Reinstating the draft...lets discuss!

I'd heard a bunch of talk last week about reinstating the draft for a wide variety of reasons. I, and most people I know, are too old, too gay, too unhealthy or too female to worry about being drafted. I figure it is appropriate to discuss here as it involves an age group that many in the social service sector consider "youth" (basically anyone under 24).

I am pretty much pro-draft, though I think it would end up being a miserable failure. However, it would do a lot to get some of the more apathetic groups of people fired up about or against the war, which I do think is a good thing.

I believe the United States is doing this current group of young people a disservice in not having some sort of compulsory service program, mostly because compulsory Anything is pretty much nonexistent for a lot of today's kids. I do think it would have to be a compulsory service draft, however, as opposed to a military draft. As a (often angry) pacifist, I could imagine nothing worse than forced military service.
If a military draft is reinstated, the gubment would HAVE to allow gays in the military. Not allowing gays just affords an "easy out" to avoid service, or force draft boards into the uncomfortable position of demanding "proof" of gayness.

I think any sort of a draft would be an abysmal failure due to the current trend of "helocopter" parents. I could just imagine the complaints and excuses parents would put forth to draft boards. The whining would drown out all other sound, I am sure. And woe be unto the hapless drill sergent the first time little Crapford and Shitleinah write home about boot camp, having to sleep on the ground, or having to get up after 3 hours of sleep.

i can see the benefits, but i can also see the dangers.

i say if people want the draft, they should allow everyone a chance, male and female. thats equality. why are men expected to go and possibly die, and women stay home.

the other thing is young men of today are disenfranchised with society, so your going to send angry young men, to be trained to be killers, to be trained how to be stronger and faster and more deadly. what happens afterwards when there isnt a job there, and they get upset about being considered as wallets.

you will have young men who will kill without conscience. going out commiting crimes, but they will be better at it.

thats the dangers..the uk does allow gays in the army, and women, but for some reason women dont want to join. same with gay people..

so i can see how it would give these men a sense of community, but i think the dangers outweight the benefits..


i am a pacifist too, i dont like to fight, i prefer to use words, but i agree sometimes war is needed but only as a last resort. so i am a more rational pacifist

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I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

I think there does need to be compulsory service, for both women and men. No excuses would be allowed for disability, pacifism, being gay or anything else. If you truly cannot service in a war zone then you can stay back here in the States and do support duty. The only waiver would be for severe mental retardation. Yes even parents would have to serve.

I would refuse to spend my years doing something I did not want to do regardless of my support for any war or issue. I see Merc's and Feh's point but most people know of the disaster of the draft during Vietnam. Nobody wants to feel that they are forced to be cannon fodder for the state regardless of their political beliefs. If we expect this generation of young adults to be forced into military service, we should then be willing to go as well. Just my opinion...

I've always been in favor of what many countries around the world have for ours, and that is a mandatory 2 years of service right after High School. Far too many of my generation have a severe lack of Patriotism. They pine for what they consider the greener grasses of Europe and sing it's praises, even though they're experience with the continent at most is a week long vacation in a very tourist laden area. They promote their distant ancestry over their place of birth, answering the question of "What are you?" with some ridiculous "I'm trying to be unique!" answer of "Well I'm half Irish and a quarter French and a sixteenth...". When I proudly respond to that question with "I'm American", I get the same looks some people give me when I say "I'm Childfree". Those confused gawks shouldn't be a part of our lives for either of those choices, but you wouldn't expect one from a fellow Childfree person. To get one from a fellow American in denial of their nationality is deplorable.

So, that would be Reason number 1 for 2 years mandatory service. To instill Patriotism. Reason number 2 would be to instill a hard work ethic into these new adults. One thing the military will have you do no matter if you're on the front lines in a warzone or just serving peas in the mess hall is make sure you're giving 110%. It would undoubtedly improve our economy, as we'll be sending more disciplined, better motivated employees out into the workforce than we have today. You would rarely see the person come in late to work, hungover from partying all night, dragging down the team. This sense of teamwork the military will build will stay with the populace for the duration of their working years.

The details of my version of this idea are still being worked out, but the basis would be 2 months after graduating High School, you start your mandatory 2 year term of service. Of course, not everyone is equipped to be on the front lines, M-16 in hand. Well before you ship out to wherever you will be posted (Foreign or domestic depending on a number of factors), you will evaluate with a special recruiter/counselor what your best skills and talents are, what you'll be best at. The military will do their best to accomodate these things, but rest assured no one would be able to be put in a position that allows for loafing. Your initial service date can be deferred once by up to a year in extenuating circumstances, and the disabled will be used in a different capacity than those able bodied and healthy.

After your two year mandatory service period has commenced, you have the option of continuing your service and making a career out of it, going into college, getting a job, whatever you wish.

In a perfect America.

I do not express any opinion on the draft, and I am from the generation that saw the last vestiges of it after the Vietnam war. I remember boys from our street getting drafted and going for their induction or physicals, and I remember some of them going to Vietnam. Most of them did their duty in the states and went to school on the GI bill after their two-year stint was done. Only a few of them ever stayed in for any length of time.

A two-year post-high school period of public service would not hurt any of these spoiled brats. It might even help them gain needed perspective on how they are not the center of the universe and knock some small amount of common sense into them. Whether it is military service or some kind of civilian corps that does public projects, the time would serve them well. I volunteered at the hospital for two years during my Junior and Senior years in high school so I could get the recommendations for nursing school. It certainly changed my perspective and taught me the value of preventative health care and service to others.

Most of the high schools brats today would not lift a finger to help another in need. Put the worthless little fuckers to work and change their perspectives.

While I am not for the idea of compulsory military service, I am not against something like Peace Corps. Maybe that would be an attractive option in addition to the Armed Forces (if hypothetically, U.S. youths had to serve in something). I would rather help rebuild homes, provide clean drinking water, etc. than have to kill anyone.

after the 2nd world war, when they "draft" ended here, we had teddy boys, men trained with knives and how to kill, the crime rate soared. they were thugs, but they dressed nice..

the real problem when you come up with young men, who are thought of being scum, by society, and pushed out of life. just because they were drafted.

as one poster said about vietnam, the veterans were promised land and respect, then look what happened. they were spat upon and quite a few became addicted to the drugs used over there. and they left these heroes, rot.

you have to be careful about who you teach and how you teach. i am simplifying things. but even here in the UK we heard the treatment of these people who's crime was patriotism.

its a very grey area, it can have a lot of benefits, but just as many drawbacks.

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I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

Oh gosh, we don't need to actually train our mass murderers here, they seem to figure it out just fine on their own. As far as I know the Columbine and Va. Tech fellows had no military background whatsoever.
Then you think about all those folks in gangs, doing drive by shootings and whatnot, most of them had never been officially trained. Military serivce or not has little to do with mass killing rates any more.

In my senario, the draft would be little more than a couple years of compulsory public service. Yes, the military would be an option, but there would also be options for social service as well, public works projects and the like. It would be for people of all genders, mental and physical abilities and sexual orientations. Basically, one would have to be criminally insane, or competely incapacitated to get out of it. Anyone between the ages of 18 and 24 would have to participate. Why not us old folks? Becuase we already have lives that most of us couldn't put aside for two years. People would not be FORCED to do things they morally object to, like killing. They would, however, have to provide some sort of useful service to the community.

As far as I can tell, young folks don't HAVE to do anything any more. To be a part of something that is bigger than yourself, providing a positive benefit to the country as a whole and doing some work can do alot to teach young people what it means to live in a community and work with other people. It's not really about patriotism, but more about responsibility and knowing that work can have meaning. That the world doesn't revolve around you and sometimes everything won't go your way.

The disaster of the Vietnam draft is pretty much the same as the disaster of today's military. The poor folks never get out of it, while the rich can just keep getting deferred, or shuffeled into non-combat positions.

yes but imagine those gangs, being trained.. to kill, becoming more dangerous,

untrained killers do so much... but if they are trained.

thats the real danger..

but if it was a volunteer service, for those who dont want to go and learn to fight, in other fields.. then that would be better. i thought you meant the draft..as in military service.

*********************************************************************************************************************************
I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

I would agree to something like Peace Corps, but I would never give one iota of my energy to a war I don't believe in or killing innocent people. Not even serving peas in the mess. Bad enough I don't have a choice about my tax dollars going to bombs instead of feeding starving people.

Call me a spoiled brat, call me unpatriotic, call me unAmerican, but I just WOULD NOT do it.

K12144 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Call me a spoiled brat, call me unpatriotic, call
> me unAmerican, but I just WOULD NOT do it.

I hear you, Kat. I am very patriotic but I feel that having to throw away part of my life for a draft is very unacceptable. The military will not get better by forcing people to join. It is the same as those who take jobs they hate and purposely do badly. I pay my taxes. I do not owe my country my body and mind for a certain amount of time in the service.

Pro-lifers are known to say how abortion weakens the military. Great...these idiots want women to birth those babies so they can grow up and risk their lives in the armed services. It is totally different when a person truly wants to be in the military and makes a conscious decision to do so.

it didnt exactly work last time that the youngsters having finished national service, were better behaved, just look at british teddy boys. in the 1950's.

they had done national service, even the mods and rockers had also done national service and they were violent.

all they did after national service was to join a gang as they were used to bring in gangs.

even hells angels in america started off as groups of ex service men. so while it could be a good thing, you have to say the negatives as well

I know too many military people to believe that just having the training or going into combat automatically turns you into a psychotic killer. Post-traumatic stress disorder is not uncommon around combat veterans, but no case is the same and condemning every veteran for serving their country in time of war just seems silly to me. Just as the conduct of children reflects the conduct of their breeders, so does the conduct of combat veterans reflect the conduct of our leaders. It is at the feet of the politicians who foment these awful moments of history that we should place these problems.

i am not saying there arent some good reasons for the draft, or national service. but you have to be aware of the potential problems.

no one can say its all going to work out fine.. there will be more violence from a minority of people, who cause more damage to society, than the benefits.

to deny that bad stuff can happen is to be blind willfully blind.

denis nillsen, a serial killer in the uk, he was in the army trained as a cook, and a butcher and he used it on people. charles whitman, the texas tower killer he was in the army and he killed a lot of people, would you want to take the chance that there is another whitman, another nilsen. there will be some malcontents i am sure you agree with that.

but when men are disenfranchised, told we are worthless, that only men should die, that even i we come back from a law that forces you to join the army, there wont be any men who wont use their new found skills to steal, to kill,

this will always happen. a MINORITY, will create more chaos and havoc..

so is it a good thing.. possibly. is it a bad thing possibly as well.. but to deny the bad that could happen.. well..

ok dr dan, what about the military people you dont see, how many of those are brutal, wife beaters, abusers, and potential serial killers.

but these people are trained to kill and to be good at it. the danger is there.


a site about the british teddy boys

http://www.nervous.co.uk/ted.htm


" Suddenly, there was a generation of kids leaving school who had money to spend, and because of National Service (two years in the Army from 18 - 20), they saw no purpose in taking on poorly paid apprenticeships when they would learn a trade in the Army anyway. These kids were well educated, had money to spend, and they took on the new clothing style and cranked it up a level, with velvet trimmings on the jacket collars, cuffs and pockets, shiny 'horseshoe' style waistcoats, and ever narrower drainpipe trousers. Coupled with the crêpe soled shoe which had become popular during the blackout, the archetypal 'Teddy Boy' (so named after the 'Edwardian' style) emerged to scandalise society. The kids were out of control, and worse still, even a two year stint in the Army didn't make a lot of them settle down, and they became the image of villainy and thuggery in a society which regarded them as totally 'beyond the pale'.


http://www.rockabilly.nl/general/teddyboys.htm

They formed gangs who sometimes had a common uniform like a particular colour of jacket or socks. For the most part, violence and vandalism was not too serious by modern standards, and exaggerated by the media, but there were instances of serious gang warfare with razors and knives. Some Teddyboys had fascist tendencies and were involved with gangs of youths that attacked the West Indians that emigrated to Britain in the mid Fifties.

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I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

The oldest adage about clinical and health outcomes research is "the plural of 'anecdote' is not 'evidence'". We all know or have heard of cases where ex-military have been involved in crimes ranging from shoplifting to mass murder, but until there is a positive causal linkage made from properly constructed research studies, those cases remain in the realm of anecdote and story. As a physician, I cannot base judgments on health care policy and practice based on a whim, and I would need solid evidence to make such a leap.

The only possible hypothesis, and this is untested at best, would be the existence of mental disease prior to enlistment or conscription in the service based on the known association and concordance of prior mental disease history in a first-degree family member or pre-existing mental disorder eventually leading to antisocial behavior. Based on the precepts of medicine and health sciences, that is all the conclusion that I can draw as a practitioner and user of such information.

Draw whatever conclusions you wish based on your own experience, but your experience is just that--your own personal view. Personally, I have never observed that ex-military are any more prone to being substance abusers, spousal abusers or more violent than the general population. In my personal opinion, the military has given many people more purpose and direction in their lives than they had in their past. In general, and I qualify that this is my PERSONAL viewpoint, there is no more tendency to become violent as a result of having served in the military than not.

The military is not perfect by any means, but to make the leap that all ex-military are timebombs just ticking away is patently absurd until proven in rigorously constructed and conducted research studies. I would forsake my heritage professionally and personally if I did not require positive evidence.

in my experience, having seen and known a lot of ex military, i have seen more violence in them, than in an every day person..

some people are attracted to violence, and the army is a perfect place to use that aggression, but when they are trained to be even better killers..

thats when you have to be wary.

i didnt say all ex military were, just, a few more than in the general population. theres stories about criminals getting a choice prison or army. and these can be monsters.. absence of proof is not proof of absence.

*********************************************************************************************************************************
I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

Mercurior:

Your observation is non-sequitur. Either there is evidence to support an argument or there is not. A lack of evidence is just that: a lack of aggravating or mitigating evidence to the point in question.

Health sciences research follows a very rigorous standard of proof and statistical analysis to reach a conclusion. We don't have the luxury of dealing in cliche, idiom or proverb. We require proof at a higher level because of the potential impact on the lives of humans. That's a tough standard and won't move any time in the near future.

This is history repeating itself. and it did nothing but cause a lot of disgruntled young people who when they were forced to serve learnt how to become tougher and more violent towards the authorities.

The same happened in WW2, why do you think that prisoners from the USA jails were recruited to go in and cause havoc and destruction, and become killing machines in the name of the good old U S of A, because it was that kind of ballgame. People who were not violent when they entered the services came out violent and found it very difficult to return to normal behaviour in civilian life.

In today's world it is even more worse in that the ONLY GROUP to be drafted are young men (how come women are not if they want equality)
and once the Draft has concluded they will still be in the same situation of no correct form of Role Models that all young people need.

Because they will no doubt to my mind become disaffected with society, they will cause more problems in civvy street.

We already in this world have too much violence and all the Draft does is to teach them more and more ways of becoming violent and for it to be looked on as acceptable.

I presume Dr Dan is American, does he not remember or has he not been taught about the numbers of Draft Dodgers there were in recent past, of young men avoiding conscription at any cost.

i just know quite a few ex army types, who were nuts going into the army, and coming out they were dangerous nuts.

i know there are more dangers than people beleive, because they are blind to the possible negatives, they dont like to see the bad side of ideas.

imagine you are a 21 year old male, and you get sent to join the army/navy/airforce or whatever.. you are 21, you dont have much of a future, your looking for a job, but you keep getting knocked back, and you get annoyed, you get angry at society, then you go to be trained to be a killer, to be trained how to use automatic weapons and to kill.. with those weapons, to become the peak of physical condition. then after your 2 years or whatever is over, you leave, (and you cant leave earlier because they would only allow sick people to leave), so your there, you still cant find a job, and society tells you are shit you are worthless.. and that you are a tool of the patriarchy. etc etc etc..

then you try to get a job, and you cant because there are thousands of people in the same boat as you.. chances are you will fail.. then you will get pissed off.. noe before you probably would drink get angry and fight, but incompetently, but since you have learned combat, well you can kill a man.

now.. this may seem like a worse case, or you may think i have my head in the clouds. but i have seen something similar happen to someone i knew. the national service, it happened then, vietnam it happened then, in every country that had national service or the draft, there has been an increase in violence.

men are disenfranchised NOW, imagine again if they go on national service or the draft, and end up fighting in a unpopular war. then they come home, how do you think people will act.. ask the vietnam vets how it was. ask the soldiers. how they were treated, some were spat upon, for being forced into a bad "police action". and some were attacked.. these are the men and some women who fought and died for america. dont you think it wont happen again.

the draft is a damned foolish idea, the negatives outweight the positives. and i do say there are positives or can be.

is it the solution, no of course not.

and you mention statistics. i can use statistics, to prove anything, and so can anyone else. look at the studies about oh everything they do data dredging, no actual proof. thats why its called lies, damn lies and statistics.. health sciences, are not infallible, and they have made a lot of errors. mistaking causation with correlation

there will be more violence if they introduce the draft.. i will guarentee it..

*********************************************************************************************************************************
I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

I'd say here that America is a much, much different place than any European country. Your experiences and reactions to compulsory service may indeed be vastly different from compulsory service here in the U.S. And well, we ALL can have guns here and a large portion of us are crazed from constant fear mongering.

The problem isn't so much in that military service makes people crazy, or crazy people are attracted to military service so much as there are NO SERVICES available to people who develop mental health issues as a reaction to or result of military service. Hell, in the general population there are few services for people who have mental health issues. The VA system is broken, and most vets I know will do anything to keep from having to deal with the VA, unless it's their last resort.

Did I say "my draft" was only for men, or only for military services? No, because I know a purely military draft wouldn't work in the US. Too many people have too much information on how to get out of a military draft for it to be an effective tool for improving (or protecting) the country. One of the main reasons for prison uprisings, and the prisoners rights movement of the 60's and 70's, was that the government threw educated, draft dodging, pacifists in jail where they used their knowledge and passion to educate prisoners on their rights. Trust me when I say they will never, ever make that mistake again.

And well, we already have a draft in the US. It's called a poverty draft. It's what happens when the only perceived opportunity is offered by the military recruiter who shows up at your high school job fair with his snappy uniform and shiny new Hummer. It's what happens when you are a 17 year old kid whose only job options are farming, fast food, retail or maybe (if you're lucky) one of the few remaining factory jobs left. It's what happens when you get in a little bit of trouble and the military recruiter says "hey, serve a couple years with us and you won't have to go to jail". It's what happens when the military recruiter says "hey, this is your only chance to get out of this shit hole, even for a little while". However, this fact should make some of you happy...it's open to boys AND girls.

yes i agree, but it will predominantly be for males, i would be good in certain sections of the army, but there are certain levels of health needed (i fail miserably), but if its shuffling paper, then i am your man, i love a good shuffle of paper..

but thats the problem. everyone in the army has to be taught to kill, i am a pacifist, but i am a realistic one, i know wars happen, and people die and people kill, but i dont see it as the first resort.

i have seen too many men leave the army due to cuts in military spending, and to be left doing nothing, some managed to join the police, or security but a lot of the younger ones.. are out of luck.. they have no marketable skills, they may known how to strip a m16, but what use s that in civvy street.

i think a lot of countries including the uk, are too fond of sending people to be killed, without using other things first like diplomacy, like sanctions, and so on..

yes i know veterans who are ill, due to the sights they saw, and my heart bleeds for them, they should be celebrated.

we have a strong sense of community here on november 11th, we the nation has 2 minute silence every year, for all our war dead. i lost family in the 2nd world war, thousands of young men, sacrificing their lives to preserve the uk way of life. yes some came back disturbed, some came back with more violence in their hearts. i still feel a kind of respect for them, but i know that the national service/draft can be bad news, or it can do some good.

should we have it.. possibly, but only if everyone men and women are allowed to fight..

*********************************************************************************************************************************
I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

I served a tour in the Air Force (police officer) and carried an M-16. I went to machine gun school and was an expert with a grenade launcher. It's pretty funny to think about it now, because I'm a peace-loving person ...
I agree with DrDan here, I don't think military service is going to make people go batty, but forcing it on them might. I am against a compulsory draft because I don't think it will teach these brats a whole lot.
If the parents were doing their "jobs," brats would know the value of compassion and kindness and a job well done.

exactly nour..it would make the ones who were nearly nuts, turn them into really nuts.. but thats the problem

*********************************************************************************************************************************
I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

On a similar note, SO's son is going into the military in a few months. Keep in mind, this is a kid who quits everything he's "sick of" or pisses him off, he gets bored with, doesn't like, or being around people he doesn't like.

Do I see a rude awakening in the near future?