Auto bailout FAILS!

A momentous occasion indeed: the suits in Congress have used their heads for something other than a hat rack. The UAW's bawling for free money for their " workers' " famblies didn't cut the mustard.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Auto-bailout-talks-collapse-apf-13813530.html

" WASHINGTON (AP) -- A $14 billion emergency bailout for U.S. automakers collapsed in the Senate Thursday night after the United Auto Workers refused to accede to Republican demands for swift wage cuts.
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The collapse came after bipartisan talks on the auto rescue broke down over GOP demands that the United Auto Workers union agree to steep wage cuts by 2009 to bring their pay into line with Japanese carmakers.

Majority Leader Harry Reid said he hoped President George W. Bush would tap the $700 billion Wall Street bailout fund for emergency aid to the automakers. General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC have said they could be weeks from collapse. Ford Motor Co. says it does not need federal help now, but its survival is far from certain.

The White House said it was evaluating its options in light of the breakdown.

"It's disappointing that Congress failed to act tonight," a White House statement said. "We think the legislation we negotiated provided an opportunity to use funds already appropriated for automakers and presented the best chance to avoid a disorderly bankruptcy while ensuring taxpayer funds only go to firms whose stakeholders were prepared to make difficult decisions to become viable."

The Senate rejected the bailout 52-35 on a procedural vote -- well short of the 60 required -- after the talks fell apart.

The implosion followed an unprecedented marathon negotiations at the Capitol among labor, the auto industry and lawmakers who bargained into the night in efforts to salvage the auto bailout at a time of soaring job losses and widespread economic turmoil.

The group came close to agreement, but it stalled over the UAW's refusal to agree to wage cuts before their current contract expires in 2011. Republicans, in turn, balked at giving the automakers federal aid.

Reid called the bill's collapse "a loss for the country," adding: "I dread looking at Wall Street tomorrow. It's not going to be a pleasant sight."

"In the midst of already deep and troubling economic times, we are about to add to that by walking away," said Sen. Chris Dodd, D-Conn., the Banking Committee chairman who led negotiations on the package.

Alan Reuther, the UAW's legislative director, declined comment to reporters as he left a meeting room during the negotiations. Messages were left with Reuther and UAW spokesman Roger Kerson.

The stunning disintegration was eerily reminiscent of the defeat of the $700 billion Wall Street bailout in the House, which sent the Dow tumbling and lawmakers back to the drawing board to draft a new agreement to rescue financial institutions and halt a broader economic meltdown. That measure ultimately passed and was signed by Bush.

It wasn't immediately clear, however, how the auto aid measure might be resurrected in a bailout-fatigued postelection Congress, with Bush's influence at a low ebb.

Congressional Republicans were already in open revolt against Bush over an auto bailout deal the White House negotiated with congressional Democrats, passed by the House passed on Wednesday.

The momentum flagged even amid evidence of deepening economic meltdown. The government reported last week that the economy had lost more than a half-million jobs in November, the most in any month for more than 30 years."

...or at least it did until the White House found a way to do an end-run around the Senate. So sorry, I didn't even see this until the yahoo page updated.

"Because Congress failed to act, we will stand ready to prevent an imminent failure until Congress reconvenes and acts to address the long-term viability of the industry," said Treasury spokeswoman Brookly McLaughlin.

The U.S. stock market was still down Friday morning but the worst fears of some market players did not materialize (at least not yet) after the TARP news broke.

But why Congress - the Senate specifically - failed to act is the subject of debate, and now largely a political discussion, as Henry and I discuss in the accompanying video (taped prior to the White House-TARP announcement).

Given Washington was able to (quickly) come up with the $700 billion TARP plan to bail out Wall Street (plus trillions more in other programs), it's a little surprising politicians weren't able to come up with a much smaller amount to at least tide the "Big 3" over until the new Congress/administration comes in.

On the surface, GOP Senators stood on principle by refusing to lend money to a crumbling industry, especially given the likelihood the $14 billion request would be the first of many.

"In the end, it's the single greatest flaw [of the House bailout bill] is that it promises taxpayer money today for reforms that may or may not come out tomorrow," said Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.).

Beneath the surface, the talks apparently broke down over Senators' insistence the UAW agree to benefit and wage cuts to levels on par with what foreign automakers operating in America pay their workers. (At a press conference Friday morning, UAW chief Ron Gettelfinger said the union was willing to make concessions but was rebuffed by GOP Senators.)

