Question for parents on this board

I understand that some fellows here are parents. Many are here to just read, some actually post. A well supported opinion is always welcomed. Here is what I wanted to ask:

Before you became a parent, how badly did you want to do it?

To what extent would you have gone in order to become a parent?

If before you had kids, your partner has decided that parenting was not a path in life that they wanted to take. Would it be enough of a reason for you to end a relationship or would you choose to look at the CF life path and research it more throughly? Did you see a childed life as your only desirable option in life? Would you feel your life's wishes could not be possibly fulfilled if you opted out of parenting?

Very good questions, I wish they would dig deep and REALLY honest and tell us if they know they made a huge mistake, i mean, they are lurking on a CHILD FREE site. (which i dont have a problem with)

Before you became a parent, how badly did you want to do it?

Not terribly badly. It was something I wanted to do, but I would have been fine if I didn't do it -- there were plenty of other things I wanted to do, too. For a long while I was told I couldn't have kids, and I was comfortable with that. Disappointed, sure, but it was something I came to terms with. Going the IVF route or doing whatever else was never an option in my mind, and I'm told (by some other parents) that if I'd really wanted my son, I would have used technology to get him. Um, okay then.

To what extent would you have gone in order to become a parent?

See above. I would have gone to the extent of trying naturally for a while, then let it go if it didn't work. Perhaps I'm just lazy.

Would it be enough of a reason for you to end a relationship or would you choose to look at the CF life path and research it more throughly?

I think that would depend on how stable and happy the marriage was. If my husband hadn't wanted kids, I would have cheerfully remained childfree and stayed with him. If, say, a certain one of my exes hadn't wanted kids (and I did, and I thought I was capable), I probably would have left -- not just because of that, but because the relationship already wasn't the best and it would be one more sign that we were truly incompatible.

Did you see a childed life as your only desirable option in life?

Oh, definitely not! And while I look forward the continuing to raise my son, I also look forward to the day he goes off to college. It's just fact that kids hinder some things (or they do if, you know, you care for them at all), and a lot of them are things worth doing. I will say that the flip side of this is that kids don't hinder you as much as some parents make out; you can have a fulfilling life with kids, but you have to be willing to set boundaries and drop the idea of being a martyr to your offspring.

Would you feel your life's wishes could not be possibly fulfilled if you opted out of parenting?

No, not at all. My child is a valuable part of my life, but I have other goals, other ambitions, and other dreams -- any or all of them could be fulfilling on its own or in combination.

nokyds4me Wrote:
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> Very good questions, I wish they would dig deep
> and REALLY honest and tell us if they know they
> made a huge mistake, i mean, they are lurking on
> a CHILD FREE site. (which i dont have a problem
> with)

I'm a little uneasy. Been burned too many times.

RR what do you mean?

remember those parents in other times in other boards.. not that i am saying sara is one.. but.. remember the problems we had..

i personally treat everyone the same until they piss me off.. then the gloves a\re off. i dont tell people how to live their lives. and they shouldnt tell me how to live mine..

a lot of parents think they know better.. and when its shown we know the same as them.. they frequently resort to insults..

not that i am saying all parents are like that.. my mum reads this board and she agrees mostly with whats said here.. But she ignores the stuff she doesnt agree with

*********************************************************************************************************************************
I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

nokyds4me Wrote:
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> RR what do you mean?

Bingoed, rejected by people I trusted who were breeders-in-disguise, pilloried for not following the lifescript.

When I put Amethyst's Connolly (I think it was Amethyst) quote as a sign off on my hotmail account the backlash was immediate and harsh. I realized how vicious breeders really are. Even to those they care about.

married with rabbits Wrote:
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> RR, I cannot wait to put a 'Can't feed em, don't
> breed em' bumper sticker on my car. It's an early
> 90s model and not the prettiest thing. I bet
> assholes will be bitching that I have no right to
> say that cause of what I drive, because it's
> obvious which side of the financial fence I'm on.
> And I'll point out that it doesn't matter, I'm not
> breeding, and that's the point.
>
> The actual single moms I know tell me it's very
> hard and use that as a reason for me to think
> twice. So they don't get up in arms over my CF
> stance, which is refreshing.
'
You're lucky. On "my planet" I have 2 options: hide my CF stance or, be demonized. It's a lonely place.

