1176 Illegal Immigrants

I would disagree with the poster, the problem with illegal immigration, especially Mexico-USA immigration, is a fault of both governments. If Mexico worked on improving poverty (hard, but possible) and the States cracked down on the people who open up under the table jobs for illegal immigrants just to save some dough and set more fair legal immigration practices, the amount of illegal immigrants going across would lessen. Mexican illegal immigrants are just trying to get out of a bad situation, get some work, and make a bit of money. Shooting at them and not protecting them from inhuman working conditions is not the way to go.

but i really blame the ones who dont integrate into the society, they leave their country for a better life, but then they bring their life with them, and wont change it.

iof they want to be there they should integrate not keep seperate in their own little ghetto;'s

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I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

This is probably the same ranter who keeps posting all this anti-immigrant crap on evildragonlady's board.

First of all, let me point out the following:

1) As was pointed out in last week's Houston Chronicle, the largest UNPATROLLED border is NOT the U.S.-Mexico border but the U.S.-Canada border. So why isn't anyone up in arms about patrolling that border? If you were a terrorist trying to sneak into the U.S., wouldn't you be more likely to come in through Canada? The 9/11 hijackers came in through Canada, albeit legally.

2) Illegal immigrants from Mexico and South America are far from a drain on society: in fact, they have a reputation for being very hard workers, NOT lazy people who sponge off the government. The latter description is much more likely to apply to Americans born here.

3) Illegal immigrants often use other people's social security numbers as their own. What this means is that their employer is withholding taxes from the illegal's paycheck and that money is getting CREDITED to the individual whom the actual SSN belongs to! In other words, some American or legal immigrant is going to get a HUGE windfall when they retire, because some illegal alien just payed into their benefits.

4) Contrary to popular belief, it's not so easy to "just apply" to become an American citizen or legal immigrant. The U.S. has a QUOTA for immigration from every country. That means only a certain amount of people from a particular country PER YEAR can apply for citizenship and/or permanent residency. And yes, there are different quotas for people from different countries. A Swede, for instance, has a much better chance of being granted U.S. citizenship than a Mexican, Honduran, or Guatemalan.

Interesting historical note to #4: I always hear people say, "Why didn't the Jews all leave Europe when Hitler came to power?" What people don't realize is that many, many Jews applied to enter the U.S. but were rejected due to immigration quotas. That's right: The U.S. wouldn't let many of them in, and as a result, many more died in concentration camps, pogroms, etc.

5) All of you anti-immigration folks need to stop and question why so many people are coming to this country in the first place. Did it ever occur to you that many of these people would either starve to death in their own country, or would be persecuted/murdered for their religious or political beliefs? Could you honestly be the one to issue them a death sentence by turning them away? I know I couldn't.

I'm bang on with Scorpio, although Mercurior has me a little confused (maybe it's an American thing that I'm not understanding), but isn't it good for people to hold on to their own culture and history, especially moving to a foreign country? But, eh, you know what they say, America is a melting pot, you HAVE to become American, I'm from the Canadian mosaic view, that we all hold on to our old culture and celebrate diversity.

As for the ghettoes, if they weren't trapped in crippling poverty and being helped instead of harassed, then maybe there wouldn't be such a severity of ghettoes.

yes it is a good thing, but there is a point where they hold on to TOO much of their own culture and expect the population of that country to follow their rules.

it happens in the UK, there are areas, where you dont hear english at all. its all indian/pakistani areas, in some they expect their own religious laws to take precedence over the countries law.

thats the point i was trying to make. england has been invaded for over 2000 years and had immigration, and they have all integrated.

the real problem is the groups like the muslims in the UK, who declared a fatwa on people which is against our Legal LAWS. they want their own LAWS in their own areas.

there was a documentary yesterday on british tv, about some americans who moved to an american army base in suffolk, the family never left the base, never met anyone who wasnt american. thats not integration, thats having little america, little mexico.



ok lady cooper, imagine i come over to canada or america from germany and i bring with me hundreds of people with me, and we all live in the same area, we expect the rest of the population to fall in with our rules, and everyone speaks german first, then english 2nd. and we print all the documents in that town in german first then english 2nd.

thats not integration, thats making little germany (or put any language you want) american culture is built on the melting pot,but some groups just want their own rules..

