1567 um, global cycles?

riddle me this, if we caused all the changes Gore noted, then what caused the same rate and degree of changes that occured 300,000 years ago? too many dinosaurs pass gas at once?

I'm no republican, and i honestly believe that green is the way to go, but scare tactics like his always fall on their face, look at the global COOLING issue that was raised back in the 70s-80s... what about the massive population growth they expected to lead to global famine? i guess you'll say that's due any day now? hate to break it to you, but our excistance is a LOT more sustainable than that.

Dont bring your slanted BS onto a forum designed for rants on a totally different topic. If you want to talk global destruction, goto moveon.org and preach to the choir.

I haven't seen the movie, but I think Vanilla Wasteland is just pointing out that a growing population will need more and more of the earth's finite resources. A common criticism of the CF is that if everyone were CF the human race would die out. VW's post supports the CF belief that there is no "need to breed". Maybe I misinterpreted VW's post since I haven't seen the movie, but I think the negative environmental effects of a growing population is a common topic on CF boards.

You need to see this movie. I saw it yesterday. Thing is, the rate of change is NOT the same as cycles past. The facts is this film are backed up by significant, credible evidence. I think in the US we are taught to believe (by politicians and media) that "it's all OK, just keep breeding and consuming - everything will be just fine, it's those crazy LIBERALS and HIPPIES that make you want to feel guilty for being a privileged American consumer!!" Sorry for the political rant, but everything is not fine, and unfortunately Gore makes less of a deal about overpopulation than other aspects of global warming. Because, of course, you can't expect people to stop or curb their breeding.

I hate the MoveOn.org folks. I am a liberal and can be very far to left on some issues but realize "my side" needs to be more moderate to get voters. I do not like Al Gore, period! He is very anti-abortion even though the Dems told him to straighten out on that issue. Wifelet Tipper wanted music censored to "tiny ears" cannot hear bad things.

I am a liberal person but do not like the Democratic party. I also don't care for the Republicans. I have been listed with both parties. I would like a party that does not hassle women about abortions & birth control but also does the good things that comes from Republicans. Both parties have a lot to offer. However, the Dems have not really given us anyone to vote for...

No offense to those who do like Mr. Gore. We all have our own opinions and that is good.

rowdy roughly 1/3rd of the population of the planet is starving, its not a stretch of the imagination to say if those 1/3rd didnt exist, then there would be no starvation. and the more people have children the more starving people there will be, but not in good old america and the UK, and the western world, but in the 3rd world. who are having more and more kids. which puts more strain on the systems in that area, more land needs to be cultivated to support, and so on..

this is linked to the cf stand, a lot of us dont want to bring any life into a starvation world of the future for some thats a BIG reason for some not so much.

of course you also have to look at the individual costs of life, and things to make that life easier, more people means more meat and vegetables grown, which means rainforests and other areas being re developed for food, then they move on.. we the childfree create less cost of life, because the future generations will not exist, so not only do i save the planet from the expense of resources of 1 kid, but every kids they have, and so on.. the cf are essentially the greatest ecological force, in a purely resource way.

part of the problem is one of bushes supporters (robert G upton, he beleives in the rapture) reagans secretary of the interior he has been quoted as saying theres no need to protect the environment, as the best will be saved when the rapture comes.. and as everyone knows having a kid means entry into heaven.. (sarcasm)


http://atheism.about.com/b/a/086669.htm

the original site has gone, but luckily i saved and blogged it. here

http://mercurior.blogspot.com/2005/08/last-commentor.html

James Watt (Secretary of the Interior)

"We don't have to protect the environment, the Second Coming is at hand."**Secretary of the Interior in the Reagan Admin. Responsible for National Policy regarding the Environment

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1137769/posts the robert upton memo

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0420,perlstein,53582,1.html


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I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

I have lived long enough to remember the previous climate scares that were made back in the 50s and 60s about a new ice age, and now it is a new global scare about warming and greenhouse gases.

