Medicaid for illegals' babies

Don't we have enough home grown poverty in the US? Do we really need to import more?

When this country was new, we needed immigrants to populate it. That is no longer the case. We have more than enough people to do the work. If employers really want to exploit cheap labor, then look to the prisons. There are plenty of non- violent offenders in the system to do the jobs that Americans can't afford to take, due to the companies that don't want to pay a fair or legal wage. Let them give back to society. We don't need more illegals, and we certainly don't need their parents, grandparents, cousins, or children.

Actually, I think Americans and America create their own poverty just fine without the help of illegals coming into this country.

I think Feh summed up the numbers nicely here:

"There is plenty of money to go around, it's just a matter of distribution. If the 3% of the people who have 40% of the wealth only pay 10% of their income in taxes, versus the 80% of the people who have 50% of the wealth and pay 30% of their income in taxes, don'cha think that maybe, just maybe, there might be something wrong with that distribution system? "

By the way Feh--nicely said in both posts.

dragon, I do not support rampant breeding from ANYONE. "Illegal" immigrants aren't the only ones breeding. Remember there are all sorts of people on this earth, and you can't discriminate against one race...especially when it comes to breeding, since all people seem to like the idea.

People are people, and the earth is for all of us...it's a shame the US government had to screw that up. Mexicans should have the same rights we do when it comes to being a citizen. Anyone should! Anyone should be able to go anywhere without problems. Of course, it's not going to happen most likely, because of people preventing it.

I don't know about you all, but I love all races of people, and just want everyone to live in peace with each other. And about living with the "illegals", I've known some, actually. My aunt dated one a few years ago, and he had some friends. Some of the nicest, hard-working people I've met. We invited them to our Christmas party and they were also a lot of fun.

Something ridiculous I just have to put on here, is that I am a real estate business owner, and I rent a condo out to a young black woman, in a mostly white neighborhood. The day she moved in I had two complaints, about how she was "moving her whole family in", when actually they were helping her move furniture. And how she was "throwing garbage around", when that was a lie. I have a very good tenant, and I believe the people were just stupid and scared, and racist. They didn't complain after that, and it's a good thing because she's great, and pays her rent on time. I would have gone to court to keep her in my condo.

So anyway, sorry about the personal story there. Just wanted to throw out there that not all "colored people" are horrible people who just want to breed and take control of our welfare system. Get rid of welfare and the only people who'd want to come over here are people who'd work! It's a no-brainer to me.

TimsGirl139 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> People are people, and the earth is for all of
> us...it's a shame the US government had to screw
> that up. Mexicans should have the same rights we
> do when it comes to being a citizen. Anyone
> should! Anyone should be able to go anywhere
> without problems. Of course, it's not going to
> happen most likely, because of people preventing
> it.
>

your talking about citizens, not illegals, citizens deserve all the rights, illegals dont.. and by that i mean they deserve human rights, but not the rights to get free money from the state, if they want it they will have to pay into the state. just like everyone else does..

and anyone should go anywhere without problems, i can see a few problems with that, with decent people, ok, but there are many people who just want money, power, with no regard to others. there are many who want to force their faith down the throats of all, and i am not just talking bout muslims, but xtians and every other ilk.. we are not saying all coloured people are like that. the majority of people who go through the citizenship route are hard working, decent, and contribute to the society.. a lot of illegals dont.. but they expect the same priveledges as people who pay money into the system.

would you like everyone on the planet to turn up in america, everyone from a poor nation, draining the resources of america. ok there will be some benefits a larger workforce.. but you will have more negatives.. more cars more pollution, more crime, more racism (from both sides).. thats the problem. there is only so much any one country can take at any one time.. we dont argue that legal immigration is good, but a lot of illegals just take.. these are the ones we object too.

america is a nation of immigrants, but they all have become productive members of that nation. they integrated, they became the backbone.. this was before the welfare state, now the new generations of immigrants come in and they see its an easy ride. they dont have to work, they dont have to do this or that, and why should they since you give money and aid to this current generation of immigrants. next year more will be spent, and so on until the entire country is bankrupt..

*********************************************************************************************************************************
I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

Yes, my family emigrated LEGALLY to this country over 200 years ago. They learned English, and worked their asses off to succeed as AMERICANS.We've never been a part of the hyphenated crowd, even my husband- an IMMIGRANT.

