I just need to work some things out...

Here's a confession--
I have decided to not have children not because I dislike children. Actually, I love children. I have decided not to have children because of my depression, anxiety, and OCD, and don't want to risk passing these painful problems onto my own children. I also know what it was like to have a miserable childhood, and I don't think I could bear seeing another kid go through what I did. All in all, I don't think I'm being selfless here.
But then I had a conversation with my father. I have problems with both of my parents, but I do love them very much, and I want them to be proud of me. My Dad told me that he hoped someday that I had children, because I had made him so happy. He said that he would be so honored to see my children, to see me in them. My dad was so full of love when he said that. I went inside and cried. I have wonderful memories of my father, and here he is, this man who loves me so much, wanting me to have kids because I made him happy (though I know that I had to have been difficult, he MEANT it) and he wanted to watch me grow up again. I feel like if I don't have kids, I'm rejecting him, and our memories, and what we have in common--he loves kids and so do I--and his love.
I feel like shit.

hmmm... all i can say is, he has lived his life, and you have to live yours..

only you can really decide, what you want. if he really loves you, then he should accept your choice and decision.. he helped make you into the person he sees.. he gave you the freedom to choose.

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I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

I agree with Mercurior. He has already had his turn at raising a family. Be glad that you made him happy, but also know that in return there is no guarantee that any children you had would make you happy. Depression and anxiety seem to run in families to some degree and I think you are making a wise and informed decision. Just because it may not be entirely "selfless" doesn't mean it's the wrong decision.

It shouldn't be viewed as a rejection because you have chosen to live your life a different way. He should respect your decision. You need to live your life and do what is best for you, not your parents. I hope you make peace with what is best for you, not anyone else.

I agree with Merc and CFinPDX, of course. You are meant to live your life, not your father's. Your father was filled with love when he said what he said because he loves you. If he wants to watch you "grow up again," then he needs to adopt a kid or volunteer somewhere. That's not your burden to carry.
In the end, I don't think it's wise to label the decision to be childless "selfish" or "less selfless" than having kids. That's not logical. Breathe deeply and look inward and love yourself enough to be yourself.

I am going to say it straight up.

Too many women cave to familial pressure to breed. The parents are whining for a grandchild. The in-laws are vain enough to want that last name continued. The husband does not give a rat's ass about a baby but wants to show his dick works.

The woman is stuck once she has those kids and is often depressed & angry for allowing others to run roughshod over her childfree decision. You do not have to justify WHY you do not want a child. You do not owe your father a grandchild. Period!

I agree with the other posters, it's your life, not his. You are the one who will have to raise any children. There's no guarantee kids will make you happy - I think too many people fall into that way of thinking,especially women.
It's well documented that depression tends to run in families and it sounds to me you can do without the extra stress. That doesn't mean I think you're weak, the exact opposite in fact. It takes an especially strong person to cope.
It's not a rejection of him just cos you've decided not to have kids. It doesn't mean you don't love him, it just means you've made different choices.
Like Am said, you don't owe him a grandchild. You've made a wise decision and it's okay to feel a few pangs. It means you've thought the whole thing through.
He obviously loves you and wants you to be happy, and it sounds like he wouldn't want you to beat yourself up about this.

Dear LTCF,

I doubt if your father was your main caregiver when you grew up. It's lovely that he said what he did, but how often did you hear that when you were growing up?

I've suffered with depression most of my life. My mother suffered from schizophrenia (and when she suffered, so did everyone else in the family). Depression has a genetic predisposition, as well as other mental illnesses. I made a choice not to pass this on to the next generation. It's OK to "adopt" other people's children, tutor, etc.

Do what's best for YOU. You know yourself better than anyone else. And you can always decide to adopt or foster parent down the road. It's your life, live it as you see fit.

Best wishes and hugs!

Despite the fact that I knew very early in my life that I never wanted children, my parents always told me not to have kids because they are a lot of work and they wanted to see me doing more important things with my life. I wasn't offended at all. I knew the difference between their choice and what they were wanting for me.

Live your life to please you and no one else.

Within reason of course!

