that children are "resilient" and will easily get over the pain of your divorce; that you give your kids "quality time" when you actually spend almost no time with them; that your kids "just love" their brothers and sisters when you force them to do the childcare that you don't want to do; that "he'll love it when it comes" when you foist a child on an unwilling partner, that "You love your children very much and would NEVER do anything to hurt them" when a jury has found otherwise.

i. Defensive: You will attack anyone who does not praise and reward you for parenting your children, conveniently forgetting that having children was a choice you made to fulfill your own needs, and that you indignantly denied anyone else a say in this choice.

j. Child-hating: Most parents love only their own children and dislike those of others, sometimes to the point of injuring or killing the children of others as boyfriends and step-parents do to the children of previous relationships.

k. Self-absorbed: Most parents would not think of adopting a child, wanting only to raise their own biological children, and many oppose the idea of anyone close to them adopting.

l. Criminal: A young child is far more likely to be killed, kidnapped, beaten or sexually abused by his own parents than by any other person.

m. Sadistic: Parental resentment of the sacrifices they make for their children often expresses itself in subtle cruelties such as verbal needling and terrorizing perpetrated on those children. Nearly all parents do this.

n. Contemptible: In your zeal to exculpate yourself for your own failings as a parent, you will defend the indefensible conduct of other parents. Saying "She really loves you very much," "It's hard for parents nowadays," "She would never do anything to hurt you" or "Your father has suffered enough" to the victim of abuse or neglect is completely contemptible, and yet nearly all parents do this.

o. Judgmental: Even though you will have been subjected to and have resented the constant harsh judgments of others about your own child-raising choices, you will not scruple to pass equally harsh judgment on others for their own child-raising choices. Paradoxically, you will most harshly judge those who have escaped the immediacy of your censure by choosing not to have children.

p. Spineless: Those who have children can't afford to talk back to the powerful, because they've created their own hostages. That's why political activism is dominantly the job of the young - they're childless.

q. Moronic: You will persecute intelligent and original teachers because your child might hear something that conflicts with your own opinions or values, or which makes you feel inadequate.

r. Destructive: You will knowingly add to the problems of the planet by having additional children, even though you know nothing else contributes so enormously to pollution, loss of habitat and human misery.

s. Filthy: You will leave shit-laden diapers under plane seats, on park benches and in parking lots; you will take a child with diarrhea into a public pool or a child with a respiratory illness onto an airplane to sicken others, you will dump trash on the ground and walk away from it, you will leave repellent messes to sit in your house because you are so overwhelmed by the demands of child-raising.

t. Self-Centered: You will expect your children to fulfill the dreams and wishes you were too lazy, too stupid, or too ineffectual to fulfill for yourself. When they do not, you will be filled with anger and resentment.

u. Inconsistent: You will say you sure understand why Andrea Yates would kill her kids, and five minutes later will be extolling the joys of child-rearing to any non-childed person who will listen, and you will see no contradiction in this.

v. Moribund: Because you are trapped in the socially acceptable choice you have made, anything subversive, original or revolutionary will be incomprehensible to you. As a subscriber to the status quo, you will become one of its most ardent defenders. The hippies who protested the Vietnam war in the 1970s are driving their teens around in Humvees today.

w. Fatuous: You will declare to all who will listen that your child is special, a “crystal child,” possessed of supernatural powers of perception, an “indigo child” whose destructive behavior merits extra attention and praise rather than treatment and correction. You will exclaim that your child’s future is “so bright” you can hardly believe you produced this wondrous creature. All this self-aggrandizement and delusional thinking will demonstrate only your own lack of intelligence and common sense.

x. Ignorant: Your life will revolve around potty-training, baby-talk and meal preparation. As a consequence of this you will have no time to be informed, to think, or to discuss complex topics.

y. Irrational: You will make emotion-driven decisions without critically examining your own motives and the consequences of the decisions. Of course, the most irrational of these decisions will be the decision to have a child. You will then whine about the results of your decisions, and will get angry at anyone who points out that you could have foreseen these consequences by thinking prior to acting.

z. Hypocritical: You will mouth politically correct pieties about homosexuals and people of other races, but when your own child turns out to be gay or wants to marry someone of another race, you will not accept it.

A. Shallow: A researcher at the University of Alberta has shown that parents are more likely to give better care and pay closer attention to good-looking children compared to unattractive ones. Dr. Andrew Harrell presented his findings recently at the Warren E. Kalbach Population Conference in Edmonton, Alberta.

B. Complicit: People who would have turned in the perpetrators of crime and abuses before they had children will look away afterwards. They’re afraid that the fallout of resistance might negatively affect their children or their ability to support their children. One parent said of a child-abuser: “I tried to challenge him a number of times, but my choice was clear - to lose what little I had or be his confidante. Aware that I had a daughter to care for and nothing to my name, I lacked the courage to walk away and silence eventually became my awful contribution to his evil.”

C. Denying: Above all, parents lie to themselves. The one characteristic that defines parents is their ability to deny. They deny the magnitude of the problems their children will experience living in a damaged and increasingly overpopulated world in the face of a flood of evidence that contradicts their wishful thinking. They deny their own children’s bad behavior, limitations and problems. The unifying trait of the parents of schizophrenic children is that they delayed getting the treatment that could have changed the course of their child’s illness. The reasoning was always that it was “just a phase” or “just the child being a teenager.” After all, don’t all teenagers see demons flying out of the mirror at them? Above all they deny their own failings as parents, often by implicitly denying that having children in the modern world is a choice.

18. Those who encourage you to have children are not people you should listen to.

a. Those who encourage you to have children will always lie to you about it. It's never a good idea to do what liars tell you to do.

b. The media drenches you with unrealistically positive images of child-bearing and rearing and consistently negative images of childlessness. It is never a good idea to do what the media wants you to do.

c. If you say you don't want children, people will tell you that you don't know what you want or that you'll change your mind. It's never a good idea to obey those who condescend to you and patronize you.

d. These same people will become hysterically upset and angry if you get sterilized without first having children. It is never a good idea to obey those who hate the idea that you can control your own fate.

e. These same people will push you to have children even if it is obvious that your and your child's lives would be miserable as a result. It is never a good idea to obey anyone monstrous enough to sacrifice your life and another's life to satisfy their own need for validation.

f. The same men who pressure their unwilling wives to have babies quickly manage to be somewhere else when the baby cries. It is never a good idea to get into a project with someone who is guaranteed to leave you in the lurch.

g. Parents always seem to “understand” why other parents abuse and kill their children. Apparently there is no difference between the emotions of abusive and non-abusive parents: they’re both sick. It’s never a good idea to do something that comes with built-in sickness.

19. Observations of the lives of people with children show how unrewarding the job of child-raising is.

a. Historically men have almost never done childcare. Since good jobs have always been allocated to men, caring for children is obviously not "the most important job in the world".

b. Despite better job opportunities for women and despite the growing numbers of men who describe themselves as "feminists", very few men stay at home with children or do significant childcare. A feminist writer described her "feminist" husband's attitude toward the care of his own children as "time-wasting, faintly demeaning and better left to babysitters."

c. The tones of voice used by people talking to children can almost always be classified as: threatening, condescending, cajoling or bored. Nothing about this kind of communication indicates that the company of children is pleasant.

d. People who have children frequently say things to their children like "I can't wait until you grow up and leave home" that indicate how little they enjoy child-raising. These same people will suddenly forget how much they wanted their children gone when it comes to pressuring the childfree to have children. Then children are an unending source of enjoyment and fun.

e. Those desperate enough to have children that they endure the horrors of fertility treatments are fixated on one bodily function at the expense of jobs, relationships and health. This is obviously not mentally healthy.

f. One out of eight 42-year old women says she regrets having had her children. This isn't a measure of those who would not have had children if they had it to do over. These are women who specifically regret having the children they have.

g. Parents claim they have "The most important job in the world," but when they employ others to do that job, they hire people without education and pay them minimum wage.

h. The words most consistently used to describe the experience of mothering - even by women who claim to love their children passionately - are "sadness" and "anger". Indeed one British woman cited in the Guardian says of her feelings about her role in the family:"about twice a year, I get so angry, I can't sleep. I'm churned up. It seems so unfair."

i. Women who work with children, such as teachers and pediatricians, are less likely to have children of their own because they have a more realistic understanding of what it requires.


k. People who had a lot of responsibility for younger siblings are much less likely to have children of their own, because they know what childcare entails. Eldest children are most likely to be childfree because eldest children end up babysitting.

l. Mothers, and to a lesser extent fathers, believe they should be extolled for doing the tasks of child-raising, even though they made the decision to have children, sometimes against all advice. That sense of martyrdom clearly indicates how horrible a task child-raising is.

m. Parents complain about their children constantly, particularly to other parents. They say things like “How did I get myself into this” and “I love my kids but…” “I was going insane staying at home with them” and “I need a vacation from my kids.” (All of these are direct quotes).

n. Women who had little education and had children at an early age without any experience of work adjust far better to having children than do women who have lived as independent adults. Obviously child rearing suffers by comparison with child-free adult life.

o. The more education people have, the fewer children they have, if they choose to have them at all.

