#1892 Discipline-Phobia

People try to use the "I'll call 911" threat from sproggen as an excuse to not discipline. That has been an overused excuse. Lack of discipline was here long before h*llish brats did call to falsely report abuse. No one wants to say "no" to their offspring believing that being a "friend" is better than being a good parent who is to rear a child into being a responsible adult.

The baby boomers and Generation X (my generation) have become the worst people when it comes to lack of discipline. These parents are wealthier than the parents of past generations.

Gone is the idea that a kid/teen is to actually work for the "extras". Expensive clothing and accessories are purchased. Most of today's teenagers turn their noses up at working in a fast-food place or other minimum wage jobs for the goodies despite having no skills for higher-paying positions. Like I spoke about with friends over a week ago, I really do fear what this society will be like when we get pretty old to carry on and this generation is to take over...

Wow...I've never heard a kid say they'll call 911 if Mommy tells him "no". When did they start doing that? The worst I've heard is kids who will scream "You're not my mommy!" when the mother tries to discipline the kid.

People need to get out of the mindset that spanking or a smack on the hand is not a form of abuse - I'm sure some parents are afraid to discipline their brats because they fear having CPS come to their door about reported abuse. From what I've seen and heard, CPS doesn't even bother coming unless there's a report of kids starving, bleeding, or dying. I digress.

Parents need to pull their heads out of their asses and realize that being their kid's best friend does nothing beneficial for the kid. Parents are just that - PARENTS. Why is it so fucking hard for them to act like it?

My mom never hesitated to give either me or my little brother a good smack in the face if we were misbehaving in public. It got the message across that we were to behave and were embarrassed in the process.

Excellent post! It's a relief to see a real live doctor-type endorsing discipline for sprogs. How else are they going to learn? Let's face it, kids are bundles of pure Id. Better that the parents try to restrain their kids before the "big bad world" has to do it for them.

There have been so many damned TV shows with scripts that make spanking a brat look like you are putting them on the rack or using hot lead in their ears that anyone who wanted to be a PNB is now spooked on child discipline.

Add to that all of the psychobabble bullshit 'studies' looking at the long-term effects of corporal punishment that have been debunked by more serious and capable researchers without an agenda.

My PNB cousin's son became unruly one night and she told him either knock it off or he would get a spanking. He told her he would call 911 and report her for "child abuse". She told him he would have to make it to the phone first, took him by his ear and soaped his mouth for using backtalk and sent him to his room. He came out later and apologized to her. He never mouthed off to her again like that and his grades are good and his chores are done. I have no doubt that he realizes that cousin and her husband will follow-through on their discipline and the son would find it hard to sit down for a few weeks. He is generally a good kid, but now and then he does need correction and they do not mess around with empty threats.

And that's a big part of the problem, IMO--empty threats. If you say, "If you do X, Y will happen" then you must make sure that Y happens if X occurs. Kids need to be taught that there are consequences to their actions, otherwise they will not learn how to develop critical thinking skills.

Did anyone see the recent South Park episode where all the kids have been diagnosed with ADHD and are all zonked out on Ritalin? Chef shows the town's parents a video by a doctor who has a radical new method of curing ADD and behavior problems. It shows the doctor "administering the treatment", i.e., slapping the kids in the face the minute they start whining and carrying on! Freaking hilarious!

ADD/ADHD is a true disorder despite what some think, but I have a lot of trouble as a trained epidemiologist believing that it is as prevalent as presented. ADD/ADHD is all too simple a crutch for bad parenting, and I do believe that some breeders actually get off on the sympathy routine that comes with having an ADD/ADHD brat.

The diagnostic criteria for ADHD, per DSM-IV(TR) are spelled out very nicely at the CDC website: http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/symptom.htm, and are very specific.

If you note the high rate of comorbid conditions, such as ODD (oppositional defiance disorder), OCD, depression/anxiety of various kinds) and conduct disorder, you can see where ADHD becomes a sewer-like diagnosis for those breeders who suddenly realize they have done a shitty job of raising their brats.

