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Childbirth injuries

Posted by yurble 
Childbirth injuries
December 11, 2010
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/dec/10/torn-apart-by-childbirth

Should they talk about it more? Less? Nobody seems to agree.
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And there are more stories like these – lots more. Two years ago a poster called Cyee started a thread on "birth injuries" on Mumsnet while she was lying in bed after surgical repair for a fistula. More than 1,395 posts have since been added. Under the veil of anonymity that web-chat allows, women pour out the pain, and tragedies, that they have hitherto suffered in silence: some tell how they can't bear to be touched, let alone have sex, a year and more on from the birth. Yet more tell of how they wouldn't – couldn't – contemplate a second child, so terrible was the physical fallout from the first.

Some of the women posting feel mothers-to-be need more information about birth injuries and how to avoid them; others say it is unfair to scare pregnant women, because injuries of the severity they are suffering are very rare. It is hard to pin down statistics, because no one collates them centrally: but Michelle Thornton, consultant colorectal surgeon for NHS Lanarkshire, says third- and fourth-degree tears happen in 3% of vaginal deliveries in countries such as the UK.

Not all these, of course, cause permanent or long-term damage: but some do, and what the Mumsnet posters agree on is that suffering a birth injury is a peculiarly lonely experience: outside of cyberspace, it's rarely mentioned.

Is it common or is it rare?
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Thornton is convinced the incidence is far higher than is generally thought. "One study found that between 25 and 40% of patients will have a birth injury of some kind if you actually look for it," she says. "It's much more widespread than anyone believes."

The part I can't figure out is why it seems to be a mystery to anyone that giving birth can cause obstetric fistula. When some women in the comment thread suggested that this was putting them off having children, they got this lovely bingo:
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I felt the same way, but my pregnancy was a little happy accident.

My birth and labour were incredibly bloody painful, though thankfully quick and the physical effects were minor and short lived. I was lucky. The child it resulted in is one of the crowning achievements of my life. He WAS worth it, though I will admit that the whole process was traumatic enough (in my case mentally rather than physically) to essentially silence my biological clock.
I'm constantly asked when I'm having another. The answer every time is, never.

At least there is some questioning as to why childbirth is being promoted at all:
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Good article. Even though I am squirming now just imagining these injuries. I have been very ambivalent about childbirth (I am 37, married, and have been fiercely avoiding giving birth for the last decade). Now I am almost convinced I do not want to do it. However my question is - why are most men and women so passionately promoting childbirth ? What is driving them ? I keep getting these pitying or disapproving looks from people when I say I don't want children. They are trying to convince me that I am missing something very important in my life. ... Maybe "nature" made childbirth difficult so that all women do *not* reproduce ? Isn't that an interesting idea ?

I honestly can say that I don't spend much time thinking of childbirth injuries--it's never factored into my decision to remain childfree. But I wonder how there can be so much ignorance about it in the general public, when even I'm aware of it, despite never researching or contemplating it. Do most people just live their lives in a bubble without the slightest bit of curiosity?
Re: Childbirth injuries
December 11, 2010
I cemented my CF decision the day I watched a lovely birthing video in sex education, I was 11 or 12. I look at it and thought "that is NOT right" and "No fucking way" and that was that. I never wanted kids but that gross video convinced me 100% never to. I have to say I only realised the extent of damage that is commonly done to a woman's vagina/vulva once I started going on CF sites, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise large object+small hole = tearing.

I feel awfully sorry for these women. I know they made their choice and all that but I do believe these issues should be made a bigger deal of. Too many people sleepwalk through life and that comes to their decisions regarding children.
Re: Childbirth injuries
December 11, 2010
I think childbirth is made difficult for a good reason.

To keep women from breeding like sex-crazed rabbits and destroying the planet as a result, too.smile rolling left righteyes2
Re: Childbirth injuries
December 11, 2010
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Banshee
I think childbirth is made difficult for a good reason.

To keep women from breeding like sex-crazed rabbits and destroying the planet as a result, too.smile rolling left righteyes2

I guess there will always be some people who think that natural = beautiful, and something that should be done as often as possible. But I think this poster covered the absurdity of that:

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Do inform your brother-in-law about the birth process of the spotted hyena. Birth canal a foot long with a hair-pin bend and they give birth through their clitoris. One in five die during their first birthing, and 60% of the cubs are lost. And it's all totally natural!
Where people get the idea that Nature is flawless, I'll never know...

I guess I did actually learn something from this article. Fascinating. Humans should consider themselves lucky...