A cynic might conclude that GOP Senators saw the negative reaction to the Wall Street bailouts and lack of public support for a Big Three bailout as an opportunity to "break" the union, which typically votes for the other side.

Taking the cynicism a step further, perhaps GOP Senators deduced they could risk standing on "principle" knowing a lame-duck Republican President will bail them (and GM, Ford, Chrysler) out of any responsibility for the potential economic ramifications of their actions (or lack of action).

This is classic D.C. politics: Everybody wins ...save the U.S. taxpayer.

But asshat Bush is going to pardon them just like all the other criminals.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"I have learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is easy and fun as hell"

:eatu

They've played the fambly card, they've played the blue-collar card, they've played the 'merican tradition card. The fact that even ONE Hummer is still coming off the line up there is proof positive that they do not know how to run a business that is in any way relevant.

My thoughts? That's what Chapter 11 is for, boys.

- - - - - - - -
"The death of creativity is a pram in the hallway"
- Cyril Connolly

"But why Congress - the Senate specifically - failed to act"

The way I see it, it's the automakers who "failed to act" YEARS ago. Instead of reading the handwriting on the wall and retooling to create smaller, more fuel-efficient cars, they continued with their Yukons and Exploders and shitty quality. And a hearty FU to the UAW. They fucking want it all, don't they? Seems to me most workers would want to keep their jobs even at reduced wages/benefits, rather than be out of a job COMPLETELY. Bloated salaries and benefits, and not just that of the bigwigs, contributed greatly to their current predicament.

Typical. I'm glad I have NEVER wanted to buy ANY American car. (By American I mean GMC, Chrysler, Ford, so I hate it when people start with the "Hondas and Toyotas are made in America." Yes, they are, but those companies are obviously much better run, and their cars are FAR superior in quality.)

These automakers are nothing more than the usual suspects, sadly. They've all been on the verge of bankruptcy for the last 30 years because frankly their cars are shit, their employees are being paid WAY too much for what they do, and their management couldn't organise a booze-up in a brewery. The only difference between the 1970s, the 1980s, the 1990s and now is that they see banking getting hatfuls of cash and they see an opportunity to jack the taxpayers for some themselves (to keep them up to their fat asses in private jets, obv). The American taxpayers ought to applaud the Senate for telling them to fuck off.

- - - - - - - -
"The death of creativity is a pram in the hallway"
- Cyril Connolly

some of the janitors at these car companies make more money than i do, and i have my own biz and college education.

next up, i'd like to see some government workers getting pay cuts and what not. i've got dumb as dirt hillbillies in my family, barely made it out of high school making almost a 100k a year in civil service for the military. either give that money to the soldiers, who really put their lives on the line, or give it back to the taxpayers.

Hey, all. Guess what--here's a CF person whose better half is employed in a foundry, main product is brake rotors. Said foundry gets (or used to get) many orders from Ford, GM, and Chrysler. If the Big Three fail, there will be many industries affected by that. I see a lot of you have the idea that union = bad. Apparently you get your info from such reliable sources as Limbaugh and FOX News. I'm not defending the Big Three, as it's obvious they have squandered a lot of money. But here's a fast fact: they made so many SUVs and pickup trucks because that's what people were buying! We don't have either one, but we are pretty rare in this rural part of Wisconsin.

As for the UAW: like it or not, union jobs actually paid workers a respectable wage and created the middle class in the U.S. Since our "wise" politicians have been more concerned with keeping their seats,they couldn't care less about the manufacturing base collapsing. Offshoring is great for business, sucks for workers. Maybe you'd like to see an economy dependent on service jobs, but try making an actual living on one.

I guess my point is this. I may not understand what motivates people to have kyds, which is maybe why I didn't. But it's another thing to wish economic ruin on them. Damn, I used to feel comfortable on Bratfree.

Listen CJ, people in the computer industry, programming, etc have been competing against $10 an hour computer science doctorates in India for YEARS. YEARS. None of us have a union contract. The answer to us is "then you need to find another job." That answer has always been good enough for the washington criminals to give us and nobody cried a fucking tear when they opened the H1b visa floodgates and brought the terd werld fuckers over here to take our 90k a year job and turn it into a 35k a year job.

