I HATE it when the grandmoo/peepaw in laws "trap" me and force me to play "Aunt Kim" (rant)

My father and mother in law live within 3 miles of my house and I have to pass by there (or go out of my way) to drive into town. My husband and his father also co-own a small business so not answering his calls or avoiding them entirely isn't feasible. I moved up here in 3/06 and the quest to get us to their fucking house and "visit" 24/7/365 with the two nephews, now ages 3 and 7, began before the moving truck cleared the driveway. Those kyds are over there nearly every single afternoon during the school year, on random days during the summer, and most every weekend and they fuss and fawn over both of them and it's HIGHLY annoying. We have slowly self weaned from these once MANDATORY weekly Sunday dinners over there and the mid week famblee reunions that they have at the granny's house where ALL of the cousins come. The boys are nice anough and well behaved enough, but I think we see them a precious plenty, a bit more than I would care to "visit" with small children actually.

Yet, every chance they get they think of a reason for me to "stop by", or flag me down as I pass by, or prolong the reason I have to stay when I do have to stop by because one of those boys wants to "talk to Aunt Kim." I especially hate it when the FIL tells me to stop by to pick up a check, or some cash they are going to split, on my way to town. INVARIABLY, he will wait until I exit the vehicle and call out in the backyard, "Aunt KIM IS HERE, COME SEE AUNT KIM!!!!!!!!". Then pee paw or GrandNana will start up their routine. "Show Aunt Kim how you can spell, B-I-B-L-E, what does THAT spell?", or "Show Aunt Kim how you learned to do a cartwheel today", or "Show Aunt Kim how fast you can run", or "Tell Aunt Kim how you saw a deer today", or "Tell Aunt Kim about the fish you caught", "Take Aunt Kim to the backyard and show her how you can doggie paddle in the pool","Take Aunt Kim to your playroom and show her your new Batman costume" or "Show Aunt Kim your new Bike", "Show Aunt Kim where that bobcat scratched your arm", on and on and on and on. All I want to do is LEAVE and go about my business! I always am nice outwardly, but I am seething with annoyance on the inside.

They do the SAME thing to my husband and he feels like I do;TRAPPED. I don't really know how to avoid it or I would. I already take another route most of the time which is several extra miles out of my way, and I avoid going over there for anything when I KNOW the kyds are there, but sometimes it happens anyway for various reasons. I can't think of anything to say or do, that they wouldn't find offensive, that would save me from these unwanted "visits". They ALREADY don't like it because we don't stop by there every time we pass by and they will say, "We saw you ride by today and you just kept on going, didn't even stop", or when we do stop by they will say, "HELLO STRANGER!",when one or both of us were JUST over there a couple of days prior or even the day before. I am not the most tactful or sensitive person in the world, so I have said some near rude things before like, "You know, I haven't seen my OWN mother since Christmas, or my OWN niece or nephew since then either because of how far away I live, so not seeing you for a day or two REALLY doesn't seem like that long to me". Another time when accosted at the door with the accusatory, "Hello stranger!", I asked the MIL what she meant by that. Then she said, "Well, I haven't seen you in over a week!", Then I said,"REALLY? It doesn't seem like that long to me, it feels like it was just yesterday". One other time I said, "You know, my family just doesn't do all of this "visiting" and stopping by all of the time, and family meals and whatnot, even when I lived a mile from them, so I guess I am just not used to all of this "togetherness", with as much of an annoyed sound as I could muster without being hateful.

I don't think they "get" my subtle sarcasm as they are'nt all that bright. I don't want to just come out and tell them that I am busy and don't have time to fool with their grandpups (OR THEM) right this minute and then just drive off. They both play the martyr about it and will do things which I think are rather controlling. For instance, they will send a bag of garden tomatos home with my husband for me ( he does'nt eat tomatos so it's clearly for me) and then when I call to thank them they will say, "Well, you don't ever come by and we didn't want them to go bad". They will get back from a trip and call me and tell me they have me a gift and tell me to "stop by" and get it, which will amount to yet ANOTHER forced visitation, but to not stop by to get a PRESENT would make me appear rather ungrateful, I think. The sister in law is deep up their asses and over there at any given time and that's probably because of all of the free childcare and freebies she gets as they dote on her anyway, and now that she has provided them with grandpups, the sky is the limit.

