Project about the pressure to have children

Hello,

To introduce myself: I am a married, 30 year old woman, who doesn't know whether she wants to have children. Rather, I know I don't want them NOW, I just haven't decided on anything "forever" yet.

As you all know, there is a lot of pressure to have children, and a certain assumption that of COURSE we should have them and I'd better get on it before it's too late.

This has sparked me to:
A. Want to do research on the subject - which led me to the whole Child Free movement.
B. Start working on an animation project expressing all of this, which is what I like to do about stuff that concerns me...

So, having found this forum, I was wondering what resources people here might be familiar with, and might direct me toward, for help exploring this issue. This includes, of course, your own personal experiences if you wish to share them.

I am sick of the myth that once you have children you'll just be so happy you did. I KNOW this can't be true for everyone, but it's hard to find people openly willing to admit that. And I'd really like to figure out how we can detach from the pressure and the fear of making the wrong decision, and just find what WE want to do - not because of, or in spite of, social pressure.
How can we have true freedom of choice when only one option is presented as valid?

So I welcome anyone's opinions, ideas, additional sources of information, anything you want to share...


Thank you for your time.

I am sure the others, especially the married women on this forum, will have plenty to say, I can give you my perspective as a single male, 45 years old.

I knew from the age of 20 that I never wanted to have children. I worked two summers as a counselor at a day camp and could not wait to get away from the brats at the end of the day.

I was always a bit of a loner, wanting and valuing peace and quiet. I also knew early on that children would be a huge drain one's personal finances. I parlayed that into saving a lot of money and investing well in the go-go 1990s and was able to retire last November. [I worked full-time for 16 years and part-time for 7 years and earned more than $95,000 a year only one time, and I live in the high-cost area of Long Island, New York.] While everyone else out there (mainly the breeders) are struggling to make ends meet in this bad economy, things could not be better for me.

Whenever someone asks me how I was able to retire from work at the age of 45, my short answer is this: "No kids, no debts!" And in that order, of course.

You want to navigate this bad economy more easily and retire early? Do NOT have children.

You want to screw up your finances and waste money, have to work until you are really old, and have a less-than-peaceful life? Then have children.

When you think about it this way, not having children is a very easy and logical choice to make.

______________________________________________

"I thank god I'm an atheist!" -- Mike "Meathead" Stivic (from All in the Family)

I knew I didn't want children since I was 6 years old (I'm 25 now). I am female. My mother and grandmother both tried to push motherhood on me from an early age, but eventually gave up. I'm an only child. My mother babysat when I was growing up, so I spent my childhood around lots of other kids and a few babies. She would make me help with the babies (shitty diapers and all), regardless of the fact that I didn't want to. I think that was strike one. Strike two was the fact that I so easily realized that children were cruel, predatory little monsters. Strike three was seeing the strain that having a child put on a marriage. I was a very observant child.

I purposely got myself kicked out of Home Ec in highschool just to avoid the childcare part. They wouldn't let me simply drop out of the class.

I loathe children and babies, and I will honestly say that my childhood experiences influenced the bulk of my feelings. As an adult, I have only gained more reasons for not having children. I will list some of them.

The world is already overpopulated to a dangerous degree. It is selfish to make more people when resources and spaces to live are dwindling and there are people who already exist who are starving and living on the streets. I have and Autism Spectrum "disorder" that, given the way I was treated, I don't care to pass on. I lack patience. I hate, hate, hate loud noises. I like being able to have nice things and keep them nice. I like having my fiance to myself. I like having some extra money. I like my free time, and I don't care to give it up to play servant to a selfish, demanding carbon copy of myself.

Hope this helps!

Hello Shmonster, I am a 29 year-old single man and I have always known I did not want children, I cannot stand them.
I would fit perfectly into the "lone-wolf" category, I like to keep my house spotlessly clean and well-ordered and, just like AngryReptileKeeper, I hate loud noises. All these factors rule children out, besides, I enjoy my life, my job and my freedom too much and I prefer to invest my money on a beautiful sports car, exotic travels and a pension scheme.