Wow, I bet that just ripped your heart out as I can tell you really love and admire your father and want him to be happy. However, you also have to be happy in your own life, and I think your dad would agree that he'd rather see you happy than burdened with an unwanted or regretted child.

Resurrecting an older post, but: tell your dad that since you make him so happy, you'll come visit. But children will NOT be you. That would be like me saying "I miss my boyfriend, so I'll call up his brother." Uh...not quite the same.

Annie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dear LTCF,
>
> I doubt if your father was your main caregiver
> when you grew up. It's lovely that he said what
> he did, but how often did you hear that when you
> were growing up?

I think you are right on about the father not being the main caregiver as childrearing is always viewed as "cunt work" even if the mother has a full-time job and more than contributes to the household expenses. Dad comes home from work and sits in his chair with his beer while Mom is to be Super Woman and rush around the house taking care of sprogs & meals after working her 8+ hour shift at the job.

KidFreeLuvnLife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Despite the fact that I knew very early in my life
> that I never wanted children, my parents always
> told me not to have kids because they are a lot of
> work and they wanted to see me doing more
> important things with my life. I wasn't offended
> at all. I knew the difference between their
> choice and what they were wanting for me.

I am fortunate, too, with my family. My mom "had" to get married in 1964...if you know what I mean. My natural father left three years later and never paid the lousy $100 child support ordered by the courts. Mom always made it clear that I did not have to breed. My grandmother is the one who suggested a tubal ligation when I told her that I did not want kids. Grandma also supported my decision saying that this was a horrid world to bring children into and that I did need to have my life ruined by having those babies. She was also a divorced parent. Grandpa was a wonderful dad to my mom and a wonderful grandparent to me but he had so many issues after the Korean War which led to the divorce.

amethusos* Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dad comes home from work and
> sits in his chair with his beer while Mom is to be
> Super Woman and rush around the house taking care
> of sprogs & meals after working her 8+ hour shift
> at the job.


Am, this is sadly very true, even in these supposedly enlightened times. I have seen this exact same scenario played out in friends' households - they don the aprons despite the fact that they've already put in a full day's work while the husbands/boyfriends put the feet up and relax.
I'm sure there are men who do their fair share but I haven't met that many of them. . .

It's interesting what you say about your grandmother - mine died when I was a child but I still remember her advising me (in all seriousness) to never marry and never have children. She knew what she was talking about cos she was widowed at 35 with a large family. To this day I consider it the best advice I've ever been given!!

in the past, the man went out to work, to earn the money for the household, and the woman would be at home taking care of the house, the children if any, and running the entire house.

this never changed since the end of the industrial revolution, men and women and children used to work 14 hours a day, in jobs that you would have no hope of surviving.

its called a division of labour, and it does happen in more households than you can imagine. why shouldnt the man rest after working 8 hours or more a day.. but isnt it her choice to work and to have kids, especially in todays more enlightened times. no one forces her to go to work, she can choose. so can he.

it is also about the type of jobs the man does. hard dangerous jobs are predominantly a male area, and softer less dangerous are generally a female feild.

have you ever seen a female builder or fire fighter, if you have then you will only have seen one or 2..

at least thats the thing here in the north of england, the woman was the BOSS, and the man wasnt.. it was never blatantly advertised unlike today.. many families had a female in charge, my grans both were in total control of their families. and what they said went.. husbands and sons and daughters were effectively slave to the grandma's. there was women "doctors" my great great aunt was one, she was nominally the nurse, but she did a lot of stuff the doctor couldnt do, when he was busy.. thats where i get most of my knowledge about healing.. in other lines, the women used to own the pubs that the male builders built.. because here in summer they would be builders, the women would run the pubs, in winter, they both ran it..

theres care giving, and then there financial care giving.. 2 different things.

the male provided for the household the woman ran the household.. who had the most power.. (thats why so many women killed their husbands.. they had charge of the food..)

and its always been like that.

it was only near the end of the industrial revolution that women were not needed at work, same with children.. however men had to work no one looked out for them..

men went down the mines, for 4000 years, always men, men had no choice and they still dont as they get looked down upon if they try to be something else..

women have many many many more choices than men do..men work till they die.. (the working ones anyway no respite for them..)