Sara, I thank you very much for your open and honest opinion. Please do not take certain comments from certain people here to heart. People like you are welcomed here. If all parents were like you, we probably would not have anything to complain about!:yr

I personally have come across a few good parents and I can certainly respect and appreciate their life choices. After all, people like you respect my Child-Free choice. Anyhow, welcome again to the board and enjoy!

Taz Wrote:
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Your name got my attention! One of our dogs is named Taz. He's a real cutie and a character.

Anyway, to answer your questions:
>
> Before you became a parent, how badly did you want
> to do it?

I wanted it and was excited about the decision, but I approached it as I would approach any big life change--with excitement and some apprehension. So, I guess I was hoping it would all work out, but it wasn't like "MUST HAVE BABY NOW".
>
> To what extent would you have gone in order to
> become a parent?

It's hard to say because it happened so easily. I didn't know what I know now about ART (assisted reproduction technology) but certainly would have found out had it been presented as a choice. I don't think I would have wanted it. DH and I would have either proceeded with adoption plans or just backed off of the whole idea indefinitely.
>
> If before you had kids, your partner has decided
> that parenting was not a path in life that they
> wanted to take. Would it be enough of a reason
> for you to end a relationship or would you choose
> to look at the CF life path and research it more
> throughly?

My partner not wanting children would not have been sufficient reason to end the relationship.

Did you see a childed life as your only desirable option in life?

Emphatically NO.


Would you feel your life's wishes could not be possibly fulfilled if you opted out of parenting?

I think the short answer is no, but I've never had a consistent list of "life's wishes" other than finding happiness in whatever form it may come. I've certainly never thought having children was the "key" to happiness, and I know that if I'd never walked the path I'm on that I'd be no more or less fulfilled, ultimately. That's not to say that my kid is my only passion in life. I actually do have a life outside of my kid--no one believed me when I said I would, but I do.n

Taz, thank you for the very kind words. I haven't found the comments here to be mean or disrespectful; I have received some pointed questions and blunt opinions, but I expected that when I finally made the decision to start commenting -- I did, after all, read here for over three months before I spoke up! I think that's a natural and correctly cautious response from a group that's been treated like shit by... well, by "my" group. (I may vehemently argue against being in a parenting group, or grouped with other parents, but I certainly can't deny that I am one.) I've actually been really pleasantly surprised by how civil everyone's been, and I appreciate the chance to be a (marginal) member of this board.

I've certainly never thought having children was the "key" to happiness, and I know that if I'd never walked the path I'm on that I'd be no more or less fulfilled, ultimately.

MeanPerson, you said what I tried to say, only better. Heh. It's been a long day.

Thank you Mean Person for your response. You are making the dim light shine by showing that there are decent parents like yourself left out there.

It takes a brave parent to post here and I thank you for it. There is a lot we can learn from people like you.

Glad to have you here!

I'm a parent who sort of happened on this board. I won't be trolling your board or bingoing anyone (ROFL at the bingo, though)

Taz Wrote:
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> I understand that some fellows here are parents.
> Many are here to just read, some actually post. A
> well supported opinion is always welcomed. Here
> is what I wanted to ask:
>
> Before you became a parent, how badly did you want
> to do it?

It was very important to me. As a child, when I looked at my future, I always imagined myself married and with children. I wanted the experience of pregnancy, birth, and raising children, and I wanted the opportunity to watch them develop as individuals.

>
> To what extent would you have gone in order to
> become a parent?

I had no barriers, so i don't know. I likely would have used some ART, but I have somewhat lower limits than others. I can't criticize what anyone else is willing to do to have children.

>
> If before you had kids, your partner has decided
> that parenting was not a path in life that they
> wanted to take. Would it be enough of a reason
> for you to end a relationship or would you choose
> to look at the CF life path and research it more
> throughly?