There is one important aspect of hyena behavior, however, that cannot be said to be easy: reproduction. This is explored by biological anthropologist Christine Drea and colleagues at Duke University in Durham, North Carolina. Hyena females have a unique reproductive tract, one that makes copulation so difficult, and giving birth so torturous, that it's surprising the animals haven't gone extinct.

The female spotted hyena lacks an external vagina. Instead, she urinates, copulates and gives birth through the tip of a penis-like clitoris so enormous that males and females are almost impossible to distinguish. The clitoris has a urethra, but a urethra, however large, is hardly a good substitute for a vagina. Females have such trouble during delivery that many first pregnancies result in stillbirths.

Despite this, the hyena is highly successful -- a fact all the more surprising given that the male faces a "mechanical challenge" (in the dryly descriptive term of the researchers) not only in getting into the right position to copulate (underneath the female) but in inserting his penis into the female's clitoris. And the female's fiery temperament only adds to his difficulties. Hyena females are strongly dominant over males, who approach their aggressive mates displaying what Drea characterizes as real fear.


However the penis-like clitoris exacts a severe penalty during a mother's first birth, because its structure constitutes a severely constricting birth canal. Thus, cubs in a female's first litter often die from suffocation while passing through the birth canal.

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fe20020919rh.html
http://www.dukenews.duke.edu/2002/11/dreahyena1102.html
Re: Childbirth injuries
December 11, 2010
Wow...everybody hates hyenas, including nature, it seems! saying 'wtf' How bizarre.
Re: Childbirth injuries
December 11, 2010
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KitsNotKids
Wow...everybody hates hyenas, including nature, it seems! saying 'wtf' How bizarre.

No, I'm sure the hyenas enjoy it.
Re: Childbirth injuries
December 11, 2010
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KitsNotKids
I cemented my CF decision the day I watched a lovely birthing video in sex education, I was 11 or 12. I look at it and thought "that is NOT right" and "No fucking way" and that was that. I never wanted kids but that gross video convinced me 100% never to. I have to say I only realised the extent of damage that is commonly done to a woman's vagina/vulva once I started going on CF sites, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise large object+small hole = tearing.

I feel awfully sorry for these women. I know they made their choice and all that but I do believe these issues should be made a bigger deal of. Too many people sleepwalk through life and that comes to their decisions regarding children.



One of those PBS childbirth documentaries reached out and grabbed me when I was about 8 or 9. It's one of those things that you wish that you could UNsee, but can't. I'll never forget it either OR the participants becaused it's seered into my brain, the whole damned thing. They were this 30ish hippie looking couple that were ate up with the uglies, with the long scraggly hair, pasty faced blank stares, and flower necklace wearing types. It's likely that they had a clunker VW painted pink and orange with daisy applique' pasted on and "PLJ" spray painted all over it. Their home probably consisted of shared living space in an abandoned warehouse with 4 or 5 other couples who were protesting Vietnam, growing their own pot in their vegetable gardens, and 10-12 little mini-hippy yard apes running about barefoot.Duh with bratsd

The FUGLY woman already had several kyds, although after the unveiling of her ENORMOUS, gray, and tattered twat, even an 8 year old could have figured that out. One particularly gross thing that I remember was her out of control pubic hair which began on and around her MASSIVE belly extending down into the baybee grove, out, across, and all down her thighs. I remember thinking that her entire twat region looked like an Orangutan's that I had recently seen at the zoo. Anyway, as if that visual hadn't been enough, it went on to show her with her legs scrunched up in the stirrups panting and grunting until it "crowned", which I thought was especially disgusting. Then the damned thing just gushed out with all of the entrail looking shit and the husband(or whatever) just dragged the gelatinous mess up across her hairy belly as it WAILED from it's gaping piehole and helped it latch onto an elongated, purple, engorged udder and it immediately began suckling.:gross


I was so disturbed by it that after 40 years, I still can't erase it from my memory.:smn

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If YOU are the "exception" to what I am saying, then why does my commentary bother you so much?
I don't hate your kids, I HATE YOU!
Re: Childbirth injuries
December 11, 2010
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yurble
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KitsNotKids
Wow...everybody hates hyenas, including nature, it seems! saying 'wtf' How bizarre.

