Sorry, breeders. I have no qualms about 'getting away with it'.

The older I get, the more confirmation I get that most of the flak we get from the childed set comes down to "But you shouldn't get away with that!". Seriously. There is a really strong cultural message that you can goof off until you hit your mid-twenties. If you finish college you get a pass until you're around thirty. Then you have to pay for those years of fun by settling down with (or settling for) a spouse, buying a single-family home and at least two cars, and having at least two kids. The debt, stress, and lack of sex are payment for the fun you had earlier.

I haven't gotten direct flak about this for years, but when I did point out that Spouse and I were paying our own bills, supporting ourselves, AND giving to the community via volunteer work and donations to charity when we could, that pretty much shut them up, because they weren't about to come out and say "You shouldn't be able to have such a good sex life for free. Kids are supposed to be the price you pay for that! And stop spending so much time together having fun. It's not supposed to be about you and your spouse once you're past thirty!"

Seriously. Anyone else notice that a lot of the objections boil down to "You shouldn't be able to get away with that!"?

Not my fault they bought into the puritan fear that someone, somewhere is having fun.

Oh, yeah. Definitely with you.

Honestly, I think that's where virtually all the bingoing I get from my family comes from.

These are women raised in a conservative Catholic Italian family. The majority of them hated parunthood. Honestly, I think my CF-ness is genetic, like nature is trying to put a stop to the crazy fuckers, but growing up in that environment, not breeding wasn't really an option.

They hate me for choosing not to breed. Seriously. They wish bad things on me. They guilt me. They say, "Why are you too good for the life we had? What's so great about you?"

Well, the fact that I can think for myself, for one.

And really, it just comes down to one simple thing: they're pissed that I'm choosing to enjoy my life. That I don't feel like I should "pay" with 20 years of misery and slavery to a shrieking spawn, 20 years of poverty, 20 years enduring some Og that I can't stand.

They're jealous. Simple as that.

I've gotten this too (mid 20s).

Surprisingly, I've never had anyone bug me about babbies, but I have had people seem jealous/miffed by the following things:

- I still like to go out clubbing. It's like people have this stereotype that going clubbing AUTOMATICALLY means that you have to try and fit in with a bunch of 18-yr-olds, drink 15 shots of vodka, be loud and drunk and annoying and continue getting trashed until you get hangovers, that it's "immature" once you're no longer in college etc. Bullshit. I like to go out with friends my age in their 20s (around my age), MAYBE have some few drinks but it's not necessary to have fun, and hit up some nightclubs with throbbing music, and just dance. There's nothing "immature" about this. I work for my own living, pay my own bills, drive my ass to work in my own car, live in my own apartment, and have major future goals including grad school and doing things to help fix problems in the world as best I can. I am not living some "I care about nothing but parties" lifestyle, but it's like people think that if you go clubbing, it's automatically what you're all about. For the record, I have more introverted friends who aren't into going out as much, and I can have just as much fun doing quieter one-on-one things with them. I'm not shallow and I don't **HAVE** to party 24/7, but I do like to go club and dance a couple times a month or so. And there's NOTHING wrong with that!!

- I'm a night-owl. I get up for work at around 8, and I only need 6 hrs or so of sleep, so I will regularly stay up until 2 in the morning chugging away at my fantasy novel. No, I'm not going to start "unwinding" after work and going to bed at 10:00. Of course there's nothing wrong with that for people who do go to bed earlier, but it's annoying how lifescripters just expect EVERYONE to.

- The fact that I still have future goals. My plans for the next 5-10 years include working another year or two to save for grad school, then going on a humanitarian trip for a year or so (organization similar to Peace Corps), then graduate school (dual program for two fields I really enjoy, and I can pay for it myself due to busting my ass at work and living a ramen noodle lifestyle to save all my money), earn a teaching/professor job if I can so I can have weekends (edit: meant to say summers) off to volunteer in other countries, and have a FUN, meaningful life. My future plans are NOT "settle down, get married, buy a house, and become home-oriented." I'm not bashing that for people who want it, but it's just NOT ME, hence will not be my life!

Edit to add - on that note - the fact that I'm slaving away 1) gaining work experience and 2) saving most of my money for grad school, so I won't be in a shit-ton of debt, pisses people off. They start bingoing me to go to grad school right away and take out loans for everything, and start going on about how i'm screwing myself over by not going STRAIGHT out of undergrad because now it's less likely I'll even go at all. Umm, no, fuckwit. And this topic only comes up when they ask about my future goals, or whatever - I don't go around bragging, or anything. Why the hell are people offended that I'm doing this my own way, which I think is wisest for my own self?

