"All women who have abortions are whores"

I can't seem to get it through some people's thick skulls that not everyone thinks a 7-week embryo is a baby. I got called a whore on another board while having a debate about abortion and mentioning that I'd had one. I even got asked if I'd "kill my husband's child." First off, I'm not going to get pregnant soon or ever, and if I did and we decided to abort it, it would be a joint decision and to us it wouldn't be a child yet. I also mentioned that most surveys say 35-40% of American women have had an abortion, so they probably know some of these "whores" pretty personally.

Why are the forced-birthers so much more shrill and so much more willing to stick their snouts where it doesn't belong?

This society has the Madonna/Whore Complex when it comes to women. So I have had an abortion. I'm a whore. Good! I would rather be a whore than the shining Madonna. A whore has more choices than a moo.

It does not matter if the fetus is a kid or not. The issue that it is my body, my life, and my choice. As for a joint decision, the man's choice is to shut the fuck up about my abortion. He has no say. Period.

CF Chicago Lawyer, you couldn't have picked a better title for this thread! You really did hit the nail on the head!:yr

It's really not about the bayyybeees at all! It's about keeping women down! The people who called you a whore are misogynistic assholes. Period. They are likely also just as threatened by the fact that you are a lawyer - a professional woman making her own money and being married by choice, and also choosing not to have kids.

All of this crap about saving the lives of baybees is total horseshit - the pro-lie people don't exactly line up to adopt orphans, do they? Or do they lift a single finger to help the single mothers that their ideology has created? It's really about trying to reign in women's sexuality. They figure that the only way to do it is to punish women by making them deal with the consequences of having sex - which is why they are anti-birth control as well, when logic would dictate that if they cared about saving babies, they would try to prevent unwanted pregnancies in the first place! Oh yeah, and when it comes down to it, screw the children! I swear, I see more genuine concern for kids in general shown on this board than I have EVER seen from a so-called pro-lifer!

George Lakoff gave a pretty good discussion of the issue in "Don't Think of and Elephant".

Also, babies are very profitable for the health industry, corporations, and churches.

Like Merc, says, follow the money. That's where the answers are almost all of the time.

My body gave me an abortion once. They call it a "miscarriage", and I'm glad it happened, because otherwise I would have had to pay to have one. I wasn't even aware I was pregnant until it happened. My periods were always two months apart.

I suppose you could call a woman who doesn't want to have a baby a "whore", since I'd imagine the bulk of unwanted pregnancies are terminated by women who have multiple sexual partners or who aren't contractually tied to their current partner. I don't find anything wrong with sex in those circumstances, other than most of these dips were probably not using birth control and are thus at risk of a lot more than just pregnancy. I count myself among those dips, and I am extremely lucky to be without STD or child.

"About 15 to 20 percent of known pregnancies end in miscarriage, and more than 80 percent of these losses happen before 12 weeks. Studies have found that 30 to 50 percent of fertilized eggs are lost before a woman finds out she's pregnant, because they happen so early that she goes on to get her period about on time."

If their God cares so much, why are women's bodies spontaneously aborting so often? Why is taking a pill to induce the same result such an issue?

Generally I am antiabortion, primarily because I think an ounce of prevention (birth control) is worth a pound of "cure" (abortion). With birth control widely available, at least in theory there should be little need for abortion as birth control. This does not apply to the "hard" cases such as rape, incest, fetal deformities, or mother's health, of course, but terminating a pregnancy for such a reason is not "birth control".

Even many pro-choice advocates admit to a disdain for abortion at some level. After all, the regimes that disturb us the most these days are those such as China or India that force abortions for population control or use abortion to select a child's gender. Also, one of the (untrue) factoids that the far right used against the former Soviet Union during the Cold War days in an attempt to demonize the Russian people was the claim that "the average Russian woman had six abortions".

That said, I also recognize that abortion is sometimes the least of all evils and forcing someone to carry a pregnancy to term is just as repugnant as China's coerced-abortions policy. There is a picture of women having the procedure as doing so for convenience so they can continue a promiscuous party lifestyle, which I know in the majority of instances is untrue; many women truly agonize over terminating a pregnancy.

