1433-It's about what YOU want!

Yeah, that works out REALLY well in a marriage. I'm sure she probably oopsed him more than once! Why are some other people so concerned about other's breeding? It's a personal choice between a couple.

Oh no, we can't have a married couple respecting each other. Get out there and start defying his trust and ooping him just to make sure there's a great environment for the kid to come into.

Wow...there's no better way to strengthen the bonds of love and trust between husband and wife than to oops the guy when he doesn't want kids. I wouldn't be surprised if your co-worker did oops her partner, considering she has no shame in advising you to do so.

This reminds me of something I read on another forum about a woman who had two kids that were the result of oopses, was pregnant with Oops #3, and planned on one more oops later on. The kicker was that her husband never wanted kids.

What better way to snag yourself a walking wallet? I mean at least if the marriage fails, you have a sure-fire steady income of child support for the next 18 years. What a great idea!

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It is all about what these women want, Sherz. I worked in a very small medical call center years ago. This one moo worked very part-time. Her husband made close to $20 an hour as a fire inspector. The man also worked massive overtime. This moo had what we call in the business "pattern callouts": for her, it was always on a busy Friday night or Sunday morning. She screamed about working her little three-day week. One night, I nearly fell out of my seat when she said her husband needed to get a second job because SHE was "tired" from working "so hard" and wanted to stay at home with the three sprogs.

In 1998, I worked a security job where I mentioned these women employees of the client talk about the SAME issue. These were born-again X-tian women...all moos. One of the moo's husband worked for the client for their internal security team to investigate the company's restaurants if there was a robbery or possible employee theft. The moos were talking about how their husbands should be the ones to get second jobs rather than the 'wimmin' having to work because it was their duty as men-of-the-household.

Again...it IS only about what these women want. They want it all but don't want to do any of the giving. They expect the men to work themselves to an early grave so they (the women) can stay at home and spend more money. These wives -- like I mentioned in a previous rant & thread -- never EVER appreciate the men's sacrifices. If the husbands get laid off and have to take a lesser paying job, the wives still spend on frivolous stuff and whine of having less $$$$. I can see why many men have extramarital affairs. I could not imagine working my a** for someone who did not appreciate but selfishly wanted more while *I* got nothing in return.

Sorry I am so longwinded... :lips

As I've mentioned on a previous thread somewhere, my mom oopsed my dad to get pregnant with me (she strongly alluded to this when talking to me at some point long ago--bad mistake). Anyhow, it explains a lot. My dad beat the shit out of me and my sister throughout most of our childhood. He did not want to be a father. Frankly, since he felt that way, he really should have gotten a vasectomy (but it still doesn't justify my mom oopsing him). I think that women who oops are among the lowest creatures on the planet. My mom was more concerned about buying herself more time outside of the rat race than avoiding saddling a man with kids he didn't want. And the price for her self-serving choice was paid by two innocent little girls.

Incidentally, my dad ended up going in for a vasectomy the moment my mom announced she was pregnant with me. He didn't even wait to see if she was going to miscarry... I read that as: He was beyond positive that he did not want any more children, even if I didn't end up going to term.

Thanks, mom.

Yeah, nothing like forcing a guy to have a kid he doesn't want! What a lovely idea.

How do these evil moo bitches get to feel so entitled, anyway? And why do the huzzbands put up with it? Just leave, dammit!

Seriously: if you don't want kids, why 1) are you married to a baybee-rabid banshee to begin with? 2) do you STAY married to said witch? and 3) haven't you gotten snipped already?

I particularly hate this because those are the men single ladies like me end up meeting. And we don't WANT them!

That's really messed up, guest, and I'm sorry you had to suffer as the end product of your mother's bad choices. I hope your adult life is better that your childhood, and I'm glad you are aware that the abuse your endured is not your fault.

My DH and I are new to being CF, since we assumed when we married nine years ago that we'd have children "someday" - probably after four to five years of marriage. Like Lady War Dog and her DH, we had "the talk" about when we would BOTH be ready to have children for several years.

When we first married neither one of us wanted to have children right away - particularly since DH had just started graduate school and money was tight. When we had been married about three years, I started to have baby cravings after my younger sister had twin boys. I'll admit it - I was jealous of all of the attention she received.

But I knew that DH wasn't ready to be a father, and I respect him and the trust we have in our marriage enough to not force him into something that he does not want. So I didn't push the baby issue with him.

Now I'm glad I didn't push it or even think about oopsing him. It gave us time to really consider parenthood and ultimately decide to be CF. We've both seen that parenting is not all that great for many couples and their marriages, especially those couples in which the husband doesn't want to be a father.

