The Black Plague

I saw a very interesting thing on History channel yesterday. It was about how the Black Plague wiped out 1/2 of population. They actually said that such a large population loss brought poor into rich because labor was in short supply and rich had to pay higher price for labor. Poor people were once again able to own farms and groves. Food became plentiful. Technology was advancing at it's quickest rate - machines were needed to replace manual labor.

History has proved that low numbers of people brought good upon everyone. It was during low population counts when disease did not spread and technology has advanced. Lately, it seems like we are being preached exactly the opposite.

Food for thought. They said that a similar disease could break out once again. They are not certain if medical system is able to handle a number of infected people that large. They also said that with air travel, the disease could be on the other side of the world within 24 hours.

I do think we are well past the time for a plague to hit the world, we have been extremely lucky for far to long. The last major pandemic was in the period just after WWI with the Spanish flu when millions died, including my great-grandfather.

The world is over populated and nature will have to let loose with a disease to get us back to sustainable levels. Just like in the wild, to many of one animal and they either starve or something breaks out and kills off all but the strongest. It will probably be something like the avian flu or we may do it ourselves like in The Stand. Hard to say but with my compromised immune system I'll most likely be one of the first ones to go.

That's exactly what I have been thinking for quite some time, since I read The Stand as a teenager. I've always wondered what I'd do. I would probably move to the country and cultivate a little piece of land.

Funny how this topic comes up just after the new Will Smith film I Am Legend hits the theaters... It is essentially a remake of the Charleton Heston movie The Omega Man, and some of the same people were involved with both flicks all these years later.

Techie Wrote:
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> History has proved that low numbers of people
> brought good upon everyone. It was during low
> population counts when disease did not spread and
> technology has advanced. Lately, it seems like we
> are being preached exactly the opposite.

We are preached the opposite of how birthing for the State is a good thing because of how certain countries have labour shortages due to the low birth rate. It is all about getting more bodies for the McJobs and even better positions at lower paying wages. Look at a country like Colombia. The population is heavy; the unemployment rate is high. Colombians with advanced college degrees barely can find jobs other than sweeping the streets and other menial work. Religion loves high numbers as well to keep the church coffers growing and the flock ignorant. A woman who has no kids tends to have a better chance at life than a woman who has bred for the Church...or anyone else!

amethusos* Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Techie Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > History has proved that low numbers of people
> > brought good upon everyone. It was during low
> > population counts when disease did not spread
> and
> > technology has advanced. Lately, it seems like
> we
> > are being preached exactly the opposite.
>
> We are preached the opposite of how birthing for
> the State is a good thing because of how certain
> countries have labour shortages due to the low
> birth rate. It is all about getting more bodies
> for the McJobs and even better positions at lower
> paying wages. Look at a country like Colombia. The
> population is heavy; the unemployment rate is
> high. Colombians with advanced college degrees
> barely can find jobs other than sweeping the
> streets and other menial work. Religion loves high
> numbers as well to keep the church coffers growing
> and the flock ignorant. A woman who has no kids
> tends to have a better chance at life than a woman
> who has bred for the Church...or anyone else!

It is simple here in the USA. More workers means lower wages. We all see that cost of living goes up but wages stay where they are. I've noticed that rent has been going up at stupid rate too. That is a major expense for many. Freaking moos are paying high price and do not ask, the duh got the cash so they feel cozy and comfortable. It's all right, duh will be getting no raises so it will catch up.

Here in USA, it is getting to the point that 4 year college degree is required to work at a front desk at a hotel. That job pays $8.00/hr at best. That is not a good wage and we are getting closer to represent a 3rd world country style of living. College tuition is at all time high but wages paid are not. Who can afford a college anymore?

Speaking of movies. Anymore, I have been noticing that anytime there is a love flick, spogging butts in there somewhere. Almost always. 70's and 80's were better!

