2071 does anyone feel this way?

Snaggle, I do feel the same way as you. One of the reasons I don't want kids is because I don't want to bring a child into this messed-up world, nor do I want to have a child and make mistakes raising it and thereby traumatizing it.

I knew as a youngster how moohood was an oppressive leghold trap for women. I also did not like being around other children. This was long before I knew about the environment or feminism. I had a stepbrother who did not want to breed with his former wife due to not wanting to bring a child into this overppopulated, crime-ridden world...yet he & Wifey #2 now have their squirming baby. Many environmentalist people often do breed feeling how "theirs" will be so different...

"FUCK WORK"

these are some of my reasons, environmental impact, the wastage produced by children.. etc.. these are all things in themselves wouldnt count for much, but they are the last few snowflakes than causes the avalanche..

your not alone, we may not all have the same ideas, but a fair few feel like you do snaggle

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I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

That's why I'm always really disappointed in socially, politically and environmentally conscious people who keep bitching that the world is going to hell and yet decide to sprog anyway. See: the members of Radiohead, for example.

I don't know anything about Radiohead. Do they complain about the state of the world in their songs, and yet breed?

I continue to be surprised and disappointed, but I guess I should just get used to how backwards everyone is. On the one hand, most people complain (at least once in awhile) about how hard life is, and how miserable they are. Even if they don't overtly complain, I'm sure they think it to themselves. Then on the other hand, they have kids or talk about how they're planning to. It's like a massive disconnect. It's cognitive dissonance in action. I just don't get it. Sometimes I feel like I surely must be from another planet, because I look around me and am confused as hell.

People are either really dumb, really brainwashed, or just in major denial.

Snaggle Wrote:
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> I don't know anything about Radiohead. Do they
> complain about the state of the world in their
> songs, and yet breed?

Yes, they do. And they each have, like, 2 or 3 brats by now. I'm almost ashamed to be a fan.

I remember Kurt Cobain bitching about the state of the world. And yet, not only did he breed, but he killed himself shortly after the baybee was born. Hello?!

I hate to say it but the "environmentalists" are the biggest breeders. They are usually Caucasions who tend to believe how overpopulation is only caused by non-white people in third world nations. Never mind that it is people - like most of us - in the USA who use most of the world's resources. Look at Al Gore (I apologize in advance if I offend anyone who likes the man). He write the book and produces the movie about environmental issues yet he and his wife, Tipsy...oops, I mean Tipper...have FOUR children! I also have a friend who worked for an environmentalist group yet her supervisor just had to have one baby with the wifey...

"FUCK WORK"

good point, amethusos

I have often thought the same thing about Al Gore. There are prominent ecologists out there who are the same way. They preach about the imminent disaster to the planet caused by the ever burgeoning population, and yet they themselves breed. Some examples: Paul Ehr lich (author of The Pop ulation Bomb), Jared Dia mond (author of Coll apse, among others). I heard through the grapevine (someone who knows him personally) that Diamond and his wife even have twins as a result of in vitro! Nice...

Medusa Wrote:
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> I remember Kurt Cobain bitching about the state of
> the world. And yet, not only did he breed, but he
> killed himself shortly after the baybee was born.
> Hello?!

I think Courtney had him knocked off. A lot of evidence points to it. See "Kurt & Courtney" and read "Who Killed Kurt Cobain?"

I have always wondered about this with respect to activists and environmentalists. If the world is so awful, filthy, and going to hell in a handbag, why are you breeding?

The excuse I keep hearing is that *their* kids are going to be the ones who will "change the world" for the better. Yeah, and I bet they'll cure cancer too!

CFScorpio Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Medusa Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I remember Kurt Cobain bitching about the state
> of
> > the world. And yet, not only did he breed, but
> he
> > killed himself shortly after the baybee was
> born.
> > Hello?!
>
> I think Courtney had him knocked off. A lot of
> evidence points to it. See "Kurt & Courtney" and
> read "Who Killed Kurt Cobain?"

Dang...that is rough! Why do people think Courtney had the guy knocked off???

"FUCK WORK"

This is very similar to the reason why I chose to remain childfree. In a nutshell, the world IS going to hell in a handbasket as a result of global warming and peak oil. No, there is NO CONTROVERSEY in the scientific world about this at all. Yes, regardless of what spin is being put on it, all of the articles in the scientific journals are basically unanimous on the subject. It's not a matter of IF, it's a matter of WHEN. It's ugly and only going to get uglier. Hell, we may even be seeing an ice age in our lifetimes because of this. Exciting, isn't it?

Knowing this, you can't possibly argue that popping out your own kid is anything other than selfish and immoral. Yes that's right, breeders. You have condemned your children to an uncertain and possibly even nightmarish future not just because you had them, but because of all of the shitty choices you make every day (to drive SUV's, eat meat, etc.). And you call US selfish? Go fuck yourselves.

Yes, I know that's a cruel thing to say. But is it any crueler than condemning an innocent, young person to life (and death) in ecological collapse just because "I WAAAAAAAAAAAAANT A BAAAAAAAAYYYYYBEEEEEE!"

Valkyrie:

There is plenty of controversy about what is going on, though we do know the general trend of weather is not positive. The UN task force was forced to lower its estimates on the effect of humans in the process of the changing climate. For every journal article that points out global warming, there are two or three that look at other potential mechanisms. The very nature of science is constant doubt, creating further exploration and better evaluation methods. The consensus that many people believe exists among meteorologists and other earth sciencists on future weather patterns does not exist. There is enough doubt as to the exact mechanism of action--and that is the fundamental thing that science is intended to do--examine these problems using a set of tools and standards that are rigid in their discipline and require high standards of "proof", for lack of better terms.

