Miss Manners nails breeder lack of table manners

Moo has the right idea about not letting her brat play with the condiments in restaurants, but she's spineless...and they have to "wonder" about the etiquette aspect of it? I love how Miss Manners delivers her reliable smackdown.

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Dear Miss Manners: My husband has always let our son, who is now 3, play with various items on the table when we go out to eat. These items include sugar packets, creamers, jelly packets and things of that nature. I think it's gross that they are playing with things that other people will actually use for their food and drink, but my husband thinks it's no big deal because these items are wrapped.

I chose to let it go several times in the past in an attempt to not be controlling and let him do his thing. However, when my son and I went out to lunch with his aunt and her children, my son went to grab for these items, to which his aunt immediately said "no, no" because she was closest to him.

I want to make this a consistent rule that he not be allowed to play with these items to avoid confusion in the future. Although my husband is willing to back me up on this rule, we still are curious as to the manners aspect of it.

Gentle Reader: The reason is that it revolts other people.

In better days, when children were routinely taught table manners (and conversation) every night at the family dinner table, the most frequently heard admonition was "Don't play with your food."

Intermixed with "Tell us about your science project" and "Pay attention to what your father is saying; you might learn something" were specific instructions, such as "Stop making a volcano out of your mashed potatoes and gravy," "Stop blowing bubbles in your milk" and "Stop throwing peas at your sister."

And so on, about everything on the table, including the candles, the napkins and certainly including all foods.

If anyone questions this, Miss Manners can supply a cautionary tale about an American ambassador in Europe who lost his job for not obeying. At a state dinner, he bet his dinner partner that he could shoot a pea across the table into the decolletage of the lady seated opposite him. Won the bet but lost the job.

The story about the American ambassador is hilarious. And Americans wonder why everyone else in the world thinks they're a bunch of loud, mannerless, clueless cretins.

Not to mention if you sit at that table next, heaven knows what you will find.

When I was a sproglette, mom and dad handled table manner problems directly and without hesitation. There was no discussion or agreement. I was told to stop it or there would be consequences. It usually went like this:

Mom or dad: STOP THAT.
Me--repeating action.
Mom or dad--smacking my hand or butt.
Me--never doing THAT again.

I mean how hard is it to physically discipline your brats when they so clearly need it?

"In better days, when children were routinely taught table manners (and conversation) every night at the family dinner table, the most frequently heard admonition was 'Don't play with your food.'"

I love that bit!

My sister in the States has three sprogs and I hate their table manners. They eat like prisoners -- one elbow on the table propping up the head, the free hand stabbing away at chunks of food any which way, which is then stuffed into the mouth as they continue to talk through the food. While they're kicking the chair next to them. Pausing only to wipe their mouths with the back of their hand. It's so disgusting it's almost hypnotic to watch. Children in the UK would never, ever be allowed to perform that badly at the table. My sis doesn't eat like that, so why the hell is she letting her shit-for-manners kids do so??

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"The death of creativity is a pram in the hallway"
- Cyril Connolly

My aunt used to soooo get on my case about having good table manners...no burping, no slurping, no chewing with mouth open or talking with mouth full.

Then when she pushed out her own kid, she let the kid sit on her lap at the Olive Garden and shovel spaghetti into her drooly mouth one noodle at a time with her hands. And then using the cloth tablecloth a a napkin.

IDWIYO?

we still are curious as to the manners aspect of it.

Because they're clueless. How dim do you have to be to fail to understand that other people don't want Junior's grubby, dirty, likely unwashed hands mucking all over a food item they might eat? Ugh. Good on the aunt for calling the kid on it.

Excellent Miss Manners smackdown, as always.

How about the manners one can see on American TV? It's so adorable to have to clean your child's ENTIRE HEAD when they have spahghetti/pudding/french fries....

"You can't slit the throat of every cocksucker whose character it would improve."
-Al Swearingen

clematis Wrote:
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>
> Because they're clueless. How dim do you have to
> be to fail to understand that other people don't
> want Junior's grubby, dirty, likely unwashed hands
> mucking all over a food item they might eat? Ugh.

Exactly! Who knows where the hell that brat's hands were. Ewwww!!! When I was a kid, we were never allowed to behave so obnoxiously.

Yes. Maybe he's one of those diaper-diggers. Blech!

I was having breakfast over the weekend when a women and her 1ish year old shows up. She of course is doing that talking thing so that we will notice and tell her how beautiful her brat is...but no... instead we were talking about how disgusting it is for her kid to be playing with and mouthing the liquid cream containers.

Then all of a sudden the kid bites into the container and the cream spurts out all over the place. I laugh out loud and say to the kid.. do it again, do it again. They were then placed far away from the kid. Mom was NOT amused but I was.
PS

I am often amazed and scandalised at the lack of table manners in this country. My parents made me sit at the table like a young gentleman, both at home and when we went out to eat. I was not allowed to play with my food, period. I was expected to use an "inside voice", and learned to converse in a civilised manner. Talking with food in my mouth was not allowed, either.

But most families don't even have what could be called a civilised sit-down dinner anymore. It's junk food, eaten at the restaurant, or when they are home, the parents cannot teach their children proper table manners because they themselves have not been tutored in ordinary civility.

Miss Manners KICKS ASS in a big way. I love her column and I've read her books.

She must be totally AGHAST at the manners that people deem fit for public life in this day and age. And it just keeps getting worse.

No that's perfectly fine! Probably recommended in fact!

Dining is generally a bit more complicated here in the UK. I'll type some of the basic rules so you know what I mean. They may sound fussy but believe me it really is good-- more efficient, more polite, and the chances of being grossed-out by fellow diners is much less.

Even kids over the age of about 6 know at least half of these rules!

