The Walking Dead S4 + World War Z *SPOILERS*

I think the consensus was that Lizzie needed to be taken out like Old Yeller. She was becoming as much as, if not more, a liability as Judith. Mika had to be the sacrificial lamb to either send or show Lizzie going over the edge. And it was good by the writers to show how while Carl adapted to the world ending and Sophia resigned herself to it, Lizzie and Mika were never able to fully adjust. Mika didn't realize that the real danger now was the living and Lizzie's psyche just could not handle this new concept of death and living. It was nice to see that not everybody was going to morph into hardened warriors in the apocalypse, but some people would genuinely go insane.

I don't understand keeping Judith around. In the comics, she died with Lori in the prison raid. An infant is the last thing you want or need around when supplies are scarce, the group will go days without food, and the birthmother isn't around to beef the kid. Not to mention the unpredictable nature of a baby is incredibly risky when silence is the difference between living another day or being zombie food (or attacked by other living people).

But The Grove was a very intense episode, especially when knowing the two little girls were going to die. The spoilers I read were actually wrong in how Mika and Lizzie were going to die, so I got to be surprised in that respect.

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"Why children take so long to grow? They eat and drink like pig and give nothing back. Must find way to accelerate process..."
- Dr. Yi Suchong, Bioshock

"Society does not need more children; but it does need more loved children. Quite literally, we cannot afford unloved children - but we pay heavily for them every day. There should not be the slightest communal concern when a woman elects to destroy the life of her thousandth-of-an-ounce embryo. But all society should rise up in alarm when it hears that a baby that is not wanted is about to be born."
- Garrett Hardin

"I feel like there's a message involved here somehow, but then I couldn't stop laughing at all the plotholes, like the part when North Korea has food."
- Youtube commentor referring to a North Korean cartoon.

"Reality is a bitch when it slowly crawls out of your vagina and shits in your lap."
- Reddit comment

"Bitch wants a baby, so we're gonna fuck now. #bareback"
- Cambion

Oh whatever. Abortion doctors are crimestoppers."
- Miss Hannigan

I've read speculation that Judith would indeed die this season; possibly in the last episode.

I wasn't too sure of that when I read it, and I'm even less sure of it now. Speculation was based on a scene where Andrew Lincoln allegedly filmed a scene where Rick was screaming after opening the door on a train car, or something of that sort.

The train door thing seems weird, since we did see a train car already; with the banner instructing them to go to Terminus. Now, I suppose there could be more than 1 abandoned train along the way, but is it likely? I'm not sure. How far is Terminus? Last night, Tyrese said about 3-4 days of walking; so it can't be all that far.

Anyways, yeah, the speculation was that there was this particularly horrifying episode, and combine that with the alleged Rick scene, that the conclusion was Judith was shot dead, or cannibalized, or something of the sort.

After last night's episode, I'm going to have to guess that was what was supposed to be particularly horrifying; killing 2 kyds. And, after that, I really don't see them killing Judith as well.

I guess I am surprised that they did these 2 deaths with still 2 episodes left in the season; I was expecting to end the season on a death. Although, I guess these were not particularly "big" deaths as in important characters. I had also seen speculation that supposedly someone who is still alive in the comic books would be killed on the show this season. Don't know the veracity of that.

I suppose there could be one more big death this season; although after Herschel and the Governor, I'm not sure it's needed. I think it's plenty to have the kyds killed off and Beth missing. I also think it would be plenty of a cliffhanger if they show people showing up at Terminus and then leaving it hanging for 6 months, whether this this is a good place or not.

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paragon schnitzophonic
And it was good by the writers to show how while Carl adapted to the world ending and Sophia resigned herself to it, Lizzie and Mika were never able to fully adjust. Mika didn't realize that the real danger now was the living and Lizzie's psyche just could not handle this new concept of death and living. It was nice to see that not everybody was going to morph into hardened warriors in the apocalypse, but some people would genuinely go insane.

Watched the episode

Damn

Poor Carol; poor Tyrese.