Honestly, I can't imagine a relationship getting serious enough for a lifelong partnership to be a consideration without knowing whether our plans for a family were similar. Both of us wanted a large family, and we discussed that early on in our relationship, in the getting-to-know-you phase. It was a part of who we were, not just something we wanted to do.

Did you see a childed life as your
> only desirable option in life?

I would have been very disappointed and grieved had I been unable to have a family for some reason. Since I consider myself a person of faith, I would like to think that I would have accepted that as God's will for my life and worked through that grief, but it would have been quite painful for me.

Would you feel
> your life's wishes could not be possibly fulfilled
> if you opted out of parenting?

Only the one about being the parent of a large family. My kids are getting a little older now, and I'm moving back into the workforce and beginning to live some of my other dreams. I still have half a lifetime to work with. My mother was a great example in this regard. She was a full time mother for several years, then completed her education and has had a "second" career as the best first grade teacher I know. She is now moving into retirement and fulfilling other wishes. We never felt responsible for her happiness, or guilty for growing up. Parenting isn't the only thing in my life and never could be. Kids need parents for a short time, and then they become friends, with their own lives to live and their own mistakes to make.

Sara Wrote:
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> Taz, thank you for the very kind words. I haven't
> found the comments here to be mean or
> disrespectful; I have received some pointed
> questions and blunt opinions, but I expected that
> when I finally made the decision to start
> commenting -- I did, after all, read here for over
> three months before I spoke up! I think that's a
> natural and correctly cautious response from a
> group that's been treated like shit by... well, by
> "my" group. (I may vehemently argue against being
> in a parenting group, or grouped with other
> parents, but I certainly can't deny that I am
> one.) I've actually been really pleasantly
> surprised by how civil everyone's been, and I
> appreciate the chance to be a (marginal) member of
> this board.
>
> I've certainly never thought having children was
> the "key" to happiness, and I know that if I'd
> never walked the path I'm on that I'd be no more
> or less fulfilled, ultimately.
>
> MeanPerson, you said what I tried to say, only
> better. Heh. It's been a long day.

You are most certainly welcome. Child-Free people come from different walks of life just like parents do. Everyone has a view and an opinion and some may be similar and some may differ. This is why we come to this board, here we have an opportunity to share our views and discuss our differences. While us, Child-Free, often get flamed and grilled by certain people, it does not indicate that the only insults I have ever seen were from breeders or people with kids. In fact, I hate to admit it, the most insults I have ever read were from CF to CF, because one or another was either "too CF" or not "CF enough" or whatever any other reason it may have been. Worst ones were on other CF boards that I would rather not mention. In fact, comments were so stupid, I would not even think about posting on those boards and have questioned the sanity of the posters.

I am certain that the same level of ignorance and idiotic behavior is alive and well on parenting boards. It is not just "your" group who loves to grill people but rather a gathering of all kinds of people who choose to grill each other. I would be hesitant to say that only breeders attack the CF.

You are a life proof that an open minded person like yourself is not just a good addition to this board but an asset to our society.

Sara and Mean Person, thank you guys for posting the answers and telling us all how it is. I have to say that you guys are both pretty open minded people. I can see why hard core breeders would want to pick a fight with you guys - you guys are nothing like them. This topic brings about a memory of an old post on this board.

A while back, on this board, there was a poster named "jim" if I remember correctly. He was having trouble with his girlfriend because of the kid issue. From what I read, she wanted a kid, he did not, so she was leveraging an end to their relationship.

I have to admit that I was being close minded back then, because I told the guy to ship that girl that she will never change her mind. I wish you guys were on this board sooner, maybe instead of taking a kid issue and making it a total and complete deal breaker, I would have asked him questions about the health of his relationship in general, before making suggestions.

Anyhow, I do think that that dude had an earful of us, CF folks. I just feel bad, maybe somehow that could have have been a life improved rather than a life dismantled.