- The fact that I still continue to work on my goals such as writing stories, art, etc, and I still plan to get published, even if it takes me a long time of re-editing and getting better and multiple tries. I'm not going to fall into the trap of "oh, ho hum, I used to have dreams but they're toooo hawwwrd, i'm going to "realistic" now, hum drum." For some reason this mildly miffs people sometimes.

- People get lightly taken aback about the fact that I'm not interested in dating. If a hot guy asked me out right now, I'd tell him that he's an awesome person and I wish him luck, but I'm not in a position to be interested in a relationship. The fact that I don't want to "let the wind take you where it may" and date people being open about long-term bugs people sometimes. They don't say anything, but they just seem a little miffed from facial cues etc. I seriously don't get why. If I'm not interested in a LTR, I'm not going to go on a date without being super clear about it and keeping things casual.,
The only reason I can think of is that I'm "supposed" to be dating so I can be married and having 2.5 kydzz by my early 30s. NOT ON MY AGENDA! NO THANKS!!


Another thing I've found is that, for a lot of people, it's not about kids vs. CF. It's about the lifescripter life. With some people, it's like they'd be fine if I didn't have kids, as long as I had the "boring suburb house, 2 cars, white picket fence, go to work and go home at a hum-drum office job, only social life is a romantic partner, go to bed at 10 and extent of outings is the neighbor's barbecue" life. But I don't want that, and the fact that I'm paving an adventurous and different life for myself seems to be what gets some of these breeders' panties in a twist.

Jealous mothafuckers, is the only thing I can think of.

I agree with Thundergirl. It is like... I don't know. They think that you have to give up happiness and fun. It is like those pathetic lists that claim that having kids is a good thing because, Disneyworld! Well, I can go to Disneyworld without kids, you know? And have a lot more fun to boot.

The astonishing thing is that many, though not all, of people who reason in that way are incredibly immature.

_______________________

“I was talking about children that have not been properly house-trained. Left to their own impulses and indulged by doting or careless parents almost all children are yahoos. Loud, selfish, cruel, unaffectionate, jealous, perpetually striving for attention, empty-headed, for ever prating or if words fail them simply bawling, their voices grown huge from daily practice: the very worst company in the world. But what I dislike even more than the natural child is the affected child, the hulking oaf of seven or eight that skips heavily about with her hands dangling in front of her -- a little squirrel or bunny-rabbit -- and prattling away in a baby's voice.”


― Patrick O'Brian, The Truelove


lib'-er-ty: the freedom given to you to make the wrong decision, based on the reasoned belief that you will normally make the right one.

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thundergirl85
Another thing I've found is that, for a lot of people, it's not about kids vs. CF. It's about the lifescripter life. With some people, it's like they'd be fine if I didn't have kids, as long as I had the "boring suburb house, 2 cars, white picket fence, go to work and go home at a hum-drum office job, only social life is a romantic partner, go to bed at 10 and extent of outings is the neighbor's barbecue" life. But I don't want that, and the fact that I'm paving an adventurous and different life for myself seems to be what gets some of these breeders' panties in a twist.

Jealous mothafuckers, is the only thing I can think of.

I think there's some serious truth to this.

I think for a lot of us, CF was one of the first anti-lifescript things we realized about ourselves (I'm guessing so based on the very young age a lot of us report knowing we were CF).

And something beautiful happens when you reject one piece of the lifescript -- especially such a BIG piece.

You realize that every other part of it is optional, too. Not just kids. All of it.

Who says you need to get a house?

Who says you need to get married?

Who says you need to be a white collar worker bee?

Who says you need to do ANY of that?

No one. In reality, you can do whatever you want.

And so, I think, for a lot of us, realizing we're CF serves as a stepping stone to freeing us mentally to pursue whatever kind of life we want without shame, which means that some of us will have very non-traditional lives.

And seeing us do that pisses them off even more.

You're right. They could almost get over us not having kids, as long as we still felt beholden to living a similar hum-drum life to what they do.

They could get over the fact that we get more sleep and have fewer messes and more money, as long as we're still bored with our existence like they are.

But seeing us realize we don't have to accept ANY of the lifescript nonsense is just more than they can handle. They can't handle the idea that not only are we free of children, but we're actually DOING something with that freedom.