My sister and her husband have had many problems in their marriage since they began having children. (Besides the twins, they have a 3-year-old daughter and another son on the way, and she admits the new baby was an oops). My BIL wasn't all that eager to be a father in the first place, and it shows in his interaction with the children. He ignores them as much as possible and leaves almost all the child care to my sister, who is a SAHM.

I've seen this happen to other couples. The husband and wife who spent so much time together before children spend very little time together after having children. The husband doesn't want to spend time with children that he didn't want in the first place, but he can't be alone with the wife because she spends all her time with the children.

I can't imagine being a virtual single parent by choice because you're so rabid to have a baby that you're willing to see your spouse as just a source of sperm and income rather than as an equal partner who wants to spend time with both you and the child and do his fair share of caring for and raising the child. I can't imagine the company of children being better than the company of a loving, supportive spouse.

Lynn, it is good you can admit to being jealous over the younger sister who had those babies. I bet you also realized that Sister's life was not that great once the oohing & ahhing was over. I have known a few women who only wanted a baby due to complaining how they were so jealous over their friends who had babies. I am glad I was never jealous over a pregnant woman or a new moo. In fact, I am always relieved that it is NOT me! Welcome to the CF life, Lynn.

Guest, unfortunately this happens a lot. At least, husbands having affairs do not hurt the kids unless they up and leave without paying any support. The real issue is when fathers abuse their children due to anger at being "oopsed" and forced into fatherhood. I hate the myth women tell themselves, "He will love the baby when it is here." I...don't...think...so! As a survivor of sexual abuse, I do know where you have been as an abused person.

Thank you Sherz. Yes, my adult life is much better, but I do think I have some carry-over issues/problems, and I'll probably never be totally "normal" (whatever that is).

I'm sorry you were abused, too, India. It's awful what some people do to kids. And the fact that we, as full-grown adults are talking about it here and now just shows how long the damage can last.

Guest, I was writing my last message as you posted yours, so I wouldn't want anyone to think I was being insensitive.

I'm so sorry you had to go through this and are still living with the consequences. There is NO excuse for a father taking it out on an innocent child who didn't ask to be born. That is horrible.

For the record, I was abandoned by my father 'cause he was (and still is) a deadbeat loser. So, just like you, I am still very messed up and don't think I will ever be "normal" either.

E tu, Medusa?? I'm sorry... you get <>

Speaking only for myself, of course (I know this is a common bingo theme), I sometimes wonder whether part (not all!) of my reason for being CF is because of what happened to me. I have never had the fairytale take on "family" (meaning husband and wife and kids) that most breeder women seem to have (or had until they actually embarked on following through with the lifescript). I've always thought of the institution of family being something negative and undesirable, rather than appealing.

I wonder if others have the same feeling.

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Medusa, that little sign was supposed to contain the word "HUGS". I'm not sure what happened.

Thank you Lady War Dog for you and your husband actually putting some thought into wheather having children is right for your marriage! At least you both are smart enough to realize that children are not toys or fashion accesories and that they require WORK!
As for your co-worker's advice on oopsing your husband: worst advice EVER! Even Dr. Shinyhead McTexas; who's as breederific as a person can get has said oopsing is a bad idea for everyone involved:

"In order to have a baby, it takes a yes from two people. But it only takes a no from one person to stop it. Both of you need to be comfortable with having a child. Don't force your partner into parenthood. It could lead to resentment, threaten your relationship and be bad for the child."

(Source: http://www.drphil.com/articles/article/27)

Guest, I have always thought of "the family" as being a negative institution. Even as a kid, I felt this way. I also have always believed that "the family" is often worse to the female children. Women tend to be more often assaulted or killed by family members than by strangers. Even American men have their versions of "honor killings" if a daughter or wife 'steps out of line' sexually. Lesbians are often disowned or physically abused by the "family" if they come out of the closet or are outed by someone else.

Lady War-Dog, you co-worker sounds just like some of those bints who post over on Baby Center. For those who haven't seen that trainwreck of a site, they have a board called something like *Ready for a baby, but my partner isn't*. I have read some horrible oopsing stories on that board, and it makes me even sicker to know that other moos are actually encouraging this shit.

Kudos to you and Mr. War-Dog for discussing this very important issue like civilized human beings, rather than lying and cheating behind each other's backs. I wish you both much happiness, no matter what the two of you decide.

Medusa Wrote:

And why do the huzzbands put up
> with it? Just leave, dammit!
>
> Seriously: if you don't want kids, why 1) are you
> married to a baybee-rabid banshee to begin with?
> 2) do you STAY married to said witch? and 3)
> haven't you gotten snipped already?

