Virginia Tragedy

I'm sure by now everyone here has learned of the shootings at VT. Very sad and very tragic. My thoughts go out to anyone touched by this in any way.

A few things I'd like to mention. After hearing news cast upon news cast, all I hear is about gun control and how it was the skool's fault for not alerting the students that a nut job was lose on the campus. They point fingers at the professors for not doing their job with this kid, place the blame on the school for it, but NOTHING, I mean NOTHING has been mentioned ONCE about this kid's pahrunts. Where the fuck are they? Where the fuck have they been throughout this guy's life? Didn't they see signs that Johnny was fucked up? Were they in a coma all these years?

WHY? WHY is it the school's fault for this guy? WHY is it the professors's faults that he was in school? WHY is it the fault of the fact that guns are legal?

NOW we'll have all the bleeding hearts and gun grabbers out there looking to make a resolution for this but this shit starts at home. Had his pahrunts done a better job and taken this whacko for some help years ago when his weirdness started, this could have been avoided. It is not the fault of the school, the professors, therapists, guns, or whatever. It's his PAHRUNTS fault. Again, BAD PAHRUNTING.

This sort of tragedy only happens in gun culture places.

The idea the Founding Fathers had was when they said "The Right to Bear Arms" this was meant to say the right to raise a militia in times of strife" It was literally taken out of context (surprise, surprise) to mean that every man was entitled to bear arms. No where in the Constitution does it say that every single person should or can have a gun. The Second Amendment actually mentions an organised Militia along with the right to bear arms,

This is why this problem occurs over and over again in the schools and colleges, anyone can buy a gun over the counter and plot and plan against anyone who disagrees with them. I actually do read historical facts.

This nonsense we read is that teachers should be armed with a concealed weapon and can shoot at a pupil in these circumstances, What if they miss and kill the innocent students.

Why did the security/Police not react immediately and not wait 2 hours until after the first two people were killed. if they had reacted as they should have done, then perhaps only the 2 which would still have been a tragedy would have died instead 32 died. Appalling.

i have tried not to post too much about this thing, but most boards most forums most blogs, seem to have a view, and i have been sucked into it on 2 boards,

one commentor on a radio talk said the teacher should be allowed to have concealed weapons, then they could have killed the killer. (i thought hang on, bad kids, mad teacher.. not a good mix).

they will talk and talk but nothing will be done, and more people will die.

next year next month when the next nutter kills 40, it will begin again.

i would say the ease of access of guns,contributed, the blindness of his parents, the blindness of the teachers, the stupidity of the doctors who let him out.. there is not just one thing to blame, its everyone who ignored the warning signs. (of course he bought the gun in 10 -15 mins, and walked out of the store, with the hand gun used to kill.)

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I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

Actually, I think one of the myriad reasons why I don't want children is because it's a total crapshoot whether your kid is going to turn out "normal" or not. I don't think you can blame the parents in this case because being a "good" parent doesn't ensure your kid won't go on a homicidal rampage. I believe Jeffery Dahmer came from a "normal" family - loving, good parents,both still married, etc. and what did they end up with? A serial killer for a son.

horrificat, this trajedy has touched on a reason, albeit different, why I'm reluctant to have kids as well. I can't imagine having a child, raising it, and having some psychopath harm them in this way, or any other way. The world today is much, MUCH worse than it was when I was a kid. You never know if some lunatic is going to bring a gun to class, or if your seemingly kind neighbor is a pedophile, or if good 'ole W is going to piss off the wrong dictator and get our asses nuke back to the middle ages-need I go on? I know myself too well-it would literally destroy me, I completely broke down when my dog had to have emergency surgery a few months ago, so I can't even imagine what a child's death would do to me.

I really don't think you can allocate blame to the school in this case. I too went to a large public university (35,000+ undergrads alone), and there's just no way you can communicate that kind of news en masse-plus, the police had no way of knowing what was going to happen after the dorm shooting. Not to mention that he was a very sick person, but not sick enough to set off enough warnings to get involuntarily committed-either that or he was clever enough to hide them. Same with the parents-yes, some killers were seriously fucked over in the parenting department as kids, but just as many grew up in the nuclear family, complete with a dog and picket fence. It's just totally senseless.

I own a gun, and I am trained and licensed to carry it in a concealed fashion according to law. I carry mine because LA is a nightmare of carjackings, rape, theft and other crimes. I have never used it other than target practice, but if I were in a life threatening situation I would not hesitate to use deadly force.