I had a vasectomy a month ago, no hesitations and no regrets. It is my body, my life and my decision and, since I have a no-nonsense approach to child-rearing, it is the best investment I have ever made.

Having children is the most overrated activity the world has ever seen. You say it is hard to find people openly willing to admit that having children is not as marvellous as other say and that they have, somehow, ruined your life. Assume it is going to be well-nigh impossible to find people in the herd braking the rules, instead, they will probably put the blame on themselves for lacking that "something special" which turns Hell into the Earthly Paradise. I see children, parents and families in general as the faithful followers of the old proverb: "A problem shared is a problem halved". CF are ahead of the pack.

Hi shmonster, thank you for coming here and expressing your curiosity. Congratulations, you are amongst the growing number of men and women who are actually beginning to wonder if all the hoop-la about having children is all it's cracked up to be; you're beginning to think about it.

You are going to be hard-pressed to find current parents willing to reveal who they are, being honest about the fact that having children was a mistake; although they are out there, you're going to have to really look. You will easily find anonymous confessions all over the 'net. A website called 'True Dad Confessions' has been removed from the internet because of all the brutal honesty men were confessing about being fathers - however 'True Mom Confessions' is alive and well. You will occasionally find honest mothers there, and reading some of the horror stories about their children should be enough to turn your stomach inside out (although they will, of course, make it seem as though it is the cutest thing ever). Most times, the idea of parenthood not being the perfect life choice is squashed. They don't want people to know the truth. When you are out and about, observe children and their parents: Look to see how many dads are out with the family, look at their faces - facial expressions and body language are very telling about ones' current mood and feelings. Look at the moms, do they look happy? Watch the kids' behavior, are they well-behaved and respectful or are they hellions? You're going to have to observe your surroundings and make your own decision for yourself. You and your spouse are going to have to be on the same page, or you will not make it. I'm not saying you both have to hate kids, on the contrary. You both can like children and be involved with them in a very positive way without having them. But you're both going to have to agree that neither of you want any of your own.

Being a 'fence sitter' can be a sticky situation. Some women have a biological desire to have them, but common sense tells them that it's not a good idea in today's world. For me, I have never liked nor wanted children, and didn't like being around them when I was a child myself. I always preferred socializing with people older than me. They annoyed me then and they annoy me now. Well behaved children in the appropriate time and place are fine and don't bother me a bit. But, for instance, if I'm in a bar having a beer and their is a kid at the bar who is being quiet, that is not an appropriate place for a child and regardless of their proper behavior, their presence will bother me. Perhaps it is because I was raised by proper parents who did not allow me in adult places and who taught me manners at the kitchen table before taking me out to eat in public.

In any case, if you do decide children are not for you, be prepared to take some heat for it - a lot of heat. I didn't care, I refused to be conned into something I truly believed was not in my best interest. At 39 years old and married a wonderful 11 years to the greatest man I've ever known, I'm SO glad I stuck to my guns. Tenacity paid off, now my friends and family know there is no chance of convincing me to have kids and have left me alone. We might get the occasional question 'how many kids you got'? from people we've just met, but that's about it. Good luck in your research and in your own personal decision regarding pro-creation.

Quote
str8six
When you are out and about, observe children and their parents: Look to see how many dads are out with the family, look at their faces - facial expressions and body language are very telling about ones' current mood and feelings. Look at the moms, do they look happy? Watch the kids' behavior, are they well-behaved and respectful or are they hellions? You're going to have to observe your surroundings and make your own decision for yourself.

That is a really good piece of advice, people will tend to lie when it comes to tell how things really are. Instead, look at them, how they move, their faces and reactions. I do that naturally and the body language of eight out of ten parents tells you they feel sad and miserable, even worse, trapped.

Just....don't.

The home page of this wensite is one great source of info. It also includes (see link below) a famous, albeit informal, survey from the advice columnist Ann Landers did in the 1970s titled, "If you had to do it all over again, would you have children?"

http://happilychildfree.com/ann.htm

Every person who ever considers having children should read this.