20. Children hugely complicate the task of ending a relationship.

a. You may end up constantly chasing an ex-spouse trying to get support payments.

b. As your ex discovers his freedom and gets a new girlfriend/wife/boyfriend/husband, you will have to explain to your children why their daddy/mommy isn't very interested in them anymore.

c. Single people generally do not want to date parents. They know that step-parenting is a trap.

d. You may have to continue dealing with a vicious, manipulative, or abusive ex because he has the right to see his children. Compounding the aggravation of this is the realization that you, yourself, chose to have children with this appalling person and therefore the blame for much of the problem is yours.

e. Abusers are much more reluctant to let go if there are children.

f. You will find it far more difficult to restart your life in a new location when burdened with children. Some states will not allow a custodial parent to move out of state without the permission of the non-custodial parent, leaving the custodial parent’s life in limbo until the youngest child is 18 and giving the non-custodial parent huge control over the custodial parent’s life.

g. If you have a relationship resulting in another child, you will probably prefer that child to the pre-existing children, and may feel enormous guilt over it.

h. If you are a non-custodial parent, you will have to endure separation from your children.

i. If you are a non-custodial parent, you will probably feel guilty as you discover that you are neglecting the children of your first family for more pleasant adult interests.

j. If you remarry, the stress of children greatly increases the likelihood that you will divorce again.

k. At the time in your life when you are in the most emotional pain, you will have to deal with the negative emotions of your children as well.

l. If your spouse remarries, you may have to deal with an extremely unpleasant, possibly abusive new wife/husband.

m. You will lose control over the environment your children live in at least some of the time, because your spouse, or their new partner will probably not have the same expectations you do in terms of moral values, cleanliness or children’s responsibilities.

n. You will very likely have to endure your spouse using your child as leverage in the divorce or as a tool to punish you. Some spouses file one court case after another, wasting the other spouse’s assets on lawyer fees, tying up their time and energy and causing them constant stress. Some spouses even descend to false accusations of child abuse.

21. Children reduce the quality of the home you live in.

a. You will buy a home because the schools are good, it has lots of bedrooms, and it's in a child-ridden neighborhood instead of buying one because it's beautiful and makes you feel good.

b. You will neglect the home because your endless childcare duties don't allow time for adequate maintenance and improvements.

c. Your yard will be ugly and unpleasant. You can't have gardens, trees or flowering shrubs with kids because you don't have time to garden, you need space for kids to play in, and any plant besides grass might be a danger to your children. You will end up with a expanse of scrubby, treeless lawn.

d. That ugly lawn will be covered with ugly plastic playthings.

e. Any plants you put in will be destroyed by your children.

f. You will live in an ugly neighborhood of marginally maintained homes without privacy, built close to the street and without trees or attractive landscaping, because that's where families with children congregate.

g. Your home may not appreciate in value as much as would one in a neighborhood with few or no children.

h. Your neighborhood will be less safe than one without children, because it is teens who commit the most crimes, and they commit most of them in their own neighborhoods.

i. Your home will be worn, damaged, cluttered and dirty, furnished with ugly furniture selected for its resistance to the damage children do, floored with cheap, easily replaced flooring.

j. It will take far more of your time to maintain and clean a home with children because it is so much larger than you would otherwise need, and because it gets so much more wear.

k. Because children have large numbers of possessions that they do not pick up and put away, your home will always have a cluttered and depressing appearance, and will be much harder to clean, since any attempt at cleaning must be preceded by a lengthy session of nagging and picking up.

l. When your children are young, your house will smell like diapers. When they are older, it will smell like dirty laundry.

m. Your children will damage your home, at great expense to you. In particular, children draw and paint on walls, break windows, and cause flood damage.

n. Your children will attract vandalism and other risks to your home. Many people have had to move because their children became victims of bullies who carried their harassment to your home.

o. Homes with children are more likely to be robbed because children talk freely about their parents possessions and schedules to other children, some of whom are criminals or involved with criminals. This is a major way that criminals discover potential victims.

22. You will be constantly judged and criticized.

a. You will be told constantly that your child-rearing practices are unacceptable by experts of every stripe, especially other parents and your own parents.

b. All the advice you get will demand that you ignore all your own needs, including your own sanity and health, to focus exclusively on your child's needs and wants. If you fail to do this, you will be labeled a bad parent.

c. All the images presented to mothers are of women who sacrifice themselves completely to cater to the whims of their children. Every time you see these you will feel inadequate.

d. Any interest by mothers in work (known as "career") at the expense of child-bearing and rearing is denigrated as unfeminine, foolishly short-sighted and morally unacceptable.

e. Mothers especially are constantly judged and found wanting if they exhibit any kind of self-determination.

f. You will find that admission into the “mommy club” comes at the price of being constantly examined and constantly, viciously criticized by the other members. Much of this criticism will go on behind your back.

23. You will assume that your experiences will be similar to the experiences of your parents, but their experiences actually provide you with little insight into the difficulty of the task you'll have.

a. When your parents had children, the tasks of the sexes were compartmentalized, so women did not have to perform a second shift of child and house care after a long day at work, and men were not nagged by exhausted wives about not doing enough.

b. Jobs offered medical insurance for a family, security and a pension adequate to support two without demanding 50 hour work weeks, work from home and constant availability.

c. Housing was far more affordable.

d. The expectation that parents must provide unending enrichment and entertainment - but no discipline - for their children did not exist.

e. Few people dealt with pregnant and drug-addicted teens.

f. Children moved about almost exclusively under their own power instead of being chauffeured everywhere by parents.

g. Doctors were less skilled at saving the lives of extremely ill and disabled babies, so many fewer people ended up caring for completely incapacitated children.

h. A college education, even at the best private schools, could be paid for with a combination of work and grants. Now it is impossible to afford an education even at a public school without help from parents and crippling loans.

i. Divorce was rare, and a woman who stayed home with children could be assured of lifetime support in the case of divorce. Now she cannot even be assured of child support, although she can be almost certain that she will end up with custody of the children.

j. People whose child-rearing responsibilities prevented them from adequately saving for retirement could always fall back on Social Security. It is estimated that around 33% of Social Security recipients have no other source of income, and 65% rely on Social Security for over half their income. People who are currently under 55 must plan to provide a much larger fraction of their retirement income, when their expenses are higher and their income no larger.

k. Parents were expected only to produce reasonably healthy and well-behaved children. Now to be an adequate parent, your child must be an academic star, physically perfect, eat only the healthiest food, and be engaged in multiple cultural and social activities. This requires almost non-stop activities which you will pay for dearly and drive to endlessly.

24. Having children traps women in sexist roles and expectations

a. When a baby arrives, the woman almost always ends up with all the responsibility.

b. That responsibility fractures the focus of women so their productivity disappears. It is easy to tell when a woman author has had her first baby. Her books become confused and unreadable. The only woman Nobel laureate in science of the modern age (of six) who has children is Rosalind Yalow. She notes in her autobiography that she had live-in help with her household until her younger child was 9 years old, and has said in interviews that she was able to do Nobel-prize winning research and keep up with her household only because she requires just four hours of sleep a night.

c. Even though a woman may be holding down a full time job AND shouldering the responsibility for child care, it is almost certain that her husband will claim that he does “half,” thus depriving her of the credit for her work.

d. Once a woman has children, she becomes disempowered, tolerating being relegated to the role of household help, avoiding confrontation and “giving in” on her feminist principles rather than risk negatively affecting the children. Susan Maushart says “motherhood profoundly increases a woman's conservatism ... The presence of children almost invariably raises the stakes, making compromise more acceptable and inequities easier to rationalise."

e. It is almost always the woman’s career that is allowed to suffer in order to provide child care – almost never the man’s.

f. Women who declared they would never put their fate in a man’s hands will become stay-at-home moms, taking a terrible risk, and putting themselves in the role of chattel to their husbands because it is the only way their children can be provided with adequate care.

g. Women who end up divorced after staying home with children are relentlessly shortchanged economically in almost every possible way. Their lifetime earning power has been eroded by their time out, their retirement savings have been severely affected, and they may not be able to go back to their former work if they are no longer current.

h. Women who end up doing all the childcare and household tasks model powerlessness and subservience to their daughters.

i. Women will have to watch their husbands enjoying hobbies and free time while they slave at the household tasks.

j. Women who were once activist will find themselves unwilling to challenge the status quo any more, because they have become dependent on it.

k. Women will shortchange themselves of a loving relationship, ignoring their own needs for love, appreciation and an equal relationship in order to keep the children’s father in their lives.

l. Women who end up divorced will petition for custody of their children even if they don’t really want them and even knowing how ghastly their lives are about to become because it’s expected and they will be brutally criticized if they don’t take custody.

m. A pregnant woman is more likely to be killed by her child’s father than to die from any other cause.