This has been one of the most effective episodes since S1 in showing how the zompocalypse affects people.

So much of the series has been a simple "kill or be killed," whether the danger was from Walkers or other people. There were the "Rick loses it" episodes, showing his tightrope walk between madness or sanity, but this episode seemed to strike more at the heart of real emotions. And it was not because of the kids, but because of how Carol and Tyrese struggled to think of a solution for Lizzie, but knew there was only one resolution.

Your view, Paragon, is an excellent one. I hope that Carol isn't taken out anytime soon, the actress who plays her has finally been given something to work with and prove how awesome she is in the role.

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Dorisan
Your view, Paragon, is an excellent one. I hope that Carol isn't taken out anytime soon, the actress who plays her has finally been given something to work with and prove how awesome she is in the role.

Melissa McBride has really come into her own as much as Carol has. Watching this episode coupled with watching Melissa on Talking Dead afterwards and seeing how insightful she was about Carol firmly puts her in the "great and criminally underrated actress" category (also occupied by Tatiana Maslany of Orphan Black). McBride also may be childfree, given she is nearly 50 and unmarried without children.

Carol has clearly shown the most character growth on the show. She goes from skittish abuse victim to a pragmatic badass who obviously cares but is willing to make the hard decisions and extreme actions for the greater good. Nobody but Carol could have euthanized Lizzie. Maybe Carl could have, like he did to Lizzie's spear counterpart in the comics.

Poor Tyrese. He's a forgiving soul. He got scary-looking after Carol confessed to killing Karen and David. But I guess after seeing what Carol had to do with Lizzie, knowing that was the only truly viable option, he realized that she had the same motivations for killing Karen and David. Neutralize the deadly airborne flu before it spreads further and puts everything everybody worked hard to accomplish in serious jeopardy. And if he killed Carol in vengeance, what then? He would be completely alone with the damn baby.

------------------------------------------------------------
"Why children take so long to grow? They eat and drink like pig and give nothing back. Must find way to accelerate process..."
- Dr. Yi Suchong, Bioshock

"Society does not need more children; but it does need more loved children. Quite literally, we cannot afford unloved children - but we pay heavily for them every day. There should not be the slightest communal concern when a woman elects to destroy the life of her thousandth-of-an-ounce embryo. But all society should rise up in alarm when it hears that a baby that is not wanted is about to be born."
- Garrett Hardin

"I feel like there's a message involved here somehow, but then I couldn't stop laughing at all the plotholes, like the part when North Korea has food."
- Youtube commentor referring to a North Korean cartoon.

"Reality is a bitch when it slowly crawls out of your vagina and shits in your lap."
- Reddit comment

"Bitch wants a baby, so we're gonna fuck now. #bareback"
- Cambion

Oh whatever. Abortion doctors are crimestoppers."
- Miss Hannigan

I think Carol was wrong for killing Karen and David so quickly. They were already in quarantine, and anyone who got sick already had the flu before the symptoms became so obvious.

That being said, I will amend my comment a little. I don't really know exactly how sick Karen and David got to be, because they were locked away. Maybe they were too far gone to recover, but maybe not. We don't really know. And of course we saw Glenn and Sasha both get desperately ill as well. And yet, they both made it through and recovered.

We never really got to see how sick Karen and David were once they were put into quarantine, because they were killed too quickly. Maybe they might have made it, like Glenn and Sasha, or maybe they might've died like some of the others. But, there was no way for Carol to know whether the people she killed were beyond saving.

That really wasn't her call to make, and there was really no need to do so when they were already locked up in quarantine. They weren't a threat to anyone. I can see why Rick sent her away and Maggie sided with him. Glenn was really sick. Would Carol have killed him next? Or Carl or Judith if they had become sick? After this past episode, I'd say she most definitely would have.