Politically, I am moderate and do not label myself either a republican or democrat. I am a registered independent and have been since I was old enough to vote. For those of you who remember back before the Reagan years, that was 21 before that amendment passed!

I talked to my cousin who teaches geology and meteorology at the state university, and he tells me that scientists are not in agreement over what is truly happening. There is evidence for global warming and evidence against it. To me, the jury is still out on global warming. I think the Kyoto accords were a complete disaster, because the most ecologically threatening countries in the third world, those with no pollution controls whatsoever, were conveniently excluded from it. And China would not sign it, and they are the biggest polluters out there. Until the question is resolved, and probably not in my lifespan, I will continue to conserve resources because it just plain saves money.

One thing is very clear to me. There are just too damn many people on this planet and we hardly need more. We are overtaxing our resources and breeding uncontrollably is not the way to solve the problem.

Unlike most of the hypocritical politicians on BOTH sides, I drive a small car, live in a small house and conserve resources because it is the economically smart thing to do. My energy bills are lower, my health is better because I walk when I can, and I walk up two flights or down two flights of stairs at work. These are simple things to do, and quite frankly make much more sense than wasting energy or resources.

Sometimes I just don't know why I bother being such a good citizen, recycling and barely using my car and saving electricity and such. The world is going to hell anyway, and I won't be around to see that, nor will any descendants of mine. So why should I care?

And it REALLY pisses me off when people I admire for being intelligent and socially/politically aware suddenly become breeders too. Damn it! There is no hope.

Back in 1990 when I was a bagger aka "courtesy clerk" at Safeway during the paper or plastic brouhaha, stay-at-home mothers with their Volvos and mini-vans would be nasty to cashiers of how plastic bags are bad for the environment and are not biodegradable which is bad for children. I wanted to tell the "c's" that cranking up the air-conditioner in their gas-guzzlers when the temps in Marin got to maybe 80 degrees was no better. Nothing is worse than an ultra-consumer housewife yakking on about "the environment". I also wanted to tell these women to go out and get a job so they could focus on something else rather than blab about a topic they had no real knowledge...

Rowdy - I won't honor your nasty comments to me with an answer other than this. You know nothing about me or my political leanings. Your anger speaks volumes about your lack of emotional well being. In the future, you might decide to engage your brain before engaging your mouth, or in this case, fingers to keyboard.

I was taught that when people are as angry as yourself are, there always is something deeper just beneath the surface. Pain and sorrow.

Medusa Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sometimes I just don't know why I bother being
> such a good citizen, recycling and barely using my
> car and saving electricity and such. The world is
> going to hell anyway, and I won't be around to see
> that, nor will any descendants of mine. So why
> should I care?

For the same reason most of us CFers care - we do it for the animals and plants. It's not their fault that humans have destroyed the planet they live on.

when i was young and upto now, i have never been scared of certain films/series, i know it sounds off topic, but, the films where there is a plague and you are the last human on the planet, like in 28 days later, shaun of the dead, dawn of the dead.. the idea of being alone has never scared me, well for the past 2 years theres been someone with me, but generally no humans around.

i am very anti social, my dream house would be a small cottage in the middle of nowhere where i never saw anyone, get food delivered once a month..

on one tv show they said the reason why aliens havent been here is because humans are a disease on the face of the planet. and we are, we spread/breed indiscriminatly, we destroy and consume more than we should. i feel sorry for the animals.

in one study it said the optimum amount of people for the planet, and the optimum comfort and resources (so it can regenerate) is 500 million people. just imagine a planet with only 10% of the population as it is now.. http://www.optimumpopulation.org/opt.earth.html