25. Having children traps men in sexist roles and expectations.

a. Once a woman is pregnant, the man has no say at all in the fate of his child. If the mother drinks to excess, causing the fetus to be damaged, he cannot stop her – but he will still be responsible for the support of the resulting disabled child. If the fetus is horribly deformed, he cannot force the mother to abort, and must go through the emotional trauma of the birth and the usual subsequent death. If the child is certain to be born with a non-lethal abnormality, he must accept that he is financially ruined and that his happy life is over permanently.

b. Women often criticize everything men do for their children. They end up feeling incompetent. Then they are criticized for not doing enough.

c. Women frequently shut their husbands out of their children’s lives. They act as though only they have final authority over the child.

c. Men still have a healthy sex drive after the birth of a baby, but their partners are rarely interested anymore.

d. A woman will commonly prevent the father from disciplining their children, or will undermine his authority, forcing him to live with a bratty, out-of-control child.

e. Women commonly allow their child to replace their husband emotionally, spending all their energy and attention and love on the child, and shutting the husband out. The husband may feel like he exists only to provide financial support.

f. Many regions allow men little or no leave or other support to take time with a new baby, thus ensuring they will be closed out of their child’s life.

g. Men who get fed up with a sexless, lifeless marriage, with having to live with badly behaved children, and with being shut out of their children’s lives will be severely criticized and often ostracized if they bail out of their marriages.

h. Women are encouraged to quit work and stay home with children. The father rarely has any input into this decision, and once the mother makes it, will be forced into a terrifying position of crushing responsibility.

i. Mothers of small children are almost always depressed, exhausted and unhappy, and take that out on their husbands. The homes they may have to work very hard to provide become places of unending stress and misery.

j. Fathers may be accused of child molestation by their wives as a way of gaining leverage in divorce, and end up with their lives ruined.
Re: Just in case you are thinking about having kids... (Long)
January 03, 2008
This was really good. It contained just about every comeback to a bingo that I can think of.
Re: Just in case you are thinking about having kids... (Long)
January 04, 2008
Dittos, Lucy! I will print this one out for the bingos. Women also need to look at the vanity side. Many men will claim they will still love their wives if they cannot lose the baby weight once she gives birth. What a fucking lie! Most of the time, husbands start cheating when the wife is pregnant. And...that is the first time an abuser hits his wife. Why??? These men are not dumb. They know a woman is most vulnerable when she is pregnant. Where is she going to go? Unless she has $$$ or a good career, she is stuck like Chuck. Men are very visual people and only notice fat when it is on a woman's body. That is usually the biggest reason a man fools around: "Wah...wah...my wife is no longer a size four..." :bawl Boo-fucking-HOO! Women need to stop falling for the myth of how wonderful family life is as most women are assaulted, raped, and killed by a male family member than by a stranger.
amethusos* Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dittos, Lucy! I will print this one out for the
> bingos. Women also need to look at the vanity
> side. Many men will claim they will still love
> their wives if they cannot lose the baby weight
> once she gives birth. What a fucking lie! Most of
> the time, husbands start cheating when the wife is
> pregnant. And...that is the first time an abuser
> hits his wife. Why??? These men are not dumb. They
> know a woman is most vulnerable when she is
> pregnant. Where is she going to go? Unless she has
> $$$ or a good career, she is stuck like Chuck. Men
> are very visual people and only notice fat when it
> is on a woman's body. That is usually the biggest
> reason a man fools around: "Wah...wah...my wife is
> no longer a size four..." :bawl Boo-fucking-HOO!
> Women need to stop falling for the myth of how
> wonderful family life is as most women are
> assaulted, raped, and killed by a male family
> member than by a stranger.

Many American women think that it will not happen to them. At least that is what they are telling me. Many want to sprog like no other.

You women here know where the world stands. Most women in USA have their brains in their uterus. You girls (on this site) got brains in the right place and you girls actually use your brains. I have respect for you.:yr
Re: Just in case you are thinking about having kids... (Long)
January 06, 2008
Rusky Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Many American women think that it will not happen
> to them. At least that is what they are telling
> me. Many want to sprog like no other.

Women never learn. I hate it when men act horribly to a woman but the sad thing is what I said already: women never learn. Annie's Mailbox, the former Ann Landers column, has a moo of one who wants another child. First kid was an accident. Husband is a good dad. However, moo does not want her son to be an only child as she was because she missed having a sibling bond.

I am an only child and loved it. Sibling bonds were more like sibling bombs to me with all of the fighting I would see at friend's houses when I was a kid. Okay...back to rant.

When the woman approached her husband about a second child, he flipped out saying he hated the responsibility of fatherhood and wanted NO MORE children. Wifey announces she has gone off of her birth control and told her husband to deal with it. He said he would divorce her if she gets pregnant. This dumb bitch said in the letter to the advice columnists that she does not believe it will come to that.

Trust me...anytime a spouse uses the "D" word, s/he means it. That is nothing to play with at all. The Annie's Mailbox ladies said that the man could come around (hate it when wimmin say that shit)...but also mentioned the husband could keep his promise about ending the marriage. Of course, couples counseling was offered. Either a person wants more kids or s/he doesn't. The man does not need a therapist because he is only going through the motions with the first kid he did not want and is refusing to have more offspring. The wife is damned fortunate that her spouse is willing to be a good father despite not wanting the first accident.

The advice women also said that going off b/c means that the guy may withhold sex or get a vasectomy. If the man is smart, he will get fixed and not fuck his wife until there is a low sperm count. If the man was smarter, he would divorce now because this woman seems to stop at nothing to get that second sprog. The woman needs to understand that if there is a withholding of sex, her husband is going to go elsewhere for physical companionship. No man is going to go completely without sex!

Yes...many American women are stupid. They see the warning signs in glaring letters like this letter writer to Annie's Mailbox but do not think the men will go through the threat to divorce or see how they are being used if it is a different scenario than what I mentioned.
>
> You women here know where the world stands. Most
> women in USA have their brains in their uterus.
> You girls (on this site) got brains in the right
> place and you girls actually use your brains. I
> have respect for you.:yr

Thank-you! I knew since childhood how motherhood was nothing more than a leghold trap for women.
amethusos* Wrote:
--------------------------------------------------

> The advice women also said that going off b/c
> means that the guy may withhold sex or get a
> vasectomy. If the man is smart, he will get fixed
> and not fuck his wife until there is a low sperm
> count.

Yes, Yes, Yes! Then make sure all the money one has earned is gone at least a year BEFORE the divorce!

>If the man was smarter, he would divorce
> now because this woman seems to stop at nothing to
> get that second sprog.

Get fixed and do not look back! It sounds to me this guy did not want the first one to begin with! He is just feeling crappy for the kid and forces himself to be a top notch father because it is not the kid's fault. Messed up by the breeder propaganda, moo-face, is not getting it. Run my man, run! [Take your money too, that kid will need it. If you leave the money with moo, she will blow it on her new prince (next swinging dick) that comes along for a good, wet, on the rebound booty call.]

>The woman needs to
> understand that if there is a withholding of sex,
> her husband is going to go elsewhere for physical
> companionship. No man is going to go completely
> without sex!

I know of some men that have gone completely without sex some some time. They are MARRIED men, believe it or not! There is only 1 problem. They are a little late, because sexless life is a characteristic of a sprogful life and wife who freaking hates it.

On the other hand, if a dude will not screw because he fears pignasty, my hat is off to him and I am bowing to him!



> Yes...many American women are stupid. They see the
> warning signs in glaring letters like this letter
> writer to Annie's Mailbox but do not think the men
> will go through the threat to divorce or see how
> they are being used if it is a different scenario
> than what I mentioned.

Again, breeder media and Hollywood promise the bright light!

> >
> > You women here know where the world stands.
> Most
> > women in USA have their brains in their uterus.
>
> > You girls (on this site) got brains in the
> right
> > place and you girls actually use your brains.
> I
> > have respect for you.:yr
>
> Thank-you! I knew since childhood how motherhood
> was nothing more than a leghold trap for women.

My pleasure, ladies!:smoke
Re: Just in case you are thinking about having kids... (Long)
January 07, 2008
Rusky, you mention the wives who hate sex despite being so willing to get it on for those babies. Annie's Mailbox had another letter that day from a man who was in a relationship for a long time with a woman who felt he had to "earn" sex.

From what I gathered, the two dated so it is not as if the guy moved the lady in for free sex while she paid half of everything and did the housework without any commitment as most men in live-in situations act as if they are single so cheating is not a biggie while the ladies behave as if they are married women.

Sexual relations are an issue in many relationships and marriages where the women do act as if men have to earn sex. Do something nice or buy what is wanted and sex will be given. That is no way to have a relationship. I do not believe a man is entitled to sex with anyone he pleases; however, it is horrible when sex is acted like a doggie treat for "behaving" when the two are in a relationship.

$$$$ is an issue. If both parties work and contributed the marriage or the woman helped the man through school and in his career, assets should be split down the middle in a divorce. I get the feeling that the letter writer whining for another baby does not do much. In those cases, the divorce laws need to be overhauled. Many women get a huge payout just for being married and not doing a damned thing.

The guy should spend the money as fast as he can because this woman is bent on screwing him...no pun intended. Just as I advise women to be proactive re: contraception, men also need to do the same...
amethusos* Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Rusky, you mention the wives who hate sex despite
> being so willing to get it on for those babies.

They are the wives that have been pushed into thinking that sex is bad unless it's purpose is to get pregnant. Well enough, but could this woman explain to her starving kids why she did not use contraception?
If a man is willing to have sex with a woman like that, I would have to say that he is an emotionally challenged individual who walks and does as directed. It appears here that having no sex at all is a better choice. No act of sex is worth undesired pregnancy.