What the hell makes you so special?

Welcome to the turd werld my friend, coming soon to a reality near you.

Well said, nowhiggers. The automakers AND the UAW are responsible for their own damn predicament. "Respectable" wages? They are more like excessive wages, and that is being proven right now. Another example of "there's no such thing as a free lunch."

Even though I am Center-Left on most economic issues, as a registered Independent I am Right-leaning on this bailout.

What I think we need to do is to find a solution which imposes the positive elements of bankruptcy but avoids the negative elements of bankruptcy. The positive elements of bankruptcy are the ability to nullify the bloated union contracts (including those for retirees, those "legacy costs" which greatly exceed those of foreign automakers), the ability to nullify contracts which prevent dealerships from being closed, and the ability to have new top management. The negative elements of bankruptcy are the ripple effects of a closure or liquidation of one of the Detroit automakers.

That being said, if these conditions cannot be met, then I favor bankruptcy. The other automakers, domestic or foreign, will benefit because it is not like people will stop buying cars altogether, they will buy cars from the remaining carmakers, domestic or foreign.

And the Detroit-made cars are not as good as those from Toyota or Honda. Check out the annual Consumer Reports car-buying issue every April. It has projected ratings for new cars as well as survey-driven ratings for recent used cars. The ratings for Toyotas and Hondas, for example, are always better than those for Detroit-made Chevys, Fords, and Pontiacs. I have bought 3 cars in my lifetime and I NEVER considered buying a Detroit-made car. I bought a Japanese-made Dodge (Mitsubishi), a Japanese-made Geo Prism (assembled in California, but a Toyota Corolla otherwise), and a Toyota itself. They were all reliable (the Prism I had for 15 years) cars.

If everyone based their car purchases on Consumer Reports ratings, the Detroit automakers would have been out of business 15 years ago.

Oh, go cry me a river CJ. Us techies have already been trying to compete with our jobs being outsourced to some cheaply-paid, Chinglish-babbling overseas employee for *years* already.

Welcome to the wonderful world of 'free trade'.

I'm not a cold heart here, I do feel bad for Cj's partner losing union wages.

The thing that chaps my ass is how no one gave a flying fuck when the high tech people in this country were fucked hard in the ass with outsourcing and h1b. Where were the union people crying tears for us? Nobody gave a shit, we were told "pull yourself up by your bootstraps."

What I want to know is why this answer is good enough for everyone else, but not good enough for the UAW.

Do these people really think that they deserve better treatment than the rest of us slobs?

The problem is and always has been that you have a bunch of criminals in congress beholden to the rich and the corporations, and HELLO, your precious Obomber ain't going to change a fucking thing, as you will learn over the next 4 years. The new boss: same as the old boss.

CFTeen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh, go cry me a river CJ. Us techies have already
> been trying to compete with our jobs being
> outsourced to some cheaply-paid,
> Chinglish-babbling overseas employee for *years*
> already.
>
> Welcome to the wonderful world of 'free trade'.

we don't have free market in the usa, and havent had free markets since corporations were given personhood status after the civil war.

so for everyone calling you, me or anyone else a Rush Lintball, remember, Rush Lintball is about as "free market" as Stalin.

A real free market would put an end to a lot of this corporate greed, and that's why we'll never have one until people are ready to start shedding blood.

Months ago I posted here telling people the shit was about ready to hit the fan, telling people NOT to support ANY of these bailouts, get your money out of the banks and put it in your mattress and let the motherfuckers crash and burn. Now who is going to be on the hook for breeders getting NINJA loans and corporations playing fast and free with their accounting, hmmmmm.... looks like another job for... SUPER TAXPAYING CHILDFREE!!! Pays everyones share in a single bound! But noooo.... nowhiggers is a nutty ron paul person, the bailouts will help ussss.. Now all of you see, it aint going to help shit, it's just going to make you broke!

Silly me. I pay my bills, save a ton of money and live frugally because that is the way I was raised. Where in the fucking hell is my bailout? When do I stop paying my mortgage so I can get the cash? Nothing too much, just a few billion to tide me over 'til the new jet comes in...

Another thing I thought of....when all those airlines went bankrupt, the gubmint didn't bail THEM out. I guess that was before the concept of a gubmint bailout was born, so no one even considered it as an option!

