1580 IVF Brats--Good for Economy? I have my doubts!

I found this place not too long ago, so let me say I am pleased that there is yet another outlet for the CF to vent about breederom and brats.

The study was conducted by the National Institute for Clinical Excellence in the UK, a centre known for its generally good research methodology. It was also assisted by the Rand Corp of Europe. Overall, the study has drawn some rather faulty conclusions which I would like to point out to this audience.

1) Most of the epidemiology studies on IV-fert and geezer-breeder brats does not paint as rosy a picture as NICE's conclusions would have you believe. These kids tend to be plagued with early onset cardiovascular and other serious disorders, so the idea that they contribute positively to national insurance and income programs is dicey at best. Also, geezer-breeder and IV fert brats are more prone to mental illnesses than most control groups studied, and the cost of this treatment does not seem to be included in the study. As with most health-related studies, the indirect costs (e.g. loss of productivity when absent, loss of productive capacity while working ("presenteeism") and associated costs are normally higher than calculated in these studies.

2) The costs of this type of massive social engineering project, vis-a-vis encouraging uncontrolled breeding in a world of declining natural resources is incalculably high. Nowhere does this NICE/Rand conclusion to support IV fertilization mention their inclusion in the analysis. What costs might these be? Well, consider the costs of new housing, health problems associated with problem pregnancies, violence and criminal activity associated with the increase in urban density and other indirect costs too esoteric to mention.

3) Nowhere do NICE and Rand confront the inherent racism of their position, e.g. "don't go burfin them furreign baybees". Their conclusion of "false economy" is not defensible given the costs they have failed to include in their analysis along with the underlying moral and ethical questions.

Sorry to be so wordy.

dont worry bout being wordy, i suffer from that too:-).. its nice to see a thinker on here.


*********************************************************************************************************************************
I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

Well said, Dr.Dan! It's interesting how none of these things are ever mentioned in any of these "studies." Wouldn't it be nice if there was a study done by an independent group not affiliated with the govt. or a corporation?

Right on DrDan! and RANT ON!

Folks are just worried about the white folks dying out, not about the human race as a whole...and I say SO WHAT?! The earth will still be crawling with selfish, indulgent humans, they just won't be white.

and doesnt ivf have a low success rate. i say this, if they werent meant to have kids they wouldnt need ivf, if it is a genetic problem, thats causing them to be infertile, then they have a kid what kind of problems will that kid have.. infertility would only increase if there is a genetic component. these multiple births they also have a greater chance of problems, twins are something like 40% more likely to suffer from defects, triplets even higher

*********************************************************************************************************************************
I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

People should look at it this way: if they aren't getting repugnant through natural means, they should count their blessings and get the hell outta Dodge.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,8122-2207495,00.html
Success rates for IVF can be improved by implanting two or three embryos at once, but this greatly increases the chances of conceiving twins or triplets.

Stillbirth and death within the first week of life are four times more common in twins and seven times more common in triplets than in lone babies.

The incidence of cerebral palsy is five times higher for twins and 18 times higher for triplets.

Such infants are also more likely to be born prematurely and with a low birthweight, and their mothers have a higher risk of dangerous complications such as pre-eclampsia.

The Assisted Reproduction and Gynaecology Centre in London is the leading clinic for live births. It has a success rate per cycle of 53.8 per cent for women under 35 using their own fresh eggs, one of the best rates in the world. But the clinic also tops the table for twins and triplets, which account for 40.5 per cent of births to women under 35

*********************************************************************************************************************************
I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

Doesn't anyone think that maybe there's a reason beyond infertility that peopld aren't breeding? The privleged folks in the developed world are more able to see what the human population is doing to the planet (I highly doubt a subsistance farmer in the middle of guatamala is going to have the opportunity to see Gore's movie anytime soon), the difficulties of raising a kid in today's society, or are less willing to accept a loss of freedom and finances to reproduce and are willing to accept the fact that yes indeed, there may indeed be more forigen people around to fill in the economic gaps that our lack of breeding may have caused. If that's the case, no amount of free IVF is going to increase the number of privleged folks.

I understand that immigrants have their own set of problems, I also know that access to education and having your basic needs met decreases the number of children people have. Since we are unable or unwilling to allocate resources in an equitable manner, it's the natural course of things that the "privleged" folks end up not breeding enough and the "under privleged" folks come to our countries to take care of us and raise their own standard of living at the same time.

Sorry to reply.

IV fert does indeed have a very low success rate, whatever the technology being used. Essentially, you are forcing a pregnancy upon a body that does not want to be pregnant, and the human body has some pretty incredible defense mechanisms against things that it does not want.

Another problem associated with IV fert is the tremendous ethical question of who should be implanted vs. not. If you essentially take the Rand/NICE position, it appears that only the white Euros "deserve" IV fert where the non-white or non-Euros do not according to the "false economy" analysis put forth. This is an ethical conundrum bordering on insanity.

Ah, DrDan, no reason to apologize. Really, post and rant all you want. We welcome all comers!

yes dr dan, dont worry, rant as much as you wish, some of us may disagree with others, but we are all friends here, common interests.

it is great to see another intelligent person ranting on here

*********************************************************************************************************************************
I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

I know Dr. Dan from other CF boards...he has posted some great rants, and he is A+++++ at breeder smackdown!

Welcome, Dr. Dan!

Yeah Dr. Dan! This is strange cause I just read an article in some womans mag and these two twins (IVF) were born with major heart problems. Now 2 million(!!!), dollars later, they're "OK". But good Dog they are very,very ugly!! Geezer Breeders are the proud parunts.



P.S. Rant away PLEASE!! We love it! This isn't Ivillage.


-Can't feed 'em? Don't breed 'em!
-Bumper sticker

You are very welcome to post here. Thank you for your enlightening information!

---

lab mom