In recognition of the impacts of population growth on the environment, the UNPD published [9 December 2003] longer-term world population scenarios. See World Population in 2300 Its Medium Scenario shows that even if the total fertility rate drops below replacement level by 2175 (at 8.3 billion), other factors would cause numbers to rise again to 9 billion in 2300. The UNPD's Constant-fertility Scenario extrapolation of population growth to 2300 at 1995-2000 fertility levels shows world population reaching 134 trillion by 2300. The UNPD points out that this is "an untenable outcome" which "clearly reveals that current high levels of fertility cannot continue indefinitely." Its alternative Low-growth scenario, based on total fertility remaining at a sub-replacement level during most of the period 2050-2300, could gradually reduce world population to 5.5 billion by 2100, 3.2 billion by 2200, and 2.3 billion by 2300

http://dieoff.org/page99.htm


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I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

Rowdy-I don't see how being CF and overpopulation is not relevant to each other. Overpopulation is leading to other species being pushed out of existence. BTW your comments are nasty.

What species other than humans could possibly affect the earth the way we have? What species burns fossil fuels other than humans? You have global cycles, but humans are fucking with the cycles, and I think that's the problem. Anyone who has gone to a third world country can get a sense of what I'm talking about. I think the problem is masked in the US and other Western countries. Ever see what the air is like in downtown New Delhi, India or Lima, Peru? After one day in New Delhi, I blew my nose and it was all black dirt and mucus from the crap in the air.

Don't get me wrong. I love India (and Peru). Beautiful places. But people can't just keep breeding without thinking. This ain't the only film that exists about the potential consequences of burning fossil fuels. Bill Moyers had a great program on PBS about it a few years ago.

CFScorpio Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For the same reason most of us CFers care - we do it for the animals and plants. It's not their fault that humans have destroyed the planet they live on.

Exactly. Even though I sometimes feel like "Who gives a damn?", as I said, I still recycle and save energy and everything. Because it breaks my heart when I think of the poor animals suffering and going extinct. If people would just stop mindlessly breeding like deranged cuckroaches and think about what they're doing on a larger scale... Pfft, who am I kidding... We're just delaying the inevitable, sadly.

I have to agree with Medusa. It breaks my heart to hear about natural habitats dissapearing and animals going extinct. Humans are a serious cancer on the face of this earth, spreading and spreading and spreading. I do my best to conserve, reuse and recycle, but I know that most of the stuff that goes into the recycling doesn't get recycled, and what the hell difference does my fuel efficent car make when every other vehicle on the road is a giant gas-guzzler. Sure, I live in an old house, wear thrifted clothes, and try to live sustainably, but when I drive past the miles and miles of crapass subdivisions and chain stores on the way into town, I know that you, me and everyone we know aren't making an ounce of difference. The sooner we wipe ourselves off this planet, the better.

Well said, Feh. I'm just waiting for something to happen that will wipe a decent sized portion of humanity off the earth. That sounds awful, I know, but it's how I feel. Then the earth can start to repair/replenish herself, if possible.

Go watch the movie. It is real.

These moos bleated about the "paper vs. plastic" bags in 1990 when I was a bagger at a market...yet these same bints bought the plastic Pampers for their infants. How is THAT any different than choosing to have groceries put in plastic bags? Overpopulation is an issue.

I got blown off years ago when mentioning how the skies are more crowded which puts more pressure on air traffic controllers. Some airports are so clogged that an arriving flight may sit on the runway for half-an-hour before a gate opens up. Get on any plane and look out the window before take-off. Most runways do look like the interstate during commute traffic.

We are being affected in many ways by rampant breeding...and it is not the Third Worlders who are ruining the planet even though their families are larger. Westerners use the most resources and create the most garbage.

LM-CF Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well said, Feh. I'm just waiting for something to
> happen that will wipe a decent sized portion of
> humanity off the earth. That sounds awful, I
> know, but it's how I feel. Then the earth can
> start to repair/replenish herself, if possible.