I suppose I will just have to endure it since I am not willing to be downright rude about it and cause anymore famblee friction than already exists because we are CF; but I sure do hate it, resent it, and dread it when I realize it's impending.

That is sad and unless you say something, this will just go on and on and on because no one respects the decision of you and your husband to be CF. I would like to see they just don't get it, but I feel they don't get it because they don't want to.

Poor you and your hubby! from DH and me. I have had him make it very clear to his famblee that we are CF and not interested in the reproductive follies of his sister and brother. That makes me the bitch, but I don't really care. I can understand why you cannot do this, especially if you want to maintain a relationship with your family.

Stuff like your family is pulling pisses me off, because it is a concrete example of how our lives and decisions mean nothing to most childed. I don't go through it, but I can feel for you.

What would they say if you both just told them, "We love you both, and love visiting you both, and don't mind seeing the kids once in a while, but for ourselves, we have chosen and adult centered lifestyle and really don't care to be around children each and every time we come for a visit?"

Would they have heart attacks? Maybe at first, and then just accept it.

See, Kim, what I see here in this story is that they just do not accept that you and dh REALLY ARE CHILDFREE, and than someday you'll "change your mind" that's really the vibe I get....

Thanks for the Merlyn, that's probably all I was fishing for if I was honest with myself. You are probably right that they just don't want to "get it" too. nowhiggers you probably have a valid point too about the we might "change our mind" hopes they may have, especially the MIL, because she outright said that in the beginning. The thing is though that I am over FORTY YEARS OLD, and like I told her the first (and only) time she came right out and SAID "you two might change your minds once you are married", I told her THEN that I hadn't birthed a baybee as of yet, so I will NOT "change my mind" and furthermore I had no DESIRE to change my mind. Then some step daughter to a great aunt popped out her first kid at the age of 48 or 49, and the kyd has Downs, a hole in it's heart, a colostomy bag, has to be fed through a tube, has had several surgeries, and a host of other medical problems and that kyd ain't even a year old yet. Then right in front of everybody at a famblee bbq she says, "See, Gloria just had her first and she is older than you are".

Well, I was absolutely FLOORED when she said that (under the circumstances) and was almost at a loss for words. I had to word my "comeback" very carefully because the grandmoo of the fucked up kyd was sitting right there. I just said, "Yeah, and what a tragedy that turned out to be with all of the terrible medical problems the poor little guy has, I don't think that I am cut out to handle something like that. Gloria must be a stronger person than I am..", or something to that effect. You can imagine what I WANTED to say. Well, you can guess that a shitload of bingos followed. I had pretty much tuned out by then, I think from the shock of the statements being made, but I remember, "Gloria has diabetes, but YOU are healthy", and "They didn't say that her age was the reason for all of his problems, these things just happen", and "God's will", and whatever........Like I said, I had pretty much tuned out from shock that ANYONE would use a worse case scenario like an older woman giving birth to a lump of clay that never has any hope of much else than life in a wheelchair, drooling all over himself, with a shit bag attached. I found it a very strange example to use as a bingo and quite frankly, I still can't believe she said that.

These people are religious fundie breeders and while I have been around the types before, it was a LONG time ago and I was not married as I was a teen the last time I was surrounded, so I didn't have to fend off bingos. Since that OUTRAGEOUS conversation about "Gloria" and her fucked up kyd, I have not gotten any outright bingos, but just the forced "visits" with the nephews. However, that incident with using that retard kyd spawned by an over 40 woman as a bingo, will last me a LIFETIME, if I never heard another bingo again. It's difficult to navigate around and among these people because they do not think rationally and as far as I am concerned, they live on another planet in the state of Oblivia and in the county of Dumdum.

Gotta admit that is one of the more far-out bingoes I have heard, but I guess they have to grasp at straws. It's sad any argument they can find, as long as it sounds as if it could be a plausible argument for breeding. You'd think at that age, no one would think a woman needs to breed, but the breeder frenzy and grandbaby rabies doesn't seem to have an age limit for the victim of that rabies.

My mother accepted years ago that she wasn't gonna have grandkids. DH (we are a transgendered couple) got bingoed about adopting when wannebe grandmoo realised DH wasn't gonna give her a grandkid. It never stops with these people. Dunno why, but well a couple more heartfelt hugs.