I'm guessing that they've only ever met women like this, so they think ALL women want baybees. It doesn't occur that there might be CF women out there. So they figure this is the price they have to pay for human companionship.

Thanks All! I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that H's comment was outrageous.

I found out that H had IVF with at least the first set of kids (twins), which I know is NOT INEXPENSIVE. I wonder how much badgering poor Mr. H had to go through for that! Her 3rd child has some sort of disorder which requires constant care (poor kid is hooked up to a feeder IV 24/7), and will never walk or talk. Um, I think the Goddess was trying to tell her when she couldn't get pregnant "the old-fashioned way" the first time that she wasn't supposed to be a parent. Know what I mean?

Speaking of which, she uttered a new BINGO yesterday, one that I hadn't heard before: "Don't cheat yourself out of the experience of motherhood, and don't let War-Dog do it either!"

Yes, my DH is an evil evil man who wants to cheat me out of the experience of a lifetime of sleepless nights, dirty nappies and listening to my child scream every time I change her IV needle.

H IS correct, I AM starting to change my mind...just not the way she intended. LOL!

--Lady War-Dog

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I have also heard the "it does not matter what HE wants" when it comes to those wives wanting those babies. I knew a woman whose friend was having twins. The husband was freaking because of cost because only one child was planned for. Another of this woman's friend was having a second baby despite the husband not wanting another child. The woman's response to about her friends' husbands, "These men just have to DEAL with it!" This woman also bugged her husband for that baby. I have no pity for women like her when the man takes up with someone else or "deals with it" by leaving.

When I see a moo with sproggs that were "accidents" being abandoned, I only wish I could go up to them and say, "What's the matter? Your walking insurance policy walked out the door?"

The moos may have a hand in the man's wallet for the next 18 years but I can't imagine the sheer HELL on earth having to care for brats by yourself. And the only men who want women with kids are those saddled with kids themselves. Then the moo expects her new man with kids to forget all about his old family and totally immerse himself in hers.

Sucks to be a moo!!!!!

I also don't understand why so many men cede to the woman's desire instead of really thinking about, and defining/articulating what they (the men) want. My boyfriend is a great guy, but when he and I first met, and I told him I was childfree and asked if that would be a problem, he spouted off something about supporting "whatever the woman wants..." He is apparently "undecided" about whether he really wants kids. His last girlfriend apparently really wanted them to have kids one day, and he told me that he was of the mindset then that, "I guess I'll HAVE to do that", like some sort of dreary resignation or something. Obviously, if that was his attitude, he didn't really WANT kids after all. Why would someone go along with it, because they think it's "up to the woman", even if a voice deep down is telling them that they're not really into it? I just don't get it. I think he believes he's being cool and modern and open-minded, but I think that that attitude, when it comes to deciding whether to breed, is not very appropriate. I guess it's good that she dumped him, since otherwise he might be a half-hearted daddy by now.

Oh, I should also mention, and I'm sure that many here agree, one of the main things (if not THEEEE main thing) that couples should wholeheartedly agree on before getting married, is whether or not they both really (actively) want kids.

Guest, I agree with this 100%!

Once upon a time, when he was married to the ex-bitch, Catdaddy thought he wanted kids. But the ex-bitch could not concieve...she'd been pregnant several times before she met Catdaddy, had a couple of abortions and then a couple of miscarriages. So it never happened. Thank DOG for that!

At the time I met him, I was coming off a bad marriage...part of the reason why my ex left was because he decided that he wanted his very own DNA replicant, and I was not willing to oblige him on that one. I have no doubt that he would have tried to oops me (yes, men do oops women, too), so I was very careful about this. Things eventually got so bad that I wasn't even remotely interested in having sex with him...but even so, I kept a sharp eye on my birth control pills, keeping them hidden someplace where he could not find and tamper with them.

But even if I did get knocked up by him, I would have gone and had an abortion and not told him.

Anyhoo...when it was clear that Catdaddy and I were getting serious, I told him flat out that no baybees would be forthcoming from me, and if he didn't like it, this was his chance to go look for a broodmare elsewhere. That was when he told me that he used to be on the other side of the fence, but is now grateful that nothing ever came of it. He got snipped shortly after we got married, so that is over and done with.

Yes...honest communication is the key!

CatMommy,

I keep telling War-Dog that if he is really, REALLY serious about not wanting children he should get the snip (since that procedure is an outpatient one and any permanent birth control for me will be invasive and probably require an overnight hospital stay). He is balking, however, since like most men he gets the jibblies at the thought of anyone coming near his genitals with a sharp instrument. Is there anything that I can tell him to ease his mind since you and CatDaddy have already gone through this procedure? Thanks in advance!

--Lady War-Dog