> Annie's Mailbox had another letter that day from a
> man who was in a relationship for a long time with
> a woman who felt he had to "earn" sex.

Many men start out on a wrong note. They seem to want to have a relationship with a woman of everyman's dreams by "buying" her out. What happens here is that he already took a step forward towards "earning" sex. The only place that sex should "earned" is a whore house, since the more one pays, the more one gets.
>
> From what I gathered, the two dated so it is not
> as if the guy moved the lady in for free sex while
> she paid half of everything and did the housework
> without any commitment as most men in live-in
> situations act as if they are single so cheating
> is not a biggie while the ladies behave as if they
> are married women.

It is a common perception that men encounter when they co-habitate with a woman and do not marry her. Cheating and deception happens in both cases - married or not. Both men and women engage in this kind of activity. Western world has it that a man must commit (or pay for, earn, legally bind - you get the picture) to a lady to justify his pleasure - because sex, in the western world, is bad, unless pregnancy is intended.
>
> Sexual relations are an issue in many
> relationships and marriages where the women do act
> as if men have to earn sex. Do something nice or
> buy what is wanted and sex will be given. That is
> no way to have a relationship.

But if a man chooses to accept that, I see a lack of self-esteem and wisdom in him. One must not blame his mother (who may have been very hard on her son), for she is responsible for her son until he ages to 10 or short time after. Past that time and on he is his own man and he is to regard for his own thought and his own doing. No man need to accept sex as a reward for well doing for a female partner.

>I do not believe a man is entitled to sex with anyone he pleases;

Realistically, a man with money and political power will not have sex with whomever. He will proceed to a societally perceived prime choice sex partner, which, in a western world, happens to be a young, slender woman with facial features specified by beauty magazines of that particular area.

> however, it is horrible when sex is acted like a
> doggie treat for "behaving" when the two are in a
> relationship.

Men are often referred to as Dogs in the western world. At least they are on television. What is often forgotten about is that these men actually believe it! I think it's crazy! These men need to stand up and refuse to get treated like that. Turning a loose moo down once in a while will not hurt but instead will help greatly. Like everything else out there, sex is only worth as much as someone is willing to pay for it.

>
> $$$$ is an issue. If both parties work and
> contributed the marriage or the woman helped the
> man through school and in his career, assets
> should be split down the middle in a divorce. I
> get the feeling that the letter writer whining for
> another baby does not do much. In those cases, the
> divorce laws need to be overhauled. Many women get
> a huge payout just for being married and not doing
> a damned thing.

The idea of marriage has become as stale as a 1 week old fish without refrigeration. While marriage laws can and probably will get overhauled, who, with proper knowledge and understanding is going to agree to join in this legal nightmare (legal marriage)? I am not a very smart person but I know and understand this - it's about as simple as 2+2!

> The guy should spend the money as fast as he can
> because this woman is bent on screwing him...no
> pun intended.

There are ways to hide money. Plenty of them. While it should look like the money was spent, it should, however be hidden. Save that cash in a stash and do not let her see it.

>Just as I advise women to be
> proactive re: contraception, men also need to do
> the same...

I am a firm believer of vasectomy without wife's knowledge. If a men was stupid enough and low self esteemed enough to get married, he, at bare minimum, needs to get fixed. Life is only better after that.

Like I said in the past, many men get married because they think they will be getting "it" steady and for certain. Do not forget the "doggie treat" treatment. Sex will be scarce and expensive in marriage. You may loose what you have earned and may even owe what you do not have. In any given case, a sexless life is way better than a sexless marriage.
Re: Just in case you are thinking about having kids... (Long)
January 08, 2008
I also believe in vasectomy without the wife's knowledge as I believe a woman has the right to get an abortion or a tubal without the man knowing about it.

The issues about sex versus commitment in the Western world is that we have not evolved too much when it comes to gender and sex issues. A man who has more than one person in his life is applauded.

For a woman, having sex with someone she does not know well or is not "committed" is often unsafe and dangerous. Often, a woman is called a "slut" for first date sex or for preferring a casual friend over commitment...or for having more than one lover.

Sexuality is a loaded issue. In a perfect world, there would be no restraints re: sexual relations. People could be monogamous or have open relationships. In this society, open relationships rarely work because it benefits one person more than the other partner and jealousies arise despite any "emotional contracts" over what would not be acceptable. Those things usually end very badly.

Commitment is very ingrained in women since we were toddlers about how "being in love" is important before any sexual relations are to happen. Marriage is looked at as the ultimate goal. Getting a ring is that prize. I hate the marriage industry with the white burqas and the gold handcuffs (meaning the rings). It is very patriarchal and shows of ownership.

Oy...I've rambled enough.:lips
Re: Just in case you are thinking about having kids... (Long)
January 08, 2008
amethusos* Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I also believe in vasectomy without the wife's
> knowledge as I believe a woman has the right to
> get an abortion or a tubal without the man knowing
> about it.
>
> The issues about sex versus commitment in the
> Western world is that we have not evolved too much
> when it comes to gender and sex issues. A man who
> has more than one person in his life is applauded.
>
>
> For a woman, having sex with someone she does not
> know well or is not "committed" is often unsafe
> and dangerous. Often, a woman is called a "slut"
> for first date sex or for preferring a casual
> friend over commitment...or for having more than
> one lover.
>
> Sexuality is a loaded issue. In a perfect world,
> there would be no restraints re: sexual relations.
> People could be monogamous or have open
> relationships. In this society, open relationships
> rarely work because it benefits one person more
> than the other partner and jealousies arise
> despite any "emotional contracts" over what would
> not be acceptable. Those things usually end very
> badly.
>
> Commitment is very ingrained in women since we
> were toddlers about how "being in love" is
> important before any sexual relations are to
> happen. Marriage is looked at as the ultimate
> goal. Getting a ring is that prize. I hate the
> marriage industry with the white burqas and the
> gold handcuffs (meaning the rings). It is very
> patriarchal and shows of ownership.
>
> Oy...I've rambled enough.:lips

For as much equality as I try to see, being a woman is still a place with many disadvantages. Pressure from other women to "do the right thing" is one of many examples. Being an older woman is not a cake either. Our society seems to expect women to be young and to be on par with all of the latest fashion trends. It is hard for a woman in her 40's and 50's to find employment unless it involves baby sitting. Earlier today I heard on the news that someone yelled "Iron my shirts" to Hillary Clinton. I do not like Hillary in any way, shape or form, but yelling that crap was completely uncalled for. That was just wrong.

Marriage industry is is business with some hefty revenues. They make money by encouraging young people to get married. They draw these wonderful pictures and promise a bright future for the married. So far, I found the opposite to be true. Single by choice people have done better than married by stupidity idiots! I am not including people who live with parents by the age 40, but I am talking about the professional singles - majority has done well and they do not worry about divorce. They also do not have to worry about paying off that $20,000 wedding that they got sucked into by listening to ferry tails.
Re: Just in case you are thinking about having kids... (Long)
January 09, 2008
You sure hit on something that gets to me, Techie. Once I hit the Big Four-O, those receptionist jobs became a thing of the past. I have a good resume and have the experience; however, I had been looked over for the young twentysomethinger for eye candy at the front desk. So, I got into call center work where the centers just wanted warm bodies to fill those seats and did not care how old a woman is or worry about her looks. I also stayed in security since that industry also needs warm bodies. Women are never expected to gain weight as they age while it is acceptable on a man's body.

I hate the marriage industry. How about those blokes who shell out thousands for that engagement ring with the expensive clear rock??? Women who show off their baubles get to me as well because it is as if they are being "bought and paid for". The white wedding burqas is nothing more than patriarchal bullshit. I have a friend who got married in black. Her moo-in-law whined how my friend would regret not wearing that white dress to pretend virginity. Fuck that shit. I better shut up and drink some more coffee. I am crankier than usual.
drinking coffee
1000% super true.
Techie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> 1. There is no good reason to: Every reason for
> having children falls into two categories: grossly
> selfish or brainless.
>
> a. About half of parents, when asked why they had
> children say “I don’t know.” In other words, they
> have undertaken a life-altering action of enormous
> magnitude, without sparing a single thought about
> it.
>
> b. Those who have thought about why they had
> children cannot give a single reason that does not
> start with the words “I want….” Clearly to those
> who have thought about it, having children is
> entirely about filling their own needs, and the
> well-being of the children and of the rest of the
> occupants of the planet are never considered.
>
> c. The chestnuts generally presented as reasons
> for having children (Your child may cure
> cancer!...Who will take care of you when you’re
> old!) are invariably stupid, selfish and
> unrealistic.