When that pre-op FTM gave birth to that baybee a few months ago, all I could think was, "NOW the transgendered CF people will be WIDE OPEN for new and unprecedented bingos". Breederism knows no boundaries. Some of them think it's some higher calling for a woman to postpone cancer treatment to carry a kyd to term. What KILLS me is one who used to go to my church when I was a teen. This woman was in her late 30's, already had four kyds, and got knocked up. She found out she had breast cancer, but REFUSED to abort, like advised by her doctor, so she could get aggressive treatment. Well, she lost God only knows how much weight while preggo and about 3 months after she birthed it, she died. Did she not give a damn about the four kyds she already had or care that she left an INFANT behind who will never know it's mother?

I don't think she was a "saint" for doing that like they were all saying, I think she was a SELFISH IDIOT. Her preacher hubby remarried to a 20 y/o church member before the flowers on her grave had a chance to die. Within a year, she popped out a kyd. So, then that stupid bitch was raising FIVE kyds who were not even hers, and had a new baybee at age 21. I haven't kept up with them since I left that church, but my guess is that she is probably STILL having kyds and probably has a house full of step grandpups too. That is if she didn't die too due to "God's will".

Yeah, it's all totally insane, kidlesskim. My MIL didn't give up until I put my foot down and made it clear that neither of us are having baybees or adopting any. Grandmoo can have them from the other baby rabid kids of hers. And yeah that idiot FTM who gave birth made all FTMs look like idiots who (dontcha know) really want a baybee deep down. I saw the articles and wanted to vomit. We transgenders have enough problems without crap like that.

MerlynHerne Wrote:
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> Yeah, it's all totally insane, kidlesskim. My
> MIL didn't give up until I put my foot down and
> made it clear that neither of us are having
> baybees or adopting any. Grandmoo can have them
> from the other baby rabid kids of hers. And yeah
> that idiot FTM who gave birth made all FTMs look
> like idiots who (dontcha know) really want a
> baybee deep down. I saw the articles and wanted to
> vomit. We transgenders have enough problems
> without crap like that.


I think the MOST selfish thing he did was act as if they needed that baybee so they could be a famblee, when his wife ALREADY HAD two kyds. Why couldn't THOSE kyds be good enough? What's the difference? HER kyds are not bio related to him any more than HIS kyd is bio related to her. It's because HE wanted to give birth or he would have had a hysterectomy around or at the same time he had a mastectomy. Knowing the danger/risks of taking all of the testosterone he took for years in regards to his internal reproductive organs if left intact, regarding cancer, there is NO WAY he kept his uterus for any other reason than he had previously thought about giving birth, in my opinion.

Then he had the nerve to get pissed off because the OBGYN's kept referring to him in the feminine, like "she" and "her", and were'nt taking him "seriously as a male". WTF did he expect, when he had his legs up in stirrups with his uterus swelled to max capacity with a BAYBEE????? That man is selfish as hell and his wife is an idiot for letting him go through with that nonsense. IMHO.

Why the hell should he/she/it get pissed because the OB-GYN referred to him in the feminine? WTF was he supposed to call her/whatever? Last I heard, men don't give birth. Both IT and its wife deserve a good hard kick in the ass.

This got both DH and me pissed off because it's asshats like that that make us all look idiotic or worse. I mean there is that idiot wearing a beard, looking like it had a basketball in there.

A lot of FTMs don't get the hysto because of the expense along with hormones, etc. but THIS IDIOT probably was planning to have a baybee as some genderfuck stunt. I don't have the surgery and stuff because I can't afford it yet but I assure you it NEVER has crossed my mind to have a baybee. Like I said this asshat deserves a good hard kick in the ass--along with its wife for being DUMB enough to go along with it.

It is wierd the way so many parents are keen on playing happy families. I can't understand that huge desire for constant togetherness because (a) I'm happy in my own company, thanks, and I don't need to force other human beings to entertain me 24/7, and (b) I don't like being around children, which most famblies contain.

And I really hate the constant stream of "Show Auntie how you can stand on your head!" thing that Kim describes. Why do parents love these pointless attention-seeking displays of non-talent that you're obliged to applaud? You have to stand there and nod and smile, waiting for the notable feat to reach its apex so that you can pretend to be interested and amazed.

I'm always tempted to mis-time my murmurs of delight -- to go "wow, you're really strong/fast/brave/funny!" before they've even made their first attempt. It sets them off to think you're not playing along and that your responses to their amazing skills might actually be fake.

