When people get nasty or undermining about your goals that should be positive

I've never gotten any bingos about being CF. Sure I've gotten some "aww but maybe you'll change your mind when you're older!" type comments from people who had fresh grandloaves themselves or something, but I've never had any serious, nasty bingos or ones that are accusatory or have any type of negative malicious tone to them.

But I *have* gotten that type of nasty vibe about other things, which are actually very positive aspects about my life.

One example is that my goals for the future are non-Lifescript. I'm in my mid-20s and working (have a job to support myself while also taking part-time university classes) toward a degree that will allow me to go to developing countries and do a lot of humanitarian work in a science-related field to improve the quality of life in numerous ways for a lot of people. On top of this, I also plan to write books, travel, go on lots of other adventures and have a fast-paced life: I don't want to "settle down." I don't want my life to be all about finding a nice town, buying a house, and getting into a routine-oriented life that involves working at a company, going home, watching TV and going to bed, and having weekends just consist of errands and napping. That's not me. Even without kids, that kind of life still sounds like hell: and besides, I have a vision of the type of things I want to do to help make the world a better place.

Whenever people ask about my future plans, I'll tell them the 10-second version of that, and I'd say 80-90% of them are like "Oh cool! That sounds amazing, good luck!" But there always has to be those people who say some bullshit like "Oh, I used to think I wanted to do things like that, but then I found out that life just happens!" in this tone that totally says "and you will too" unsaid at the end of it, in some condescending tone like I'm going to give up all my goals just because of some guy I date or getting comfy in a job or whatever. NOPE. Maybe they did, but it won't be me! OR, there's the people who act like I'm somehow conceited or naive to think that I can make a difference, like you're supposed to develop this indifferent nihilistic attitude on life as part of being "mature," and that they are somehow more enlightened than me because they view that world that way and I don't.

Another one is wanting to get fit/in better shape. This isn't something I "need" to do, in the sense that I'm not overweight. I'm a size 8 and healthy and would like to go down to a size 6, for the sake of getting better muscle tone and a sleeker, more compact body. I'm not obsessed with being a size 0, I'm not anorexic and I don't have any type of self-consciousness or body issues. I would just like to trim up, and i HAVE lost about 4-5 pounds lately (which on my short size makes a difference), via eating more vegetables servings and doing more frequent/intense workouts. And, usually, people are really positive about it.

BUT, I will always get the few people who seem to have issue with this. One in particular is an acquaintance-type friend who I hang out with sometimes who goes way, WAY overboard with the "you should love your body the way it is!" thing. And, like I said before, I don't have any body issues - I've got no issues with being in a swimsuit or whatever. But when I mentioned wanting to trim up a bit she was like "WHY??? You don't NEED to lose weight!" in this...offended way. And the other day, we were picking up some movie snack food, and I got a couple of deli boxes of raspberries/blueberries and a V8 drink compared to her tons of junk food and she was like "That's ALL you're eating!!???" in this "WTF" way. I was just like "Yeah, I'm good" in this assertive tone that shut it down right away, but she had the tone where if I was sheepish she would have gone on and tried to get me to eat more food. (This friend is overweight herself and, while she puts herself down a lot, doesn't take any action about it. I'm not judging this, but maybe it relates to her seeming almost bothered that I want to get into more prime physical shape.)

Does anyone else have stories of people who will get petty/jealous/undermining/bingo-y about things that specifically involve wanting to rise up and better yourself/the world?

I would understand more if I was the type of person who went on and on and on about my goals in a way that implied that I was better, or if I used it to monopolize every conversation, but I don't. It's just that every now and then the topic will sometimes come up, and when it does, I'm open and proud about what my goals are.

Thundergirl85, I received the same shit from family members and former friends. It's like that they don't want you improve in life.

It has to do with insecurity and jealously.

I'm not gonna lie, when I got bingo-ed like this when I was a teen until about 23, it affected my self-confidence in myself.

I have since realized that they're just a bunch of jealous assholes who don't like to see certain people to have positive goals.