I got antother one: They are moral and say abortion is a sin so they think it OK to have a child as a punishment from god from enjoying a good sex.
Guess what Techie - I went to your geocities link and I saved as Word document. That way if my Girlfirend (actaully, I don't have one) tells me she wants or demand a baby. I'll print out my word document and show her this list of why no kids? and I'll make sure she reads it. I'll also make sure she just not change her mind abut not having a child, but make her sterilize for life.
Re: Just in case you are thinking about having kids... (Long)
June 16, 2008
"You will be consistently and constantly lied to by everyone about the demands and rewards of having children: The demands will be minimized and the rewards greatly exaggerated. Even if your situation clearly contraindicates children, most people will deny or minimize your problems and urge you to reproduce anyway. As a result, you will have no good information on what the task requires."

this is a huge one for me.
Re: Just in case you are thinking about having kids... (Long)
June 16, 2008
ASRock Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Guess what Techie - I went to your geocities link
> and I saved as Word document. That way if my
> Girlfirend (actaully, I don't have one) tells me
> she wants or demand a baby. I'll print out my word
> document and show her this list of why no kids?
> and I'll make sure she reads it. I'll also make
> sure she just not change her mind abut not having
> a child, but make her sterilize for life.

I saved it too. 29 pages!
Re: Just in case you are thinking about having kids... (Long)
June 16, 2008
Here's my favorite...especially "Questions potential parents should ask themselves"
http://enlightenment.supersaturated.com/essays/text/carolynray/shame_children.html

The Social Stigma of Leading a Ward-Free Life
by Carolyn Ray
Date: 11 Jul 98 (draft)
Copyright: Carolyn Ray

If you wish to remain child-free, I hope that this discussion will help you develop the strength of your convictions. If you have or want children, I hope that the discussion will help you to feel more comfortable with others' decisions to live a ward-free life.

Priceless quote (8/8/2000) from a reader's letter: "My husband and I (both child free, 15 year marriage) have likened staying child free to running down a hall with people throwing chairs in your way, trying to trip you up. The journey requires a definite thoughtful resilience in the face of overwhelming disapproval from family, friends and religious organizations."
--Jennifer Enright-Ford

You do have a choice. Have you ever thought about it? Do you feel guilty just questioning the idea that you will reproduce?

What I am about to say may shock you. You might feel a bit afraid of thinking about this subject at all. You might be scared you'll change your mind about having children if you think too carefully about it. But considering life without children does not make you a bad person. Thinking before making a decision is good. And if you love children and want some, a little discussion won't change your mind. If you do "change your mind" as a result of reading this discussion, or start to develop doubts, maybe you should give the matter more thought before it's too late. If I can prevent even one unwanted child from coming into the world to lead a loveless life and one would-be parent from taking on a burden that he or she really doesn't want, I will have succeeded in my purpose.

Children are not toys. They are not property. They are not rational abstractions that we can discuss without knowing the details. They have lives and interests all their own. It was once typical, even in the United States, for adults to create children so that they could use them for their own purposes: if they needed workers for the farm, for example, they could produce them. And even now, if people are bored or their marriage is rocky, some hope to distract themselves with a new duty.

Currently, a popular view is that children are creatures who naturally demand sacrifice. Sacrifice is considered by many to be an intrinsic good. It is common for people to say, with an air of moralistic condescension, "What do you mean, children are too large an investment? You have to make some sacrifices in in life!" Perhaps it's true that some sacrifices have to be made in life. But why this sacrifice, in particular?

Many people are unable to imagine a person who is happy without children. There are some eccentric artists and philosophers who never had children, but of course they're oddballs. It is unthinkable that any of the nice people in one's social circle would intentionally go childless.

Even if they are vaguely aware that there are people with children who are not at all happy, still many people think that living without children increases the risk of unhappiness. This may be true for some people. But there is no good reason to think that it is true for all people, and plenty of reasons against thinking so.

I am convinced that there are many parents who never wanted children. They created them anyway because they didn't know how to stand up for what they really did want. Judging by the way many parents behave toward children, and by the things they comp lain about, it seems pretty clear that most people don't like children very much at all. They are bothered by a high percentage of the natural behavior of healthy children.

Some of these very people will try hard to convince others to have children too. Why would this happen? Some people genuinely believe that a happy life is not possible to the ward-free adult. But for others, I think defensiveness is part of the reas on for the inconsistency. Whether one voices any criticism of them or not, some people who have created children without really wanting them will consider someone else's decision not to live with children as an implied accusation of a lack of foresight. And others who are happy to live with children consider the decision to do otherwise as an assault on their values and their lifestyle. The rest of the cause can be attributed to unthinking conformity to established practice.

As simple as this idea seems to me, and indeed as simple as it may seem to you, nevertheless sometimes people do not understand my point. People think I am over-intellectualizing the matter — that normal human beings have strong emotional needs t hat can only be gratified by living with children.

Of course it would be a waste of time and even morally wrong in some cases to attempt to persuade people who really want children that they should not live with them or that in fact do not want them. But this is never my purpose.

My only contention is that there is an alternative lifestyle, and that people who have never thought about WHY they want children and WHETHER they really want them, ought not to have children until they consider the alternative. If possible, the matte r should be discussed with an objective third party who is not under his or her own religious or familial pressures to reproduce.

"Children Might Be Nice..." versus "When Will the Misery of Being Childless End!?"

Examine your feelings very carefully!

I have considered what it would be like to have a very large house. Sometimes when I have lived in cramped quarters, the idea of 20 rooms with large closets creates a quiet longing in me. But when I think about my preferred lifestyle, my preferred ca reer, etc., it is hard for me to justify having an apartment much bigger than the one I have, let alone own a house.

On the other hand, I want a dog very badly, and the fact that I cannot currently have one is torture for me (my apartment complex doesn't allow them). I think about dogs all the time. I can't wait to have one or two or three as my constant companions . I walk other people's dogs, and have thought about working as a trainer just to be near them.

The basic difference between my feelings about a large house and my feelings about a dog boils down to: "might be nice" versus "when will the misery end?"

If you are miserable without babies, children, and teenagers in your daily life, then you know what you want. Unfortunately, most people can't say this, and the result is offspring which competes, often quite unsuccessfully, for its parents' time instead of integrating smoothly into their lives. If you think it might be nice to have a cute little baby, think more — a lot more.

Have You Done The Cost-Benefit Analysis?

List all of the things that you would like to buy and add up how much they would cost. Then get a current estimate of the cost of caring for a child. Would you be happy to give up the other things, if that's the only way you could afford the child?

Many people find themselves counting the money the child has cost AFTER it is spent — secretly, of course, because it would be shameful to let people know that the cost of the child is even a consideration.

This is not intended to imply that there are some things that are more valuable, intrinsically, than children. However, I do think that these are the sorts of things that many people would rather have and that help them feel regret at having had children. They ought to give these options serious thought, and not allow themselves to be cowed by taboos forbidding the calculation.

Children crave loving companionship above all else. They are not interested in lots of intellectualized reasons for bringing them into the world. They want to be around adults who adore them. You can lie to your kids, but if you don't really want t hem, they will pick up on it. How many people do you know personally who have told you that one or both parents were cold to them, or seemed more interested in their jobs, or beat them? I know many such people. Their parents should never have given bir th; once they did, they should have sought help either in finding more suitable homes for their unwanted burdens or in learning how to appreciate their new charges.

In what follows, I address prevalent attitudes toward living with children, and the persuasive techniques people use to convince others to live with children. I draw on real-life examples to make my arguments. I write in the first person for the most part, because I believe this device serves as a reminder that there is a real person behind these ideas. I will start my describing my own attitude.

My Personal Desire

Let me be as blunt as possible. I don't want children. It's not that I can't have them, or that I don't feel capable of raising them, or that I am by nature irresponsible, or that I haven't thought enough about it, or that I don't have a suitable parenting partner. I've thought about it for many years, both before and after rigorous philosophical training. I just don't want them in my personal life. Not even one.

It has been expressed to me all my life that such an attitude is shameful. Yet I see no more shame in not wanting children than I see in not wanting to be a dress designer or not wanting to run a farm. All three of these are worthy occupations; I do not condemn the people who sincerely choose them. I see this as a matter of interest and taste. I can do many, many things with my life. Living with children is just one of those many things.

Whether this attitude will change in the future for me, I don't know and I don't need to know. Given the rate at which unwanted children are born, children are remarkably — shamefully — easy to come by, at any time of life, contrary to common myth. True, eggs go bad, health goes bad, and husbands and wives die. But none of those reasons nor any other is a good enough reason to create a currently unwanted child because I might change my mind. I don't even have a reason to th ink it will ever be too late.

Reactions to the Decision to Lead a Ward-Free Life

As a woman who has decided not to have children (unless her interests and values change in a way which she does not foresee at present), I listen to a lot of well-meant lectures — and some not-so-well-meant insults. I have also heard reports of arguments from people whose partners or families are pressuring them to have children. I get the most pressure from people — both parents and non-parents — who have not examined their own alleged "interest" in living with children. If these le ctures were intended to create a genuine love of and desire for children, one could see the point. But they seem designed to persuade me to create children even in the absence of desire for them.

Below, I list a number of the attempts at persuasion that I have heard or that have been reported to me. I'll tell you what I think of each. If you are childless and wish to remain so, I hope that this discussion will help you develop the strength of your convictions. If you have or want children, I hope that the discussion will help you to feel more comfortable with others' decisions to live a ward-free life.