Yes I'm aware that people drive without insurance. However, if caught, they face a fine of $1500, and the loss of their drivers' licences. Illegals don't have drivers' licences. They just drive, anyway.

Yes, there are many uninsured Americans. However, they go without care, because they can't afford the ER. Illegals don't care who has to pay for their health care. They believe they're entitled to it.

How do illegals pay any payroll tax, when they're paid in CASH? Or, if they aren't being paid in cash, they recieve a check drawn on a different account than the payroll. Check cashing places are the banking system for these people.

I am well aware that most of the world speaks more than one language, but do they demand it as a condition of employment in almost every industry? And, yes I do speak a language other than English. It just isn't fluent Latin American Spanish.

No Child Left Behind is an abomination to the educational system in this country. I won't argue with that. But when 3/4 of the class speaks Spanish, that takes away from the American childrens' education. Since the Americans pay for it, shouldn't their kids' educational needs come first?

Employers that knowingly hire illegals are as guilty as the illegals, themselves. I believe they should be brought up on charges of tax evasion, unfair practices, and immigration fraud, if they know that the illegal they've hired is using fake papers. It's a very easy thing to check out. However, I know that this will never happen. I don't agree that Americans working under the table are any better, but they aren't screaming for rights, and benefits. They know they're breaking the law. They don't cost the taxpayers billions of dollars per year. If Uncle Sam catches an American cheating on their taxes, or failing to pay their taxes, there's all kinds of penalties- possibly even jail time. Illegals get to bypass those penalties. Their employers are lauded as heroes for helping those unfortunate "undocumented workers" achieve a better life.

I don't undestand how anyone can support the idea of different rules for different people. That's not in anyone's best interest. Or, is it?

Well, actually, it's the people with all the money and power who DO get to go wherever they want. They're the ones who can travel freely across borders, set up homes where they want and whatnot. Regular citizens, legal or not, don't really get to move about with such ease.

No, everyon ISN'T going to turn up in America, Canada or Europe to steal our booboo. It's simply impossible for every poor bastard out there to save up the several thousand dollars it costs to get yourself sealed in a container and shipped to one of these countries. Or to seperate themselves from nearly everyone they know to trek several hundered miles by foot to try to cross a hostile border. There are indeed people in every country who are willing to sacrifice themselves and their lives to try to make the country they reside in habitable, unfortunately for us all these people are few, and generally have no support from the "first world" countries who complain so bitterly about immigration but do alot to help facilitate the conditions that lead to people wanting to leave their countries.

The policies of our government and corporations are helping to make their native lands the very hell holes they wish to escape. If american corporations actually had to live up to the charters that allow them to exist in the first place, this wouldn't be such a problem. They wouldn't be able to outsource to forigen companies and still say "american made" so walmart can sell their cheap ass products and be all "rah rah go america", they wouldn't be able to house their banking operations in the carribean where they don't have to pay taxes, they wouldn't be able to hire illegal workers and pay them less, and they certianly wouldn't be able to scramble all over the world trying to find the places where they can do whatever the hell they feel to their workers and the environment. There was a time when a corporation's existance was based on their ability to provide some benefit to society, that has since ended.

I would also have to disagree with the statement "america is a nation of immigrants, but they all have become productive members of that nation". Um, no, that's simply not true. My own family of german, irish and norwegian immigrants has turned out a wide varity of citizens including rednecks, drunks, criminals, nurses, doctors, teachers, athletes, carneys, druggies, actors, lawyers, lay abouts and even a few studious nerds. Not every person who decides to become a legal citizen goes on to contribute to society, or produce offspring who contribute to society. Citizenship has nothing to do with law abiding activity or societal contribution. Hell, citizenship has nothing to do with how well you know your country or the rights granted to you. Currently, citizenship simply means you were either born here, or you've filled out a bunch of paper work, jumped through a bunch of hoops and passed a test.

For a strange, depressing and bleak picture of the America, I'd strongly recommend the Borat movie. Nearly every interaction he has with an american is hostile, menacing, threatening or just plain unpleasant, usually due to some of our natural born citizens ignorance, distrust and simple dislike of anything that isn't wholy straight, white, male and American (in their minds). Personally I don't worry so much about the illegal folks. It's the real, natural born citizens who don't have the slightest understanding about the constitution, bill of rights, equaility, why our goverment was set up with checks and balances, or even our basic civil rights who are the ones who've done nothing but appove of and prop up the growing fascist theocracy in our goverment that is actually destroying everything the U.S. used to stand for. THOSE are the ones I worry about.