I think the treatment results for adult ADHD are much more reliable and significant. The bratty behavior from overpermissive parenting for most sprogs suggests that a good spanking would do a lot more than drug therapy.

exactly, this is what i have been trying to explain to people, yes i agree there is add, and adhd, but in such a lesser amount. its easy for kids to be "diagnosed" with them, when they could be smarter or suffer from reading problems dyslexia etc etc.. its easier to medicate that solve the problem, looking back on my past the modern school diagnosis for add and adhd fits me.. i got bored easily, there wasnt much of a challenge to me, so i used to sit after finishing my work and look out the window or doodle.. i hated reading grapes of wrath and of mice and men, they werent books i enjoyed they were boring and dealt with feelings..

and have you noticed most of the new sufferers are boys. part of the problem i feel is education is getting more anti male, or pro female, boys arent doing as well, becuase they dont understand the structure, so you get boys behaving badly because they are confused dont understand etc..

and of course you get the news from tv that boys are bad/evil and need to be medicated for the sake of the women..

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I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

mercurior Wrote:
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> and have you noticed most of the new sufferers are
> boys. part of the problem i feel is education is
> getting more anti male, or pro female, boys arent
> doing as well, becuase they dont understand the
> structure, so you get boys behaving badly because
> they are confused dont understand etc..
>
I know this is a popular new theory, but I can't say I agree with it. There have been female schoolteachers since the 1800s - it's not like women have suddenly taken over education. Also, schools used to be a lot more strict than they are now, with discipline, rote learning, corporal punishment, etc. So how can people complain about "structure" when there is less structure than ever in today's schools?

DrDan, I have no doubt that ADD/ADHD are real disorders and that there are actually people out there suffering from them. But have you noticed that more and more kids have been diagnosed with it since the schools have gotten rid of recess? If you don't let the kids run around and blow off steam every few hours, of course they're going to be fidgety, unable to pay attention, etc. (i.e., the "classic symptoms" of ADD/ADHD.) Heck, I'm a non-ADD adult and if I don't get outside and walk around during my lunch I get fidgety and I'm unable to concentrate!

There's something that I've always wanted to ask someone in the medical profession regarding the "epidemic" of ADD/ADHD we in the US seem to have on our hands. Do you think that in most cases, the ADD/ADHD symptoms that parents see are actually caused by most kids' diet of crap food (chicken nuggets, Lunchables, etc.) and lack of exercise? The reason I ask is because my cousin Steven was a real little terror, getting into fights, couldn't sit still--all of the symptoms of ADD/ADHD that I've read about. No amount of discipline administered by my Aunt Cheryl seemed to work, so in desperation she took him to the doctor. Doc asked, "How much sugar is in his diet?" Aunt Cheryl wasn't sure, so the doc had her keep a log for a couple of weeks of what Steven ate and then come back in to see him. She was amazed at how much sugar the kid was getting! Even stuff that she thought was healthy turned out to have lots of sugar in it. So the doc told her to cut Steven's sugar consumption in half and see if that helped. Aunt Cheryl did, and in a couple of months Steven was a whole different person. He was much calmer and his attention span/concentration really improved.

Personally, I think that a lot of parents with ADD/ADHD kids are actually in the same boat as my Aunt Cheryl; they are feeding their kids too much sugar, chemicals and other crap and that's making their kids all crazy. But I will defer to your expert opinion, DrDan. What do you think?

its got nothing to do with female teachers, its about the way school is taught, todays schooling is more focused on the emotional content of books, etc.. where boys arent exactly able to connect to that kind of teaching. if schools are supposed to work for everyone, then WHY are so many boys not going to college?

are you saying they have increased in stupidity, or are the courses now not focused on boys needs, but on girls needs instead.

there is less structure in schools, bad kids cant be punished,the problem is LESS structure, if a kid is punished then they parent claim abuse etc and sues.

that is the feminised teaching and since when can teachers teach what they want to, they HAVE to obey the head and the educational authority. ask any teacher what it is like today, and compare that to the past.

as has been said so many times, girls were being let down by education, now boys are being let down as well. thats why there is so many, bad kids diagnosed with ADD- ADHD.

boredom, teaching irrelevant crap, things boys cant understand easily. boys are not girls, and girsl are not boys, they have to be taught seperatly.