Emotional Arguments

This group of arguments plays directly on the social stigma of not wanting children, and on other generic emotions such as fear of the unknown, loneliness, and insecurity. None of them make use of what I would consider an appropriate emotional reason for living with children: genuine love and desire for them.

1. But it's so sad when people don't have children! Their lives are so empty and unfulfilled! Do you want to be like that?

The pity is misplaced. I don't have children, but I don't feel emptiness and a lack of fulfillment; it is wrong to assume that all ward-free people do. My life is extremely full of activities and people I love — so much so that I feel overtaxed as it is. There is no longing keeping me awake at night, no sense that there is someone missing. Not everyone's life requires the same things. Your life may require children; mine does not.

There are people who feel empty and unfulfilled and don't know why. But it is quite possible that any given feeling of emptiness stems from some underlying problem that has nothing to do with children. If so, children can make matters worse by distracting attention and energy from that problem. Perhaps the emptiness stems from a longing to get an education, advance in a career, find a more attentive lover, or do something adventuous; or perhaps it is due to depression or psychosis that requires treatm ent, any of which can be more difficult or effectively "impossible" to accomplish with a child around. Unless a person expresses emptiness by peering sadly into strollers or offering free babysitting during their leisure hours, it would be irresponsible a nd unfounded to try to convince the person that the problem is a unrecognized desire for children.

If you think that the saddest thing you have ever heard is the story of the parents who couldn't make their own baby, listen to the story of the person who regretted having children, or the story of a child who was regretted.

And in the end, doesn't a desperate and unexamined sense of emptiness seem a rather poor foundation upon which to begin a new life?

2. What if your husband wants children? Won't it be cruel not to give him any, now that he's stuck with you?

The answer to this question for me is quite simple: Any man who wants children in his personal life is incompatible with me at a very basic level, and I wouldn't let him "get stuck" with me. Of course, it isn't that easy for some people. It is easy to understand why many people are so frightened by the social stigma that they don't discuss the matter openly before marriage. Then they have to deal with a much more difficult problem.

Let us imagine that I marry a man who has not been open with me on this topic, and he begins to pressure me to have children. Supposedly, I love this man, and would not want to deprive him of anything. Therefore, it would be very painful for both of us if I were to deny him children. Wouldn't it be reasonable to compromise and give him just one child?

I contend that such a compromise would be exceedingly cruel. Even in the case in which I have to do the least work — where a child is adopted rather than carried in my body, and my husband does most of the caregiving — there are severe probl ems with the arrangement.

* There is no evidence so far that I will ever change my mind about children. If that is the case, then I will be living with a child I don't want. I will be miserable. It is not a good compromise if the happiness of one partner requires the misery o f the other.

* What about the child's well being? The child would have to live with someone who doesn't want her! This is a horrible thing to do to a human being. It is much worse than preventing my husband, a grown man whose self-esteem and integrity are mostly formed, from living with a child.

It is quite possible, if this man's longing is severe enough, that the marriage must end. This would be a much better compromise. Hopefully, he would overcome the social stigma and be more responsible the next time he discusses marriage with someone w ho so openly declares her disinterest in children.

3. You say you don't want them now, but I know you'll like it once it gets here.

A friend of mine from college made this argument to persuade her fiance to make children part of their lives, even though he said he didn't want to. You might have had enough experience with someone to convince yourself that the intrinsic appeal of a new babie will change his mind. It might be a reasonable strategy to use when choosing a new kind of ice cream. It is a terrible risk to take with a child. You can't take it back to the store or use up the whole thing yourself if you are mistaken. As a lover of children, do you really want to subject a child to an uninterested father?

4. But I want grandchildren before I die! I gave you life. Can't you give me this one little thing?

Grandchildren require the cooperation of someone else. That one would even feel comfortable expressing such a wish to an adult child is incredible (in the United States, at any rate), given that so many adults take their parents' feelings very serious ly, and in certain kinds of cases consider them to be a moral injunction, in the sense that the parent would not wanting that thing if it weren't a right thing to want.

Moreover, attempting to make an emotional connection between the birth of a child with one's own death can play on an adult child's worst fears, even to the point of suggesting that a child had better be produced so that the grandparent will live longe r.

This is not to say that it is wrong to want grandchildren, or to fantasize about them. But it is wrong to say this to an adult child without qualification; for example, "I've always wanted grandchildren, but I am behind your decision 100%. Only your needs are important in this decision. I've realized that what I especially want is to have a relationship with a child. Since you have decided not to give birth, I have arranged with my neighbor to supply babysiting in exchange for their child's company. " If you are a person who is being pressured by a parent to have children, you should realize that this is the way a responsible person — whether your parent or anyone else — should respond to decisions you make about your own life. If this is not the response you are getting, do not give in to the pressure. Children make life hell for adults who don't really want them; and in turn, those adults make the children's lives hell.

If you are a parent who is feeling the urge to discuss the absence of grandchildren, keep in mind that such expressions of desire must be carefully controlled, lest a daughter or a son feel compelled to comply with it and bring forth a child for no oth er reason than that someone wants to be a grandparent.

5. But sweet little babies! How can you not want that in your life?

I think this "argument" is supposed to convey the idea that the person finds babies irresistible, and is confused and shocked that there is someone who does not.

However, I contend that even if a person finds a quiet baby irresistible, it might be possible that he or she won't find a crying baby — or 7-year-old, or a 14-year-old — so irresistible, or even that he or she doesn't really like to be with children or babies the way a caregiver has to be with them. Arguing in this way is an expression of a very superficial and unreflective interest in babies in particular, and it has nothing to do with a genuine desire for real children.

Character Assassination

These arguments have one thing in common: aggressive attacks on the character of the person who is considering not living with children. They seek to persuade by threatening to think ill of the person who does not want to have children.

1. You must have been an unhappy child. That's why you don't want to live with children. You should see a psychologist and find out what's wrong with you.

This sort of argument disguises itself as concern for a difficult childhood. But it is a cruel attempt to persuade by means of hurting the person's feelings or making him or her feel ashamed of having a bad family life. And it works; most people wish to think well of their families, and a lay-familiarity with psychoanalysis can be enough to convince them that there really is something wrong with them because they don't want children.

If your decision is attacked in this way, after you get over the shock of the attack, consider: what is the point of bringing this up? Should the threat of the stigma of being an unhappy child persuade you to have children? Hopefully it will not! If you were an unhappy child, there are probably some things you should straighten out in your life before you try to help some children with theirs. And if you weren't an unhappy child, then who cares if someone thinks that you were? Are you going to have a child just to prove what you already know?

2. You're only thinking about the bad parts. If you were a more positive person, you'd want to live with children.

This argument, too, is intended to persuade people to create children, although it seems to express hopeless resignation. How does it work? No one, except self-described cynics, wants to be thought of as a negative person. One is supposed to think, " Yes, that's true, I was only thinking of the bad parts. But I'm not the sort of person who only thinks of negative things. Since I am so upbeat and fun-loving, I guess I really do want children."

However, it seems to me that some of the last people who should be persuaded to live with helpless, innocent children, are negative people who are already focused on how bad it will be. So the critic either doesn't really believe that the person is ne gative, or doesn't really care what kind of life the person's potential children would lead.

3. Why do you hate children so much?

Hold your ground long enough, and you will eventually hear this accusation. It is a well-aimed shot; people are terribly afraid of being accused of hating children. Hans Christian Andersen and the Grimms brothers are famous for witches whose goal in life is to torture, kill, and eat children. After all, a person who hates children must hate human beings, potential, carefree happiness, life, love, sexual union, playfulness, puppy dogs and kittens, and pretty much all that is good about the world. Th e argument is a subtle sort of character assassination, and it works by exaggerating the case.

The critic makes it sound like the only alternative to hating children is desiring to live with them. It works! Husbands especially, but wives too, fall for it; and the result is children who have at least one parent who "doesn't really HATE them, I guess." I have heard several of my male friends persuade themselves as follows: "My wife wants children, but I've never been interested. I guess I dont' really HATE them, so maybe it wouldn't hurt to have a couple — she'll take care of them most o f the time anyway, since I'll be at work." Sounds like a wonderful father, doesn't it?

Thought-Free Arguments

I have often heard it asserted that thinking "too much" about certain subjects is bad — and the more important the topic, the worse it is to think about it carefully. Romantic love is one topic people try to protect from thought; reproduction ano ther. The following sentiments seem to recommend acting without thinking.

1. I can't believe you have ever even considered not having children! I haven't! (Or, I've always assumed everyone has children.)

I can't count the number of friends and acquaintances who have said this to me. Sometimes it is offered, indignantly, as a reason for having children; other times it is expressed in a tone of wonderment, as though for the first time the person is discovering that perhaps they have their own life to live without an umbilical tie to another person.

A person might be praiseworthy for never having considered theft or murder. But to never have considered not having children is an error and should be corrected with all speed before an innocent and helpless being is on its way!

2. It's just what adults do. You grow up, you get married, you have children.

I was close to a woman who used this argument to justify having her own children. I had known her for many years, and she had never showed any interest in children at all — no stopping in the street to smile at a baby, no babysitting, no playing with the neighbors' children, no interest in her small cousins and nieces and nephews. After 5 years of marriage, she told me she would cease taking birth control pills in preparation for pregnancy. I expressed my surprise, and asked her what had made he r change her mind. She said that it wasn't really a change of mind, but rather that she had always implicitly considered having children to be part of growing up. You don't have to be particularly INTERESTED in children per se. It's simply the next thin g that adults do.