Also, many of the same people who are adamantly "pro-life" in the US are religious fundies and other nuts who are just as adamantly anti-birth control and actually view babies as punishment for sex (though they seldom say that in those terms, but the sentiment is there). The general tone with many "pro-lifers" is misogynist. They are the main ones who want to make the procedure illegal. As stated, I don't like abortion, but in general I don't want the government meddling in the matter either, at least in the first trimester. If nothing else, making the procedure illegal or much harder to get would lead to the states or feds investigating miscarriages, among other things.

The people who would call women who have an abortion a "whore" are jerks. Many of those people are fundies, or share the same misogynist views. They have no clue about why someone might decide to have one or what kind of tragic circumstances might have led to the decision.

Therefore, Childfree Chicago Lawyer, there seems to be little sense in debating the nuttier pro-life types, especially if they start name calling. But I have to ask: out of curiosity, were those men or women responding to you?

k-man Wrote:
> Therefore, Childfree Chicago Lawyer, there seems
> to be little sense in debating the nuttier
> pro-life types, especially if they start name
> calling. But I have to ask: out of curiosity,
> were those men or women responding to you?

It's hard to tell on that message board, but it seems to have been all guys.

I am totally pro-choice, and the entire idea that you would be "killing your husband's child" is absolute bullshit to me. Whoever makes such a fucking stupid statement deserves a few hundred thousand whacks with a cluebat (hopefully an ash or oak Louisville slugger).

I always advise women to not have any sexual contact or even friendly contact with any man who is against abortion...even if he claims to be childfree-by-choice. Hell, the guy would still be CF in his mind as he would want the woman to give birth ...or worse yet, only want the abortion to avoid child support. I am leery of the anti-abortion CF'er. Glad to know who is who out there. I am very pro-abortion. No disdain from this pro-choice/pro-abortion woman! China's forced abortions does not bother me. What the hell is China supposed to do with so many people if they rampantly breed? We think overpopulation is bad in the States. Imagine China...

K-Man with all due respect, as a man you will never EVER know how horrifying it is to have an unwanted pregnancy. I've had two and two abortions. It is birth control.

I despise the attitude that it's "OK" for one person to have an abortion cause of her health, and not ok for me say, cause I screwed up and didn't use birth control.
Guess what? It's none of your business. I would never ever have sex with someone who wasn't 100% pro-choice.

China has a poor record of human rights. However, their population does need to be curbed in order to have quality of life for the people already alive.
And where do you see a disdain for abortion? Cite please.
I hate with a passion the words whore, slut, etc. Women are still being punished for their sexuality in the 21st century. And yes this includes you K-man for looking down on someone for having an abortion for birth control.

sharon j. Wrote:
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> K-Man with all due respect, as a man you will
> never EVER know how horrifying it is to have an
> unwanted pregnancy. I've had two and two
> abortions. It is birth control.
>
> I despise the attitude that it's "OK" for one
> person to have an abortion cause of her health,
> and not ok for me say, cause I screwed up and
> didn't use birth control.
> Guess what? It's none of your business. I would
> never ever have sex with someone who wasn't 100%
> pro-choice.

Exactly! Fucking pro-life men is like putting a death sentence on yourself. It is no one's fucking business WHY a woman aborts. Maybe k-man needs to get a vasectomy so he also makes certain those little babies are not being born. I've learned how not all childfree men are egalitarian. Many are just like their religious fundie peers.

K-man, you are disappointing me, your fellow brother. s Man, I am hurting. You are a dude, and you are anti-abortion. Come on, man, you can't do that to us, men.

If you mean that you would not force a woman to have an abortion, that's cool. If you always use a rubber - you are a smart man. If you refuse to have sex with a pro-lifer chick - you are using your head!

What would make you say pro-life like stuff? Aside from this board, why would you want to go that route? It's a sad, painful, way to live for a guy. Did you get that from a buddy of yours who's girlfriend got knocked up by someone other than him, so he wants her to now suffer? Is his GF fitting his definition of a BITCH? (BITCH - a girl who fucks anybody but him) I got cure for him. He needs to get laid and stop being a cry baby about it. There are plenty of willing out there. He needs to go out and get pumped. If he rides bare back, kick his ass. You know what I mean. If he needs a moral boost, let me know. I'll PM an interesting website info to you if you want. It will explain why guys do what they do and that knocking up a girlfriend is a stream that later becomes a river of tears for the poor bastard and his daddy.