There have been people who have called for prosecution of scientists who do not believe in a global warming orthodoxy. This is an abjectly studid and abysmally evil idea. Scientists have the same right to freedom of speech and exchange of ideas as anyone else, and in particular the advancement of knowledge requires this open exchange. To say there is no controversy is to deny the fundamental nature of science itself and set up a secular religion based on one group's theory.

I have heard both sides, and from my scientist's point of view, they both still have a lot of work to do until they prove their hypotheses.

Sorry to disagree with you, but in the case of climatic change there are too many variables that we have not yet examined to start throwing out "laws" to solve problems we don't even know how yet to fully explore.

climate is an example of chaos theory personified. the sun is hitting a warmer patch its producing more energy http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2006/21dec_cycle24.htm

http://www.research.noaa.gov/spotlite/archive/spot_sunclimate.html


, plus we are coming out of a mini ice age, from the middle ages. and eating meat, theres nothing wrong with eating meat. its in some form the best way to make use of otherwise unusuable land..
http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/vegetarian.html
**
The Earth's total land area is 179,941,270 square kilometres (69,479,518 square miles). A little simple mathematics tells us that at present, on average, one square kilometre has to support just over thirty-three people. If all of it were cultivated, that would certainly be possible.

The argument fails, however, because not all of it is available for arable cultivation. The main environmental factors which determine plant development and distribution are climate and soil type. We can discount the whole of the unproductive continent of Antarctica, so that reduces the total by 13,335,740 square kilometres immediately. We can also discount, at least as far as arable farming is concerned, all other ice-covered areas, tundra, mountains, deserts, heath and moor land, areas covered by rivers, salt marshes and lakes, cities, roads, and railways; and to a large extent semi-deserts, savannah, rain forest, low-lying meadow land and areas liable to regular flooding. We have now discounted most of the Earth's surface. In fact, only eleven percent of the land surface is farmed.
***

they cant even say exactly whats going to happen in a weeks time, let alone 100 years.. too many variables. there is controversy, we could have global warming, or there could be the big freeze when the gulfstream stops, or nothing may happen at all.

**Ah, this is where it gets rather contentious because the big warming numbers come not from measurements but from computer models. These computer models and their output are passionately defended by the modeling clique and frequently derided by empiricists -- but the bottom line is that models make an enormous range of assumptions. Whether all the assumptions, tweaks and parameter adjustments really collectively add up to a realistic representation of the atmosphere is open to some conjecture (current climate models do not model "natural" climatic variation very well), but there is no evidence yet that they can predict the future with any greater certainty than a pack of Tarot cards. Moreover, humans do a lot besides emitting greenhouse gases, changing vegetation and transpiration rates through agriculture, for example, and many effects expected to both increase and decrease regional temperatures are not included in these models.

**


http://www.junkscience.com/Greenhouse/

but.. my problem is, the over use of resources that we in the west do use, and globally as well.. disposable nappies take a lot longer to decay than towelin ones.. and so on.. the food usage of these kids, more food eaten, due to more kids, means less resources of the planet to recover.

the world is rapidly going to a point of total collapse, because the world is finding it harder and harder to recover, to regenerate. more people makes it more likely for a collapse to happen, yes we have technology, and yes we are slowing it down, but that means more children, which means more waste of resources, and so on...

*********************************************************************************************************************************
I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

Valkyrie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Knowing this, you can't possibly argue that
> popping out your own kid is anything other than
> selfish and immoral. Yes that's right, breeders.
> You have condemned your children to an uncertain
> and possibly even nightmarish future not just
> because you had them, but because of all of the
> shitty choices you make every day (to drive SUV's,
> eat meat, etc.). And you call US selfish? Go
> fuck yourselves.
>
> Yes, I know that's a cruel thing to say. But is
> it any crueler than condemning an innocent, young
> person to life (and death) in ecological collapse
> just because "I WAAAAAAAAAAAAANT A
> BAAAAAAAAYYYYYBEEEEEE!"

I read how Orthodox Jews cry when a child is born due to the harshness of lif. Yet, Orthodox Judaism promote large families as most conservative religions where the women cover up and stay at home. It is similar to Catholicism where birth control is a no-no and sex is to happen during the most fertile cycle due to the bans on intimacy right after the menstrual cycle because of possible blood leakage.

I also read in today's Orlando Sentinel of this Jacqueline Siegal who married a much-older time share magnate. She has done what she could to keep this guy chained to her - had seven babies...the latest were twins born recently. Gag me...

Mrs. Siegel seems to think she is so "kind" to donate to infertility charities. She says she wants others to be so lucky to have all of those babies. Why isn't the vapid c*nt donating to charities for third worlders who have no access to contraception and where those kids go to bed hungry.

I also am tired of reporters saying how this woman is back in shape and in bikinis within five days of popping out her newborns. It is not that big of a shock for a wealthy socialite wife who does not work to get rid of pregnancy effects on the body. Hired chefs and personal trainers are on the payroll. Let's talk about "real women" for a change who are not part of the Botox Naion.

"FUCK WORK"

Courtney had Kurt knocked off because being Kurt's widow would make her way more money in the long run than simply being the woman he divorced. Courtney is a cold woman.