But the argument assumes what needs to be justified. If I ask why an adult should have children, it is not informative to tell me that adults have children. Clearly, adults have children; you can see them everywhere. But WHY do they do it? If it is merely that people have told them that that is what adults do, then woe to the children!

Intellectual Arguments for Having Children

Intellectually inclined individuals offer more contrived, academic reasons that a person should have children, and contrived, non-emotional reasons for their decision to have children. Whether any of the arguments in this section add to a general list of reasons for someone to have children, there are two things to keep in mind: (1) someone who has children for one or more of these reasons might still not genuinely want a real child, and (2) the mere fact that someone else thinks any of these is a good reason for having children doesn't have to say anything about how you should feel about it.

Although there are many intellectual exercises that can be performed on and with children, intellectual arguments have very little to do with making, raising, and loving real children. Using an intellectual argument against someone's desire to lead a ward-free life probably means one of two things: that one is for some reason ashamed of the emotional desire for the company of children, or that one doesn't have the desire but has tried to make sense of the idea of human parenting just by talking about it. I find these arguments to be the most objectionable because they are so far removed from the reality of living with children. Children don't need to know that you had good intellectualized reasons for bringing them into the world; they need to kno w that you adore them.

This first argument is on the borderline between intellectual and emotional. Although the threat of unhappiness does much of the persuasive work, it seems to have an intellectualizing, rationalistic undercurrent; in addition, I have some logical probl ems with it that make it seem more appropriate to handle it here.

1. You only have a limited amount of time — later you might regret your decision not to have children, and then it will be too late! You're better off having them now while you can.

This argument seems to have a lot of power; but it is fraught with difficulties, so I'll spend some time on it.

It must be terrible for people who really want children, to discover that they are no longer able to reproduce. Being able to literally create a child as well as raise one is a big part of the fun, and missing the window is understandably regrettable.

How much more terrible to have a child and regret that decision! The mere fact that I might someday in the future wish that I had had children does not justify bringing into the world a life I do not now want whole-heartedly. There are already millions (yes, millions) of children who suffer abuse and neglect because their parents unthinkingly gave in to social expectations, and did not magically develop a taste for parenting once the children arrived; I'm sure there still will be plenty of the m once I reach menopause. If I truly come to want children, I'll know exactly where to get some — and how wonderful it will be to not only live with a child I adore, but to know that I rescued it from abuse or neglect! Hedging against regret I mi ght feel in the future is a rather random strategy for pursuing happiness.

The Future Regret Argument seems to compare creating children to doing homework in school: "You may not want to write that paper tonight, but you'll be sorry when you see that 'D' on your report card! Think of your career — don't you see that gi ving up one night of leisure could mean the difference between a job or not?" But children aren't like papers; you don't get them over-with, and then sigh with relief as you look to your future. Children are your future. It would be more reasona ble to compare the decision to have children to the decision to stay in school for the next twenty years; and if you're having trouble writing that paper tonight, how do you think you're going to feel in five years?

In fact, the argument, taken to its logical conclusion, is absurd. Consider any person who has one child — might she not regret not having TWO children, and shouldn't she have another to hedge against this regret? How about a person with two chi ldren — ought he have THREE? How about a person with ten children — might ELEVEN be the right number?

In addition, if this strategy for hedging against future regret were valid, we could also say, "In the future, you might regret having had children — so don't."

This absurdity — that the risk of future regret means I both should and should not create children now — shows that there is something wrong with the argument that considers future regret to be a problem. Regret is a waste of precious time. It is better to accept my past decisions and move boldly into my future. If I find when I am 50 that I want children, regret is not nearly as effective a life strategy as adoption, foster-parenting, teaching, or babysitting. In fact, babysitting and t eaching are great ways to satisfy uncertain parental urges now, while I take some more time to decide whether I want to live with children.

2. Society would be much better off if more talented people like you had children.

There is no question that the world would be a better place for everyone if every person who had children were talented — with respect to caring for and showing love to children! Then we would not have cruel parents and clueless parents. But the fact that someone is talented at something(s) says nothing about whether it is the right decision for them to create new human beings. People should do what will make them happy, and children should have parents who want them. "So ciety" is not served by thwarting either of these objectives.

3. You'd be a great parent! Are you just going to let your ability go to waste?

I love to teach and to play and to find creative ways to improve life in general. Children like me. Therefore, many people think it is contradictory that I say that I don't want children. I have heard people express their own "desire" to have childr en by citing such qualities in themselves, without ever mentioning that they crave the company of a child. But there are many ways for a person to express abilities; why is it assumed that this expression eventually must be directed toward a child?

4. People throughout history have chosen to have children, so there must be some value in it. Otherwise, they wouldn't do it. Are you saying that these people are all wrong, that you know something they don't?

This argument is actually rather silly and trivial in the best cases (e.g., where the cases cited are cases in which parents actually adore children); naturally, people who want children see some value in creating and living with them. It is incorrect in the worst cases (e.g., where people gave in to social pressures); in these cases, there was something at work other than a genuine valuing of children.

My point is never to deny that there are people who want children and who find the experience of raising them extremely valuable. Rather, the point is to help people to respond to the barrage of arguments they may face when they show doubts about havi ng children.

5. But it is natural to want to nurture something! Look at how you take care of your plants and pets — don't you think you're trying to make up for not having children?

I nurture the plants in my garden, my pets, and the wild visitors to my property. I lavish attention on my friends. But my urge to nurture is not context-free. When I acquire plants and animals, it is not because I am filling a need to nurture someth ing. I acquire them because I want my life to be full of plants and animals, and my response to their presence and their needs is to nurture them. The mere fact that a child is something which requires nurturing does not make them similar enough to plan ts and animals to make me want one.

6. If you're worried about having to be the primary caregiver, then it doesn't mean you can't have children! What you need is a husband who is willing to stay home with them.

I enjoy nurturing my neighbor's children for about 15 minutes per week, and then I want to move on to the ward-free activities that fill my life. But children need more than a few minutes, which I can only hope they get at home. I am responsible for a ny life I bring into the world, and I have to be prepared to care for it even when I don't feel like it or when my profession requires more of my time than expected. If a few minutes of nurturing is all I want, then it would be cruel to call forth a life whose day is more than a few minutes long.

7. Reproduction is a natural human activity, so human happiness requires reproduction.

It is true that the nature of human beings is such that they can make babies. But it is a natural human act in virtue of the fact that humans are animals, and it is animal nature to make babies. It is amazing and wonderful, surely, but as a human fun ction, it carries no special force, certainly not the force of necessity.

The nature of human beings, as animals, is also that they can overpower other human beings and take their possessions or kill them. The mere fact that such action is possible to us does not mean that we must act this way, or even that we must act this way in order to be happy. There are many natural human functions which should be curbed. The random production of children without genuine interest in them is one of them.

8. All human beings need to give selflessly to someone else; children give us the opportunity to exercise selflessness.

It is commonly believed that human beings need, whether they feel it or not, to give selflessly of themselves in order to be truly fulfilled, to feel fully human, etc. Children are seen as the recipients of character-building self-sacrifice, and peopl e who don't want children are objectionably selfish, self-centered, uncharitable by nature, egostical, childish.

One might ask why a living with a child is required for a human being to give selflessly. Mother Teresa, for example, was single and childless, yet her admirers think of her as selfless. There are plenty of ways in which one might sacrifice one's va lues, happiness, leisure time, or whatever else it is that one is supposed to sacrifice for the sake of a child, and none of them involve creating a new life. Finally, there is no reason to suppose that self-sacrifice is an inherent need in human beings at all. In fact, an attitude of selflessness has to be carefully cultivated. I will return to selflessness in a later section.

9. Having a child is a unique experience. There's no substitute!

While there is no question that there is no experience like having/raising a child, uniqueness alone doesn't constitute a good reason for doing ANYTHING, nevermind calling forth a new individual person. There are many experiences like no other that a human life can endure: e.g., skydiving, practicing medicine, serving in the marines, training animals for the movies, practicing law, teaching algebra to high school students, etc. All of these experiences are in some way like no other; there are myriad good things to say about each of them. Yet no one would argue that another person ought to do some or all of them simply in virtue of their uniqueness.

Nor is it reasonable for someone to argue for his or her own engagement in that activity by simply pointing out that it is unique. A special interest in the subject is a reasonable expectation; and a medical school student who is not the least bit int erested in biology, science, or people's health is very likely to be questioned by friends as to the choice of discipline. Why, then, would no one question a person's decision to have children, even if the person never showed any interest in children?

It might be replied that while not everyone can be a lawyer, ANYONE can be a parent, and thus there is a disanalogy between being a lawyer and being a parent. This doesn't save the argument; after all, while it takes a special kind of person to become a good lawyer, anyone can become a bad lawyer. Just so, it takes a special kind of person to be a good parent, though ever so many people become BAD PARENTS. Just swing a rope, and you'll hit a few in your neighborhood.