Techie Wrote:
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> I saw a very interesting thing on History channel
> yesterday. It was about how the Black Plague
> wiped out 1/2 of population.

Techie, I've seen that twice & it's one of my favorites. I always wondered about the people in the affected areas who survived, even though there was no protection. I've heard that a certain percentage of the population is naturally immune.

Nostradamus was one of them. I saw another H/C show about his life. He lost his father, wife & baby to the plague & somehow he never contracted it. Yes he was a doctor, but I'm sure the dirty rags he covered his face with had nothing to do with his surviving. So interesting.

I think if another plague broke out, the only people to be safe would be remote tribal people. I'd be ok with them carrying on, most of them are simple & peaceful, so they deserve it.

Techie Wrote:
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> Here in USA, it is getting to the point that 4
> year college degree is required to work at a front
> desk at a hotel. That job pays $8.00/hr at best.
> That is not a good wage and we are getting closer
> to represent a 3rd world country style of living.
> College tuition is at all time high but wages paid
> are not. Who can afford a college anymore?


College is pretty useless nowadays. I believe we need to go back to the days when teenagers were taught a skill such as vocational and technical schools. Many young adults look at university as a four-year summer camp. My former husband's niece did that: got mega-loans for a dumb liberal arts degree at a pricey school and then whined how she would not be able to be a good-paying job after graduation except to maybe teach English overseas. Most parents are throwing away their money on education. I worked for Convergys, a major outsourced call center. People may cap on call center workers but many of my co-workers had college degrees but were earning $9-10 dollars an hour...

Unfortunatley, I'd be the first to go, I am petite, but then again, I'd be making my peace up in heaven.


If the plague hit, that would wipe out a lot of breeders, which would be a good thing. Even if I wasn't here to witness it.

---

lab mom

grizzlycat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Techie Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I saw a very interesting thing on History
> channel
> > yesterday. It was about how the Black Plague
> > wiped out 1/2 of population.
>
> Techie, I've seen that twice & it's one of my
> favorites. I always wondered about the people in
> the affected areas who survived, even though there
> was no protection. I've heard that a certain
> percentage of the population is naturally immune.

Yay! Genetic mutation! The theory is that the few who survived the black plague had a pretty specific mutation, possibly caused by past plague survival in their genetic line, that protected them from the virus. There is also a theory that mutation has survived in a tiny percentage of the population, and these people are "immune" to HIV.

One of the reasons why we don't have plagues wiping out vast swaths of the population is....Public Health, and simply encouraging people to wash regularly, prepare their food properly, cover their mouths and wounds, and all the other stuff we think of as common sense. That and inspectors working to keep buildings and restaurants realtively vermin-free.

Of course, an air-born plague is a whole other animal that we are completely unprepared as a society to deal with. Were it to target the "healthiest" among us, like the spanish flu did, it will rapidly wipe out all public health and safety systems currently in place, leaving the "survivors" to deal with it on their own.

"It truly is the one commonality that every designation of humans you can think of has, there's at least one asshole."
--Me

Didn't someone somewhere do a study on the diminishing wages because of illegal immigrants?
I think it was pointed out that (they broke the cost down somehow) they would pay a house builder $4.50 cents to nail one piece of plywood to the frame of a house. (This was in the San Franciso suburb areas.. it has been a while..)
Now, thanks to Pedro, Juan, Manuel, and 40 others it is now down to @ $2.50? .. and probably continuing the downward trend?
Their overpopulation contributes to this. They out-bred their job resources down south of the border: now they are doing it here.
I have no real answer to this; for many it would sound borderline racist, but I am just citing a fact that I read somewhere.
Amazing how facts can be regarded as politically incorrect: it is the truth but we won't accept it because it is racist in nature, offends the wrong gropus, etc.
One thing about plagues: they are sometimes equal opportunity destroyers.