I get the inverse. I'm in the middle, you could say. Not an adventurous person, but not a routine person either. I've had people tell me I should be wanting to do this, that, and a thousand other things. But when I talk about wanting to help people, by donating time and/or money, people look at me like I have two heads. Sometimes, I get questioned as why I would help anybody, even if what I did for that person didn't require much effort.

A friend of mine in the UK wants to be a psychologist. It's a dream she's had since she was 12, and she also wants to study at a very prestigious university. Her mother endlessly put her down for this and made fun of her, to the point she felt worthless and was constantly stressed out. Her mom's treatment of her was so bad, she pushed my friend toward suicide and, at one point, she even planned a date for it. Thankfully, she did not follow through with it and one of her friends there was able to take her in after finding out.

Surprise, surprise. Later on, I learn my friend's mom never attended college nor has she held a job for several years. Basically, this lady didn't want to have to see her daughter do better than her. The only thing she's done in about twenty years is have two more children.

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"Be yourself, no matter what. Some will adore you, and some will hate everything about you, but who cares?

It's your life. Make the most out of it."

It's pretty common that when one crab tries to climb out of the barrel, the rest will pull it back in.

I think the best response to people like this is to cut them out of your life if possible. If not, just stop telling them stuff. Actions speak louder than words, so just do what you intend to do instead of telling them about it. Chances are in 10 years you won't even care enough to tell them "I told you so."

Don't of course cut out people who want to discuss actual challenges with you, not from the perspective of demoralizing you, but from concerns that you might not be aware of all issues. Sometimes they might know something you don't which you'll want to take into consideration. Ignoring the jealous people is not the same as removing all disagreement from your life.

Yurble, I definitely understand what you mean that there's a big difference between people who are flat-out naysayers, and people who just have constructive feedback about the logistics and what-not. The latter group will just bring up their concerns openly - they aren't about bringing the person down, just about the specific concern they have.

The people who are just in it to be undermining don't have any direct issues they bring up. They just choose to use subtle undermining and suggestive type comments - especially the ones that imply that i'll "grow up and realize" or whatnot.

Thankfully, none of my family is like this. But one of my friends (who I've since cut out) started to get increasingly that way about the future plans stuff.

And a LOT of people get that way about the fitness stuff. It's almost like if you're not traditionally overweight, it's seen as bad to want to get thinner/toner, because as long as you're somewhere within a healthy range you're supposed to just be content with the status quo. Don't get me wrong, it's definitely important to love your body and no one should have self-hatred or body dysmorphia issues, but if you love your body and are healthy but there's still improvement that can be made, isn't it a good thing to want to aim for the best?

Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with NOT being super fitness-oriented as long as you're healthy, and they shouldn't be judged for liking desserts/etc, to each their own. but it seems like if you're into fitness and want to get slimmer, but aren't perceived as being someone who "needs" to lose weight, then people will come out with their statements like "but why, you don't NEED to lose weight" or "just lighten up about it" etc. (Again, I'm not some militant dieting freak who revolves conversations around it in some annoying way. I'm just talking about if you get a salad and some fruit instead of a burger for lunch, or if you politely choose to pass on the office pizza, and someone acts like they have an issue with it)


And here's the other thing. The people who would get undermining and nasty and try to bring someone down out of jealousy: what's stopping them from just fixing what they don't like about their own life? Why can't THEY just work out/eat better, or if they hate their boring life then do something more purposeful/exciting, etc.?

Obviously it's not a quick fix thing, but why don't they just take the small steps to get there? If need be, get the education through one community college class at a time, save money slowly, start with small steps to get in better shape, etc. If someone hates someone for being on the path they wish they were on, why put energy into bringing them down, instead of taking small steps to be on that path themselves?

It's like there's this toxic attitude of "if it involves any work or struggle outside my easy routine, I'm against it, but when other people embrace the challenge I'll tear them down because I don't like it." Why? I honestly think that that mindset is the most toxic thing in society.

EmpressKitty, the fact that it affected your self esteem from your teens-20s illustrates exactly what I mean. When shitty jealous naysayers like this are in a position to grate on someone in a way that makes a real difference - say, if it's the person's mother or 'best friend" or something - someone who isn't as strong as you are might start to surrender, and then, in time, become bitter and propogate the same insecurity to other people. It's like it's a virus that gets passed on and on and who knows how many people it's stopped from achieving their full potential.