"Seriously. Anyone else notice that a lot of the objections boil down to 'You shouldn't be able to get away with that!'?"



Yes, I have. And I have news for these bints. It's my life, and my marriage and it IS all about my spouse and me. And if they don't like it, they can take a long walk off a short pier!

I agree.

It’s almost as if people are offended that a CF life runs so smoothly. Not to say a CF life is completely free of problems; but compared to a life where kids are present, the intelligent and responsible CF are making out like bandits. And to some groups of people, it’s just downright egregious.

The “selfish” grenade (which all of us have had chucked our way in the past and present) is pretty much an attempt at retribution for our… “crimes”, so to speak. I’m a single, CF male who has two jobs and comfortably lives alone. My credit is stellar and the bank account gets considerably larger with each pay period. Bills are paid with ease, and vacays, although not as frequent as I’d like, are simply magnificent. The free time on the weekends allows for hobbies and R&R to get ample amounts of attention.

And cue the grenade in 3… 2… 1…

“Isn’t that kinda’ selfish?”

My answer: If it’s selfish to you, that suggests you have things in mind that I could be doing with my time.

So yeah, I too am happy to be "getting away with it."

My husband and I stopped at a small B&B on vacation many years ago. We were going to visit some historic sites and just get away for a while. When we went to breakfast the next morning one of the owners (a couple) looked at us and asked us how we got away from the family to go on our trip. My husband and I just looked at each other, confused, then I told her it was just us. Well, you could have heard a pin drop, there were two other couples at the table besides the owners and they all just stared at us as an uncomfortable silence set in. You would have thought we had just told them we were ax murders hiding from the police.

Yes, I believe people basically can't handle it when you evade the common life script. If they are strangers, they are aghast, if they consider themselves "friends" they make it their purpose to inform you of how wrong you are for not following along. They simply never knew anyone could do such a thing, and how dare it be YOU!

I get that "but there's more to life than just pleasing yourself and having fun isn't there?"

There is this idea that if you're CF your life is all about late nights and drinking and partying and meals out and loud sex and lie ins, and that we live this frivolous lifestyle. Actually, me and my OH work really hard, often harder than childed colleagues who swan off early to pick up the kydzz or go to the school play or get to "work from home" because Snotley is sick. We are saving for our own place, so we don't go out nearly as much as we used to.

I am a cyclist/mountain biker and do a lot of sport, like climbing, adventure racing and triathlon. I got stick from my parents saying that my sports are selfish and self focused and when am I going to settle down and think of others besides myself (ie have kids) - I do think of others plenty, my partner, my dog, my friends, and I am also training to do cycling and running with the blind. Just because I don't want chyyldren, doesn't mean I am incapable of thinking of the needs of others or putting others before myself. It bugs me no end when people assume that I have a certain kind of lifestyle or outlook simply because I'm CF - I am not the same as evey single other CF person in the planet, as this forum shows we're a very diverse bunch, with different interests, personalities, likes and dislikes. We can't be lumped together in the "selfish childfree" basket, but I think it makes miserable breeders feel better about themselves to do just that.

I always find the "selfish" argument to be really ironic.

They're the ones playing god and forcing people into the world without consent, simply because they want to, just so those newly created people can suffer and die.

And we're the ones who are "selfish"?

Sorry, but bullshit.

After all the shit I've been through in my life, I have NO qualms about thinking about myself now. If breeders don't like it, TFB.

Breeders can call us selfish, but the reality is that THEY are the ones who can't think outside of their own little famblee bubbles. They don't even look after their pets properly, because they are considered inconveniences once the loaves start showing up.

I enjoy my quiet, peaceful life. I don't have to worry about raising another human being, and how THAT person will turn out. I just have to worry about putting food on the table for myself, paying my own bills and putting a roof over my own head.

I can't afford to go out and party like mad or spend my money on crazy, frivolous items. I look after myself, and make sure that I'm mentally and physically healthy, and my bills are paid. Selfish? Hardly. More like taking responsibility for my life and making good personal decisions.