No, I'm sure the hyenas enjoy it.

waving hellolarious two faces puking at the same time.
Anonymous User
Re: Childbirth injuries
December 11, 2010
The whole process is revolting. I once considered a career in Obs & Gynae and have had the joy of shoehorning babies out with forceps, slicing through vaginal walls with sharp scissors, trying to put horrendous tears together again and attempting to reduce rectal prolapses when the whole damn lot just falls out post delivery..
Forceps are a particular abomination. How anyone could possibly remain sane after having a set of bloody great metal tongs inserted into one of the most sensitive parts of their body, followed by having their vagina opened (sometimes on both sides) with scissors,followed by a whole load of hauling and pulling?
It is utterly horrendous & something that very few people would willingly subject themselves to if they knew exactly what could happen.
I have seen women end up with colostomies after tears refused to heal & massive fistulas developed. I have seen two women haemorrhage to death after giving birth in spite of frantic efforts to save them. I have had elderly women weep in gynae clinics at the memory of their childbirth experiences.
Even the 'normal' deliveries were accompanied by screams that would waken the dead, split vaginal walls and buckets of blood, mucus & indescribable goo. Natural? Aye right. So is are compound fractures,metastatic cancer and congestive cardiac failure & I wouldn't bloody want any of them either.

The stories at the postnatal clinic are just as bad. Faecal incontinence. Uncontrollable farting. Rancid episiotomy scars that need resuturing. Sex lives wrecked for good. Women too terrified even to look at their perineum in a mirror.
And then there's mastitis, breast abscesses, retained products of conception, urinary infections and all the other little delights that can follow.
I'd rather have fibroids!!
Re: Childbirth injuries
December 11, 2010
The irony is that our brains have grown so large (but you can hardly tell this in a lot of people) that passing the infant's head through the birth canal often became fatal for the mother. So much for "nature," since death is perfectly natural. Thanks to modern medicine, women in the West do not die in childbirth, as they formerly did in droves. Nature does not equal "nice"! eye rolling smiley
Re: Childbirth injuries
December 11, 2010
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ShimmyMuse
The irony is that our brains have grown so large (but you can hardly tell this in a lot of people) that passing the infant's head through the birth canal often became fatal for the mother. So much for "nature," since death is perfectly natural. Thanks to modern medicine, women in the West do not die in childbirth, as they formerly did in droves. Nature does not equal "nice"! eye rolling smiley


I hate the moo-speak when it involves something gross being okay because it's "natural" like childbirth, udder feeding, free range shitting-peeing, etc......A gangrenous leg rotting off, corpses decaying, flies laying maggots on shit, buzzards plucking the eyes out of a dead skunk, wild animals toting off rotting carcasses, cats gobbling up afterbirth, and dogs eating cat shit are all "natural" too. However, that doesn't mean that any of it is necessarily a desirable thing to watch, experience, or participate in.

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If YOU are the "exception" to what I am saying, then why does my commentary bother you so much?
I don't hate your kids, I HATE YOU!
Re: Childbirth injuries
December 11, 2010
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yurble
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KitsNotKids
Wow...everybody hates hyenas, including nature, it seems! saying 'wtf' How bizarre.

No, I'm sure the hyenas enjoy it.



Re: Childbirth injuries
December 11, 2010
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KitsNotKids
Wow...everybody hates hyenas, including nature, it seems! saying 'wtf' How bizarre.

Hyenas are relentless beasts, that's why. I think that if there's a hell, that's where hyenas come from.

As for the OT, I was in EMT school when I witnessed my first shitsack-birth on film. I came thisclose to passing out, literally. Mind you, prior to that, I had seen films on arms in augers, pencils jammed in eyeballs, horrendous car accidents - none of which scared me as badly as the childshitting. Sure, I was upset and had empathy for the latter, but for the womben giving birth, I was like, THAT'S SO NOT FUCKING WORTH IT! And they showed the maggot afterwards, with it's gaping maw and that excruciating disgusting squalling, and that sealed the deal for me - NEVER EVER EVER!

Before going to EMT school, I did decide that I didn't want baybees (I never liked them to begin with.) Seeing that film sealed the deal for me.
Re: Childbirth injuries
December 12, 2010
Well of course no one tells women about childbirthing injuries - if they knew what could happen, hardly anyone would make more babies for Gawd's army. And we can't be having a declining birth rate, now can we?
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Women should be educated on all possible complications of childbirth, even death. Adhering to an "It won't happen to me" mindset isn't going to protect your ass from a uterine rupture and subsequent hemorrhage. Granted, any woman wanting to get knocked up should research this shit beforehand, but such information should still be presented straightforwardly.
*
Nobody has issues bitching about the risks and complications from, say, gastric bypass. Or any cosmetic procedure (this includes stuff like tattooing and piercing too). But everyone wants evryone else to think pregnancy is safe and easy since it's taboo to say anything negative about birth or babies. Shit, even now with our access to advanced medical care, women in the U.S. still die annually in childbirth.
Re: Childbirth injuries
December 12, 2010
Quote
kidlesskim