Granted, it's ultimately the individual's own responsibility to achieve their dreams and not let naysayers tear them down. But still. I feel sorry for people with insecurities and obstacles, I really do, but once they go past the point of pulling down another person (like crabs pulling the escaper crap back into the bucket), my sympathy is gone for them and I do consider that kind of negativity to be evil.

Thundergirl85, I've dealt with this same issue, especially with my mom. When I was 20, I got into a grad school program that I hoped to turn into a career working to improve the lives of hospice patients. I had all of these goals and dreams. My mom always told me things like, "You'll never make money doing that" and compared my undergrad degree to completing a program in "underwater basketweaving". It made me feel unsure of myself, and it didn't help that my mom's friends said similar things to me about my goals. I went through what I now recognize as a depression that lasted several years. I dropped out of grad school, took some low paying jobs, and ended up in some really bad relationships. I later went back to school to pursue a different profession. Now that I'm 15 years older, I wish I could go back in time with the knowledge and wisdom gained from age and experience. Those subsequent years really did a number on my confidence, and I'm still recovering from feelings of "what if...?" I really wish I'd surrounded myself with more supportive people during that time. I put up with a lot of people trying to tear me down.

I guess what I'm trying to say as I'm rambling here is, you will always have to deal with negative people in life, and even people who claim they care about you may try to discount your hopes and dreams. Unfortunately it's part of human nature. I don't know if it's jealousy or what. There are just some people who will always look on the negative side of things. Just keep doing what you're doing and being a badass...anybody worth keeping in your life is going to be supportive, not try to knock you down and tell you your dreams don't matter.

I'm really sorry that your mom put you through all that negativity, doubt and depression. (I looked for the "hug" smiley face and couldn't find it.) But I think that if you have nagging feelings of "what if," you should try to go for it. I'm not saying to do it in some irrational way that involves dropping everything you've got now, but you should think about a way to gradually position yourself to be able to do it, while still taking care of your current responsibilities. Is part-time school/training alongside your job an option? Or volunteering at a hospice night shift and then working your way up toward the type of role you want to have? It might be 15 years later and you can't change the past, but you can change now. We all only have one life, and if there's something you want to do or feel a pull to do, even if it's later than ideal, I think you should go for it.

Thanks I ended up doing volunteer work with a hospice for a few years back when I started out in my current profession. I've since chased other dreams and ended up getting degrees in other fields, but it's just one of those things where I wonder how my life would have turned out if I had gone that particular route.

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We all only have one life, and if there's something you want to do or feel a pull to do, even if it's later than ideal, I think you should go for it.

I think this is great advice. I used to think my mid-20s (ha!!) were too late to try something new. People often act like if you don't have your entire life mapped out by 22 years of age, there is something wrong with you. I have a friend who is my age and she is starting law school soon. I think she is awesome and it's very inspiring to see people follow their dreams, regardless of age.

I was put through all sorts of negativity in my life when I was younger too and it did its share of damage to me. For many years I didn't have much self confidence and pretty much wanted to give up. Sometimes I still do. I've always known I wasn't dumb, but I've spent my whole life in places where intelligence was a liability and not an asset.

Sometimes I wonder if all the naysayers were right about me.

I wish I had followed my heart in my 20's as opposed to letting other people (family) tell me what to do and run my life. At midlife, I am just now getting comfortable in my own skin and trying new things for the first time ever. I just had to get out from under my toxic smothering family and realize that I only have to answer to me and no one else. I admire those in their 20's that want to get out and try new things and forge new paths, taking risks as well. (Hell, I admire people of any age that do all of those things.)

I completely agree with you only getting one life. I also agree with the saying "The best revenge is living well". So thundergirl85, you keep on going in the directions you're moving into and keep rocking on!

When anyone tries to better their life, it can make other people feel insecure about their own life choices. It's sad, but true.

When it comes to fitness, some people are definitely lazy about their own attitudes, and they want to drag everyone else down with them. If they're fat, then they want EVERYONE else to be fat too! That way, they don't feel so bad about themselves. Not to say that fat people are bad, because I'm no skinny Minnie myself. Would I condemn an already fit person for wanting to better themselves? Absolutely not. In fact, I see that as a motivator for myself.