Since I live on the warm and fuzzy west coast, where it would be rude and mean to actually be forthright about one's idiotic prejudices, I haven't gotten many direct bingoes. It's mostly followed a path rich with nonverbal innuendo:
1. Person assumes that because I have boobs (and, apparently, a "nurturing" vibe), I have a tribe of crotchfruit at home. (On the plus side, this did earn me some free mimosas on Mother's Day this year :beer )
2. Person asks outright about "my kids", or I volunteer that there aren't any; they assume I'm miserably barren and drop the subject, out of profound respect for my disappointing uterus.
3. On rare occasions (i.e. the silly sod is actually trying to get to know me for some reason), they'll press as to Why There Aren't Any Children in the Picture, and I will flat-out tell them that it was my choice. Usually I only get to this stage of escalation if the ASSumer is a religious type or a new coworker.
4. Person does a slow take, as if I had suddenly started hurling Latin invective in a guttural voice and spewing pea soup. The conversation grinds to a halt, or at the very least an extended awkward pause.
5. Person, from then on, either ignores me-- or, if they have to deal with me, get that feverish, toothy-smile expression one might adapt when having a gun waved in one's face.
6. Invitations to anything social dry up with a quickness... and I am labeled "anti-social".

Seriously, I'd rather just get bingoed outright. Call me selfish to my face, delivered with a patented Sweet Little Smile (TM), and let's just get this shit out in the open.
Ooh, sorry, too mean and aggro? Yeah, honesty like that is almost as scary as odd ducks who don't follow the LifeScript, and most people just can't handle that.

Lifescripters have a really warped view on what's selfish. Selfishness just means that you expect/want to get your way at the expense of someone else, or in a way that violates someone's rights. For example, if I was working on a group project, and I wanted to ditch early but it meant that everyone else would have to stay an hour later to do the extra work I left behind, that'd be selfish. But if I did all my fair share plus more, and no one was hurt because of my leaving early, and no one got dumped with my share, then it's not selfish. See? It's a matter of, does it hurt other people, or no.

Even if someone DOES choose to just relax and/or party nonstop, as long as they are supporting themselves and not tromping on anyone else's ability to live life as they wish, who the fuck cares? They're still paying taxes for schools, etc.

I get that a lot of us do have goals/lives/purposes beyond ourselves, like being part of humanitarian organizations or animal rights or the military, or helping other family members (such as being a caregiver for an elderly person or helping nieces/nephews etc) or friends, or local volunteering, and it's ANNOYING when people think we're nothing but the "me and my spouse only" bubble. I get the annoyance of that stereotype, I really do.

BUT - lifescripters often have the "just me and my spouse" or "just me, spouse and kids" mentality, and no one calls them selfish. It's like they think that it's selfish to pursue our dreams and live outside the box and do fun things, because they can't.

It's like they want to drag others down with them. They can't be adventurous, fun, mobile, live for a big purpose, playful, independent, freedom-having and the other things that we are (I mean lifescripter mentality people, not just specifically childed people - I do know PNBs who are freespirited and driven and who can have fun etc). So, they act like, out of jealousy, EVERYONE should be like them, to validate them.

In their pea brains, we are "selfish" if our lives make them jealous. Because the jealously twinges them, and miffs them, they think we slight them, and thus are selfish/offensive.

They need to get lives.

Oh, indeed, randomcfchick, indeed - there are even some passive-aggressive phrases that make the jealous folks think they're being subtle, when they aren't. "Must be nice." is still the one that everyone knows makes me want to stab people.

Right now, I'm lining up my comebacks, because I've committed a hardcore CF-selfishness sin, and I expect to get at least a hint of that 'you can't do that' from people I actually like. After getting my associate's degree, and after my office dissolved my position, my DH encouraged me to be a SAHW. This gives me more time to adjust to recent PTSD-recovery changes, and to work on my novel. I can already hear the thinly veiled judgment/jealousy. eyes2

I'm open to suggestions. I don't have to justify my life choices, and I don't want to be outright horrible to someone, but I love a good comedy. The best part is usually when they ask how my DH and I can make that choice. No kids. We're not living in the lap of luxury, we're just fairly frugal, simple in our tastes, and never wanted kids. Amazing how much money you save, isn't it?

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mumofsixbirds
After all the shit I've been through in my life, I have NO qualms about thinking about myself now. If breeders don't like it, TFB.

THIS.

Totally getting away with this. Not looking forward to the snark, but it's a small price to pay...

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"They will say that you are on the wrong road, if it is your own." ~Antonio Porchia

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Edit to add - on that note - the fact that I'm slaving away 1) gaining work experience and 2) saving most of my money for grad school, so I won't be in a shit-ton of debt, pisses people off. They start bingoing me to go to grad school right away and take out loans for everything, and start going on about how i'm screwing myself over by not going STRAIGHT out of undergrad because now it's less likely I'll even go at all. Umm, no, fuckwit. And this topic only comes up when they ask about my future goals, or whatever - I don't go around bragging, or anything. Why the hell are people offended that I'm doing this my own way, which I think is wisest for my own self?