Yup, once again the responsible taxpayer is the one who'll take it in the shorts. We've always spent less than we make. We've always bought less house and car than we can afford. The idiots who did the opposite in order to satisfy their greedy, selfish desires with NO thought to the future are the ones getting bailed out of their own damn messes (thinking of the mortgage crisis). YOU shit in your own bed, YOU should have to deal with it. If ever there were an example of "rob Peter to pay Paul" this is it.

Hey CJ, I hear what you say...
The unions may very well have helped create the lifestyle we enjoyed, but I think they got a little too big for their britches. Bottom line is, it is part of the reason just about every idiot out there can underbid or out-compete. If they were given the same playing field though, they would crash and burn long before we would.
I have heard plenty of the computer industries and many of the ways american computer techs and others were shafted by the companies they worked for just so they could import foreign computer workers. And they had to gall to whine to the government that they coudlnt' find home grown geeks so they had to import from India.

By the token, why should the friggin banks get such a pass? This whole mess is one of the biggest frauds, shams, and outright thievery I've ever seen and the transparency of it is so glaring... However I doubt the american sheeple will do much.

I just hope everyone here is armed. Hell is coming and hope we are all standing when the dust clears.

I have heard about quality.

I had a sable for almost 15 years.. and I was sorry to let it go. I think I should have kept it... though. Its worst problem was it was rusting out like nobodies business.
Other than that.. you coudlnt' kill that car.

I used to make 75k a year in 1996 writing html.

nothing but html.

programmers above me doing the backend work, 100k+

now i do so much more than html and i make half of that.

what was the answer for people like me?

"find another job"
"pull yourself up by bootstraps"
"in the wrong profession"

and so on.

today i do my own thang, maybe it will pan out to be some good $$ someday i hope because i have no corporation to outsource me.

it only takes one great website to make it big.

i've got about 10 now

so should the janitor at Chevrolet make more money than my DH that has a masters in computer science?

he does. but not for long.

I feel for any CF affected by this, including CJ. I wish I had someone to feel bad for us when we were turdwerlded out of our high pay. not even our own family gave a shit and were more than happy to treat us like losers.

sorry, but it's time for these union people to start facing the same reality we all have to deal with. on the same token, i wish welfare were cut off so these goddamn moos would experience it too

Visiting my parents the other day, my father showed me an article about the auto bailout. They interviewed a few union members, among them a couple with three kids saying about how they'd have to hoard money. Both parents drive huge trucks that get 12 miles to the gallon. The moo was whining about how they used to eat out 5 nights a week and now they'd have to cut down to one night a week. They used to go on multiple vacations a year, and now they could only go on one. Boo-fucking-hoo. I have a hard time mustering up any sympathy for people like that.

My father is a member of a steelworker's union, and he says that his union doesn't really like UAW. He says that they are considered a union out of control.

I rememember many many years ago (I think it started around the end of the 60's and continued... for a long time.. ) Everytime you would turn around the auto workers were striking. It would just be settled and they would walk out .. again.
You do not want an american car from sometime in the 70's... the quality was completely in the toilet. It culminated (imo) with that guy setting fire to his lincoln continental in the ford factory parking lot (if I remember). The only thing that got their attention was when the fuel efficient Japanese cars came in during the 70's oil crisis.
The auto debacle was caused by everyone imo. Americans who will not buy the energy efficient cars because they have to show off their ego (I can afford this wasteful vehicle) to moos protecting their bloody sproggs (they put their drive like hell teen sprogs in these lard-ass tanks - never mind our safety, their shits run us over and kill us at least their kiddies are safe...)
The govt has no incentive to make cars efficient (gas tax). personally, they should not have bailed anyone out.

I think, perhaps, we could take a different tack when subjects stray into non-bratrant territory.

Why don't they just let these companies fail? If they fail, then another investor can come in and buy them at a cheaper price and run them properly, avoiding the fuckups of the previous owners? As far as the auto workers, they are specialized in their field. When the new owners come in, they will need these people to work in the factories. They may be unemployed for awhile, but they will work again. These bailouts continue to amaze me. I love that these assholes are being rewarded for mismanagement. What happened to getting fired for running a company into the ground? Oh, that's only for the regular rank & file.
:newb