- - - - - - - -
"The death of creativity is a pram in the hallway"
- Cyril Connolly

Reminds me of something I read in Dear Abby or Ann Landers years ago about "nobody can walk all over you without your permission."

This will go on until you put a stop to it. When they flag you down, you have to just drive right by without stopping. You should tell them beforehand that you will do that so they won't feel needlessly blindsided when you actually DO it the first time, and the second time......You have a life and that does not have to include all this time spent with those you don't want to be with SO OFTEN.

Driving to the local store should not have to include this unwanted side-trip all the time.

kidlesskim, my gawd, where do I begin?

They don't sound like bad people, just kind of clueless. I can relate to some extent....DH and I came very close to moving back to his hometown around the time we got married. I thank gawd EVERY DAY we didn't because I would probably be in the situation you are in because he has approximately 2,134 relatives. When we thought this was happening, I told him that he was free to do whatever he wanted, but I was NOT attending every birthday party and gift grab for obscure relatives, but I'm sure it would have been an issue anyway. I work hard during the week and I need my downtime on the weekends. Weekends are MINE. I love my own mother, but I see her on my terms. She totally understands because she herself was no slouch Moo and she worked a stressful job herself.

His parents also do this dreadful concept called *visiting* at the holidays where 20 people cram into his parunt's 1,500 square foot house where there is ONE bathroom for all of them. I did it once and almost died from shock and I am surprised I didn't get impacted because of no private time in the bathroom. It's a mystery to me, but my in-laws actually *like* having all these people in their house. Their company could stay for weeks on end and it would be prefectly fine.

I insisted on staying in a hotel after that and everybody lived. And actually it's almost enjoyable for me. I can go back to the hotel to get some down time when I need it.

Like I said, they aren't bad people, just clueless, like they are clueless about why a 40+ year old woman wasn't desperate to get married and why I wasn't inhaling fertility drugs the minute the ink was dry on the certificate. Having spawn is just what you do, even if you are poor and struggling because of said spawn.

I can also relate to the baybee situation.

"Like I said, I had pretty much tuned out from shock that ANYONE would use a worse case scenario like an older woman giving birth to a lump of clay that never has any hope of much else than life in a wheelchair, drooling all over himself, with a shit bag attached. I found it a very strange example to use as a bingo and quite frankly, I still can't believe she said that."

Modern medicine, I curse you when I hear of these stories. Of course, modern medicine kept this ninny (the Moo) alive and she should have been grateful for that. Her kidneys are probably ruined and she'll be lucky to make 60.

Back to my in laws, DH told them that it wasn't physically possible for me crank out a kid, just to shut them up. (And just to give you some perspective, I was FORTY FOUR YEARS OLD when we got married.) With that explanation, anyone with any tact would have thought we were infertile and would have declined to pry, but you won't find tact in a breeder any more than you'd find a tropical plant at the North Pole. My SIL started telling me about some friend of hers who was 44 and SINGLE, who got knocked up from a one night stand. The woman kept the baybee even with no daddy and of course the kid is a 'tard kid. She's broke and struggling but of course she's "never been happier." I said something like, well, good for her and and wondered why Breeders pick out the worst examples to push kids on someone. You'd think they'd at least use an attractive scenario.

As far as how to handle the situation, I'm assuming you got married in 2006? If so, it's natural to have a "training period" for all concerned. Start now, rather than later. You mention that you are over 40, correct? You aren't some dim-witted 20 year old bride. You have your own personality and life.

Repeat after me: You can't set a boundary and take care of someone else's feelings at the same time. I get the feeling from your posts that you want them to like it when you have boundaries. Actually, that's not your job or problem to make them happy. Always be polite. Just do what you need to do. Don't hesitate to be a broken record when you need to. Just keep repeating the same thing over and over again, like it answers their questions. When you get really cornered, give them a short statement.

"We saw you ride by today and you just kept on going, didn't even stop."

---Response: Yes, I had to go into town. Hey, how did the tomatoes do in all that rain last night? (In other words, change the subject. Be pleasant, but don't apologize.)

Quote from you: I am not the most tactful or sensitive person in the world, so I have said some near rude things before like, "You know, I haven't seen my OWN mother since Christmas, or my OWN niece or nephew since then either because of how far away I live, so not seeing you for a day or two REALLY doesn't seem like that long to me".