______________________________________________

"I thank god I'm an atheist!" -- Mike "Meathead" Stivic (from All in the Family)

Thank you, deegee- well worth a re-read.

HI, Shmonster. I knew since pretty young that I didn't want children. Just. Didn't. Want. Them. I am in my 50s now and oh-so-glad I never did go the parent route.

St8six's advice is spot-on. "Body language" tells you a far more truthful story than words ever will. I have seen very few happy parents out there, especially when the children are ill behaved. And degree is right on about "Happily Childfree".

If you're doing research on the pressure to have children, you may also be interested in learning about the Quiverful Movement and in particular, the women who left the movement. It's a group comprised of evangelical and fundamentalist families who believe that since a child is a "gift from god", that it's necessary to receive as many "gifts" as god is willing to give them. In it, you can see how the social pressure for women to have children is taken to a brutal extreme.

Parts of my ex-husband's family were beginning to get involved in that movement as our marriage was beginning to have troubles, and it was a big contributor to my decision to get a divorce. There was no way that he or his family was ever going to be satisfied with me if I didn't have children.

I am not "nurturing" nor drawn toward childcare in any way. I don't believe that a parenting relationship with a child would be mutually beneficial for either party. Although childfree people are often labeled as "selfish", I think that it's UNselfish for me to use my abilities and inclinations where they can be optimized instead of forcing myself into a role that doesn't fit. If each year I can help many people of all ages who have already been born- through work and through volunteering, how does that make me more selfish than if I dedicate the majority of my time to having and raising one baby?

Since the divorce, I have not had pressure to have children, but I have had pressure to remarry. As soon as people find out that I'm in a serious relationship, they assume that my boyfriend and I will be getting engaged. I see this as symptomatic of the same desire for women to behave in a certain way.

About resources shmonster, I would recommend going to a used book site (like abebooks.com) and look up Ellen Pecks "The Baby Trap". This was written well before the childfree really took off. If you peruse childfree sites, you can pick up a lot of information, links. There are a number of books as well regarding childfree.

In my opinion shmonster, a lot of it is plain old fashioned common sense which is so seriously lacking today. When women (mostly it is women) can write a book which is primarily "I am defective, but I was brave and courageous in having a child." (case in point: several books by manic depressive (or bi-polar) women who did just that.) What is so brave and courageous of gambling with a childs life and well-being? The condition is largely genetic and one has no idea how the stresses, hormonal imbalances will affect behaviour. One thing I have observed with 'mentals' (as I term them) is they are clueless as to their own behaviour and impact on their own kids. They operate under the delusion that they are such a good parent; while everyone else calls child protective services because they are violent and destructive. How many people convicted of child murder will sit in a courtroom and simp "but I looove my child" when the child barely survived a murderous attack by them? This is just an example. One out of hundreds.

You have to decide, not so much what a child will do for you (the majority approach imo) to what you NEED to do for the child and EXPECT no return, or be very circumspect about that child. It will most likely just be an average individual and will do well if left alone for the most part (not subject to parental pressures to be more than it is.) You have to combat societal pressure (one good saying you can give the child is 'it takes a live fish to swim against the stream'.) If they can be taught to observe and read between the lines, one can glean a lot of information. So many kids dress and act in a way that they think is so rebellious. What you can point out is that this subset of rebellious youth look/sound/act alike. They are conforming to a set of non-conformity: mainly dead fish floating downstream.

If you have a child you have to COMMIT to that child. There are plenty of studies out there that demonstrate that the first 2-3 years in a childs life are crucial to their ability to bond. The mommy HAS to stay with that baby. All too many women, imo, think they can dump infants into kiddy warehousing and have that child be normal. I think we have yet to pay, as a society, for that mindset.

Bottom line is, as a woman thinking about children, you have to be VERY CIRCUMSPECT about who you choose as a father. All too many women get over-anxious and rush into situations that range from nasty, to brutal, to lethal in order to have a child: (see previous dissertation on bringing a child into disadvantageous situations. it doesn't have to be genetic. Look at newspapers and see how many women are killed by the men they shack up with (btw, shackups are NOT condusive to childrens best welfare; you say you are married so that is step in right direction.)