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/16/AR2005061601376.html

interesting article about it, thats the problem the alienation of people, ************

France, for example, has vast, isolated exurban immigrant slums with populations totally alienated from the polity and the general culture -- then immigration becomes not an asset but a liability

As the results in California have shown, it was a disaster for Hispanic children. It delays assimilation by perhaps a full generation. Those in "English immersion" have more than twice the rate of English proficiency than those in the old bilingual system (being taught other subjects in Spanish while being gradually taught English).


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I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

Immigrants holding onto their culture does not bother me. I like the variety. What does bother me is when we are expected to learn these other languages and are looked at as if we are the aliens when we answer that we do not speak Spanish when asked to speak it instead of English. Many of our own people have no medical insurance due to the oppressive costs yet an illegal immigrant can wander into the emergency room for care. The hospitals end up writing off the costs while an American's credit is ruined for life with the possibility of wage garnishment if the medical bills are not paid. Something is very wrong here. That is probably why some people are more angry than what seems to be acceptable.

What I hate about immigrants in general, are the ones that come here and do not even *TRY* to embrace the American way of life. They just come here and hop right onto Welfare. Lewiston Maine has a terrible problem with immigrants from Somalia doing this particular thing.

KFLL, California and Florida seem to be the most flooded with costs due to illegal immigration. Another issue is the problem of illegals driving with no insurance. About fifteen years ago, my car was hit while parked outside of my apartment. I saw the drivers because I immediately ran to the window when I heard the crash. I hate to say it but the car was packed with what appread to be Mexicans or Cental Americans. They sped off in the direction to a street full of apartments that mostly were rented to illegals. Even when these drivers are caught, many have no driver's license or insurance. Again...we are stuck with the costs.

In the Netherlands, refusal to assimilate is a major issue with Muslim immigrants. They come from their own countries and demand that their religious way of life be imposed on the citizens of the Netherlands. Many of these newcomers bemoan how "decadant" the way of life is in their adopted country. The wave of violence has gotten worse from fanatic Isamists towards Netherlanders. There have been murders against those who speak out against these immigrants. I hate to say it but I agree when the people of the Netherlands mention how there are daily flights to Casablanca for those who do no like the culture of the new land...

CF Scorpio--thank you for that post. Thank you.

For the record, I do agree with several of the above posters regarding assimilation. I think cultural pride is important and essential; however I do agree that people should make an effort to learn the language of their host country. And yes, the fanatical separatist Moslem sects DO scare me.

However, keep in mind that many immigrants work 2 or 3 jobs, most likely at companies of other immigrants from their country. Therefore, they may not have time to take ESL classes after working a 12-hour day. Nor do they have the occasion to learn English if they are only surrounded by co-workers from their home country.

I have to totally agree with Cooper and Scorpio.
Don't forget the role corporations play in bringing "illegal" immigrants over here. They actually go to impoverished countries to reruit, and pay folks under the table, so that they don't have to pay all those pesky taxes, or american wages. This ends up having the effect of lowering wages overall. These folks aren't doing jobs americans won't do, they're doing jobs for a price americans won't take.

About immigrants not assimilating into "american" culture. That's basically our history. Just about every large city I've ever visited has it's "ethnic" neighborhoods, you know...like Chinatown, Little Italy and the like. Up untill like 30 years ago, we still had areas of Wisconsin where german was the predominant language, and this was AFTER WWII where sauerkraut was renamed "freedom cabbage", and other nonsense. My great grandparents spoke swedish, and knew very little english, as did many of that generation who immigrated over here. What is "american culture" anyway? Unless you're talking about the native americans, there is no "american" culture. It's a mishmash.

About emergency rooms...I hate to say this, but they're the primary form of health care for the majority of americans, legal or illegal. Having a job does not guarentee access to health care. Apparently, most people in power don't seem to think that access to health care should be a basic human right. The reason health care costs are so high is because every insurance company has to make their profit and every administrator has to have a 6 figure salary. If health care were available to everyone, there would be more preventative medicine, and perhaps less big money "lets keep this person alive with a feeding tube and ventilator", or "this babyrabid infertile couple is a gold mine!"