I totally agree with all of you. Hopefully up until now, the Earth has seen us as a mere inconvenience like a mosquito bite. Now that we're becoming a full-blown infection, the earth will pull out the geological big guns and fight us off like the flu until at least half of us are gone. Either that or a stadium-sized asteroid collision would do the trick.

And LM-CF, I don't think it sounds awful, we're just seeing the much bigger picture.


>
>
> ---------
> "If a child shows himself to be incorrigible, he
> should be decently and quietly beheaded at the age
> of twelve, lest he grow to maturity marry, and
> perpetuate his kind." ~ Don Marquis
>
>
>
>

Sometimes I feel so misanthropic when I say things like that, but it's getting too effing crowded. The Earth will do something to set things right, whether it be a new virus/illness, devastating weather anomalies, whatever. I'm so sick of seeing almost every bit of open land developed and more and more resources sucked dry. I'm sure the situation is similar (or worse) in other places as it is where I live in the SE USA. I get so mad when people say "But we have plenty of untouched land left". Yeah, and it would be nice to keep a little of it that way, considering the way everything else is being razed around here. As I've mentioned once before, we live out in the country, but the new developments/subdivisions/gas stations/etc. have worked their way to within 1/8 of a mile from our house. It used to be so nice here. Now there's a lot of garbage on the roads and more and more wild animals are being hit on the road due to the massive increase in traffic. And it's only going to get worse. F*ck!

When I first came to the Orlando area, there was a lot of untouched land. Now, that is gone...gone...gone as the land was cleared aka with the "clearing fires" to build more of those pre-fab subdivisions, schools, gated communities, and....whoopee...more malls. I always felt so sad when I would see more wooded areas being burned away to get ready for construction. In my complex, I have recently seen more than a few egrets. Beautiful birds! Their homes have been destroyed by rampant development. I often wonder how many of these lovely birds get run over by idiotic drivers or tormented by horrible sprogs.

It's hard not to feel misanthropic these days. Especially living in the Western world. I mean, I like people on an individual basis, but as a whole human race, we suck so far.

It's like the developed world is bringing down the average of the whole human races' report card in "Earth Housekeeping 101". I haven't seen this movie yet but it sounds to me like we're in our senior year in high school and have only one more shot to get our grade up.

I guess the only way is to scare the beejezes out of everyone with a movie like this one.

If the starving 1/3 of the population were gone, there would still be starving people and have-nots due to simple human selfishness and corporate greed. Global warming is natural. Mars is also getting warmer. Is that because of the Martians polluting the air? Nature is much bigger that we can imagine. A comet or a supernova could wipe out this planet in seconds. Many of our problems could be lessened by fewer people, but remember the problems would still be there. Remember the book Animal Farm we read as kids.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol7no3_supp/hughes.htm


there are more infectious diseases about, and more violent people, all animals if they are cooped up get more aggressive. could serial killers be a natural evolution of the planet finally attacking humanity.

http://www.niaid.nih.gov/dmid/eid/

New infectious diseases continue to evolve and "emerge." Changes in human demographics, behavior, land use, etc. are contributing to new disease emergence by changing transmission dynamics to bring people into closer and more frequent contact with pathogens. This may involve exposure to animal or arthropod carriers of disease. Increasing trade in exotic animals for pets and as food sources has contributed to the rise in opportunity for pathogens to jump from animal reservoirs to humans. For example, close contact with exotic rodents imported to the US as pets was found to be the origin of the recent US outbreak of monkeypox, and use of exotic civet cats for meat in China was found to be the route by which the SARS coronavirus made the transition from animal to human hosts

*********************************************************************************************************************************
I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

Thanks for those links, Merc!

You know, I always see these studies of where they put too many rats in a closed environment and famine, murder, anxiety, etc start to go off the charts. It makes perfect sense to me since we evolved as small bands of people with alot of space in between.

So if what I read in another post is true, and Earth can only comfortably support about 50 million people, than it blows my mind that we're at 6 billion and haven't completely wiped ouselves out yet.