ETA: I had a girlfriend who did this to me, but she was skinny. I was losing weight, and she noticed. She says to me, "You're losing weight! Why?!!" As if it was some kind of terrible thing. I told her that I wanted to lose a few pounds. After that, she turned on me by thinking I was hitting on some guy she liked, which I wasn't, and telling everyone about an incident where I was fired from a stupid retail job to undermine me. I didn't find out about it until a mutual acquaintance phoned me to tell me what was going on.

I see people who do great things with their lives, and it inspires me to try new things. Some people are too lazy to change the status quo. They don't want other people to be a success, because then they have to examine their own lives and why they don't have the self confidence to do what makes them happy.

Keep being your awesome self and do what makes you feel good! Don't let these losers bring you down. As already stated, you only get one life to live, and how you choose to live it is your own decision.

I dealt with the same crap from my mother. On the bright side, she never bingo-ed me. She thought I was too stupid to do any more than take a bus to my fast food job and never missed a chance to tell me this. The best advice I can give is to quit engaging the moron who does that. All you ever have to do is shut down the conversation and try not to let it go to your heart. I know that's all too often easier said than done.

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All you ever have to do is shut down the conversation and try not to let it go to your heart. I know that's all too often easier said than done.

I second this advice. You cannot allow random people to determine how you are going to feel about yourself and your plans. A lot of people are like crabs in a bucket. I've noticed this is particularly true with young people. A lot of people don't like seeing an unencumbered young woman who is going to do things with her life. They want to knock her down a peg so they feel better about themselves.

I once heard it described this way: I want to be a "Bon Voyage" type of person. When I see someone who is embarking on a gutsy endeavor, I'll say "Bon Voyage."

People who give unsolicited advice or who are always giving commentary about things are a pain to be around. I'm opinionated on this site but IRL I don't give unsolicited advice or negative commentary. People are adults, live and let live.

Bon Voyage people are much better to be around.

The shit I got for getting my pilot's license and going to work on the helicopter as a nurse was beyond the pale. What really galls them now is I succeeded at it. Everyone who gave me shit about it was reacting to their own fear.

My DW and I really greased their gears a couple of year ago when we did a skydive for our anniversary. larious

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“There are three things all wise men fear: the sea in storm, a night with no moon, and the anger of a gentle man.”

Thundergirl, first of all, I envy you being in your 20s and embarking on this wonderful journey that you are creating for yourself! I did the same when I was in my 20s when my friends started getting married to guys they are now divorced from. They wouldn't just bingo my choices but would explicitely exclude me from things because I wasn't coupled up like them. 20 years later, it turns out that my life has been WAY more fun and rewarding than it would have been had I been just like them. Do not let them deter you. You will meet other like-minded people along the way that will become lifelong friends and you will experience a richness in life that others are missing. Whatever people said to me along the way that was borne out of jealousy or spite has been mostly forgotten and you will forget it too because it doesn't matter.

You will also develop skills you didn't think you would by doing what you are doing and opportunities that you did not anticipate will open themselves up to you. That shit won't happen if you settle down in some town and work a dead-end job waiting for Prince Charming to show up or whatever. You will work forever if you stick to your dreams and never have to worry about hating your job or being unemployed.

About your friend that tells you that you should love your body when you mention fitness and health goals to her... Tell you that you DO love your body which is why you are fueling it and strengthening it to do this battle we call life.

You keep going girl, take it from somebody who did something similar, I promise it's worth it!!

JADE. Justify. Argue. Defend. Explain. It's a pattern people often get into. These are the things to avoid doing when confronted with a narcissist and I think that's what people are dealing with in this thread. The following paragraphs are the best explanation I can find on the internet:

*If you’re new to the land of narcissism, then I must share this acronym with you. I cannot take credit for it but it is brilliant. I came across it on several blogs / forums, so if you know to whom it can be attributed to, please let me know! It stands for justify, argue, defend and explain. These are the things you need to avoid doing when confronted with a narcissist!