Man am I off topic. This was just for information. Just google and looke around. There are lots of info out there.. and welcome to the board.

two cents ¢¢

CERTIFIED HOSEHEAD!!!

people (especially women) do not give ONE DAMN about what they inflict on children and I defy anyone to prove me wrong

Dysfunctional relationships almost always have a child. The more dysfunctional, the more children.

The selfish wants of adults outweigh the needs of the child.

Some mistakes cannot be fixed, but some mistakes can be 'fixed'.

People who say they sleep like a baby usually don't have one. Leo J. Burke

Adoption agencies have strict criteria (usually). Breeders, whose combined IQ's would barely hit triple digits, have none.

I always knew I never wanted kids and luckily, I'm not the type to want to do what everybody else is doing or give in to the pressure of family or friends. Always marched to the beat of my own drum. If it ain't good for me, I ain't doin' it.

I've mentioned this title on other threads, but I don't mind repeating it: Shirley Radl's autobiographical book _Mother's Day Is Over_ is a masterpiece: a woman who had a glorious childfree marriage for several years had two children by choice. And she has never stopped regretting it! The book is a great example of how your life will be changed for the worse every minute by children--and it's the perfect response to the bingo "But it's different when they're your OWNNN!
The book's out of print but lots of copies are available at bookfinder.com.

Hi there. I am Banshee, 38, and living by myself in my own little apartment.

I will tell you the most PERSONAL reason why I don't want children: pregnancy and childbirth do THINGS to your bodies that would make a bloodlusting demon turn white. Incredible screaming labor pains, necessity of episiotomy (CUTTING the vagina WIDE open enough to get that damn baby head out), grisly stretch marks on your whole torso, baby weight that would never go away, etc. And babies themselves are disgusting, smelly little humanoid parasites that actually feed on dairy beverage out of a woman's PRIVATE PARTS! Try watching some graphic videos of childbirth and breastfeeding on Youtube to SCARE you off forever, good luck! Even if you manage to survive a kid's childhood, think of its teens, where it would be an arrogant, troublemaking punk or a loose skank who gleefully flaunts her barely covered body everywhere. Even worse, the girl may end up having a child too early and YOU looking after it YOURSELF while the slut goes out and runs around with boys again.

If I consider adoption, I am still taking HUGE risks to take a strange child in. I'd have to develop a good bond with the kid who may try to kill me in my sleep anyway and I'll also have to spend HUGE amount of time, money, and energy on that kid as well, so I decided not to bother with it anyway. I have a cartooning career to pursue and it's VERY time-consuming, BTW.

I think it's very neat that you are producing an animated cartoon on childfree, too!

not to mention the tearing of your own skin from the inside. the biochemical changes, that alter your entire chemistry,

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I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

Like many others here, for me too it was a combination of things. When I was growing up, I did not like babies or children younger than me. I hated babysitting. I found nothing to like about babies or children at all, ever -- I found them disgusting. As I grew older I also found nothing to like about the way most parents behaved either -- which is just another version of how their children behave -- selfish, attention-seeking, demanding, overemotional, quick to anger, jealous, stupid, weak, boring and generally dissatisfied with their lives.

Yet I couldn't understand why so many people went willingly to their doom when, as Str8six said, you could so clearly see the unhappiness that children genuinely caused. Everyone was living in denial. And like Night of the Living Dead, they kept slowly limping towards me, mindlessly growling, reaching out trying to grab onto me and make me join them, because that was the only brainstem impulse they had left.

I stepped away from religion, and thankfully this meant there was one less merry band of interfering old morons who seemed to believe Jesus has some kind of claim on my uterus.

I read Desmond Morris's "The Naked Ape" and Richard Dawkins's "The Selfish Gene", which thoroughly confirmed that there is absolutely nothing magical or mystical about the reproductive process, the birth process, or the behaviour of children (Morris is a zoologist/psychologist, Dawkins is a scientific philosopher, and yes we are definitely all animals). What parents like to flatter themselves by thinking it's 'love' eminating from their brats is really nothing more than neolithic survival behaviour -- designed to draw as much attention from adults as possible so that they can continually be given resources like food, water, medicine, comfort, etc, at the expense of anyone else who might be competing for the same thing.