Not that I'm criticizing her killing Lizzie, because she absolutely had to do that. There was no fixing Lizzie. So, to that end, I think that made it easier for Tyrese to accept, because Carol was showing that she could kill someone she loved as well. She did what had to be done. Lizzie had already murdered her own sister and tried to suffocate Judith (not that I think either Tyrese or Carol was aware of that), and she was a risk to potentially kill either one of them or anyone they met/-reconnected with.

So, while I think Carol having to kill Lizzie did temper things a bit with Tyrese, when getting the news about Karen, I just saw Lizzie as an active threat that could and should be quickly eliminated; whereas the prison flu was not certain death, nor were quarantined folks an active threat to the healthy people.

Glenn, Sasha, Lizzie, and the rest only pulled through because the gang that went on a medicine search came back in the nick of time. Glenn was literally dying by that point. When the prison raid happened, he was still rather weak. Nobody recovered without aid and everybody who died did not get the medication, so it's reasonable to assume that the flu was certain death.

------------------------------------------------------------
"Why children take so long to grow? They eat and drink like pig and give nothing back. Must find way to accelerate process..."
- Dr. Yi Suchong, Bioshock

"Society does not need more children; but it does need more loved children. Quite literally, we cannot afford unloved children - but we pay heavily for them every day. There should not be the slightest communal concern when a woman elects to destroy the life of her thousandth-of-an-ounce embryo. But all society should rise up in alarm when it hears that a baby that is not wanted is about to be born."
- Garrett Hardin

"I feel like there's a message involved here somehow, but then I couldn't stop laughing at all the plotholes, like the part when North Korea has food."
- Youtube commentor referring to a North Korean cartoon.

"Reality is a bitch when it slowly crawls out of your vagina and shits in your lap."
- Reddit comment

"Bitch wants a baby, so we're gonna fuck now. #bareback"
- Cambion

Oh whatever. Abortion doctors are crimestoppers."
- Miss Hannigan

I'm sure the flu could have been certain death, had someone not gone for medication. But, since the medicine saved Glenn, Sasha and others, who is to say it wouldn't have saved Karen and David as well? Sure they might have turned and had to be put down anyways, but since they were locked up on death row, they weren't a risk to anyone if they did die and turn.

I certainly wasn't all torn up by the death of some Woodbury redshirts, I just didn't see why Carol should have assumed they couldn't have been saved. Glenn and Sasha were very close to death, but they were tended to and hung in there long enough for medication to arrive. Maybe Karen and David would've hung in as well?

Carol could've just as easily have killed Sasha and Glenn instead of David and Karen. Obviously the writers didn't choose that; but they were all sick. Rick didn't want Carol around to kill someone who could possibly (and did) recover. I can understand that.

With Lizzie, there was no hope for recovery. There was no cell to lock her up in; no way to fix someone batshit insane.

So, it seems to me that Terminus is going to turn out to be one giant trap. Thoughts?

I can't help but feel that if you have a safe place, you don't advertise all over town and invite in who knows what kind of element. Whenever you have something secure, other people seem to want to take it; usually by force. Some of the convicts wanted to kill Rick and his group rather than share the prison. The father and son who arrived to the prison with Sasha and Tyreese talked about how it would be easy to take the prison as well. Sasha and Ty had to take the shovels from Beth and Axel so that father/son wouldn't try to attack them.

Rick ended up killing Tony and WhatsHisFace in the bar in town when they wanted to know the location of the farm. And of course the stuff with Randall and the fear of him leading someone back to Hershel's.

Woodbury -- though obviously a bad example of a safe haven -- had armed guards and a big gate to prevent new folks from just strolling in.

Even with the prison, Rick and co. had their "3 questions" before they would even consider inviting someone back. And then, the Governor went so far as to bring a tank and full-on attack to try and take the prison from them.

So, why would the prison folks be so nonchalant about Terminus throwing up banners all over town and inviting all comers? I can understand they've been through a lot; and the timeline is something like only a week (maybe less?) since the prison was lost, so they are in serious need of a safe haven, but, I see red flags flying all over Terminus.

Anyways, I have a feeling the Termites have themselves a trap set; preying on the desperate who are looking for safe haven. Though I haven't read the comics, I've heard enough about them to know that Terminus folks might be really bad news.