Narcissists consider their interactions with others as a game; a game they will likely win if you play along. One of the key elements in their communication technique is to keep others on the defensive. They do this by gleaning information from us and storing it for future use. Even the most seemingly benign information can and will be used against you.

They know just how to present something in a way that makes us feel like we have to justify or explain our position. The conversation will escalate into an argument after they push all the right buttons. If they are really good, you will explode in anger and look like the crazy one. This is called crazy-making and it is most effective when they have an audience.

Arguing with a narcissist is an exercise in futility and should be avoided at all costs. We have every right to keep our thoughts and feelings private. It takes a certain amount of trust to divulge these things to anyone and if they haven’t earned that trust, then they don’t deserve disclosure.

It is crucial not to get too deep with a narcissist. stay in the shallows where it is safer! Don't JADE!*

Like I said in my first post on this thread simply shutting down the conversation works best. In my case the narcissist was my mother and I would randomly start talking about the weather. I stopped feeding the drama and I had the satisfaction of watching my mother freak out when she lost control. Please trust me when I say that's rewarding.

*The explanation I posted is from the site http://the-one-you-feed.blogspot.com/2010/09/jade.html. It was the best description of JADE that I could find.

** I believe it was Dorisan who first mentioned this topic but I might not remember that correctly. I mention this because I want to give proper credit.

For whatever this might be worth I envy you. Your life is going to be awesome and I wish I'd had your strength.

Thank you so much to everyone who's posted, especially regarding the comments about how my life will be great and the wonderful compliments. It means a lot. You guys are the best!

I think everyone should go for their dreams, though, and not let naysayers from the past drag them down. So what if you're in your mid-50s and have been living in a trailer working at a gas station your whole life, or whatever the case may be? You can still make the changes you want to make. If you are serious enough about it, there will always be a way. I hate hearing people say stuff like "I wish I made different choices in my 20s because now it's too late" because honestly, 90% of the time, it's really NOT too late, and they COULD do what they wanted if they made the steps to go do it. Would it be harder, sure, but definitely still doable.

I've definitely noticed that what I've described comes from younger people. Most of my good post-college friends are older than me: 30s and 40s. I live in a place with lots of mid-30s/early-40s who are single CF professional types who like to go out and have fun and achieve things, and I've gotten very close to some of them. So sooo different from the people who are the SAME AGE who took the Lifescript and are now frumpy, washed out, etc. One of my best friends is 41 with the appearance and energy as a 28-year-old, does fun things, started her own extremely successful invention/entrepeneurship recently, etc. and it's so crazy comparing her to people who are 35 who already look and act washed out and dead. Not due to health issues, which is obviously much different, but due to just crapping out on life and giving no effort.


A lot of my same-age friends, though, I've had to cut out due to the issues in my OP, including someone who used to be my best friend in college. I wonder why young people especially are the ones who are nastiest about it? You'd think they'd be less nasty - they're on the same page age-wise, so it's not like there's that to be jealous of.


Also, there is SOMETHING that sets apart the Lifescripters from the free-spirits. I'm not sure what all it is. I don't think CF'ness is the sole factor at play, because I do know people with kids who are PNBs, free spirits, care about following their dreams and making an impact on the world, etc. and there are also some CF/CL people who are naysayers and Lifescripters. I do think there is a big correlation with loafing, because a lot of the Lifescripter types will use it as an excuse to halt their lives and whatnot (plus CF people are already not afraid to go against the grain). But, while CF/loaf status can sometimes be an indicator, there's more to it than that.

I wonder what this missing link is? I swear I see it so much more, especially now that I work in a dead-end office type setting (not forever - this is only for a few years while i finish school, since I needed a less stressful job and this is about as easy as it gets.) But there are other people here who have been here for like 10 years who have made no progress or momentum in their lives, just this routine "go to work and go home every day" bland "life" and they clearly are NOT happy, but there's no sign of them changing their gears either.


Edit to say: I love that I can discuss stuff like this on this forum and speak my true opinions without anyone blasting on about how it's "offensive" to the naysayers or whatever. I once posted something like this on TCFL ,years ago when I went there, and a bunch of people started whining about "you're describing MY life down to a T and i'm offended, baaawwww." Whatevs.