Techie, I appreciate the support. Seriously. I did go back and read that thread a while ago and it sounded like the child/no child issue spoke to bigger problems in the relationship. If I remember correctly it wasn't just a matter of opposing goals, but the mother-in-law was getting involved and the girlfriend was actually having crying jags over it. Sara and I both stated that it wasn't a deal breaker for US, but it might very well have been for this woman, but she was hoping to persuade him so she wouldn't have to break up with him. I guess what I'm trying to say here is that had I participated in that thread I probably would have agreed that ending this relationship was for the best.

Of course, we only got his side of it. It's possible that her crying jags were over some other thing that she either didn't admit or he was too clueless or in denial to identify, and that he just ASSumed it was over THE ISSUE.

Mean Person Wrote:
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> Techie, I appreciate the support. Seriously. I did
> go back and read that thread a while ago and it
> sounded like the child/no child issue spoke to
> bigger problems in the relationship. If I remember
> correctly it wasn't just a matter of opposing
> goals, but the mother-in-law was getting involved
> and the girlfriend was actually having crying jags
> over it. Sara and I both stated that it wasn't a
> deal breaker for US, but it might very well have
> been for this woman, but she was hoping to
> persuade him so she wouldn't have to break up with
> him. I guess what I'm trying to say here is that
> had I participated in that thread I probably would
> have agreed that ending this relationship was for
> the best.
>
> Of course, we only got his side of it. It's
> possible that her crying jags were over some other
> thing that she either didn't admit or he was too
> clueless or in denial to identify, and that he
> just ASSumed it was over THE ISSUE.

That would have to be the case, I suspect. It otherwise would be very mind blowing to see a good relationship end just because someone did not want a kid in it. I have heard of it but I tend to agree with you that there may have been more problems.

I learn something new every day. New thoughts come and explain more things to me. I got a friend and him and his wife split up for a little while over a kid issue. But now that I really think about it, their deal was a series of unfortunate events. I think that kid issue came up first. Later it generated arguments that stem from that. More arguments came from arguments. Eventually someone had to go. While kid issue was the starter, the rest was an avalanche, things were said out of anger that were meant to upset the other. His wife ended up moving back in, will see what happens later.

I am actually starting to have a tiny bit of hope for them after reading your and Sara's posts. Breeder society teaches us that there is never a compromise and that the person who does not want kids will be single. I am glad to have found exceptions to those rules. I am glad that more than one person could say otherwise.

Common sense tells us that we should never attempt to change anyone because none ever does change. But what if it is not about the change, what if it is about addressing the situation in a way where a person sees and understands? While parenting is over represented by our media and CF is almost never mentioned, those are still options available. Both are voluntary and both can be good personal choices. Why not try to explain to someone options available. Informed person is a happier person. I guess the trick is doing it without pissing anyone off.

why all the congrats to the parents on this board for being PNB and not breeders? We have no idea how "good " of parent they are, I myself think anyone who has a kid is a breeder and selfish, seems alot of breeder pleasing on this site, just my opinion.

nokyds4me Wrote:
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> why all the congrats to the parents on this board
> for being PNB and not breeders? We have no idea
> how "good " of parent they are, I myself think
> anyone who has a kid is a breeder and selfish,
> seems alot of breeder pleasing on this site, just
> my opinion.

I can't speak for Sara, but I never said I wasn't selfish. Nor did I say I was "good" parent. I don't think Techie was saying that either. I think he/she was more pointing out that there are parents/breeders or whatever you want to call them who DO agree that kids/no kids is a CHOICE, and that we who have made the OTHER choice don't feel that we've made the superior choice or that the world should bow down and kiss our butts because we've made that choice. That doesn't make us better parents, but it does mean is that we appreciate the crap that the child-free-by-choice deal with in an overly-solicitous "family friendly" culture.

As far as I can see, whether we are "good" parents or "PNB's" has never come up. How could you ever know? You could ask us questions about our parenting, but I from what I've seen this is really not the appropriate place for that.