*********************************************************************************************************************************
I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

Yes, men work, but most men do not work in dangerous jobs. That said, not all dangerous jobs involve manual labor. In the US one of the more dangerous jobs is convenience store clerk, which is equally populated by men and women. In these positions women are generally at a higher risk of injury, because robbers are more likely to still use force against a woman who is being compliant and handing over the money than a compliant man. I've known plenty of women who pursued "male" carears, so to say they are a rarity is just plain wrong, at least in my area of the world. Also, I believe the proportions of women and men in the workplace as a whole nowdays are about the same.

That said, it IS about division of labor. If you stay at home all day, male or female, and don't earn a living outside the home, then your JOB is to raise the children, keep the house or whatever. If both people work outside the home, then the home chores should be divided however those people see fit. However, I know of SAHDs (stay at home dads) who, the moment wife gets home from her 8-hour bread winning job, hands the kid over to her and runs off for band practi--er beer drin--ahh Adult Time with the boys. I know very few SAHMs who will do this to their male partners. More disturbing to me is that even when both partners work outside the home, the childcare, meal prep, housework is still generally left to the female.

I do not think that either gender has more opportunities than the other, just different ones. Sure, there are SAHM's, there are also SAHD's, but not many of either camp really. Like most men, most women work, and most of us will work until we make enough to retire, or die. It's not like everyone earns enough money to save up for a fantastic retirement, and it's not like a man gets out of high school and is automatically chained to a machine which will eventually remove all his fingers...at least not for the most part nowdays. I'm not quite sure what choices you think a man is missing out on, but it certianly isn't beyond the abilites of any man to A. choose NOT to support someone who doesn't work, B. choose NOT to help make any other people he has to support, or C. choose to NOT work at all and just live in a cabin in the middle of some godforsaken wilderness.

well have you ever seen a female fire fighter, or a female builder.. i did say it was rare if you did.. have you ever seen a female garbage collector, what about sewerage workers. road repairers.. (who has the highest death rate in the UK in that job), the army, most are men.. the navy, the air force.. if women wanted to work those jobs then why arent there more.. (there are some.. but not enough)

what about in the oil industry the heavy work, or airplane makers or car makers, .. mechanics for cars.. theres many more jobs that women are the rarity.. why arent there more women in those jobs.. you cant say its sexism, as you have said some women do well in those areas.. is it because of their choices.. their decision..

have you ever seen a female steeple jack, not everything is sexist.. some of it is about the choices people have made.. why are more bouncers men.. is it because its a dangerous job.. what about body guards.. see theres many more jobs that are potentially dangerous to men, that does not affect women that much as they do not do those jobs..they chose to do a different career path.


(as i always say there are exceptions).

it used to be man work, if he didnt they would be looked down upon as whiners or losers, they couldnt stay at home.. women could they could have a career, they could go back to school.. men were pressured by these women to be the wage earner, and it hasnt changed that much.. walking wallets by the breeder moo's.

breeders pushing men into working 2 or 3 jobs.. so she can live a life of ease.. and theres more.. in your point A if he doesnt support her, she will divorce him and get all his money.. and B well thats why less men are marrying and avoiding women. and C well most men would love to go out to the wilds.. but society pushes men into work work work till they die.

*********************************************************************************************************************************
I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

I mentioned nothing about sexism mostly because I don't think it's as huge a problem as classism nowdays.

But, yes. I've known several female fire fighters, and cops, and welders, and mechanics, and water department workers, and engineers, and well, just about everything except priests and male hustlers...I've also known several male nurses, strippers, hair dressers,crafters and teachers. The gender ratios in most industries aren't 50/50, and alot of it does have to do with how things worked out in the past. Beyond the factory, women were't allowed in such industries until recently, and of course men weren't allowed to participate in "female" jobs until recently as well.

I don't understand your thinking that one gender has NO choice while the other gender is simply awash in life choices. I just don't see it. If a man is more comfortable working in an environment where it's mostly men, then chances are he'll seek out that sort of position. If a man has a drive to be a teacher, nurse or hairdresser, chances are he's going to pursue that position. Conversely, why did my teammate express surprise at how a group of 60 women acts much differently than a group of men? Because she chose to pursue her interests in science and math, spent several years working in the company of almost exclusively men so she could be a physicist.