Talking english only? I've never met an immigrant, legal or illegal, who came to this country with the expectation that we would know their language. I've experienced alot of non-english speakers giving me the blank stare, but never the "oh my god, you don't know hmong" eyeroll. I have known alot of americans who've traveled overseas and expected everyone to speak english...and have access to McDonalds,Starbucks, and blue jeans...and don't think they need to follow the rules of the culture they're visiting. The reason alot of agencies, especially non-profit social service agencies, require their employees to be bi-lingual is so they can work in communities of poeple who may not speak english. It would be nice to think that everyone coming to america would learn english before coming here, but the reality is..they don't. If an agency wants to work within that community, then they've got to accept that reality and hire folks who can speak the language of that community, as well as know and follow the cultural norms of that community. If they don't, they won't be effective.

Car insurance? There are lots of "legal" americans who drive without insurance as well. Hell, that's one of the first things to be cut when a person has to start choosing what bills they're going to pay, and what they're going to let slide because they don't make enough money to keep a roof over their heads AND eat.

On the flip side of this issue, a former co-worker - a single moo - went to Canada with her boyfriend. The BF is a Canadian who lived in the US on a green card for over a decade. He wanted to return to his homeland since the medical care was better for him. He also wanted the moo girlfriend to go with him.

This woman dumped her kids on various people here in the US so she could live her Canadian "dream". The reality was much different since our Northern friends do not tolerate what we do in regards to illegal entry. The single moo found she needed a LEEP gyn procedure. A women's clinic, that does free exams, diagnosed her but refused to do the LEEP for free since she does not have a Canadian insurance #. In her typical entitlement mentality, she was out looking for someone who would do the procedure for free.

In an e-mail, she grouses how she cannot get the free goodies in Canada. Also, the younger boyfriend refuses to work. She did find a job where the employer found a loophole in the law to hire her as an illegal. By May, she and the guy will be back in the United States since she had learned that our own country is more socialist when it comes to the single mothers. I think it is great that there is a country that will not hand out the freebies to illegals. I told this woman that Canadians pay higher taxes to get these social benefits and rightfully do not want to just give it away to anyone who wanders in demanding handouts.

Needless to say, I don't hear from this former co-worker. Good riddance! I got headaches from reading her kvetching anyway... :scr

kfll, and india, there are good and bad, but bad make it bad for the everyone else, there are groups who dont want to integrate i know that. i am sure you have seen it too. These are the ones we should be looking out for.

i dont mind groups coming in, hell 95% of everyone in england is an immigrant, we had the celts, the romans, the saxons, the vikings, the angle, then we had.. germans, polish, russians. i love to see different cultures, but it should be yes support you own culture but remember your in another country with its own culture and if you want them to respect yours, you have to respect theirs. but thats the point. some dont respect the system that provides for them.

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I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

For the record, NONE of the 19 Sept-11 hijackers entered the U.S. from Canada (or Mexico, for that matter). This was confirmed by former U.S. attorney general John Ashcroft and the 9/11 Commission.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A38816-2005Apr8.html

Cd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For the record, NONE of the 19 Sept-11 hijackers
> entered the U.S. from Canada (or Mexico, for that
> matter). This was confirmed by former U.S.
> attorney general John Ashcroft and the 9/11
> Commission.
>
Really? That's certainly not what I heard. Every article I read about 9/11 after it happened stated that Mohammed Attah and his crew came into the U.S. from Canada.

Scorpio, that never happened. Same with Iraq being involved with Al-Queda. The media still says it, doesn't mean it's true.

CF Scorpio Wrote:

> Really? That's certainly not what I heard. Every
> article I read about 9/11 after it happened stated
> that Mohammed Attah and his crew came into the
> U.S. from Canada.

I'm sorry you heard that. There does seem to be some inaccuracy out there. Even Newt Gingrich last year mistakenly repeated the mistaken impression that some came of the hijackers from Canada, but later apologized for perpetuating what had become a "widespread inaccuracy."
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S.-Canada_relations)

“None of the terrorists from the Sept. 11 carnage came to the United States through Canada to my knowledge. Each of them that I know of, and we’ve done considerable work to trace their activities, came to the United States directly... The stubborn facts are that these individuals did not come to the United States through Canada.” — Attorney General John Ashcroft, December 3, 2001

“...Of the 19 hijackers who attacked America September 11... all had legally entered the country on tourist or student visas...” — Washington Times, “Justice probe finds all hijackers entered U.S. legally” by Jerry Seper, November 22, 2001.