two cents ¢¢ Wrote:
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> Didn't someone somewhere do a study on the
> diminishing wages because of illegal immigrants?
> I think it was pointed out that (they broke the
> cost down somehow) they would pay a house builder
> $4.50 cents to nail one piece of plywood to the
> frame of a house. (This was in the San Franciso
> suburb areas.. it has been a while..)
> Now, thanks to Pedro, Juan, Manuel, and 40 others
> it is now down to @ $2.50? .. and probably
> continuing the downward trend?
> Their overpopulation contributes to this. They
> out-bred their job resources down south of the
> border: now they are doing it here.
> I have no real answer to this; for many it would
> sound borderline racist, but I am just citing a
> fact that I read somewhere.
> Amazing how facts can be regarded as politically
> incorrect: it is the truth but we won't accept it
> because it is racist in nature, offends the wrong
> gropus, etc.
> One thing about plagues: they are sometimes equal
> opportunity destroyers.

There is nothing racist about it. Pure truth is not racist. Last I heard on a Glenn Beck show is that 60% of illegals collect public assistance though the "anchor babies". Low wage is horrible for us, but they also collect our hard earned Social Security. I weep for the future of the United States...

Check out NumbersUSA.com

Techie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> There is nothing racist about it. Pure truth is
> not racist. Last I heard on a Glenn Beck show is
> that 60% of illegals collect public assistance
> though the "anchor babies". Low wage is horrible
> for us, but they also collect our hard earned
> Social Security. I weep for the future of the
> United States...
>
> Check out NumbersUSA.com

Hear, hear! I feel the same way. The Bleeding Heart Libs love to yell racism but I would love for those people to have to actually live in a neighbourhood that has gone downhill because of these fucking wetbacks and realise how the low wages also affects them. An American childfree person is fucked in the ass in the event of an emergency. ER's will turn away uninsured people despite the myth stating otherwise...unless the person speaks Spanish. An "anchor baby" brings in ca$h and the bennies for these fuckers. Someone needs to lace Mexico's water with birth control.

amethusos* Wrote:

> Someone
> needs to lace Mexico's water with birth control.

I call volunteer first!

My SIL is a citizen & the first of 6 to come over (so I guess she's the "gateway" person). Her illegal brother has 4 kids with 4 different women who were never married to him.

Now he's talking about getting someone else preggo with a 5th b/c he "wants another boy". And the womben are perfectly a-ok with it.

They all need to be forcibly sterilized at the border. And I volunteer for that, too. :sam

amethusos* Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Techie Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > There is nothing racist about it. Pure truth
> is
> > not racist. Last I heard on a Glenn Beck show
> is
> > that 60% of illegals collect public assistance
> > though the "anchor babies". Low wage is
> horrible
> > for us, but they also collect our hard earned
> > Social Security. I weep for the future of the
> > United States...
> >
> > Check out NumbersUSA.com
>
> Hear, hear! I feel the same way. The Bleeding
> Heart Libs love to yell racism but I would love
> for those people to have to actually live in a
> neighbourhood that has gone downhill because of
> these fucking wetbacks and realise how the low
> wages also affects them. An American childfree
> person is fucked in the ass in the event of an
> emergency. ER's will turn away uninsured people
> despite the myth stating otherwise...unless the
> person speaks Spanish. An "anchor baby" brings in
> ca$h and the bennies for these fuckers. Someone
> needs to lace Mexico's water with birth control.

They may not turn you away, but they usually do not get to you - you can wait 48 hours - they just do not get to you. Illegals come first!

If pignasty illegal comes - she gets in. If you are a white male - you are screwed. In fact, you will get in quicker at a local family practice doctor, considering he/she is not a Hispanic racist and does not hate white men. (Yes, many Hispanics hate whites and are open about it it. Yes, they are racist!)

Lacing their water with birth control is pointless. They drink our water, eat our food, breed on our soil. What we need to do is to stop welfare and birthright citizenship. No immigrant should be allowed to collect public assistance for at least 10 years of working here. Abuse of USA must stop by all immigrants - I do not care what color they are or where they are from.