There is absolutely no benefit to you being pro-life. If you are just being that way because all girls around you are like that, they jump at your throat for not drooling all over babies, they spit on people with no kids, you do not want to compromise your encounters and possibly loose your job because you work with them, hey, there is a better way. You can tell us here. We will listen, I can help. You would not want to get any from those attention whores anyways. You'd have to be snipped and use a rubber for the one-night-stands with breeders. Even then, they can drag you around in courts when a sancho from next door knocks them up.

If a kid route is the one you want to take, I'll respect that. But what are you coming here for? To discover how good CF is? OK. I'll tell you, it's good, there is no doubt about it. I'll also tell you that if you are new to CF deal, being soft about it will make breeders want to prove you wrong. Breeder girls will try to oops ya. Fence sitting girls will try to break ya. CF friends will shout at ya.

Look around, chose your ground. Stick with it. If you are uncertain about CF and you need more good reasons to become it and understand it, read my posts in "The Patio". Ask me if you need more info. If you want to parent, I cannot help much. I know very little about it and can tell you it's not for everyone. I am certain that if you wanted to research that "parenting" subject, there are many links there.

Being CF involves being open to ALL birth control methods. Abortion is a wonderful tool because if it did not work the first time, it can be done again. Abortion is by no means a painless procedure. In fact, it hurts - not so much mentally but mostly physically. Condoms, pills, tubal ligations, vasectomies, IUD's all have a certain failure rate. What do you do when they fail? You know the answer. Abortion is not a painless way out. If you do not shoot blanks, you could injure someone, they will bleed, one way or another.

Forced abortions in China are only bad because it's a way of telling a person what to do. It's a tough one, but I support it. If there is no birth rate reduction, they will all starve. They will start coming to the USA. They will be our problem. I do not know about abortions in Russia, but I was told their cost was 0 to an individual because they were paid for by their government. I am not big on government paying for things, but I'd rather see abortions being paid for rather than the public welfare of kids born by poor moos.

amethusos* Wrote:
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> Exactly! Fucking pro-life men is like putting a
> death sentence on yourself. It is no one's fucking
> business WHY a woman aborts. Maybe k-man needs to
> get a vasectomy so he also makes certain those
> little babies are not being born. I've learned how
> not all childfree men are egalitarian. Many are
> just like their religious fundie peers.


I am pro-life. Pro-life for the girl. If she chooses to keep it, that would be pro-death. It's a very slow, painful death.

I still don't get how hetero women, who have had more than one partner in their life, or who have unwed sex, are often called "sluts", yet men are never looked down upon for the same thing. Last I checked, it takes 2 to tango.

I'm so sick of all this shit. Misogynists, either go to hell or be celibate, so at least you won't be hypocrites.

guest Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I still don't get how hetero women, who have had
> more than one partner in their life, or who have
> unwed sex, are often called "sluts", yet men are
> never looked down upon for the same thing. Last I
> checked, it takes 2 to tango.
>
> I'm so sick of all this shit. Misogynists, either
> go to hell or be celibate, so at least you won't
> be hypocrites.

It's easy to call anyone a slut, whether it's a man or a woman. In many cases it's a matter of jealousy. If a young, good looking girl, goes out and gets guys left and right, because she looks good, then, an old bag, who cannot do the same, will call this young lady a slut. By doing so, she hopes do discourage the young one from getting all the guys and making the old bag feel like crap, because no man wants her.
Same goes for the boys. They get called male sluts for similar reasons.

A girl can also be called a slut based on what she wears. Why? Because if she gets more attention than the old bag, the old bag gets jealous. She too wants attention, but does not look good in short skirts. So, let's degrade the other and make the one feel better!

Anti-abortionists, too, are usually unattractive, jealous, two faced people. While one cannot completely control their outside appearance (some are just how they are genetically), the attitude and entitlement are learned and can be controlled by a mentally stable individual. Anti-abortionists generally have a hard time getting their hormonal satisfaction, so they they attempt to make others miserable too, as any misery loves company. If someone, other then them, can get what they want, that person must suffer. How dare they have fun?

I say, have fun with your body. If that is what makes you happy, do it. The only person that you are ultimately responsible to is yourself. No one else. There is no need to worry about pro-lifers, because, after all, they are trying to make themselves happy too by telling others what to do and show that they are important.