You know, Kim, this does not sound rude to me. You are not berating them. You're just telling them your feelings on the issue. I don't think that's disrespectful. They may bitch and moan about it, but again see #1, you aren't responsible for their feelings. Just go about your business. My mantra, when I am dealing with these situations with my DH, is: It has to work for me too.

Let's look at this exchange:

Another time when accosted at the door with the accusatory, "Hello stranger!", I asked the MIL what she meant by that. Then she said, "Well, I haven't seen you in over a week!"

I think your big mistake here is asking her what she means by that. It's what she wants you to do. Let her call you "stranger" all she wants. Just give her a big smile and do your business.

When she sent you the tomatoes, you could drop her a little note and drop it in their mailbox (if they have a box for the paper.) The rule with any thank you is to DO IT IMMEDIATELY--the closer it is to when you get the gift, the shorter it can be. Or give her a call when you say thanks. If she starts up with the WE NEVER SEE YOU CRAP, just keep directing it back to her:

Her: We never see you, so I sent them along. I didn't want them to go bad.

You: They were absolutely delicious. Thank you for thinking of me!

Her: We really wish you'd come by more.

You: Well, I've been so busy doing XXX--it just seems to be taking up all my spare time. (You can even sigh if you feel like it.) Nice talking to you! Bye.

Her: It's just that nothing is more important than family and you know the boys miss you.

You: Well, MIL, you know I'm glad to be in your family. DH is a wonderful husband. You raised a great son.

What you said about your own mother is perfectly fine. You can repeat this as necessary. Other phrases:

I'm not a chit-chatty type of person.
My family wasn't much into visiting.
Well, that's what happens when you are an older bride--you just are used to doing things your own way.

If you do stop by there, do it with a finite time limit. (Really, though, polite people call before they visit someone.) You could call and say, hey, I am going into town and I have a few extra minutes. Do you have a few minutes if I stop by?

I the boys are there and they want to do things for you, just say, hey, that's great. Gosh, look at the time. I really need to go now. Just keep saying you need to go and walk out the door.

If she badgers you about the nephews, just tell her, You know, I'm not really a kid person. Or I'm over 40 and I just don't have the patience for kids. Better yet, say, you know, Grandmoo, I raised a stepdaughter. I did my duty and it was fun (lie a little) but I've had my quota. Just keep repeating that like a broken record.

It sounds like Grandmoo and Pee Paw need some hobbies. Why can't they get addicted to the internet or something?

Do you work outside the home? Can you blow up your job or your project into something more time-consuming?

And if all else fails, soon it will be dark earlier and they can't see your car. Or just drive the extra miles sometimes. who cares if gas is expensive--it will be worth it emotionally. Too bad you can't move into town.

In my experience, those older people who start with the comments about not seeing you enough, "Hello, stranger!" when you do stop by, etc., are working toward the day when they're going to ask you and your husband to do a lot of things for them.

I stayed away from my paternal grandfather, who liked to try to lay this guilt trip on his grandchildren (especially grandsons like me), for this very reason. As he would get older, he wanted you to see him not to chat, but to help him with little BS "projects" around the house and the like. He wanted free labor, and a number of the other grandchildren (my cousins) went along with it. With you, KidlessKim, they might also be trying to set you up to babysit the grandsprogs.

Thanks for all of the comments and they are right on the money! As far as their "training period", I thought that was funny because I said the exact same thing! It has gotten a lot better since I did some bud nipping and weeding in the beginning. The MIL pulled the "just stopping by' MY house in the beginning and I made it VERY clear that this would not be acceptable, so she stopped that and changed to the trapping me at her house. We lived in an apartment in town for about 6 months before buying this house and it was WORSE then, because the school where she teaches was within sight of where we lived. When she would stop by on her way home, I wasn't home from work yet (on purpose) and my husband wouldn't answer the door. I would find things to do in town for 30 minutes or so to avoid THOSE visits, which stopped after 5 or 6 failed attempts. When she tried it at my CURRENT house, I just made things SO uncomfortable for her with my demeanor and actions, like just saying I was about to go to bed and then go in my bedroom and lock the door and leave her standing there, that she gave that up pretty fast. She would call me and say, "I stopped by your house, but you were'nt home yet, did you have to work late? I just told her basically that I don't remember what I was doing and that I wasn't used to having to report my schedule to anyone, so I hadn't written it down, and little smart assed comments like that.