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thundergirl85
I wonder why young people especially are the ones who are nastiest about it? You'd think they'd be less nasty - they're on the same page age-wise, so it's not like there's that to be jealous of.

I think you already said it, really. It's the life script. It's virtually ingrained in their minds and they can't see any different path. To them, this is the way life works and that's it. Anything else is just some sort of detour. I think the missing link would be fearlessness. Even if they don't like the life script, they're too afraid to try writing their own script, so they continue with it and convince themselves this is the best way.

A free-spirited person may also have fears, but the difference is they don't let those fears stop them. They won't stay on a path they don't like because it's the only one they know. A lot of people think being free-spirited means reckless. Not so. They do not let obstacles become permanent.

There was a time I was also like this. Not looking down on people, but believed the life script was the way everyone lived unless they were unlucky. My family wasn't any help either. They do not like anything that deviates from "the norm". I knew I didn't want kids at 12, but I thought it was something that happened to everyone, so I vowed to stay single for the rest of my life. I kept that line of thinking until I was 18, when I first discovered the CF world. Let me tell you, it was like some kind of reality punched me in the face when I learned that children are not imminent. That opened me up to many other things.

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"Be yourself, no matter what. Some will adore you, and some will hate everything about you, but who cares?

It's your life. Make the most out of it."

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brown-eyed diamond
A free-spirited person may also have fears, but the difference is they don't let those fears stop them. They won't stay on a path they don't like because it's the only one they know. A lot of people think being free-spirited means reckless. Not so. They do not let obstacles become permanent.

I'm afraid, just of different things than many people.

I'm not afraid of moving to a new city where I don't know anyone; I'll meet people. I am not afraid of moving to a new country where I don't speak the language; if I was offered a job, there will be resources for me to navigate through the obstacles. I'm not afraid of being single; I'll meet someone new when I'm not looking (or maybe I won't, although so far I have), and I find being single enjoyable enough. I'm not afraid of starting a new career; I know I'm broadly intelligent and willing to learn, and I don't have a lot of expenses which would prevent me from taking a pay cut.

I am afraid of buying a home and being stuck somewhere I don't want to be because I can't sell the property without a huge loss. I'm afraid of getting too comfortable living somewhere and falling into a rut of going to the same shops every week, eating out at the same places, and never exploring. I'm afraid of feeling like I need someone else because I've learned to be helpless about handling basic adult tasks like paying taxes or choosing an insurance. I'm afraid of experiencing no intellectual challenge from my work. I'm afraid someday I'll stop being given opportunities to do new things because people will assume I'm old and unwilling to learn new things.

Do you think it could be religion? I don't want to step on anybody's feelings about religion, but I was raised in the most ossified religious culture, and it is very obviously at the root of many of my conflicts with my family. Not to mention also the cause of a lot of my mental problems even now that I got free so long ago. There was a lot of guilting and shaming involved in every facet of it. Granted, I was raised in a cult by fundie assholes who believed in the 'higher law' of said cult. If they could take something just a bit further than the rest of the congregation they would!

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Presto
Do you think it could be religion? I don't want to step on anybody's feelings about religion, but I was raised in the most ossified religious culture, and it is very obviously at the root of many of my conflicts with my family. Not to mention also the cause of a lot of my mental problems even now that I got free so long ago. There was a lot of guilting and shaming involved in every facet of it. Granted, I was raised in a cult by fundie assholes who believed in the 'higher law' of said cult. If they could take something just a bit further than the rest of the congregation they would!

You have a valid point Presto. I found the majority of the naysayers who tried to put me down considered themselves Christians. I know that not all Christians are like this, but a lot of their thought processes are flawed.

I don't get how believing in Christianity would cause someone to be like that. Yes there are creepy fundie oppressive cults out there, but otherwise I don't get logically how someone would be able to use that as an angle to keep someone down from.
I'm a person of faith myself. The"golden rule"/"use your abilities to be Christlike and help people and the world" kind, not the self-righteous kind. I have nothing against sex, rock music, Harry Potter, weed or whatever. I think gender role oppression and homophobia are BS. But, for me, a huge part of my goals with my desire to help people etc. is BECAUSE of my faith.