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I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

There has always been children who could have been diagnosed as ADD and ADHD but it was rarely that fact that these labels were put on children. They most certainly not in the levels as are being diagnosed these days. As an ex-teacher I never came across it except that the badly behaved children were simply that, naughty, and undisciplined. They were not doped up to their eyeballs in drugs and an unfortunate label on them. They were not fed chemicals in the processed foods their mothers are giving them because they simply do not want to or even are able to cook proper meals. In fact they rarely sit down as a family at the table to eat and socialise, they sit in front of TV's or computers instead, is there any wonder they children lose the ability to think logically or work things out without getting into tantrums.

There is an increasing amount of female teachers in the schools, male teachers are disadvantaged these daysamd are looked upon with suspicion because they want to teach in schools, people unfortunately only associate paedophiles with males but that is totally incorrect, the most abborent one's I ever came across were females. The male teachers could not deal with problems without the risks attached to doing so.

There are teachers that I have come across who teach in mixed classes who admit they don't like little boys and it is obvious with their actions that it is correct what they are saying. eg. one teacher gave pictures to the class to celebrate a special event. The girls got larger and nicer pictures, the boys got very small ones. That was totally unacceptable and this is not the only way they show. Not giving boys homework but giving it to the girls, shortage of books, so making the boys either share or wait for a book in order to complete their work.

Naughty children are not disciplined in the home, usually because of absent mothers who would prefer to be in the workplace than to nurture and care for their children themselves. Anyone can do that so long as it isn't them. Now I do understand that some mothers have to work but the majority do not. at least until they child is of school age, it is during this vital first five years of their lives that children need the structure and discipline taught to them at home by their mothers.

There is basically no structure in the homes, none in the schools, no formal classwork, no teaching of tables, spellings, which OK some might find boring but they are the most useful structured form of teaching, never mind them using calculators and computers, they should be able to do formal lessons as well.

Where there is no structure, discipline there is chaos.

I sure hope "ex-teacher" is not an English grammar teacher. No wonder kids aren't learning anything! Yikes!

In the U.S., I do not believe teaching has been considered anything close to a male-dominated profession for the past 100+ years at least. One of the main forms of employment for women pre-WWII was teaching, and I recall maybe 15% of my teachers being male in the 70's and 80's. I do not think the gender of the teacher has much bearing on the quality of teaching to boys or girls, it goes deeper than that.

For the most part, people do not like enteracting with out of control hellions. If you are an out of control hellion, more likely than not, your teacher isn't going to enjoy teaching you. You take time away from the other students and take time away from the administrative duties of the teacher. If you are teaching a class of 35 students, and 5 of those students are out of control hellions, you can bet that those 5 students aren't going to get the same level of attention that the other 30 students are getting. They'll either get more attention, or less. Whether or not they're out of control from a diagnosed disorder, parental mismanagement or any other reason probably doesn't matter one iota to the teacher who has to deal with it.

Also, parental micromanagement of education has increased quite a bit in the past 20 years. If your child is doing poorly in school, it is your duty as a parent (now) to go down to that school and strong arm the teacher into giving your child a higher grade than they've earned. It does not matter if your child has spent the entire semester sleeping in the back row of the classroom and hasn't done one iota of work. It will make them feel bad about themselves if they get that F they earned, so as a parent it is your duty to make sure that teacher changes the F to a C.

Then compare your activity level as a child, and what you ate, to the activity levels and food consumption of children these days. How much time did you spend sitting around inside the house when you were a kid? Did your parents drive you 4 blocks to school? Did you have outdoor recess, or experience the "joys" of gym class? Most kids today are lucky if they have a couple hours a week of physical education in school. If their parent's let them play outdoors it's only at pre-arranged play dates, team sports or structured "lessons". Nowdays, 32 ounces of soda is considered a "normal" sized beverage. 20+ years ago? That would have been the entire soda consumption for two days for most adults.

There are kids with ADD/ADHD, but like Dr. Dan says, that should be a relatively rare and specific diagnosis. Unfortunately, it is an easy label to put on all misbehavior. Few parents will accept that their child could possibly misbehave due to their lazy parenting, and doctors are loathe to put themselves in the position of insulting the parents of their patients. Slapping an ADD/ADHD diagnosis on a squirmy, ill-mannered child is a lot more palatable to the parent who is unwilling to actually take the time and effort to properly raise a child.