When I purchased my gun, I went through the required training and licensure procedure and a long waiting period before I could take physical possession of it. I thoroughly support background checks and waiting periods for all guns, but I do not support outright bans on any type of gun just because of public hysteria.

I just do not buy the "gun culture" argument, or the idea that the second amendment is being interpreted incorrectly. There is over 225 years of judicial opinion to the contrary, and it spans across political movements in this country going from right to left. Banning guns does not decrease murder rates, keep women or men from being sexually assaulted or suddenly create a utopian culture. If you look at countries with histories of high violent crime rates and existing bans on guns, killers will resort to other methods. Criminals will always have access to weapons of different kinds despite bans. Washington, DC still has one of the highest gun-related homicide rates in the country, and yet it banned handguns effectively for a very long time. New York and California have tough handgun restrictions, yet violent crime on the two largest coastal cities continues to be a problem. The American psyche is not hard to figure out, because if you ban something it becomes that much more desirable. Hell, just look at the proliferation of internet porn to know that "forbidden fruit" tactic makes the distasteful desirable to Americans.

I am not blaming the gun, but the shooter in this case. The mental health system, if you believe what the news stories are saying, failed massively to warn others about the mental problems that kid is reported to have had. If the university did not know about that kid's problems and it was not told, then it could have done nothing. I will wait for more official word in this instance, like the report requested by Virginia's governor.

If you have ever worked with patients with serious dissociative mental disorders like schizophrenia, you would find them to be a highly resourceful and intelligent lot in their own fashion. They are capable of some remarkably horrible crimes that were planned across long time periods. You could try to limit access to weapons to them, but they would just figure out another way of carrying out their intended crimes or antisocial actions. The only thing that effectively works is institutionalization, but that type of system can be abused badly.

I am not a right winger and I certainly do not want weapons in the hands of criminals, but having the right to protect myself using legally available means is far more important than a knee-jerk reaction that would have us questioning far more than just gun ownership. We have already seen more and more of our rights trampled in the name of public welfare, and this is just one more example of how public hysteria leads to drastic social changes with longer and farther reaching consequences than originally intended. Like the saying goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions with curbs saying "for the good of all".

but if he can get a gun in 15 minutes, then do that, with the information that he was locked up in a mental home for dangerous behaviour, you have to question how thorough other checks could be, what if the neighbour the man in the next car, had these problems, and they managed to get hold of a gun, thats worse than just having guns out there, you have people willing to use them

for me its a broader thing, yes they have have a gun, but governments have bigger guns, do i want to bring a child into a world where, you have terrorists, you have wars, you have possible nuclear conflicts. this adds to my cfness.

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I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

Sorry, this is pretty long, but besides my diary and ranting to friends, I haven't had a real public outlet for this.

Everyone is correct! We all win the big juicy logical thinking prize!
1. It is not the gun's fault, it can not shoot itself. However, with a gun you are more able to kill several dozen people in a short period of time than you would be with a knife, rock or your own bare hands. Though, if you were working within the logic our current judicial system, the people who should be put in jail are the people who sold the guns. Much in the same way drug dealers are put in prison when they sell drugs to a person who then overdoses, or who gives drugs to a 3rd party, who then overdoses.

2. It is not the fault of the school or the police. The initial crime appeared to be a simple domestic dispute gone horribly awry. While many mass shootings have started with the shooter killing those close to them, most domestic shootings do not end up with the person going on a rampage. If the same thing happened in any neighborhood of 26,000 people, there is no way on earth the police would, should or could lock down the entire community. Nor should any public university campus be expeced or required to impliment costly precautions (sirens, guards, automatic lockdown systems) for something that rarely happens.

3. Its not the fault of the parents. I'm sure they raised their distant, cold, loner child in the best way they could. In most ethnic or cultural groups (whites included) mental illness is considered a failure or weakness to be hidden. The non-profit mental health system is pretty much nonexistant execept in the most extreme of cases. He was 23, out of the house, and living on his own. I can tell you for certian that my parents had no idea as to the extent of my own personal mental health hell at the same age, until they got a call from the hospital that I was in the emergency room after a failed suicide attempt. I'd felt that way for years and never told anyone. Eventually it was just too much to go on living that way. If you seriously want to die, you won't tell anyone for fear of being forced to live.