I think most of us here have found that, once a person separates him/herself from the "must breed, must breed, must breed" mentality, their decision to be CF is constantly underlined. They see right through the ploys used in advertising to appeal to breeders, they see how the media twists news stories to try to wrench the oversensitive hearts of the childed, they see the huge consumer industry that saps breeders of every last dime in order to feel like they are good breeders. And so on, and so on. Weak and stupid.

You'll notice too that not one of us here is CF because of some ill treatment, or perceived ill treatment, by our parents. Also that not one of us here has any problem with some of our tax money providing decent basic education for other people's children. Our CF-ness is merely all about not wanting to be around children, and not being made to feel bad for choosing to have a happy life without children than a miserable one with children (like oh so many are).

- - - - - - - -
"The death of creativity is a pram in the hallway"
- Cyril Connolly

for me its i cant hurt others, i cant be a cause of pain to others, i knew but didnt know until recently there was a cf world, i never thought about kids.

*********************************************************************************************************************************
I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

Quote
B. Waterhouse
I've mentioned this title on other threads, but I don't mind repeating it: Shirley Radl's autobiographical book _Mother's Day Is Over_ is a masterpiece: a woman who had a glorious childfree marriage for several years had two children by choice. And she has never stopped regretting it! The book is a great example of how your life will be changed for the worse every minute by children--and it's the perfect response to the bingo "But it's different when they're your OWNNN!
The book's out of print but lots of copies are available at bookfinder.com.

All the reviews for Mothers Day is Over are strongly positive:

http://www.amazon.com/Mothers-over-Shirley-Rogers-Radl/product-reviews/0877958645/ref=cm_ cr_ dp_ all_ helpful?ie=UTF8&coliid=&showViewpoints=1&colid=&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending

(remove spaces after 4 underlines)

Thank you so much for all the wonderful resources and opinions.

This is very helpful, I'm looking into all the books and websites mentioned.

As people on here have said, it's just so important to THINK about these things, and people don't think. They just do what everybody else seems to be doing, like sheep.

On a side note:

I also do NOT get how having children is "selfless". Before you have a baby, the baby doesn't exist. You can't be creating the baby for him/her, they don't exist yet. It's the most selfish thing we can do, given that so many children out there have no homes, and we are quickly exhausting our planet's resources. If someone is inclined to be a parent, the least selfish thing to do would be to adopt then.

I'm not saying someone is bad for wanting to have children, even their own biological children. But if/when I ever decide that's what I want to do, at least I will be AWARE that it's a selfish choice, not a selfless one.

Sheesh.

Anyway I will keep checking back here and read more of this great stuff.

Thank you!

Quote
Shmonster
Thank you so much for all the wonderful resources and opinions.

This is very helpful, I'm looking into all the books and websites mentioned.

As people on here have said, it's just so important to THINK about these things, and people don't think. They just do what everybody else seems to be doing, like sheep.

On a side note:

I also do NOT get how having children is "selfless". Before you have a baby, the baby doesn't exist. You can't be creating the baby for him/her, they don't exist yet. It's the most selfish thing we can do, given that so many children out there have no homes, and we are quickly exhausting our planet's resources. If someone is inclined to be a parent, the least selfish thing to do would be to adopt then.

I'm not saying someone is bad for wanting to have children, even their own biological children. But if/when I ever decide that's what I want to do, at least I will be AWARE that it's a selfish choice, not a selfless one.

Sheesh.

Anyway I will keep checking back here and read more of this great stuff.

Thank you!

Thanks... and, I'm sure everyone here feels the same way: having children is a totally selfish decision. The breeders dance all around it like they are on hot lava. The logic is inescapable. How many times have you read/heard the statement from a child "I did not ask to be brought into this world." When you look at the mommy blogs where they are a) in miserable/abusive relationships 'but I have a chiiiild and he/she is my solace'. Nevermind the damage said mommy inflicts on that child by staying with a bastard.