With that, I'll add here that doing anything nowdays simply because of some nebulus "socital conventions" is kind of a bullshit excuse that only leads to misery in my experience. If you really don't want to be in a meat grinder to make the rest of society happy, then don't go in the meat grinder. Make your own way, be your own person. Unless you're directly hurting another being (person or animal), nowdays you should have the freedom to live your personal life as you see fit, or at least as you can afford it. So what if socety wants us all to marry and have babies? There is no harm in NOT doing that, and if the worse thing that happens to you as a result is you get the stink eye once in a while from people who regret bending over and letting society shove it up them, I believe the problem is THEIRS, not mine.

but theres the perception that any man who wants to work with kids is a pedophile, a hairdresser some people think he is gay.. it happens..

sexism is there, and it does happen, more and more. 2 males age 13 are arrested for butt slap friday.. when the girls do it nothing it done.. men cant tell rude jokes.. but women can tell bobbit jokes.. theres calenders of male strippers but female strippers are out..

its about the choice that people make. if men arent allowed to enter the teaching profession without being looked upon as a sexual predator, then they will go for other jobs that women do not generally want to go for.. men have less choice in everything..

in divorces, in work, (i was once told i wouldnt get a job because i was male as it was an all female office).

but if you read it i do say there are exceptions.. but men do have less choice.. due to societal pressures.

*********************************************************************************************************************************
I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

I can't believe what I'm reading!

Let's use a little LOGIC here, shall we? Women aren't bouncers because most of them aren't big enough. Have you ever actually SEEN a bouncer? They tend to be big, burly dudes who have the ability to pick up a drunk and throw them out on a street, break up a fight, etc. I've never seen a female bouncer. I've also never seen a male bouncer who doesn't look like a linebacker. So let's drop that line of reasoning right there, mmkay?

That said, no one has also brought up the fact that in most households today, both partners HAVE to work to keep the bills paid. Gone are the days when the man alone would make enough to support the household.

And OMG, all those women who dare to get their ass off the couch and being barefoot and pregnant to go out and actually do something with their lives! How dare they!

You can never control other peoples perceptions. To worry about what others think is only worry about something that is beyond your control and that you can't change. Seriously, you don't think people have misperceptions about females either? Short hair = Dyke, attractive = slut, fat = lacking willpower, ambitions away from the family = bitch, single = spinster...any of those ring a bell?

And you don't think women have socital pressures? Lessee...from what I've learned from society, I should have been married with at least a couple kids by now. I should be happy to pick up after my partner, do the dishes and vaccum. I should never have experienced sexual pleasure before marriage. I also should always look my best and never show my age (if over 18). I should always be polite and deferrential. I also always need to shave my legs, visit the salon every 6 weeks, have perfectly manacured nails, be on a diet and wear makeup. Most importantly, according to society right now in my life I must DEMAND A BIG HUGE DIAMOND RING, wear a $1500 dress once, and spend at least $30,000 when I get married.

The problems with law suits and workplace harassment stuff is well...women are expected by society to raise a stink about these things, men aren't...

Short hair = Dyke, attractive = slut, fat = lacking willpower, ambitions away from the family = bitch, single = spinster...any of those ring a bell?

You said it best, Feh. Societal pressures are placed on both sexes.
I thought that went without saying.

actually k12144, i know 2 female bouncers, they are not linebackers, but they are tougher than the men. but they are normal sized, but why arent there more women in the army then.. it is opened up, fire fighters thats opened up..

since women are 51 % of the population, why arent there 51% in those fields..

could it be they chose not to do those jobs..

but more women go for the softer jobs, administration, and the like.. why shouldnt it be 51% women 49% men.. in every field.. why are the admin jobs mostly given to women, are men not "right" for them.. ok men only have one thing, work till you die, support your family. (thats family as in cf family, parent family), if you get a divorce your screwed, you still have to support your family, you get oopsed you have to support it, if men got the children and the woman paid that would be fair.. but its not like that.. courts arent like that they are pro family and pro woman. and to be that way they have to screw the man..