I also am loath to blame this entire mess on mothers not being in the home. Tens of thousdands of children were raised "latch key" in the 70's and 80's, who turned out just fine, except they are now the indulgent parents who want to be their kid's best friend. It's not that mothers don't care to discipline their kids, but want everyone else to. It's that parents don't want ANYONE disciplining their children, because children are beings who will learn naturally on their own. Discipline and structure will only stifle their natural creativity and learning processes, and as parents they know what's best.

I cannot speak to the teaching profession, but I can address some of the issues related to the "epidemic" of ADHD.

Roughly, these issues can be segregated as follows:

1) The epidemiology of ADHD has not changed significantly in the past twenty years, despite all of the hype and garbage that you hear from breeder-driven groups about the diagnosis. The prevalence rate (existing cases) has remained relatively constant, while the incidence rate (newly diagnosed cases) has increased. This kind of mismatch is not uncommon when you have a diagnosis that carries with it a certain cachet or social status. When the SSRIs came out for depression, we saw more and more depression being diagnosed in a similar fashion.

2) There have been no significant advances in the testing or diagnostic criteria for ADHD in the last fifteen years since the DSM-IV was published. The criteria remain pretty much the same as the DMS-III in many respects, and I find it hard to believe that we are using any more sensitive or specific measures to diagnose the illness than are presently available.

3) There is some evidence, though not confirmed, that ADHD is a diagnosis often driven by a mismatch between unrealistic parental and teacher expectations and desires and the brat's lack of potential or behavior. In the words of one speaker, you have teachers and breeders who think the brat should behave or perform in a manner that is not in keeping with their aptitude and self-control. This is fairly obvious, especially when you hear the number of pediatricians and family practice docs who talk about being "bullied" into diagnosing a brat as having ADHD by a teacher and/or breeders. There is a study going on right now to look at this affect.

4) One of the most interesting analyses that I have seen was a marketing study that concluded that the rate of growth in pediatric ADHD prescriptions had outstripped the rate of growth in the overall pediatric population, after adjustments were made for: a) adult ADHD patients; 2) brats on multiple medications; and 3) non-ADHD uses of those medications. In other words, when you took into account that adults have ADHD, that some brats receive more than one medication and some of these medications are used for illnesses other than ADHD, there is a mismatch. The marketing study, which is unpublished, suggested that ADHD is a diagnosis that is being "forced".

The one area in which I think we are doing a much better job is in the recognition, diagnosis and treatment of adult-onset ADHD. This is an area where the impact of medications can be truly life-changing and far more beneficial to society than some Ritalinized brat.

One other thing I would add is that some family practice and pediatrics physicians (the two medical specialties that see the vast bulk of ADHD cases) are seriously questioning the validity of the ADHD epidemic. In many cases, there are forces within those movements who are starting to say enough is enough and to resist the pressure from breeders and teachers. I cannot say that I know enough about what is going on within those specialties, but I can assure you that many physicians are starting to get a spine and telling the breeders that most of the ADHD cases are shitty parenting resulting in bratty behavior from stupid kids. This is not going over very well, but a start is a start!

If I'm not mistaken, ex- teacher is from the UK. Some words are spelled differently, there.

Thanks, Dr. Dan. I never really understood ADD/ADHD. For the longest time, I just thought it was a "pop disorder" invented by breeders, and school administrators to weasel out of any sort of accountability.

thats what i gathered, and i am from the UK, and it sounds british.

(why are you saying that the teacher is to blame for spelling things differently scorpio does that mean the message is less coz they spell it differently?? and english grammar actually comes from england so you cant complain.)

i have seen school kids boys in particular i went to an all boys school, start to be taught the emotional content of books, and strangely the exam results have fallen for boys.. boys like adventure books, well most of them, something action packed, not a lot of boys enjoy pride and prejudice its rather boring to them. should boys be forced to read such books, should girls be forced to read westerns.. no.. give them a choice..

thats the best for everyone. its a one size fits all in education at the moment, but people are different. and they should teach differently by gender, thats only logical.. isnt it..

i mean i like sewing, i wanted to study it at school, but they said no your a boy.. i knew a girl who wanted to study car mechanics she couldnt coz she was a girl.. this was in the late 80's. and its only gotten worse.

people dont teach kids what they need to survive in the real world. how do i know just look at the kids they are lost and confused..

i dont blame the teachers, i dont really blame the kids, i blame the educational authorities, for making the lessons worse. teachers do a great job when they are allowed too but they arent allowed too anymore..

thats why there are so many badly behaved kids, and the add adhd route is an excuse for many of these bad parents/bad kids.. of course in america prescriptions of ritalin have increased, which means more money, and some doctors get money (dr dan i dont know if this is true could u enlighten me) to prescribe certain pills over others..