I think you are very smart to do this AND working a year or two is becoming more the norm. A lot of business schools require at least year. From my own experience of having gong straight through and seeing students now who have a year or two of the real world under their belts, I think that the latter are better prepared to deal with the work and stress. I

Not a rebuttal in the slightest..just a somewhat-related thought I've had in my head for a long time concerning the use of the word "selfish" as a bingo/insult to the CF.

Dictionary definitions of "selfish" generally sum up as: primarily interested in one's own interest, advantage, etc., often to the exclusion of all others.

Yep, that's what was in my mind when I decided for certain that I didn't want kids. MY interests, because it would be MY responsibility.

And when it comes down to it, that's what's on parents' minds when they make the opposite decision. They become parents because THEY want it.

The decision to have/not have kids IS a selfish one, and that's good. It comes down to "I want a kid" or "No, I don't". Period. Both of those are choices made at the most selfish level, no matter whether you choose to parent or not.

Kinda takes the teeth out of the 'selfish' bingo. Not that it ever had much to begin with.

Back to "you're getting away with it"...I think also part of what they can't stand us "getting away with": recreational sex. They don't like thinking that a LOT of CF people just may get to have good sex lives. Because the main culture is so sex-negative, the lifescript clearly states that adults (particularly women) who enjoy sex & don't pay a price in babies are just morally flawed. Enjoying sex because it's fun is immature if you're a male, and just sick if you're female.

I'm not "getting away" with it - I'm still going to die, just like they are (unless I can figure out an alternative, and the odds are slim). I don't know why it's so hard for them to figure out that the time between now and when I die is mine. There's no sense in squandering it doing things I don't enjoy which don't form a part of a larger goal, because it's not as if someone's going to pat me on the back at the end of my life and give me a cookie for every unnecessary sacrifice I made.

Reproduction is only ONE of the many things sex can be for. It can also simply be how boys and girls play together when they get older. It can be a beautiful bonding and loving experience that says, "I trust you enough to come to you in my most vulnerable way." I think most breeders still remember those few minutes at the beginning when they were actually in love (or thought they were), and can't forgive people like some of us for having it most of the time. They made a dumb decision and they'll just be Double-Dog-Damned if anyone else can be allowed to decide differently.

I was never good at listening to what everyone else said about my life. When I got to college, I realized things don't have to be so black and white or straight line. So I decided to stray from a secure, very low risk path yet miserable to a high risk, not so successful yet happy one. I was lost for a while but something gave me a slap to another world and I woke up. I decided to walk my own path and my own pace. I was never good at following without asking 'why?'.

I think they don't like to think or teach their children to think outside the box. They feel like it's their job to assure human race will continue and their own family line will prevail through time and space. For them having children is motive to be proud. They feel like they're winning an award. All that hard work has to have some worth. When they encounter people who feel just as happy without doing the same thing, they start to question their choices and think about all they lost doing it. It's like "I did everything I was supposed to do but they look happier/more fulfilled/more rewarded than I do? I did what was right! I got married, had a bunch of kids, raised them right and yet I feel like I missed something big."
That's what happens when you dive into a life you have a faint idea of. Parents who are sure of what they're doing and achieve their goals even when they're raising their kids won't think the same way. But that's like 10% of the population.

The right thing to do? For me is living without intentionally harming physically another living being, I don't know about others. Outside my employment there isn't anything thing that's 'what I should be doing'. There isn't a written path for everyone. The choices you make in life will form your path, so I don't expect anyone to follow the same path as me. We're all different after all. Being human is just like that. You'll meet people with different paths.

I have to be honest. When a couple with no children engages in a conversation with me (beyond where are you from and where are you going) and we end up in the topic of kids, I ask why. I don't make any judging faces, I just ask why. Just out of curiosity. But I'll apologize if they're uncomfortable answering. Haven't met one CF yet. Just CL (couldn't have them and didn't want to adopt; were always ambiguous about it and it didn't happen...).
I'm not bothered by questions, as long as they're free from 'GASP' and blank looks.

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"Don't you know how to deal with children?!"
"I don't like animals who act on instinct."
I think you're on to something Akihiko.