A person I know (white female), spent 4 years learning Spanish - he speaks it well now. Reason? She is an elementary school teacher and hiring preference is given to Spanish speakers. She is from the Midwest, she never even heard Spanish until she moved. Then, school districts would not hire her because she spoke no Spanish. Today, Hispanic school administration gives her hard time because she is white, has an English last name and is not married to a Hispanic man. I cannot see her lasting, but she loves what she does and is willing to keep perfecting her Spanish (she even speaks different dialects) just to keep teaching. All letters to parents must be written in Spanish. English parents are completely disregarded by the administration and school district. English speaking kids are often mistreated by Hispanic kids. Complaining to administration does not do anything - they hate white people.

Part of me wonders, if something that was the equivalent of the Black Death struck the world now, if it would wipe out as many people as the Plague did, less, or more.

On one hand, many places in the world are cleaner than they were in the 1800s, so perhaps disease wouldn't have a chance to spread crazily. On the other hand, in a country like America where shit is sanitized and sterilized like crazy, would the average American's immune system be able to fend off the disease? Especially these kids whose parents practically temper them in hand sanitizer - would a normal person with a normal immune system survive, or would only the absolute strongest never-get-sick types live? Would researchers be able to discover a cure for the disease before it spread too quickly? It's just so darn interesting to ponder.

But, if another plague did strike, the first ones to go would most likely be little kids, people with suppressed immune systems and some elderly individuals. I don't doubt that Nature will bite us all in the ass one day for the stupid people over-breeding; an incurable superbug will ravage numerous world populations and get rid of a big chunk of the unnecessary humans. It's too bad we couldn't pay some aliens to target the homes of people with more than three children under one roof to infect with some fatal extra-terrestrial disease, and then put the houses inside big containment/quarantine units. Hmm...I smell a great story plot. XD

Slight drift...there's quite a few reported cases of the Plague in America every year, but it is now completely treatable with antibiotics. Go figure.

the thing is, we travel more, we visit more places like gambia, like south america, and so many other places, so the world population is travelling and coming into contact with new diseases. and some dont have a obvious symptom at first but its still contagious. we are overdue for a plague of "biblical" scale.

in the uk during the plague there was an entire village that locked itself away, because of the plague they didnt want to spread it, and one family survived more than any other, in that case it was a genetic immunity


"In the years 1315 to 1322 a catastrophic famine, known as the Great Famine, struck all of Northern Europe. The famine came about as the result of a large population growth in the previous centuries, with the result that Europe had become overpopulated in the early fourteenth century; the number of Europeans began to exceed the reduced productive capacity of the land and farmers"

The three forms of plague brought an array of signs and symptoms to those infected. The septicaemic plague is a form of blood poisoning, and pneumonic plague is an airborne plague that attacks the lungs before the rest of the body. The classic sign of bubonic plague was the appearance of buboes in the groin, the neck and armpits, which oozed pus and bled. Victims underwent damage to the skin and underlying tissue, until they were covered in dark blotches. Most victims died within four to seven days after infection. When the plague reached Europe, it first struck port cities and then followed the trade routes, both by sea and land.

Pneumonic plague was the second most commonly seen form during the Black Death, with a mortality rate of ninety to ninety-five percent. Symptoms included fever, cough and blood-tinged sputum. As the disease progressed, sputum became free flowing and bright red. Septicaemic plague was the least common of the three forms, with mortality close to one hundred percent. Symptoms were high fevers and purple skin patches "

so we have plagues that are spread faster, sometimes without obvious symptoms, but we also have cures, but some of these new plague potentials, are immune to the current cures..

i think the conventional theory is about 10% of any population is immune to any one plague, so there will be survivors, but since the plagues mutate as well, its a crap shoot

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I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

Just like you said, Mercurior, Europe was overpopulated. With advanced technology we can keep larger number of people today than we did back then, but there is a limit. Breeders are trying hard to find out what happens when limit is reached.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/case_plague/