who then has no choice but to work, if he doesnt, he can go in prison, he can lose his right to travel (passport taken away). is that fair.. no its bloody well not. but thats what happens today.

men are treated like scum, treated like we are monsters. we are expected to give our lives to save women and children. why? let them save themselves.. if they want to be treated like men, then dont expect any preferential treatment, men never have had preferential treatment.. unless you count the early deaths.

and now modern business women are dying earlier, due to stress, well welcome to the life of a man. and they complain its hard.. tell us something we dont know.

men have little choice now and especially in the past. women could stay home, have kids, go to college, and have a career.. men.. they were looked down upon if they didnt go to work.. and called losers. hows that for the life of males..

it is about choice more so in these times.. women could work in these jobs.. but they dont want too. so since women dont want it.. men will have to do it..


the man may not be there as a primary care giver, but he did give some care to the mother, and so helped her give care to the child.. its a seconday care giver.. what would have been said if he didnt work.. and so on.. did he actually have a choice of staying with her to watch her grow up.. thats the whole point. he didnt have that choice.. so thats why he is trying to live vicariously though the original poster. because he missed out on it due to his lack of choice..

*********************************************************************************************************************************
I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

"Short hair = Dyke, attractive = slut, fat = lacking willpower, ambitions away from the family = bitch, single = spinster...any of those ring a bell?"

A very loud bell, indeed, I've had all these slung my way over the years (may I add 'no relationship/single=dyke? I'm not, but I've been accused of it). As a woman, especially a CF one, I feel I can't win. Bollocks to 'em, I'll do as I please.

Feh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You can never control other peoples perceptions.
> To worry about what others think is only worry
> about something that is beyond your control and
> that you can't change. Seriously, you don't think
> people have misperceptions about females either?
> Short hair = Dyke, attractive = slut, fat =
> lacking willpower, ambitions away from the family
> = bitch, single = spinster...any of those ring a
> bell?


I have very short hair...shorter than a crew cut...and I have been asked if I was a lesbian. In another thread, I told the stupid woman how I would have no interest in eating her cunt if I was gay...

I've also been labeled a "bitch" for daring not to have those babies. And...I've been told how I should die a horribly painful death for being childfree. Lovely, huh???

> I should
> never have experienced sexual pleasure before
> marriage.

Even in marriage, women are often made to feel badly by religion if they even experience sexual pleasure when legally bound to a man. Before marriage, a woman better not have had more than two partners and had better hide that.

> I also should always look my best and
> never show my age (if over 18).

Ain't that the truth! My mom is a cool woman but she wishes I was still dying my hair instead of being okay with my gray hair at age 43. Her boyfriend also said that my mother wishes I was more girly, meaning wearing cosmetics and being more of a "lady". I had been discussing some "issues" with him.

Years ago, I worked with a woman who was obviously close to or over 60. She made such a big deal how "a lady never tells her age". I wanted to tell this ding-dong to get her head out of the Dark Ages. It was really pitiful for this woman to think she still had to compete with 18/year-olds.

In my own opinion I consider that if us women want equality then that means doing the dirty jobs and the hard jobs just the same as the men do. ie the Fire Service, Mining, road workers for instance.

In the past women were the mainstay of the cotton mills and some children started work ated 8 or 9 years of age to go under the machinery where it was too dangerous for adults. The overseers where men .

Women also worked down the mines, worked in munition factories, what has changed is fundamentally that there is a sector of women who see their role in being decorative but yet getting paid as much as a male, being allowed time out for birthing children(paid) then dumping their work on others during school holidays (12 weeks a year on average), not forgetting school events during the working day and school plays.

They simply want the equal pay in selective jobs not overall jobs.

They simply cannot have it all ways. There is a point when other people will rebel.

I wonder why someone considers woman cannot be bouncers, I cannot see any problem, in fact some of the most aggressive, strong women would be ideally suited to it. I have met some women who I couldn't upset in those circumstance. Women can do any job a man can do very very very very few exceptions of which I cannot think of any right now. Women aren't allowed to do bouncer jobs in your opinion of of their different shape and size to men. That is pure nonsense.

If you consider there are jobs that women cannot do there must also be jobs that only men can do this is not equality.