I have seen a daughter of a mormon priest getting an abortion pill and somehow had a "miscarriage". Some people were saying "how could she". I personally think that if she messed up once with birth control, at least she will use a rubber next time after feeling like shit and vomiting after the "pill". She is a smart girl for taking the pill. It could also be that her daddy did not want his ball punched for not "looking after" his daughter. She now knows to use a rubber before fucking another member of the mormon clergy.

Wow! I think many of you misunderstood or misconstrued my comments. I am not "pro-life" or a "forced-birther", but simply do not like abortion as a means of birth control. There is a difference. My point is that with all the types of birth control available, terminating a pregnancy that could/should have been prevented in the first place is far less desirable. And of course the man in the couple needs to exercise responsibility with birth control too. It shouldn't all fall on the woman as it too often does now.

I also said I don't want the government attempting to ban abortions, nor do I want women forced to give birth, but some of you twisted my words to the point that I didn't even recognize them. Please understand that my position is far more nuanced than that. I disdain abortion and view it as a tragedy, but would never ban it. Perhaps a better way to say it is that I am reluctantly pro-choice. Terminating a pregnancy after the fact simply isn't an ideal outcome. If birth control was properly used but failed, that's a whole different situation, as is a failed sterilization.

Keep in mind that I was actually on Childfree Chicago Lawyer's side when I asked her why she even tried to debate obvious fundie nuts who called her a name for having an abortion. I wouldn't call her a whore, nor do I think she is one. Some of you felt free to call me names, though, for not understanding what I was trying to say.

Amethusos had an abortion after she became pregnant when her first tubal ligation failed. Fine. I understand that. She then had a second tubal. Excellent. (In fact, I asked her before if she thought there was monkey business by a pro-breeder doctor with the first tubal, as we saw a lot of posters talking about failed tubals and vasectomies.) My quibble would have been if she did not have the second tubal, she and her partner did not use birth control, and she then kept getting pregnant and having abortions. That's the kind of scenario that the pro-life fundies latch upon as an excuse to try to pass restrictions on all abortions. You don't want that; neither do I. And as we all know, those same nuts don't like any birth control either.

To repeat my original point: an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. And discretion is the better part of valor.

I'm with K-man on this one as far as abortion should be the last line of defence. I do not view it as a great tragedy or anything, but it is an expensive and (unless you take a pill) invasive surgical procedure. There is always a chance of it going wrong, however rare. It is also rather unpleasant (I've worked in an abortion clinic, I know!) So yes - abortion on demand, but an ounce of prevention...

And we did have several someones who had 3-8 abortions... each within a few months of the other. The cumulative costs are prohibitive, not to mention possible advese effects rists with some many surgeries piled up keep increasing. I thought, Stupid much? Could have just gone on the Pill or had an IUD or something... I know they weren't using any contraception even hough they've been warned to do so after every abortion. Ah well, to each their own... If they want to risk health and pay out loads of money, who are we to stop them?

Also, about the population control issues: So they (China and India)have elective abortions in order to have a boy. Well great! This means there will be very few women in the next generation, thus limiting population growth severely. Then all the local boys'll be fighting over a rare chance to make it with a female. I think it's already happening in China.
Impaled on your own cultural prejudice. Priceless.

( and yes, this sort of discrimination against women pisses me off no end, but there is this one amusing side to it!!!)

k-man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Amethusos had an abortion after she became
> pregnant when her first tubal ligation failed.
> Fine. I understand that. She then had a second
> tubal. Excellent. (In fact, I asked her before
> if she thought there was monkey business by a
> pro-breeder doctor with the first tubal, as we saw
> a lot of posters talking about failed tubals and
> vasectomies.) My quibble would have been if she
> did not have the second tubal, she and her partner
> did not use birth control, and she then kept
> getting pregnant and having abortions. That's the
> kind of scenario that the pro-life fundies latch
> upon as an excuse to try to pass restrictions on
> all abortions. You don't want that; neither do I.
> And as we all know, those same nuts don't like
> any birth control either.

Since when did I ask for your approval regarding my abortion? Don't you DARE start any quibbles about what if's about my sexuality and abortions with your little scenarios. You do not have a right to have any quibbles about my behaviour. Gee...aren't you kind to understand...

I think this whole abortion thing is about control. The religious right and any other anti-abortion asshole is just pissed off because abortion alleviates the involved parties from a life time of grief. They need to get over it.