Here we go. We use the European method of dining, so:

Fork stays in the left hand at all times, held upside down to an American (overhand and "tines down"). Index finger is extended along the top it, as if 'pointing' at the tines.

Knife stays in the right hand at all times (held overhand and "blade down"). Index finger is extended along the top of it, as if 'pointing' at the blade. Unless of course you're using a fishknife in the right hand and that's held underhand a bit like a pen might be.

One may combine meat and potatoes or veg on the fork using the knife to press it on (so long as the knife stays low to the plate and the fork tines remain in contact with it). Careful not to 'clack' the silverware together.

Pausing for a sip of wine or water means the knife is laid vertically along the right edge of the dish, blade pointing inward, to free up the right hand to take the glass. Soon as the glass is put down, the knife is taken up again in the right hand.

The correct method for eating the bread roll (which is on a side plate to the left of the diner and is never placed on the 'main' plate) is to tear pieces off of it with fingers. Butter taken on a butter knife from the communal butter dish is never applied directly to the bread - and they must never ever dip into the communal butter again and again as they apply butter to their half-eaten roll. Yuck. The diner is meant to take just one 'supply' of butter from the dish on the butter knife at the very start, press it onto their side plate, and pass the butter dish along to the next diner. The 'personal supply' of butter on the side dish can then be applied again and again to the bread roll without everyone double-dipping into the butter dish and leaving funky crumbs and remnants of their spit behind for everyone else.

The elbows never touch the table under any circumstance. The forearms may rest on the edge of the table in casual dining unless of course there is food on the fork. One should lean forward over the plate but never stoop down towards the plate like a hound.

The plate must be left in position and never 'spun around' like a lazy-susan serving accessory. Also, long pasta noodles are never to be chopped up -- that's considered cretinous -- so the 'spindle' method is used and a table spoon is often supplied in case the diner needs a surface other than the china to twirl the fork against. Soup is scooped into the spoon towards the diner, never away from the diner (scooping 'away' usually indicates someone who is meaning to be polite but has got the wrong idea).

Pausing to speak for more than a few seconds means the fork and knife should be laid onto the plate in 'resting position' (handles pointing towards the diner's hands) so that the waiter (or mum) knows that it's just a pause and not a finish.

One should never ask a question to a dining companion just as they've popped some food into their mouth. This requires them to hurry up, chew roughly and swallow quickly, probably choke, and maybe die, to answer a stupid question. Considered extremely rude. One ought to just comment lightly on topics and save questions for long pauses or between courses unless one wants a dead guy at the table.

When finished, the knife and fork are most often placed side by side in the two o'clock position, handles pointing away from the diner to indicate they are finished. In some regions, people lay them side by side at the top of the plate - I think that's old fashioned - at any rate, the handles are together and pointing away from the diner meaning 'finished'. I've seen some Americans place them in an 'X' across their plates, and they think that means 'finished', but then the waiter is confused because the handles are still pointing towards their hands, so he will have to interrupt and ask the diner if he is finished.

Dessert usually only requires a single fork or spoon (rarely a knife too), so that would be held as an American normally would - in the dominant hand, under-hand style.

If one rises from the table but is not yet finished eating, the napkin is laid discreetly across the vacated seat until the diner returns. If one rises and is finished eating, the napkin is laid discreetly folded to the right of the plate on the table.

Here's a difficult one! If a fishbone or piece of gristle that cannot be swallowed is encountered, this must never be spat into a napkin and folded up (just think of it tumbling out across the table or floor when the waiter removes the napkin!). Knife and fork are put down into 'resting' position, left hand is raised to upper lip to cover mouth while right hand retrieves offensive item from tip of tongue (out of view of companions). Item is placed discreetly on the edge of the dish. Same method is used if a serious case of spinach-tooth is detected which cannot wait for removal til the dining is over.

If served at a table, pizza, fries (chips), and hamburgers are all eaten with a fork and knife. Yes! This one never fails to separate the North Americans from the Europeans in mixed company.

That's the main jist of it -- now you can all come over and dine at the Ritz with confidence! Oh just remember to take the baseball caps off first! heh heh!

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"The death of creativity is a pram in the hallway"
- Cyril Connolly

I was raised the European way and that's the way I've always been dining. Expect for the burgers and pizza, which I eat with my hands. Ususally it's on casual Friday at home, watching a movie. :-)

With all due respect, Amethyst, holding one's fork that way (after a whopping 230 years, I know) drives me crazy.

I like the bit about removing the baseball caps, Amethyst! One can tell the relative class of a restaurant by the presence (or absence) of hats on the diners. Another things that creeps me out: hairy and/or fat guys wearing tank tops in restaurants. Just awful!s

I've noticed that as well. Having visited Europe with my family, this is much how I eat now. I do know that I am appalled by American table manners, or rather, lack thereof. I have seen people grab a fork in their left fist and then cut with the right...I don't understand...I guess my parents, although American, at least one of them, my mum, was raised by a German lady and so her manners were better than those of most Americans.

I shudder when I see breeders dining out. It resembles feeding time at the zoo rather than humans enjoying a culinary experience. When I was still with my ex, her ill-mannered brat wanted to sit on top of the table with his bare, dirty feet up there making eating difficult if not impossible. I think I finally got through to Moo, because by the time I left and her ill-mannered girlfriend took my place (she is the one who would grab her fork in her fist when cutting meat), Bratleigh was sitting at the table and attempting to eat like a halfway civilised human being.

Ex often characterised me as a snob, but if trying to eat like a civilised human being is snobbery, then so be it.
x

Besides, it's so satisfying to quietly and elegantly eat by "the rules" outlined above (European style, but is how I was raised) and just as quietly observe how many people are breaking them left, right, and center...or seem to not know that any rules exist.

Satisfying to people with dark little hearts like mine anyways.