I can't believe this crap! A question for all of the pro- illegal immigrant folks, here:
How many of you have had to live with illegals as neighbors? I'm talking about 5 or 6 entire families living in studio apts. 25- 30 people, at least 12 of them children? Any takers?

How many of you have ever had to go to the ER, and had to wait, because it was full of pregnant illegal women, ready to drop loaves?

How many of you have ever been on a job interview, and the first question out of their mouths is "Do you speak fluent Spanish?"

I wonder where you all live? Do you have a large population of illegals in your areas?

Just curious... I know So. Cal is positively infested with them. BTW, they contribute nothing but babies, here. Lotsa babies!

Sprogless, I am in 100% agreement with you but have remained sort of neutral because of the attitudes expressed. I read the post on the Rant page of the board and do agree even though the person writing it may have used more than colourful language.

I live on the Eastern Seaboard where we also get throngs of illegals. A lot of the CSR ads in the paper require that the applicants speak "Espanol". Why should *I* be required to learn another language in my own country? I worked in one call center where the Hispanics got indignant if there was not a Spanish-speaking agent on duty even though this one client did not advertise agents speaking that language.

I am originally from Northern California. When I go "home" to visit, I also see how the illegals have taken over there, too. Nice areas have turned into "paradias" (sp?) for the day workers selling themselves for low wages. In NoCal, I did live in a neighborhood where the illegals packed themselves into the condos they rented. It was very hard to sell my unit when I moved and took a loss. That area used to be a very nice neighborhood.

I also wonder how many takers there would be if anyone against illegal immigration actually had to live among these people who have literally taken over certain parts of the US. It is easy to spout liberal attitudes if someone is not actually experience the problems of an issue. I also hate to say it but these people do not contribute anything except to offer "employers" a way to pay crummy wages or birth all of these babies that they inflict on our society.

I had the same problem with my house. We lost a fortune, but it wasn't worth it, anymore. I'd come home from work, and there would be 10 kids in my pool. If one of them got hurt... Their mother would lift them over the fence, and then go back in her house. I had to call the Sheriff to get them to stay out- they didn't listen to me, or DH. They felt it was their right to tresspass on my property.
The cops did tell me to stop turning the dogs loose on them, though. Hee Hee!

I know what you are saying, Sprogless! The illegals are having their marches carrying their nation's flags believing they are above the law in this country. As the poster said, "Only in America..." I would like to see these people try the same thing in another country. They would immediately be arrested and deported. In my old neighborhood, I could not even walk down the street or across to the mailboxes without one of the Mexican, Guatemalan, or Honduran male illegals making sexual comments. One pro-illegal alien activist in the area just would claim how these men needed to be retrained from their sexist culture. I can see why many Americans are moving to "Middle America". I sure would be miserable in a landlocked "whitebread" state so I just stay where I am at and bite my tongue...

And down with St. Patricks Day and Oktoberfests! We shall no longer get drunk under the tyranny of the Irish and German flags!

I am extremely suspect of anything I read from the papers about 9-11, especially after it first happened. It seems to me that Americans want to believe that there is something authorities could have done to have prevented it. To know that the people entered legally makes many feel as if authorities were helpless. And they were. I have to say that I believe the government was involved in 9-11 in some way.

Mainstream news media tend to defer to the government in matters of foreign policy unless an elite (example: member of the cabinet or senator, etc. not someone from say a think tank in Berkeley) comes out to say something unfavorable to the govt.'s official position. For a great book about this, see: "The U.S. Press and Iran: Foreign Policy and the Journalism of Deference" by William A. Dorman and Mansour Farhang. I was lucky to have studied with Prof. Dorman at Cal State, Sacramento. The book focuses on the U.S.'s relationship with Iran, but it's very relevant to what's happening right now.

sprogless, I, too, live in Cal., and at the end of the street I live on, there's a rundown old house that I would say looks like a three bedroom house. I swear there are at least 15 Hispanic people living there--like 5 or 6 adults and the rest are children. I would go crazy if I had to live like that.

Nour, sad to say, that those hispanics are "used to it." Sadly enough.

i dont object to people coming fleeing god knows what. i have respect for them. but its the ones who come expecting to be waited on by that country, thats wrong. the hard workers backbone of the countries, but the ones who dont work, dont want to work, and expect us to do what they say. thats plainly wrong..

*********************************************************************************************************************************
I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein