Hello baby, goodbye friends: How having children tests friendships

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/you/article.html?in_article_id=509125&in_page_id=1908


Here's my answer (enev though my answers rarely get published). I like to make my voice heard:

"Don't wince or make 'yuck' noises if a nappy has to be changed or something gets spilt."
Even if they do it on the dinner table at a restaurant? I ditch friends who become parents, because they become an empty shell of the former cool person they once were. They become placenta brained and can't talk about anything non-baby related. They are just boring and not worth the effort, because they are entitlement-minded and expect us to curb our life around theirs. They have accomplished nothing special, but feel us cf should make a shrine to their capacity to sprog and their bratlina or snotleigh. Anyone can have unprotected sex. Animals do it.

This seems to be pretty common.

I have two buddies who I used to do stuff with all the time - ride dirt bikes, mess around with cars; just hang out and bullshit. These are two guys who I've been friends with since college; we all live within 5 miles of one another - but ever since these two began breeding, we stopped getting together/doing things. Or even talking on the phone. I now see them once every few months; we rarely, if ever actually do anything. My wife got the cold shoulder from their wives - maybe because she isn't tied down by screaming babies - so that adds to the "distance" and awkwardness between us.

I don't get it. Something has changed, culturally. When I was a kid in the '70s/'80s, my parents had lives; they spent time with their friends, had their own interests - etc.

Everything did not revolve around us kids. I can remember like yesteray that when company came over, we were expected to shut up and go find something to do - and leave the adults alone unless they called for us.

Now, in contrast, the kids dominate everything. When we do see our friends with kids, the kids are the Center of Everything. Not just the conversation - but physically. They demand to be noticed; shriek their wants, interrupt/monopolize the conversation. It is exhausting - and makes you want to Flee as soon as you arrive.

We're down to a much smaller circle - but at least it's "quality." And we have a good marriage and actually like spending time together, so the absence of a shrieking kid and constant diversions such as soccer practice and endless other Events does not seem to us a "missing piece of life" in the slightest!

Anotjer perk: We're not broke. Our fruit-laden friends all are...

Oh that's an easy equation:

1 Friend + Breed = Minus 1 Friend

As soon as a friend has announced it's repugnancy, it gets scratched right off the "Friend" list, and it's number gets taken out of my cell speed dial. Friend will stay on our holiday card list only long enough to see if said Friend returns the favor of a card, just that 1 time a year when everyone, no matter how harried, can take a moment to say hello to all those people you no longer have time for because you have a famblee now.

I made the mistake years ago of trying to give breeding friend the benefit of the doubt only to be shit on, ignored, and bored to death with talk of placenta brain nonsense.

I already posted this on the TMC thread but her goes it again because this is so true...

Dittos here on that one. My cousin used to be the coolest. We have the same birthdays and are one year apart. She is my late-stepdad's niece but she was always family to me. After the first kid, it was hard to talk to her on the phone. Once she birthed the second baby, calling was really a fool's game as I was constantly told to "hold on" while she would yell at the older daughter to just let the younger sister have the toy and not fight over it. Whatever happened to teaching the younger siblings that they cannot run roughshod and get what the fuck they want because they are "little".

I got a New Year's card from her since she did not send out X-mas greetings. The girls are 10 or 11 and 8. My cousin did the photo card which is nice but would have been better if her and her husband were on it. Cousin states how the girls just keep her so busy with all of their activities. Do kids always have to be involved in every fucking thing??? What about a mom taking time for herself??? That is HER fault for "busying" herself up with only stuff for her children. The lady does not work but still has no time for herself. I see that with a lot of SAHMs. It IS hard to remain friends with these women after a time. Why bother?

I still would not try to call her as the fighting probably still goes on. I am certain the younger one is VERY spoiled. At 8, she is the "beauty" while her older sis is plainer. I can see how the older child is probably still told to just give in to her younger sister. My mom's coming to visit in April. I got an e-mail from Cousin saying my mother BETTER call when she is out. I want to say, "Chi-ull, you live like FIVE hours away. You think I am going to drive all the way down for a lunch thing where the kids will still come before anything else???" Oh no...I already told my mother that I ain't goin' to South Florida to visit...

Sorry for the bold but it still frosts my ass...:scr

KidFreeLuvnLife Wrote:
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> Oh that's an easy equation:
>
> 1 Friend + Breed = Minus 1 Friend
>
> As soon as a friend has announced it's repugnancy,
> it gets scratched right off the "Friend" list, and
> it's number gets taken out of my cell speed dial.
> Friend will stay on our holiday card list only
> long enough to see if said Friend returns the
> favor of a card, just that 1 time a year when
> everyone, no matter how harried, can take a moment
> to say hello to all those people you no longer
> have time for because you have a famblee now.

Mmm-hmmm! I have also deep-sixed breeder friends and family when a card was not returned. My cousin did get back on the "list" as she sent a New Year's card last week. Sort of late in the game but better late than never...I guess. I think my mom also told her to send one out. Still, it sucks. My life is busy even though I am not working at the moment but I make time for those I care about. Hell, I would be happy with an e-card and that only takes a moment to send out since there is no envelope, stamp, or walk to the mailbox.

Oh I just love the "picture Christmas cards" that are all sprogs and no parents. We don't even know these children. Why do they think we care?

And the letters to go with the cards! "Let me tell you about my kids..."

Please, don't.

I think it’s simple why “having children tests relationships.” Parents don’t want to hang out with people who don’t have kids largely because the CF friend reminds them of their lives before children. A lot of parents realize that having the kiddies really isn’t that special, and now they can’t stand to be around the CF person. It’s just too depressing for them, and they are feeling jealous (they'd never verbalize it). Better to hang out with other parents and try to forget your misery.

Breeders don't seem to realize that friendship is a two way street. Instead, we're the bad ones because we don't call to check on them all the time, invite them to things that they will then decline at the last minute, listen to their constant child stories with rapt attention, hang out with them to watch what great parents they are, eat fish stick dinner with the family. There are no bigger martyrs on the planet than breeders.

And the "advice"? What a crock of bull...
Advice to parents
• Just because your friend doesn't have children, you shouldn't assume they can always drop everything to meet you at the last minute. They still have a life.
Don't cancel at the last minute EVERY SINGLE TIME you have plans with them. Don't bring the kids along if you two have plans together.
Be an adult, do adult things with other adults once in a while, it will make you a better person and parent.

• And don't assume that your friend has no idea about children. Asking her advice about, say, if a particular movie is suitable for your child will make her feel involved.
Don't assume all they want to talk about is your children. In fact, don't assume that she wants to feel involved in your children's life. If she wanted to be involved in a child's life, don't you think she'd show some interest?

• Do not point out to child-free friends that they are 'missing out on the greatest experience a woman can ever have'. Even if you feel this way.
LSD can also be the greatest experience a woman can ever have, so don't get offended when your friend brings this up in response to your stupid comments about how great parenting is.

• Is it essential to ask, 'Has she got any children?' every time a new name comes up? This tells your friend that being a mother is the defining characteristic of a woman.
Of course, you're a breeder so you think that is the defining characteristic, and it's all you care about. Don't be offended when your friend says "Is that any of your business? Why do you even care?" and decides to go on with their life without you.

• Make sure she realises that though you have family responsibilities now, she (and what's happening in her life) is also very important to you.
Yes, childfree people are easily pandered to, and can't see through that in a minute. Pretend you care about what they say once in a while, and they'll continue to listen to your blather out of politeness.

Advice to non-parents
• When overnighting with friends with children don't lie in till ten, then turn all moody when your two-hour leisurely breakfast plan is spoiled.
When you've planned a leisurely breakfast, only to have the uncontrolled hellspawn ruin it, leave...seriously, just leave. Go to a hotel, sleep in the car, go back home...anything. The children run this house and there is no place for anyone else.

• Appreciate that parents have made a huge effort just to be there at all on an evening out. Try to understand then if they can only talk in monosyllables.
Close your eyes and think of England. It'll all be over soon, hopefully. There's no way on earth you'd rather be doing something else, is there? After all, they've bred, are better than you and every inane utterance should be like golden drops of happiness.

• Never criticise their parenting skills, no matter how clear it is that they are driving down a one-way street to delinquency. A friend should only ever tell them how wonderful they're being.
Yes, tongue wash their dumpers for the shitty job they're doing. Lies make friendships REAL and fulfilling. "You've given your 5 year old a credit card?! Good for you! You're the smartest person EVER!"

• Don't wince or make 'yuck' noises if a nappy has to be changed or something gets spilt.
Baby shit is as harmless as warm chocolate! Everyone should try some! Seriously, you're lucky if you ONLY get a "yuck"...next time Ms. Breederson changes a diaper in a restaurant, would she be happy to find me shitting on the table? It's natural, contained and I promise not to get any on HER plate.

• Many childless people assume that children are incapable of communication. It is very frustrating when the child tries to engage in conversation and the non-parent adult ignores the comment.
Don't ignore the sprogs!! It makes them feel BAAAAD. They're SPAYSHUL, remember? Of course you don't remember, you didn't have children and as a result are a mouth breathing hate filled monster who just ignores the beautiful gems of wisdom that children add to every conversation. Children are NEVER to be ignored.

"It truly is the one commonality that every designation of humans you can think of has, there's at least one asshole."
--Me

I hated this piece of advice:
•Many childless people assume that children are incapable of communication. It is very frustrating when the child tries to engage in conversation and the non-parent adult ignores the comment.

And Feh responded with:
Don't ignore the sprogs!! It makes them feel BAAAAD. They're SPAYSHUL, remember? Of course you don't remember, you didn't have children and as a result are a mouth breathing hate filled monster who just ignores the beautiful gems of wisdom that children add to every conversation. Children are NEVER to be ignored.**

Parents have got it all wrong like the breeder who obviously came up with this BS advice. Parents assume that non-parents ignore children in a conversation when it fact the opposite is true more often than not. I've witnessed breeders who don't really listen to their kids or other's children, but only pretend to, especially to show others how much they looove the chylldren. It has been my experience that many CF people actually listen to children who try to converse and treat them as real people more than their parents do.

Frack it, that "advice to pah-runts" (and non) is so ridiculous! Yay Feh for your comments. Like we're supposed to kiss their bums because they're breeders, and be available 24/7, and not care if they take us for granted and/or ignore us? Bullshit!

I broke up with my best friend of 20 years because she had an "oops" - so I know what I'm talking about. It's been over 3 years since I last spoke to her and I'm still pissed off about it.

Feh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Breeders don't seem to realize that friendship is
> a two way street. Instead, we're the bad ones
> because we don't call to check on them all the
> time, invite them to things that they will then
> decline at the last minute, listen to their
> constant child stories with rapt attention, hang
> out with them to watch what great parents they
> are, eat fish stick dinner with the family.
> There are no bigger martyrs on the planet than
> breeders.

One woman with kids wondered why I was not going to meet her for coffee after she was way late one day. She did not show up with her kids as they were in school but brought along another friend who monopolized the conversation. I felt my time was not valued due to the lady being late and calling stating this was the case because another friend asked to be taken somewhere at the last minute. Like my cousin, her kids relentless activities take time. She also surrounds herself with 'friends' who use her for rides to places and so forth. I do not have time for that. If I were to schedule to meet her for coffee and the same happened a second time, I would be to blame for that one as it is..."Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."


> Advice to parents
> • Just because your friend doesn't have children,
> you shouldn't assume they can always drop
> everything to meet you at the last minute. They
> still have a life.

Exactly! I have things I have to do just because I did not birth those babies. Lurking breeders, see above...:cool


> • Do not point out to child-free friends that they
> are 'missing out on the greatest experience a
> woman can ever have'. Even if you feel this way.
> LSD can also be the greatest experience a woman
> can ever have, so don't get offended when your
> friend brings this up in response to your stupid
> comments about how great parenting is.

Notice men do not tell each other how parenting is the greatest experience a man :smoke can ever have. Many guys try to avoid what they feel is a trap of marriage and parenthood...or they think fatherhood is 'neat' since the wife does all of the care taking.

> Advice to non-parents
> • When overnighting with friends with children
> don't lie in till ten, then turn all moody when
> your two-hour leisurely breakfast plan is
> spoiled.
> When you've planned a leisurely breakfast, only to
> have the uncontrolled hellspawn ruin it,
> leave...seriously, just leave. Go to a hotel,
> sleep in the car, go back home...anything. The
> children run this house and there is no place for
> anyone else.

Ain't that the fucking truth! I learned that one when I was 16 and had to go with my mom to her friend's house in Lake Tahoe during the high school spring break. Mom's friend/former co-worker had a two-year-old who DID indeed run the house. Moo had to beg her tiny tot to go to bed at night while all of the guests staying there just stayed up during this whole :bawl tantrum. In the early a.m., we were treated to this tyke waking our asses up. I had a resentment against my mother because she felt that I must entertain, cater to, and help with the cunt work of taking care of this she-hellion as "payment" for J*y's 'hospitality' for letting us stay in her house during the ski trip. Honestly, I would have rather stayed home and NOT have gone skiing...

> • Many childless people assume that children are
> incapable of communication. It is very frustrating
> when the child tries to engage in conversation and
> the non-parent adult ignores the comment.
> Don't ignore the sprogs!! It makes them feel
> BAAAAD. They're SPAYSHUL, remember? Of course
> you don't remember, you didn't have children and
> as a result are a mouth breathing hate filled
> monster who just ignores the beautiful gems of
> wisdom that children add to every conversation.
> Children are NEVER to be ignored.

Oh gods...I had that experience as well with a friend who had her daughter, a single moo, and toadler grandson with her when I was invited to lunch at her house. The little boy just screeched at the top of his lungs. Grandmoo thought it so nice how J**mis had such great lungs. I, on the other hand, went to work that evening with a massive headache...

Great list, Feh. Anyone with breeder friends should read this and ask themselves if it is worth it to deal with these people. I do have friends who have kids but they are responsible parents and we do go out to lunch or coffee and talk of things other than their children. Yes, it can be done.

Feh's first paragraph in her post sums up breeders as "friends" perfectly.

Breeders suck at being friends which is why I do not care to have any.

The thing I'd really like to understand is why so many people with kids turn the kids into the Focus of Everything... maybe it's just me/my experiences/generation - but this business of involving the kids in everything (for example, when you go over to the house of a couple with kids, the kids - not babies, older kids who can be left to occupy themselves - are allowed to constantly interrupt the adults with endless questions, tug on your arm to get your attention, shriek their demands for a cartoon show to be put on the TV, etc. etc.) and of constant "activities" literally all weekend long and most weekdays.. drives me batshit.

You get to the point where you no longer have anything in common with your onetime friends; nothing to talk about - and no time (on their end) to even get together for a meal (not without the kids, anyhow).

It's anoying and it's sad - to see people you like dehumanized into "pod people" whose existence is defined by catering to the endless needs of children... and to lose friends of long-standing because they've become strangers to you...

Very true, Eric. I have a close friend with a 13 year old daughter and 9 year old son. She doesn't ever leave these kids alone, not even for an hour. It's only since the kids are older now that we've actually gotten back in contact with each other. She's not so ga-ga-baby-breeder-brained anymore, but I think a 13 and 9 year old can take care of themselves. These are good kids, too.

So needless to say when we invite them places, we have to be prepared for the kids to come along.

This is sort of on and off topic, but remember the friend I have with four kids and four different baby-daddies? She always talks about her sex life. AL-FUCKING-WAYS. I called her on Sunday and all she could talk about was how she went ot to a club and how the guys were all over her and she had a one-night stand with a married man and that she couldn't believe how BIG he was. WTF?! She says she tells me all this because I'm non-judgemental, but I don't think that's the reason. Now, she's talking to some other dude. They haven't had sex yet, but I'm sure she'll find a way to let me know about it.

I have told her that hubby and I have problems with our sex life and I have also told her that I really don't want to hear about her sex life in detail, yet she still does it, so I rarely talk to her.

Now, whether she does it on purpose or not just to have something to throw in my face or hold over my head because I don't have kids, and she's got four of them and she's got all these problems and issues related to her having these kids (health issues, financial issues, baby daddies, etc.), I don't know, but I do know I get tired of it. She also brings her kids into every conversation, too, which I just try to block it out.

I feel that all the sex talk is also possibly the one last thing she can hold on to to separate herself from being a mom and remembver who she used to be before she had kids and/or to help her forget her troubles.

I hoped I would find her after not having had contact with her since high school after 16 years, but now I see I should have left well enough alone.

VLM, your friend is like many women who love to brag about the boyfriends they had or the married men they bedded so they can feel as if they are 'desirable'. Being 'desired' by a person vs. allowing someone to just use her sexually are two different things. Your friend has nothing to brag about. Four children who all have different fathers says plenty of her 'lifestyle'. Going to 'da club is nothing to write home about, either. Bedding a married man for the night and having all of these kids are not things to pridefully "throw in your face". You and your husband may have some problems at this time but your life is far better than this lady's...and I used the term loosely. This gal is going to find far worse health problems if she keeps sleeping around since the four sprogs are proof of not being sexually safe. Yeah, some people are folks that should not be found...

KidFreeLuvnLife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Very true, Eric. I have a close friend with a 13
> year old daughter and 9 year old son. She doesn't
> ever leave these kids alone, not even for an hour.
> It's only since the kids are older now that we've
> actually gotten back in contact with each other.
> She's not so ga-ga-baby-breeder-brained anymore,
> but I think a 13 and 9 year old can take care of
> themselves. These are good kids, too.
>
> So needless to say when we invite them places, we
> have to be prepared for the kids to come along.

I also have a fried with daughters who are 10 and 13. She also does not like to leave them alone even during the day...but she lives in a very nice part of town. Kids seem good, too. Like many of today's parents, her life revolves around them. It is like my cousin with the endless activities yet both women (friend & cousin) wonder why they are tired.

VLM, your friend does and says that stuff because it's the only way to make herself feel good. She's got problems out the ass - like you've stated - and she is grabbing at the last straw of happiness: sex and promiscuity. You are right, it's the last identifier of her outside of moo-hood. Her being with a married man says it all.

I think deep down, she envies your chidlfree marriage. Your life and marriage is uncomplicated and unharried.

As far as your own sex life, I wouldn't share any more details with her, tell her things are better. You can see if that makes a difference in what she talks about to you. If it does not, then just block her out and take it at face value. There are some "friends" really do wallow in others' misery.

KidFreeLuvnLife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> VLM, your friend does and says that stuff because
> it's the only way to make herself feel good.
> She's got problems out the ass - like you've
> stated - and she is grabbing at the last straw of
> happiness: sex and promiscuity. You are right,
> it's the last identifier of her outside of
> moo-hood. Her being with a married man says it
> all.
>
> I think deep down, she envies your chidlfree
> marriage. Your life and marriage is uncomplicated
> and unharried.
>
> As far as your own sex life, I wouldn't share any
> more details with her, tell her things are better.
> You can see if that makes a difference in what
> she talks about to you. If it does not, then just
> block her out and take it at face value. There
> are some "friends" really do wallow in others'
> misery.


Yep, that's what I pretty much gathered, too - that she may deep down inside, envy my childfree life and stable relationship with hubby. She came to visit me last November, and she proclaimed while visting that she got the most sleep she EVER got in her life because there were no kids to bug her 24 hours a day. LOL

I really don't get to talk much to her about my life anyway because I can hardly get a word in edgewise, as she dominates the convo with kid talk and man/sex talk.

I'm trying to slowly let this "friendship" go....

Ok, don't want to veer too far off topic. LOL

A quick and easy fix to this would be to simply say "Isn't this where your first four children came from?" when she starts bragging about the notches on her bedpost. My guess is, she's headed rapidly towards a fifth, and even less free time to pick up guys in the club. Though with four other ones, she's got a built in babysitting service there...and built in free vacations at your home.

To be honest, I'd drop a woman like this from my life. Eventually the stories of conquest will turn to tales of woe and pleas for help. She'll use those kids to make you feel miserable for her, and even if you don't give in, she'll make sure you feel plenty guilty about it.

"There are some "friends" really do wallow in others' misery." and they aren't friends, and you don't need them in your life.

"It truly is the one commonality that every designation of humans you can think of has, there's at least one asshole."
--Me

Fujiko (DW) and I have no breeder friends. The minute they spawn, they become boring, diaper-whipped and insufferable. I would rather be soaked in honey and staked to a fire ant nest than put up with a fuckbag breeder for even a nanosecond.

The second I find out a friend is pignant is the second she becomes my ex-friend.

I will not listen to stories of "fun" things like morning sickness, nor will I be there for her to demand gifts and free bratsitting from me.

Keep working more hours, CF people! Millions of breeders depend on us.

catmeow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The second I find out a friend is pignant is the
> second she becomes my ex-friend.

When my ex-best friend told me she was knocked up, my reaction was: "This is a joke, right?" I didn't speak to her for about a year after that, so thankfully I was spared all the repugnancy details.

My husband has a good friend who is a graphic designer/photographer. Almost every year, she used to travel around the world, take gorgeous pictures and create 12-month calendars with the pictures she took. Seoul, Paris, Greece - the calendars were great!! Hubby and I would proudly display them in our living room or on our computer desk.

Y'all can see where I'm going with this, right?

She sent us another one of her calendars, and hubby and I were all excited because of her past work. We thought it was going to be another one of those great "Hey, I traveled around the world and here are my great pics for each month!" calendars again. WRONG! WRONG! She found a mayn, got repugnant and got married, and the calendar she created was ALL ABOUT THE SHITLOAF. Not even a picture of her wedding, to which hubby and I went last year. Every month has a picture of the SHITTARD. She even put the loaf's birthdate, weight and length when born on the back of the calendar!!! AARRGGH!

This morning, hubby and I were in the kitchen, and I saw the calendar on the counter (as we haven't even bothered to but it up..and more than likely, we won't...) and I said, "Remember when ***** used to make cool calendars?", and my husband, I guess in defense of his friend said, "I think you're letting your feelings about not having children get in the way!" and I replied back, "NO, I DON'T THINK SO!" Ok, again, I'm excusing his ass for that type of comment because he and his friend go back a long way, and I know I'm more hardcore childfree than he is, but his comment caught me so off guard! Like, WTF?

At any rate, this woman used to have a life, and now, as usual, it's about the squid. I'm guessing that every calendar we receive from her from now on will probably consist of either mainly the kid or her, her hubby and the kid, and from this point on, any calendar received by her that contains pics of the squid will remain on the kitchen counter or "accidentally" thrown away. LOL

VLM, that's just sad. Why would anyone think that people want 12 months of looking at their fuck trophy? Great Gods.

I see your point - a once-cool person has now turned into a walking uterus with a placenta brain. It's death in it's most horrible form.