The person to blame for the shooting is....The Shooter. Each time he pulled the trigger, he was making a conscious choice to do it. Yes, even crazy people can make decisions, right or wrong. Unfortunately, since american culture seems to be based on public punishment, most people feel the need to see some living entity apoligise, and face some sort of punishment. Since the shooter is dead, someone else will have to submit.

Some other bullshit we've all probably heard:
"Everyone on campus should have the right to carry a gun". Um, no. Until you can have a large gathering of drunken college students NOT end up in a riot when it's time to go home, I think that's pretty much the worst idea I've ever heard. I live in Wisconsin where we have large groups of drunken college students turning up on the news due to drunken rioting at least 2-5 times a year, these are people who should not be trusted with guns.

"Why didn't they fight back? Where were the Men?" Seriously, when someone is pointing a gun at you, are you going to run at them? And what help will your dead corpse provide, exactly? Statements like this make me think that everyone should have a gun pulled on them at least once. Trust me, it's a life changing experience.

Oh, and about Jeffery Dahmer...his parents never abused him, but from what I've read, he was always very needy in the attention department. When they divorced, started up new families, and left him alone to live in the old family house when he was a Junior or Senior in High School, was when he started down the path of serial killing.

Somehow, I think currently these days mental health is a crapshoot and has little to do with how you are treated by parental figures. It seems as though most kids are now medicated for what used to be normal childhood behavior. I am guessing when alot these kids are no longer on their parents insurance, and have no access to their own insurance (and thusly meds they've been on for most of their lives), we are going to see a rise in these sorts of tragedies.

"Why didn't they fight back? Where were the Men?"

thats what makes me grit my teeth, so men are the ones to fight back, why didnt the women fight back.

but your right, everyone has to take some culpability, in making or letting this happen. a combination of many things, which if one didnt occur them possibly it wouldnt have happened.

apparently there has been another possible shooting in houston at the space centre. no information as yet.

*********************************************************************************************************************************
I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

"Where were the men?" Sorry, that's just asinine-how can anyone even think that? Yes, some people did fight back and lost their lives as a result, which is truly tragic, but that doesn't take anything away from those who were too scared to fight back. Sorry, I'm a woman, but if someone pulls a gun on me, I'm running like hell, and I'd expect the men in my life to do the same thing-the macho culture in this country can get downright stupid at times, as comments like that show.

mercurior Wrote:
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> "Why didn't they fight back? Where were the Men?"
>
>
> thats what makes me grit my teeth, so men are the
> ones to fight back, why didnt the women fight
> back.

I totally agree, Mercurior. Just because someone has a penis that does not mean he is some sort of Super Hero who can fight off a wacko with a gun! I worked fast-food and in convenience stores during my work life. The first thing that is explained in training is to hand over the money and products if robbed. It does not matter if the employee(s) on duty are male or female. We all bleed the same blood and we all can die from gunshot wounds.

Two "conservative" commentators made the point about "where were the men?", and complained that if the men had fought back, instead of just barring doors to keep him out of their classrooms (or from returning to their class rooms to do more shooting) the shooter would have been stopped. Funny thing is, they didn't mention the 76 year old holocaust survivor professor who died while physically barring the shooter from entering his classroom, and allowing some of his students the opportunity to flee via the windows. Another funny thing they failed to mention was that kids nowdays are trained in schools to respond to these situations. When you hear gunshots, you are supposed to close and lock the doors,pull down the blinds and turn off the lights.

Of course, when you are "conservative" nowdays, apparently you also have to check your logical abilities at the door. Stupid assholes.

Feh, I know more moderate conservatives who are not sexist. Heck...I know very Republican people who are not into sexism but the religious right and the anti-woman people tend to get the most press.

In the local paper, there was the usual debate between a conservative columnist, who is a married moo of two sprogs, and a liberal columnist, a single woman. The topic between the two a couple of weeks ago was the issue of the Miss America/Miss USA scandals.

The moo, of course, said it was horrible how adult women are to be chaperoned during the Miss Whatever events but said this was for their own good as little girls need perfect role models to look up to: beautiful women who have never been married & divorced, had a child, or drank too much.

For once, I agreed with the liberal woman - who can tend to go on tangents. She said that Donald Trump judging women's behaviour is laughable as he goes through women like a teen goes through cellphone minutes. How true! Also, the lady said it was so archaic how a woman's sexuality is constantly questioned while a man can do whatever with whomever with no social consequence.

My take is for people to stop watching the Cattle Parade of these Miss America type shows which does participate in women's oppression.