They probably think I am a real bitch, but if it keeps them off of my front porch, then so be it. Now I just have to work on not getting trapped over there. I have never had any inlaws who were this controlling or so big on famblee togetherness, so it's all new to me. I think part of it is my husband is 15 years younger than I am and while they are not that much older than I am, which I remind them of on a regular basis, they treat me like I am a "young married", and in need of their guidance or something. They control their own daughter, so I guess they figure they can control me. Their son (my husband) is a loner (and I can certainly see why) and has not allowed them to control him like they do the daughter, and I think that they figured that when he married me then they could control ME and the son would follow along. I get the feeling they are SORELY disappointed they aren't getting their wish, but I never gave them any indication that they would.

bellflower is correct in that they are'nt "bad people", which just makes it even harder to be the asshole I know I am capable of being to them. I'll keep working on it though and using some of your ideas and example comments to see if I can avoid "the trap" a little better. K-man makes a good point about how older people do this to trick you into doing things for them, but since they are ony in their fifties, they are barking up the wrong tree for a daughter in law to "take care of them when they are old" bingo, because I will likely be on the waiting list to the same nursing home they get plunked into as I consider myself in their basic age group. I don't understand WHY they won't acknowledge that I am as old as I am, but they never do. I guess if they did then they would feel rather silly trying to control a peer and they wouldn't be able to keep pretending I am "one of their kyds". The whole mess is foreign to me and I think it's weird as hell.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to reply and giving me some unbiased and helpful advice. I can give advice all day long until I am emotionally involved in something and then I can be a rather useless advocate for myself.

I resent people when they dont really want to visit ME, they just want me to entertain their kids in some form or fashion.

Also, we know some couples with kids who expect us to play "auntie" and "uncle" to their children - we aren't even related to them! That is bullshit!

I had a friend years ago, we'd been friends forever, and when she had a baby, she expected me to be "auntie" and come over to visit a lot, babysit for her,etc. When she realized that I wasn't going to dote on her child, that was the end of the friendship.

I think there is far too much pressure on people to LOVE other peoples' children. Its unrealistic. I certainly don't expect other people to LOVE my husband as much as I do, or LOVE my mother as much as I do. So why do they expect me to LOVE their kids?

casseyrod Wrote:
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> I think there is far too much pressure on people
> to LOVE other peoples' children. Its unrealistic.
> I certainly don't expect other people to LOVE my
> husband as much as I do, or LOVE my mother as much
> as I do. So why do they expect me to LOVE their
> kids?


Even parents admit that the one phrase that sends a chill up their spines -- as well as the spines of the rest of the world's population -- is the phrase "other people's children". NOBODY likes "other people's children". Naturally, parents think that phrase doesn't apply to their children, who are unlike all the nasty, dirty, lazy, mean and uncontrollable offspring of others.

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"The death of creativity is a pram in the hallway"
- Cyril Connolly

kim, do you call him "peepaw" too? lol.

casseyrod Wrote:
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> I resent people when they dont really want to
> visit ME, they just want me to entertain their
> kids in some form or fashion.
>
> I have family members who have done this to me- space out on front of the computer or tv and strand me with their children. I have a plan to be less available when I see them on thanksgiving. I've told my brother point-blank to stop putting his 2 year old on the phone.

My partner in my former business married a breeder who was educated beyond her intelligence, but chose instead to have babies soon after they married. When she would come into town to get her hair done or shop and grandmoo wasn't available to babysit, she would drop her 2 y/o off at the office for duddy to "watch". Fat fucking chance of that happening because the kyd would always escape across the hall to MY office and open my cabinets looking for snacks, dump over trash cans, want to sit in my lap, etc........His dad would half heartedly tell him to come back across the hall but never do anything concrete to make the kyd stay put. Once he offered me $50 to change his kyd's diaper because it was "gross" and I just told him that I didn't need the money that bad and walked off. He was able to get one of the guys who worked for us to do it and he had kyds and didn't think it was any big deal.

I am sorry, but I resent being saddled with someone else's kyds ANYWHERE, much less while trying to work. It was kinda funny, but up until he had kyds when we had cook outs at our office or office lunch parties, he would say, 'If we invite spouses, they might drag their damned kyds in here, should we not invite spouses?". Of course after he spawned, every event was "famblee included", including big parties at his ranch that involved heavy drinking and a pool party. I declined to be any more involved than my share of the cost, perhaps a covered dish, and minimal actual participation. He was a much different person after he and his wife spawned, which I found quite sad.