"Getting away with it" - what bullshit! These life-scripters ARE jealous of the childfree or else they wouldn't say nonsense like that. Fucking morons.

I haven't hit 20 yet, but I've heard this too. Much of my family tends to look down on anyone who hasn't "settled" yet, despite that none of the relatives who have "settled" are even remotely qualified to give marriage/relationship advice and whatnot.

Since I'm in college, I'm being told to stay away from the guys for now, but in about five years - ooh, boy! - I will be in for it!

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"Be yourself, no matter what. Some will adore you, and some will hate everything about you, but who cares?

It's your life. Make the most out of it."

Heard this somewhere about the "selfish" thing, and it makes sense to me...

Everything that everyone ever does is "selfish" in some way. No one ever does anything without the expectation of a positive outcome in their favor. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. Actually, most of the time, it isn't. At its most basic, eating a healthy diet, getting healthy activity, taking meds when you need them, etc. are "selfish" - they benefit one in a positive way. This would extend to getting a good education, getting a job that fits you well, having a good work/personal life balance, good stress management, etc. - these are all "selfish" too. Even things such as working with charities, serving your community, giving love and support to friends/family are "selfish" in the sense that one does them because it satisfies them by doing what they feel is the right thing in life because they care, and want to express it.

So, if you look at things this way, being "selfish" is most always a good thing, although most like to throw it around as an insult.

A breeder family used to live across the street from me.

EVERY night, including weekends, all the lights were shut off in their house and they were in bed by 10 pm.

I could NEVER live my life like that!

Can you imagine, day in and day out, being a slave all day, then going to bed obscenely early only to do it ALL AGAIN the next fucking day?

I would kill myself.

~~~~~~~~~~~
I miss my little feather baby.

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redheadedharlot
Heard this somewhere about the "selfish" thing, and it makes sense to me...

Everything that everyone ever does is "selfish" in some way. No one ever does anything without the expectation of a positive outcome in their favor. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. Actually, most of the time, it isn't. At its most basic, eating a healthy diet, getting healthy activity, taking meds when you need them, etc. are "selfish" - they benefit one in a positive way. This would extend to getting a good education, getting a job that fits you well, having a good work/personal life balance, good stress management, etc. - these are all "selfish" too. Even things such as working with charities, serving your community, giving love and support to friends/family are "selfish" in the sense that one does them because it satisfies them by doing what they feel is the right thing in life because they care, and want to express it.

So, if you look at things this way, being "selfish" is most always a good thing, although most like to throw it around as an insult.

I've tried to explain this to my mom and her partner, both of whom have children, and they just don't seem to get the concept.

I explain that babies are naturally selfish because it helps/helped them survive (evolution) and they look at me like I'm nuts.

I'm "negative" when I explain that even acts like donating to the poor can be selfish because the person in question gets rewarded for it in the form of self-gratification, so the act is, therefore, NOT altruistic.

This isn't bad -- it's simply a fact.

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grammarnut

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redheadedharlot
Heard this somewhere about the "selfish" thing, and it makes sense to me...

Everything that everyone ever does is "selfish" in some way. No one ever does anything without the expectation of a positive outcome in their favor. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. Actually, most of the time, it isn't. At its most basic, eating a healthy diet, getting healthy activity, taking meds when you need them, etc. are "selfish" - they benefit one in a positive way. This would extend to getting a good education, getting a job that fits you well, having a good work/personal life balance, good stress management, etc. - these are all "selfish" too. Even things such as working with charities, serving your community, giving love and support to friends/family are "selfish" in the sense that one does them because it satisfies them by doing what they feel is the right thing in life because they care, and want to express it.

So, if you look at things this way, being "selfish" is most always a good thing, although most like to throw it around as an insult.

I've tried to explain this to my mom and her partner, both of whom have children, and they just don't seem to get the concept.

I explain that babies are naturally selfish because it helps/helped them survive (evolution) and they look at me like I'm nuts.

I'm "negative" when I explain that even acts like donating to the poor can be selfish because the person in question gets rewarded for it in the form of self-gratification, so the act is, therefore, NOT altruistic.

This isn't bad -- it's simply a fact.

I had a few classes of psychology in high school where they explained this. They also explained the myth of children's innocence. They are not innocent, they just don't know or aren't capable of fully understanding it. Plus, they don't really care about anything else. Just themselves.

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"Don't you know how to deal with children?!"
"I don't like animals who act on instinct."
I think you're on to something Akihiko.