The real reason, I suspect, that people don't ask other people why they have decided to have children despite never having shown any interest in them, is that they are afraid of putting them on the spot about a personal decision that can't be defended. In many cases, this is probably best for one's own mental health. But a close friend should consider it one of the requirements of friendship, to question what seems to be an unreflective judgment.

Moral Arguments for Creating Children

There are various version of morality floating around out there, and there's no telling what sort you will run into next. However different these moralities are, their objections to a ward-free existence can be dealt with in pretty much the same way. Here are some I have heard.

1. That's an awfully selfish attitude, isn't it?

In an episode of the television sitcom Mad About You, Jaimie is trying to hide her pregnancy from her mother so that she can surprise her; she tries to throw her off track by suggesting that she is not even sure she wants children. Her mother is appalled. She replies, "That's an awfully selfish attitude, isn't it?"

Forgetting for the moment any special moral interpretations of the word 'selfish,' several questions arise. First, 'selfish' in the vernacular implies that someone is hurt by the selfish decision; if this is a selfish decision, whose welfare is hurt b y a woman's decision not to have children? Is it Jaimie's? Obviously not. Ordinary people wouldn't call an act "selfish" if the only the actor got hurt. In order for the claim to be meaningful, we must suppose that there is a party other than the acto r who is hurt by the decision. The most logical answer is that it is the potential father; perhaps he wants children, but his cruel wife refuses to give him one. But if the husband is not making this accusation, why would the mother?

And wouldn't a husband be selfish to expect his wife to not only live with children she doesn't want but to create, carry, and give birth to them, all for him? Sadly, I have heard it said that this attitude is selfish despite the absence of a boyfrie nd or husband to disappoint. So, toward whom are these women and these couples displaying selfishness by refusing to have children? Perhaps the woman is being selfish toward her possible future children by not bringing them into existence! If that's the case, then to fulfill her moral obligation, she'll have to create as many children as possible — we wouldn't want to cheat any viable eggs.

Perhaps Jaimie's mother meant that it would disappoint her if there were no grandchildren. If any attitude can be called brutally selfish, it is the attitude that a daughter should create, carry, give birth to, and be responsible for children she does not want so that her mother can "be a grandmother." The very idea should make our stomachs turn. Yet we accept that it is natural for a woman to consider the desires of persons who would have no part in raising or paying for her children were s he to have them.

Another possible interpretation is that Jaimie is not a "giving" person — she is too selfish with her time to give any up for a child. Since childlessness is selfish, and selfishness is morally wrong, childlessness by choice can be taken as a cle ar sign of moral failure. (I deal with other aspects of selflessness and its special burden for women in another essay, and for an eye-opening account of the psychological ramifications of selfless behavior, see Codependent No More: How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself, Melody Beattie (New York: MJF Books, 1992).)

2. Children are a blessing. How can you reject this great gift?

The idea here is that children are intrinsically — i.e., without reference to anything else or any desire of any person's — valuable. But why think so? If someone wants a child, and she manages to give birth to one, it is appropriate to say that THAT child is a blessing to her. But why would anyone think that EVERY child is a blessing, aside from vaguely defined religious injunctions to reproduce? If a couple does not want children, or is not in good financial circumstances, and the woman becomes pregnant, that pregancy is not a blessing to them. It is a burden.

The sentiment used to make sense, when it was common for babies (and mothers) to die at birth or shortly thereafter, and when a man's wealth was counted by how many children his wife or wives had born him. With modern medicine, woman's liberation, and the decline of the importance of physical labor, it no longer makes a lot of sense to calculate wealth in this way. It really doesn't make sense in third world countries, where every new baby means that there will be less food for others. But more impo rtantly, a child is a blessing if you WANT a child; if you don't want a child, in what possible sense can it be a blessing to have one? Thus, as an argument for bearing and raising children, this one is pretty unconvincing.

3. It is a virtue to have children.

People don't make this claim explicitly. It is implied. Mothers often get more respect from people than they got when they were childless. Children are expected to respect their parents, simply because they are in the general vicinity of the child. "Family man" and "Mother" are both terms that engender respect. Certainly, carrying a child can be difficult and giving birth is painful; and there are many things a sincere woman can do to make sure that her fetus gets superior nutrition and protection. But one cannot tell just by knowing that a woman is pregnant or a mother, whether this special effort has been made. In most cases the fetus is carried and born automatically as long as no one interferes. So the implication is that people are virtuous i f they do not interfere with reproduction.

But consider: If having children required a virtuous character, a lot fewer people would have them! Conception is one of the easiest things in the world to do for most people; it takes no thought, no energy, no insight, no good works, no virtue at all . Many vicious, despicable people make babies and then torture them once they arrive. You just need the animal parts in good working order and they will happen automatically. I don't know of any version of morality that considers that a virtue.

Apparently, people confuse two types of behavior and treat them as one. On the one hand, there's making the baby, bringing it into existence. On the other, there's taking care of the child and doing it well. If someone does a great job of raising a c hild, he or she is worthy of praise. But there are plenty of people who make a babies, keep them, and don't take care of them properly; these people should be condemned for mistreating a helpless and innocent human being.

But choosing not to make a baby is very different from neglecting or abusing a child. Yet sometimes it seems as though these two behaviors are considered equally bad.

I'll conclude now by simply listing some questions that many parents seem to have avoided considering until it was too late.

Who really wants kids, and how can they know? People who are happy with their work and hobbies, but still feel a desperate longing for children which babysitting cannot relieve, are probably the kind of people who would be miserable without children. These people should still consider carefully the amount of time, money, mental and physical energy, etc., which children require before they make their final decision. Once the child is here, it is too late.

Questions Potential Parents Should Ask ThemselvesAside from questions like "Will I keep a Downs' Syndrome baby or put it up for adoption?" there are other, nonstandard questions that I suggest that people ask themselves. Here are some:

1. Do I recognize that each child is an individual with its own personality and preferences, and that I can only influence these to a limited extent?

2. Do I really LIKE children? Do I enjoy playing all levels of children's games? Do I enjoy being with someone who is frequently rambunctious, loud, uninhibited, deliberately trying, and who requires my constant supervision?

3. Do I enjoy the idea of parenting? Specifically, do I enjoy the idea of correcting someone else, feeling like I have to correct someone else, monitoring another person's behavior and finding creative and sensitive ways of expressing the same thing over and over until it is understood?

4. Does a disrupted sleep schedule bother me? Or am I the type of person who gets irritated or ill if my 11:30-8:00 schedule is shifted or interrupted? Do I take the irritation out on other people? How will I feel when the baby cries at 2:00 and th en at 5:00? Would I ever feign sleep while my partner tends to the baby?

5. Is a committed relationship my style, or do I tend to have friends and lovers for a while and then move on when I lose interest? How do I feel about starting a close and intimate relationship with an unknown person with unknown interests (i.e., th e child) that will last the rest of my life?

6. When I daydream about being a parent, am I picturing the child at a certain age? How do I feel about children at other ages? Do I fully realize that a rambunctious 13-year-old will be my responsibility just as surely as the cuddly newborn is? Am I interested in 13-year-olds?

7. When I daydream about having a child, do I picture the child doing certain kinds of activities, such as little league? How do I feel about the child engaging in activities that I am not interested in, strongly dislike, or disapprove of? (E.g., if I enjoyed contact sports as a child, will I be disoriented by my son's love of the piano and interior decorating? Will I need to "keep trying" if I have a girl?)

8. Do I lose my temper with people who don't catch on immediately? How will that translate into a parent-child situation?

9. Do I expect to be such a wonderful parent that I will never have to discipline my splendid child, or do I expect to make mistakes that I will see reflected in my child's behavior? How will I treat the child when I realize that something I have don e — such as lying to my child — has interfered with his or her purity of spirit?

10. If you are considering "giving" your lover or spouse children, though you don't especially want them, on the condition that he or she take over most of the responsibility for their daily nurture, have you considered the idea that your partner might fall ill, die, or leave you with the kids? Do you have a fallback plan for that eventuality? Or are you hoping that you will become more interested in caring for the children in such a case, or perhaps that you will be able to quickly meet another pers on who will take full responsibilty for them while you do the things that are more important to you?

11. Is your principle reason for having children that you and your lover want to "make something together" or "make something that will be part of both of us"? If so, do you also love _children_? What if the child's personality and interests doesn't much resemble either of yours — will the fact that it has half of each of your chromosomes be enough for you?

12. Do you have extra money that you don't think you'll be using for anything else? Or do you expect your years with your child to be years of "sacrifice"? If the latter, are you accustomed to "hardship" or do you think it is possible that you will r esent the cost of the child who is preventing you from buying other kinds of luxuries?

Living in an industrialized, informationalized society, we have the luxury and the responsibility to think about children as real human beings. We have the luxury and responsibility to assess our own worth without reference to any potential l ives we are able to create. You have the luxury and the responsibility to think about it before you commit.

Is it possible to live a full and happy life without children? The answer depends on who you are. For at least some people, the answer is "Absolutely!"

The interesting question remaining, then, is, "Who are you?"

"It truly is the one commonality that every designation of humans you can think of has, there's at least one asshole."
--Me
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