The FUGLY woman already had several kyds, although after the unveiling of her ENORMOUS, gray, and tattered twat, even an 8 year old could have figured that out. One particularly gross thing that I remember was her out of control pubic hair which began on and around her MASSIVE belly extending down into the baybee grove, out, across, and all down her thighs. I remember thinking that her entire twat region looked like an Orangutan's that I had recently seen at the zoo. Anyway, as if that visual hadn't been enough, it went on to show her with her legs scrunched up in the stirrups panting and grunting until it "crowned", which I thought was especially disgusting. Then the damned thing just gushed out with all of the entrail looking shit and the husband(or whatever) just dragged the gelatinous mess up across her hairy belly as it WAILED from it's gaping piehole and helped it latch onto an elongated, purple, engorged udder and it immediately began suckling.:gross


I was so disturbed by it that after 40 years, I still can't erase it from my memory.:smn

hysterical laughterz hysterical laughterz hysterical laughterz hysterical laughterz hysterical laughterz hysterical laughterz hysterical laughterz hysterical laughterz hysterical laughterz hysterical laughterz

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Shauna's like a gluten-free Jim Jones for dumb, lifeless middle-aged women. I swear, this bitch could set fire to a orphanage and they would applaud her for bringing them light. ~ Miss Hannigan
Re: Childbirth injuries
December 12, 2010
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thom_c



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Shauna's like a gluten-free Jim Jones for dumb, lifeless middle-aged women. I swear, this bitch could set fire to a orphanage and they would applaud her for bringing them light. ~ Miss Hannigan
Re: Childbirth injuries
December 12, 2010


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I walk the path of life to my own rhythm, my own beat-if you don't like it, step off and find your own damn song!
Re: Childbirth injuries
December 12, 2010
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KABA



waving hellolariouswaving hellolariouswaving hellolarious

MY GOD!!! How old is that kyd? He looks like a baybee in the face, but surely he was smaller when he came out! He was probably born to one of those pig faces who developed gestational diabetes and the kyd probably has it too.eye rolling smiley

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If YOU are the "exception" to what I am saying, then why does my commentary bother you so much?
I don't hate your kids, I HATE YOU!
Re: Childbirth injuries
December 12, 2010
KABA, you made me throw up in my mouth! DISGUSTING! The thing looks like it's been scared by a hairy spider or something. Positively FUGLY.
Re: Childbirth injuries
December 12, 2010
I have read that even right after the woman has had the babee, that some fathers will come to visit the woman actually have sex with her right after she had the baby. As if they must be so sex mad they cannot control themselves? They cannot wait to makeher preggoo again?

I am so glad to be a man when I read stories like this and yes we are wusses. I would be turned off childbirth just the the birth scene in Mad Men where the nurse says "Mrs. Draper, I am going to shave you and give you a quick-lo enema" and then you hear a blood curdling scream i:scrn the background. And that is not much from what you people write.
Re: Childbirth injuries
December 13, 2010
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mr. neptune
I have read that even right after the woman has had the babee, that some fathers will come to visit the woman actually have sex with her right after she had the baby. As if they must be so sex mad they cannot control themselves? They cannot wait to makeher preggoo again?

If she's the oopsing type, perhaps they just find that the safest time to have sex with her, since she's unlikely to get pregnant when she has an infant (not impossible, though), short of when she actually was pregnant.
Re: Childbirth injuries
December 13, 2010
Then a guy like that must be pretty desperate and horny if he has to have sex at a time like that. If he can't trust her to use the birth control then why is he F'ing her at all?
Re: Childbirth injuries
December 13, 2010
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mr. neptune
Then a guy like that must be pretty desperate and horny if he has to have sex at a time like that. If he can't trust her to use the birth control then why is he F'ing her at all?

This is a question oft asked in CF circles, but based on the available evidence I would conclude that the majority of men either are that desperate, or are just indifferent about children.
Re: Childbirth injuries
December 13, 2010
What do women expect...it is akin to driving a Suburban into a doggy door. Sure the frame will give and allow it in, but the extensive damage makes the asset worthless.

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From a bottle cap message on a Magic Hat #9 beer: Condoms Prevent Minivans
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I want to pick up a bus full of unruly kids and feed them gummi bears and crack, then turn them loose in Hobby Lobby to ransack the place. They will all be wearing T shirts that say "You Could Have Prevented This."
Re: Childbirth injuries
December 13, 2010
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kidlesskim
One particularly gross thing that I remember was her out of control pubic hair which began on and around her MASSIVE belly extending down into the baybee grove, out, across, and all down her thighs....
I was so disturbed by it that after 40 years, I still can't erase it from my memory.:smn

Oy, I'm heading to bed now. Wanna bet what descriptive words are going to be circling my brain like water going down the toilet? :lips

I bet antelopes could hide in that undergrowth.
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