Could anyone tell me where the TRAGEDY in abortion is? I don't see it.
A woman, for whatever reason, has a clump of unwanted cells growing in her body. She decides that she will pony upwards of $500 to have that clump of growing cells removed from her body. Appointment made, clump removed, woman goes on with her life. And the tragedy there is? Really, I want to know.

Lets add that this woman is of no relation to you what so ever, your genetic material is not a part of that growing clump of cells, you are not performing the procedure, nor are you profiting from it. Then my question expands even further to "What business is it of yours anyway?"

How is it any business of yours if and why women get abortions? Do you care if women get pap smears? Mammograms? Physicals? Prescription shoe inserts? Happy pills? Skin tabs removed? If you don't care about these, why do you care about abortions? They all are medical procedures that should be kept between a woman and the health care provider. Kind of like guys getting prostrate checks, testicular exams or warts removed, it's their decision, their business, and I could care less either way.

I think of a tragedy as being much more serious than a simple medical procedure to remove a growing clump of unwanted cells. Tragedy in my book is things like: children being sold into prostitution by desperate parents, people working in sweatshops to make $200 shoes, people dying from tainted food because companies cut back on safety measures to make more profit, children born into families that do not want them, the abuse of children/animals/the elderly/the disabled, the "poor mans" draft, rapists and murders getting out of prison to make room for pot smokers, corporations rebuilding New Orleans as a playground for the rich, you know...stuff that actually effects actual people living on this earth right now. Tragedy does not happen to unformed, unwanted, growing clumps of cells, and if you believe it does, then I suggest you you start fighting for the rights of cancerous tumors everywhere.

"It truly is the one commonality that every designation of humans you can think of has, there's at least one asshole."
--Me

K-man, all kinds of failures happen with birth control. It a woman wants an abortion once a month - that is her body that will be harmed. For every abortion she gets, she must sign a paper that explains certain risks. I think abortions are self-decided upon. There is no need to tell a woman how they fell, because she will experience it in her own body. I do not know which women use abortion as birth control, but I know that they must be craving a ton of physical pain and some large blood losses.

Newbie, as far as abortion costs go, USA government pays $0 towards abortions. It's not uncommon to see a bill close to $800 by the time it's all said and done. It's that patient's money and I am certain that she would rather spend it on something else. If she comes back for abortion after abortion, that's her deal. We do not know the story. Birth control fails all the time.

As far as failed tubals and vasectomies, it's a mystery to me. I know this much. Medicine is practiced and was never mastered. True and detailed outcome of any procedure is unknown and uncertain. We can only see the historic outcome that was prevalent. Medicine does not know all possible outcomes to everything. Some people can never get cancer, some never get cavities in teeth. No doctor knows for certain what will work and what will not. I saw a show on Discovery channel where a person was stabbed in the heart and lived! Explain that!

At the end of the day, abortion is not a pleasant procedure. It is not as pleasant as a good massage. There is no need to limit or discourage the procedure. No woman loves it and no woman is going to want to do it regularly. I think that birth control is usually used by people who get abortions. Sometimes, different stuff happens. Things fail, get forgotten about and so on. Abortions are great and require no questioning.

I do not for one fucking nanosecond regret that abortion that I had when I was younger. I was stupid and I thought I was in love with a guy that turned out to be a pimple on the on the asshole of humanity. My period was late, and he was out of the picture faster than an icecube on a Phoenix sidewalk in the middle of August. I ran to the nearest abortion clinic and did not look back. I never wanted his brat, and when he ran out I knew it was time to flush the damn fuck trophy.

If men had to carry a uterine parasite, they would immediately put out a bounty on every fetus aborted. Matter of fact, men would be celebrating their lack of sperm infection by drinking themselves into a stupor at some dive bar.

Men who tell me they are "pro-choice but anti-abortion" have no fucking clue. To paraphrase a lovely signature line that I see at many childfree sites, my uterus is a brat-free zone.

A poster at some board put it this way: you can't force death row immates to donate organs or blood. Fine, they shouldn't have to either. But "they" the fundies want to be able to stop women having a medical procedure? By signing into law the so-called "Partial Birth Abortion" ban back in 2001 I think Bush has already done it. Women who terminated after 6 months usually do so for their health, or because the fetus is dead, or severly damaged.
So the fundies are trying to put women rights below that of an immate on death row. Think about it. We need the ERA fight to start up again.
Thank you to all the men who think that we have a right to our own body too!