Witness all this bull shit about the defective moo for whom getting knocked up could be a death blow and how BRAVE they are for screwing a child into existence. This is nonsense. Pure, total, complete assininity. How brave is it to leave a child without a parent just to justify your own life or psychoses? Even one doctor called the octo

two cents ¢¢

CERTIFIED HOSEHEAD!!!

people (especially women) do not give ONE DAMN about what they inflict on children and I defy anyone to prove me wrong

Dysfunctional relationships almost always have a child. The more dysfunctional, the more children.

The selfish wants of adults outweigh the needs of the child.

Some mistakes cannot be fixed, but some mistakes can be 'fixed'.

People who say they sleep like a baby usually don't have one. Leo J. Burke

Adoption agencies have strict criteria (usually). Breeders, whose combined IQ's would barely hit triple digits, have none.

Quote
Banshee
little humanoid parasites that actually feed on dairy beverage out of a woman's PRIVATE PARTS!

I have this question for you and whoever else:

Do you drink (cow's) milk?

How is that any less disgusting than breast-feeding one's own species?

Make no mistake, I'm as CF as all you on here put together, and don't want any baybee sucking on MY boobs. But get real. It's not like "dairy beverage" comes from any other body-part, regardless of what species it is. And that "body part" is not "private" in every culture, or even in all sectors of Western culture, whether or not it is lactating at any particular moment.

And FWIW, I do drink (cow's) milk.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"I have learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is easy and fun as hell"

:eatu

Hello Shmonster,

Ever since I can remember, I did not like babies or toddlers. I detested infant dolls. The first time I saw a pregnant woman in Safeway (I was around 4) and my mom explained it to me, I threw a fit of despair thinking that it would happen to me one day. When I was in my early 20's I sought a tubal ligation but the doctor patted me on the head and said that I would change my mind. I didn't. I'm now in my early forties, happily married, and happily child free. And I have a real aversion to infants / toddlers / kids. I am absolutely repulsed by them, AND sickened by the culture / mind set of parents and society at large towards pregnancy and children. My parents were fine with my not having children. They knew it wasn't right for me. My sibling is CF too. My spouse thought it might be a good idea to have one - in the event that something happened to him, he wanted somebody to look after me when I am old. This is one of the worst reasons to have children ever, and I told him. I think he is relieved that I don't want them, because we are of a religion / culture where a great emphasis is placed on breeding and truth be told, he is not interested in them. His family is, however... I complained in an earlier post about how my FIL keeps offering to pay for IVF for me. What he doesn't know is that I accidentally became pregnant (pill + stomach flu is not a good combo). Sometimes people say "if it is yours, you will love it". Well, I am living proof that it is not always true. When I found out about the pregnancy, I was absolutely grossed out. Horrified. Disgusted. I found out on a Friday, and by Monday, when I went for my blood test and scan, the pregnancy was on its way out. Was it by sheer determination on my part that it go away? Probably not, but I'll never know. I suppose some people decide not to have children for practical reasons (wanting to enjoy free time, disposable income and travel), or environmental reasons (overpopulation), but in my case, I just don't like them and never have.... Hope this doesn't fall into the TMI category! Good luck with your study.

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pompom
...I accidentally became pregnant (pill + stomach flu is not a good combo). Sometimes people say "if it is yours, you will love it". Well, I am living proof that it is not always true. When I found out about the pregnancy, I was absolutely grossed out. Horrified. Disgusted. I found out on a Friday, and by Monday, when I went for my blood test and scan, the pregnancy was on its way out. Was it by sheer determination on my part that it go away? Probably not, but I'll never know. I suppose some people decide not to have children for practical reasons (wanting to enjoy free time, disposable income and travel), or environmental reasons (overpopulation), but in my case, I just don't like them and never have....

This!

Here is one of my favorite articles about the decision to have children. It should be required reading for all prospective parents.

http://enlightenment.supersaturated.com/essays/text/carolynray/shame_children.html