*********************************************************************************************************************************
I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

Excuse me CFScorpio but I do in fact speak correct English not the Americanised version with incorrect spellings, too lazy to put the full number of vowels in it.

How dare you criticise and yes it does have an 's' not a 'z'. I have spent more years teaching English in a true English school than you will ever do. American English only devolved from the original as a result of a wish to simplify the English language,in order to make it slightly easier for immigrants whose first language was not English,as well as borrowing certain aspects of the spellings from these immigrant languages an example of which is the common American usage of the letter Z in words("borrowed" from the German language) and not the original and correct S.

How can you say English grammar is incorrect when you are talking to someone who uses it every day.

You are obviously ignorant of English Grammar as the spelling of words has nothing to do with grammar.

For your information "I sure hope " ,"kids" & "Yikes" as you have posted in your response are hardly good examples of intelligent English usage (either in "English English" or in "American English ") but rather are an intellectually lazy slang usage, sadly so common in a lot of American speech.

Notice that all the world, but America have the same spellings of the English language. Why are they always told by Americans that they are incorrect? The American spellings have only existed for around 250 years. Cant we have intelligent discussions without people always playing 'Grammar and Spelling Police'?

I hate gender assumptions: 'You're female/male, so you must do/like this'. I'm female, and I personally hate romance novels, romance movies, clothes and shoe shopping. They should let people choose what classes they wish to take, and what activities/books, they wish to persue. Instead of assigning a book to a class, why don't they have a choice of say 3 books to study?

It is petty to hassle someone over wording in his/her posts. Lord knows I have many typos and have purposely used bad grammar. This is a safe place for the childfree to grouse or talk about anything else. Too many other CF sites have been taken down by the owners/moderators due to flaming and disrespect among the members.

I think ex-teacher has a good point. Many mothers will have children and not want to deal with them. So they work instead. They aren't doing the reall mom job. Breeders are really bad with this one.

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lab mom

india_darshan Wrote:
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> It is petty to hassle someone over wording in
> his/her posts. Lord knows I have many typos and
> have purposely used bad grammar. This is a safe
> place for the childfree to grouse or talk about
> anything else. Too many other CF sites have been
> taken down by the owners/moderators due to flaming
> and disrespect among the members.

I know spelling is not everyone's strong point. But that person was a TEACHER, for god's sakes! My point was just that if your average teacher can't write well in English, it's not surprising that most kids can't.

CFScorpio Wrote:
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> india_darshan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > It is petty to hassle someone over wording in
> > his/her posts. Lord knows I have many typos and
> > have purposely used bad grammar. This is a safe
> > place for the childfree to grouse or talk about
> > anything else. Too many other CF sites have
> been
> > taken down by the owners/moderators due to
> flaming
> > and disrespect among the members.
>
> I know spelling is not everyone's strong point.
> But that person was a TEACHER, for god's sakes! My
> point was just that if your average teacher can't
> write well in English, it's not surprising that
> most kids can't.

If you want to put the lady down, that is your choice. You may want to realise that many people do type or "speak" differently in an online discussion group or in private conversations than they do in a school or job setting. I know I do it. I work a job where my grammar has to be proficient for the daily activity reports and any unusual incident reports. I have to speak properly to the client. But...I am just "me" in another setting. Shouldn't this be a place where there are no attacks against each other?

Sorry, I'm with CFScorpio on this one. Call it a particularly sensitive subject.

I have a few friends who teach English and/or have English degrees, and they still say things like, "Me and my sister went shopping" or "He had went to school." That drives me up the freaking wall!

Still, there is that old saying about arguing on the internet...