In September 1665, George Viccars, a tailor in the small, central-England village of Eyam, received a parcel of cloth ridden with plague-infected fleas from London. Four days later, Viccars died. By the end of the month, five more villagers had succumbed to the plague. The panicked town turned to their rector, William Mompesson, who persuaded them to quarantine the entire village to prevent the bacterium from spreading throughout the region. It seemed like suicide. A year later, the first outsiders ventured into Eyam, expecting a ghost town. Yet, miraculously, half the town had survived. How did so many villagers live through the most devastating disease known to man?

Local Eyam lore tells befuddling stories of plague survivors who had close contact with the bacterium but never caught the disease. Elizabeth Hancock buried six children and her husband in a week, but never became ill. The village gravedigger handled hundreds of plague-ravaged corpses, but survived as well. Could these people have somehow been immune to the Black Death?

Dr. Stephen O'Brien of the National Institutes of Health in Washington D.C. suggests they were. His work with HIV and the mutated form of the gene CCR5, called "delta 32," led him to Eyam. In 1996, research showed that delta 32 prevents HIV from entering human cells and infecting the body. O'Brien thought this principle could be applied to the plague bacteria, which affects the body in a similar manner. To determine whether the Eyam plague survivors may have carried delta 32, O'Brien tested the DNA of their modern-day descendents. What he found out was startling.

Thank you mercurior for your intelligent input. It is greatly appreciated. It never seizes to amaze me that CF people on average are much more knowledgeable (I am the black ship, I'm pretty out of it ) than an average breeder. I guess there is not much education needed in order to make and spit out a sprog. After that, spogs do not let people study. They can not tell me they spend much time researching how to raise their kid in an intellectually sound way, because most of the do not!

Yes, thank you Mercurior.

That answers a lot of questions I've had. It's really interesting that geneticists can trace DNA patterns from hundreds of years ago to their present descendants that easily. Even with an isolated population, you'd think the DNA similarities would be barely traceable.

But then, I've read we are the same biologically as we were about 900,000-1 million years ago. So, 400 years is like an evolutionary blink compared to that amount of time.

Techie, you're so right. Breeding for most people is equivalent to taking a stupid pill. Other than CFers, I find some college-aged people and sometimes "empty nesters" (who still have brain cells left) are the only ones who I can have an intelligent conversation like this one with.

i am a research maniac, theres not much i cant find out about (net freak i am).

i think we have 22 "new" genes activated new mutations, plus the combination of prental dna, plus the mitochrondrial dna (from the female line)
luckily some of the same people live in the same village.

my own line comes from one small village, about 60 miles away. the paperwork says from 1232 (we were there b4 but no proof"), so in about 780 years we moved 60 miles, so thats about 13 years for each mile ... so havent changed too much. and with a limited genepool from the north..

*********************************************************************************************************************************
I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

Too bad there isn't a disease that would only strike the able-bodied/able-minded parasites on welfare, animal/child abusers, criminals, and those with painfully low IQs (mentally handicapped excluded here).

The world would be a wonderful place.

KidFreeLuvnLife Wrote:
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> Too bad there isn't a disease that would only
> strike the able-bodied/able-minded parasites on
> welfare, animal/child abusers, criminals, and
> those with painfully low IQs (mentally handicapped
> excluded here).
>
I'd like one that strikes everyone sterile like in the movie Children of Men.

That idea was the only good thing I can say about this movie. Otherwise it was sanctimonious. The population was aged 18+ & all depressed since they thought the human race would die out. And of course, the world was devoid of any joy whatsoever due to the lack of childrun.

I thought it was a great idea to give the earth a rest for awhile, so I didn't feel their pain. I only made it through a half hour when I realized the rest of the movie would consist of trying to save the youngest female on earth, aged 19, who miraculously got pregnant.

Again,