OMG has anyone else seen the memes? larious

Haha, those are good.

With regards to Carol, I think this whole Lizzie thing will go a long ways to Carol and Rick making amends. After Carol has seen how much of a threat Lizzie was to her sister, her and Tyreese, and no doubt others, I think she might get a new perspective on Rick's not wanting to have a threat living with the group. Rick will most likely see Carol arrive at Terminus with Judith. I'm sure he's going to have gratitude to Carol for helping keeping her safe. Plus, since Carol and Tyreese were able to bury the hatchet and actually work together after she told him about Karen, I think Rick won't be able to hold it against Carol. If Tyreese forgives, Rick really has to.

You know, I'm watching the marathon, and can't help to get a bit irritated again.

Obviously, Michonne had to have a past, but did they really have to give her a baybee? On top of that, of course, they've been having her bond with Carl this season. I wouldn't necessarily have minded that -- even though Carl can be a stupid little shit sometimes -- because he's mostly grown, and pretty self-sufficient considering it's a the zombie apocalypse.

At one point, I was very open to seeing a Rick/Michonne pairing. Not that it's necessary in this kind of show, but she'd have been a better match for him than anyone in the cast; and it would've been a nice change for Rick to have a partner (besides Daryl heh), that was a strong, capable person. I think we can all agree Lori was pretty much useless and it's good that she's dead and gone.

Problem is, they're making Michonne "motherly" now. So, I feel like, if she did get together with Rick, she'd be less of a badass and more of a step-moo. I'd really hate to see them do that to the strongest female on the show! Especially since I think that if Beth survives this season, she's going to want to get more out of life than being a baybeesitter. Keeping Judith alive was a big mistake.

Maggie is a pretty strong character, but I feel like she's gone sooner than later. Plus, when she and Glenn had the pignancy scare, she was resolved to make a go of it. Obviously, she couldn't have an abortion in the apocalypse, but it would've nice to see her emotional and unhappy about the idea. Even IF a person was kyddie-crazy, you would think that common sense would tell them that there could not ever be a worse time to get inpig.

So yeah, I really hope they don't ruin Michonne by turning her into a stepmoo/wannamoo. I hope Maggie and Glenn use 16 kinds of protection from here on out, and I hope they develop Sasha more next season. I really like her no-nonsense character.

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cfchevygirl
So, it seems to me that Terminus is going to turn out to be one giant trap. Thoughts?

I can't help but feel that if you have a safe place, you don't advertise all over town and invite in who knows what kind of element. Whenever you have something secure, other people seem to want to take it; usually by force. Some of the convicts wanted to kill Rick and his group rather than share the prison. The father and son who arrived to the prison with Sasha and Tyreese talked about how it would be easy to take the prison as well. Sasha and Ty had to take the shovels from Beth and Axel so that father/son wouldn't try to attack them.

Rick ended up killing Tony and WhatsHisFace in the bar in town when they wanted to know the location of the farm. And of course the stuff with Randall and the fear of him leading someone back to Hershel's.

Woodbury -- though obviously a bad example of a safe haven -- had armed guards and a big gate to prevent new folks from just strolling in.

Even with the prison, Rick and co. had their "3 questions" before they would even consider inviting someone back. And then, the Governor went so far as to bring a tank and full-on attack to try and take the prison from them.

So, why would the prison folks be so nonchalant about Terminus throwing up banners all over town and inviting all comers? I can understand they've been through a lot; and the timeline is something like only a week (maybe less?) since the prison was lost, so they are in serious need of a safe haven, but, I see red flags flying all over Terminus.

Anyways, I have a feeling the Termites have themselves a trap set; preying on the desperate who are looking for safe haven. Though I haven't read the comics, I've heard enough about them to know that Terminus folks might be really bad news.

Finally watched it, and yes, Terminus is a huge trap. Woodbury has nothing on these people.