Even if someone is of the fundie/ultra-traditional/conservative religious set, I still don't see how there's any Biblical basis for wanting to get in someone's face and hold them back from their goals. If someone wants to, say, travel around the world and help the poor, or champion animal rights causes, or become a famous painter/musician/bodybuilder or whatever, how is that anti-Christian or something they would be against?

There's even passages in the Bible that say that, while the marriage/kids route is fine and great, the route of foresaking marriage/kids and devoting your life to God's causes (which one could interpret as other goals that involve doing good besides the Lifescript) is even better. I think it's somewhere in Matthew. Also, it's clearly stated multiple times all throughout the Bible that things like jealousy, negativity, undermining people, gossip etc. are all bad things.

I'm not trying to preach at anyone or get into a debate about religion in general, and I'm not saying that people can't have dealt with rude religious peopole - i'm sure it's happened.

I'm just saying that I don't get, from a logical standpoint, how people who are religious naysayers would be able to use religion as a basis for their naysaying.

Thundergirl85, it has to do with insecure people using religion to be a naysayer. I'm agnostic and spiritual myself and I'm not trying to turn this into a religion debate either, but insecure (and unhappy) people will use religion as part of their agenda to get people on their level (so you don't improve in life). Insecure people are in every walks of life and religion is not immune to these kind of people.

I'm not against religion in general. I'm against the extremists, fundies, and people who use religion for selfish reasons. And also to play devil's advocate, extreme (and militant) atheists can be just as bad.

Here's what I'm saying. Usually when insecure fundies use religion as a basis to naysay, they harp on something Biblical to use as a basis of their bingo'ing. For example, the people who are anti-gay and will drudge up one of the random few anti-gay quotes and go on and on about it, or the fuddy-duds who look down on clubbing/rock shows/etc as "lustful" or whatever. I don't agree with them, but they still logically are able to pull up something specific to twist to support their judgy views. But if someone doesn't like the fact that someone, say, wants to travel the world and do humanitarian things while staying unburdened (which is what most of the Apostles themselves ended up doing), what leg would they have to stand on if they wanted to say something smarmy to use religion as a basis of the nay-saying?
I hope that makes sense lol..

I also agree that extreme preachy atheists are just as bad as oppressive fundies. They tend to be the ones who deal out the "life is pointless and meaningless and you're naive if you think you can make a difference, the mature ones have accepted that we just exist in futility" bullshit.

Interesting, I've never met that sort of atheist, I was under the impression that it was a religious trope intended to vilify the godless. See how awful they are, they are nihilists!

Now, I know I come from a fairly extreme background, the one true religion also provided the one true lifestyle for its adherents, that's why it seemed to be an obvious suggestion.
Since I've been online for so long, I have also met other believers of different faiths also pushing the only way of life that they KNOW god approves of.
This usually involves women's role as wife and mother. This was called the 'highest calling' in my place of origin, but I know evangelicals and a few others have pretty much similar ideas.
Then you have all your rich or wannabe rich WASPs who strongly insist the June Cleaver lifestyle would fix America if we'd all just listen up and do it right, for heaven's sake.
But in my background, they went even further, and dictated the type of shoes to be worn, the number of piercings allowed, the age to begin dating, and the 'right' kind of clothes to wear on Sunday. (If you were curious, Ashley Lauren style for women, and suits with white shirts only for men.)
With this kind of control over the minutia, it was just a given that you would follow in the major correct ways of living. Assumed, and socially enforced.
Travelling the world simply wasn't an option. You received your two year mission call to the country they chose for you and then settled down to breed. The end.

This was all laid out in front of me at an early age, and I was appalled. This was nothing like I read in books, and I don't mean sci fi and fantasy, lol!
It was simply a given for ME that I would pay lip service to what was asked of me and the second I turned 18 I was going to go off and do it my way.
Maybe it was an advantage that my life was so blatantly preprogrammed for me and everyone around me made it obvious. There was simply no possibility that I would even remain friends with anyone who thought along those lines or even hinted that I ought to do so. Why let them get in your head about it? These aren't your friends.