Ok, I have a question for Sara and MP and any other parents reading this who may care to answer (and I haven't been religiously following all the dialog with you guys, so forgive me if this has already been discussed). In the US, at least, folks get tax breaks for having kids. This has got to be, by far, one of the things that most rubs me the wrong way when it comes to society's treatment of the childed vs. non-childed.

Do you guys think tax breaks for children is fair?

I just don't understand why I should (further) subsidize people's choices to breed. Yes, I know you have more expenses that I do, but no, I shouldn't get docked, tax-wise, to make the playing field more even.

I'd love to hear your take on this. Thanks.

Ok. There are two parts to my answer here. The first is how I feel about receiving the tax break, and the second is how I feel about it in general.

As for how I feel: Who doesn't want a tax break? But, given the choice between the tax break and a guaranteed excellent public education for my kid, a guarantee that the money would not fund stupid wars, a guarantee that we will stop depending on foreign oil and will refrain from offshore drilling and commit the funds to sustainable energy sources, of course I'd let the government keep their money. For any one of those things (and several others that I don't have the time to enumerate) I would gladly forfeit the money. As it is, we do enjoy donating to certain causes, particularly the kind that get our prez's panties in a twist like Planned Parenthood's "Pledge-a-Picketer" program. Here's the link if you're interested: http://www.ppwp.org/pledgeapick1-2.html

As for how I feel about it in general? I don't like it. The problem is that the people who usually end up NEEDING the tax break (people who breed children they can't support) are the same people who go through life thinking they are owed handouts and are unlikely to change. If the tax breaks (among many other benefits offered to them) were taken away, guess who would suffer? Kids who NEVER ASKED TO BE BORN. Now there's the rub. They didn't ask to be here, but here they are through no fault of there own, and while they are entitled to services to keep them fed and sheltered, it is their idiot parents whol hold the purse strings, always. So how do we know they aren't sustaining their kids on a square diet of Top Ramen and pork n' beans while using their tax refunds to help pay for smoking habit or trendy Manolos that they just HAD to have after seeing Sex and the City? We don't. Because the system is broken. I'm open to suggestions.

I dont care if innocent kids suffer. flame away, but its not my problem. If it was up to me, all welfare would stop, innocent kids suffer? oh well, lets thin out the herd, maybe breeders would think twice about crapping out more welfare babbyyeesss

My understanding of the child tax credit is that it's based on -- and therefore comes from -- the income tax you pay throughout the year. I don't think it's appropriate to hand out tax credits that don't come from the person's own income, whatever the circumstances. I don't think I or anyone else should get free money just for having a kid. But... receiving a higher percentage of my own income tax on my refund? I think I'm okay with that.

Of course, my understanding of it could be completely fucked up. And I'll go further and say that I did NOT think we should have gotten the extra $300 on our stimulus package; the stimulus package was for working, tax-paying adults, which my kid... well, isn't, obviously. So that was very dumb. On our taxes each year, though, the preparation instructions are pretty clear that the child tax credit is simply a refund of a larger percent of your own income taxes to help cover the expense involved in having a non-working person in the household.

I don't think that I should receive things from others' pockets, by any means, and I'm really hoping I'm not wrong about the way this tax credit works.

Double-posting because I forgot something: I also think that childfree people should receive a similar tax credit, a refund of the money they paid into schooling/Medicaid/etc. throughout the year. If you're not using the resources, you shouldn't have to pay for them. In the same way that my income tax works for the government throughout the year and then is (partially) refunded to me as a child tax credit, the childfree's tax payments toward kid/family programs should work throughout the year and then be returned. It's an unfair system as it is now.

Sara wrote:

"receiving a higher percentage of my own income tax on my refund? I think I'm okay with that."

and later...

"I don't think that I should receive things from others' pockets, by any means,"

***
Thanks for your response. I wanted to comment on a couple of statements you made. If you're receiving a higher percentage back than a non-parent, then the non-parent is still effectively subsidizing your tax break. It doesn't matter that it's coming off the income tax you paid in. If parents are entitled to higher percentage tax break than non-parents, that "extra money" has to come from somewhere... You guess it!: The non-parents' incomes.