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From a bottle cap message on a Magic Hat #9 beer: Condoms Prevent Minivans
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I want to pick up a bus full of unruly kids and feed them gummi bears and crack, then turn them loose in Hobby Lobby to ransack the place. They will all be wearing T shirts that say "You Could Have Prevented This."

Yep, especially that fresh pile of ribcages and other bones, with some "meat" still stuck to them. Everyone ran by it so fast, but it looked like Rick saw it. No doubt they're dealing with cannibals there.

The thing that gets me is that it's pure stupidity. These folks are smarter than that. Rick was smart enough to bury the bag and his python in the woods. He obviously thought it could be a situation where they might need to escape and having lost the weapons they walked in with. Also, it would be a sign to someone else from the group who might be headed to Terminus, who might also observe from the woods initially, then come across his gun and realize he/they were inside.

But, why didn't they go in 2 people at a time, and leave the other 2 in the woods to mount a rescue if it turned out to be a trap? You just don't flat-out walk into something without a backup plan. It would be bad enough for folks who had never run into bad people yet in the zombie apocalypse; but these folks shouldn't be naive. They've run into too many bad people to not have used better judgment.

It also made no sense that Rick gave himself away when he recognized the pocket watch, etc. Clearly the other prison folks were there, since Daryl's poncho was there, Glenn's riot gear and orange backpack. Okay, you know they're there, why flip out and pull weapons when you're clearly outnumbered? Why not play it cool and look around a bit? Inform Carl, Michonne and Daryl what he suspected was going on, and then take the Termites by surprise rather than tip them off and end up kidnapped too?

I know, it makes for a huge cliffhanger this way, with everyone seemingly captured and no way out. But still...

I think perhaps they could've done the cliffhanger with Rick seeing the objects that belonged to the group, and then perhaps a glimpse of the pile of bones. But, it is what it is.

I can only assume that we'll see Carol and Tyreese show up next season to save the day. And perhaps Beth will be with some other group of survivors, who will also infiltrate Terminus. I really don't think Beth is already there, only because she was taken. Terminus doesn't seem to, or need to operate that way. They obviously lure in plenty of victims with their signs and broadcasts. They don't need to be staking out houses and hoping to grab someone here and there.

Hopefully Carol and Tyreese will meet up with Beth and her (assumed) new group and dump Judith off on them to watch. It would be even worse to walk into a potential trap with a baybee in tow. You sure can't fight effectively that way. I'm thinking they will notice the group's property too, but actually play it cool and pretend to fit in while searching for everyone else.

The timing for the first half of next season just seems so weird to me. I would guess the entire first half will be spent at Terminus, culminating with them going on the road to DC with Eugene/Abe for the second half. But, how do you stay at Terminus for 8 episodes? They're going to have to remain trapped in the train car for at least some episodes it would seem. Once they escape and have a big throwdown, it would make no sense to stay at the Cannibal Inn.

I love this show, but I'm anxious to see how they are going to believably pull this next season off.

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The thing that gets me is that it's pure stupidity. These folks are smarter than that. Rick was smart enough to bury the bag and his python in the woods. He obviously thought it could be a situation where they might need to escape and having lost the weapons they walked in with. Also, it would be a sign to someone else from the group who might be headed to Terminus, who might also observe from the woods initially, then come across his gun and realize he/they were inside.

When I get a chance, I'm going to have to see if there is any WD fan fiction. Sometimes that writing is a heck of a lot better than what is seen on the series.

I'm a fan of some dystopian entertainment, but TWD has been aggravating and the source of much yelling at the tv. It's just such an uneven series. We are supposed to suspend disbelief in order to be entertained by the drama involved in this post-apocalyptic world - fine, that's doable. But the idiocy of some of the situations those people get into... events that you know they are smart enough to avoid. Very frustrating.

I'm putting my hopes on the spinoff that we are supposed to see, perhaps as early as next year. I have wondered if the creators of the original series were taken by surprise at its popularity and were too worried about keeping the momentum going than creating a work that would make a lot of sense.