"It truly is the one commonality that every designation of humans you can think of has, there's at least one asshole."
--Me

First, an aside- No one is really American but NA's, people say. But, yet you're supposed to be all-american and patriotic. The US needs to make up its sodding minds. Technically NA's aren't really Native. Theycame over on the Bering Strait.

Now, as for the US not accepting Mexicans, and making it hard for them. Actually, the US is bending over and taking it up the bum for Mexicans. they are the only ones that have everything in thier language, as well as English. They can just crawl over the border, pop those sprogs, and get all kinds of benefits. As for being bi-lingual, that is great. I'm learning French, Vietnamese, and Lao. I also would love to learn German and Italian. the thing that bothers me is being forced to learn a language because of some people who are too lazy to learn the language, and too lazy t go through proper channels to become legal citizens. Thepeople who do the proper things to emigrate are wonderful, and a bonus to a nation. I am not asking anything from anyone that I am not willing to do myself. I will be emigrating to the UK to be with Mercurior. Even though it is terribly difficult, I am going through the proper channels to do it, not just going there, and never leaving, even though that could be so much easier. I respect the UK too much to do that. I also know that I must integrate, and go by the rules of the country, and learn the way people speak there. I'm not going in there, and demaning everyone say 'elevator' instead of lift, drive on the other side of the road, and have a Waffle house and Taco Bell on every corner because I am 'losing my culture'. I am adapting to the UK, and gaining another culture. If I could not do that, I would stay in the US. What is so wrong with learning the culture, language, and integrating with the country you are moving to? Nothing. By all means keep the culture you came from, but by the same token, respect, and integrate with the culture of your new home. Become a part of the greater community, as did the vietnamese, Laotian, Polish, German, Chinese, and many others have. this new wave of immgrants should do the same thing. Equal is equal, not special treatment. The immgrants of the past worked for what they got, not demanded it for free whilst walking all over the country they are demanding it from. I know there are exceptions, but the exceptions should be the rule.

ok feh the majority have contributed the ones who join in, but a lot dont.

*********************************************************************************************************************************
I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

sprogless Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Illegals don't care who has to pay for
> their health care. They believe they're entitled
> to it. I
> don't agree that Americans working under the table
> are any better, but they aren't screaming for
> rights, and benefits. They know they're breaking
> the law. They don't cost the taxpayers billions of
> dollars per year.

Hmm...illegals don't care? They believe they're entitled to health care benefits? How do you know what these people think, are you one?

And, how do you know that all Americans working under the table aren't "screaming for rights and benefits"? And if they're working under the table, aren't they costing taxpayers just as much money as the illegals?

What makes us think we're better than someone else? Because we "pay into the system" that's so screwed up it's not funny? And they don't, right? Even when they pay every other tax but payroll? They get services from people with jobs, like any other person.

I just think that this whole subject is really sad to talk about, especially when people aren't willing to lighten up "the system" and give someone else the chance for freedom that they once had.

As far as health care for illegals goes, hospitals and the professionals who practice within them may not legally, ethically or morally deprive any person who requires care from a life-threatening situation. That being said, what constitutes "life-threatening" is very, very well defined by statutory and case law and by custom and professional practice standards. Those are standards which we may not deviate from at any time.

As for other situations, I believe the Mexican government has much to answer for, in terms of the poverty of its citizens, the corruption and their refusal to deal with the situation. Dealing with their problems by exporting them to the US or other countries is deplorable and amoral. This situation is not new, but in the past twenty years has increased to the point of unsustainability.

I do not give a shit whose politics are what, but Congress and the administration has to deal with the situation NOW and stop fucking around. I, for one, am not a right-winger by any political measure or point on a continuum. I am sick and fucking tired of paying increased taxes to pay for people who are not here legally. There have been so many missed opportunities that one loses count.

We may not be able to deprive them of required medical care, but we can certainly destroy any incentive to remain.

We are better than those who don't pay their fair share in this country. How is it that we can talk about our own people breeding and taking from the system but suddenly it is acceptable for people from other countries to sneak in and take from our system? Americans are not expected to take care of the rest of the world's people. We need to take care of our own first.

TimsGirl,it is very nice that you have your Mexican friends over for Christmas. People should get to know others besides their own. However, this does not take away from the fact how illegal immigration is hurting this country. Europeans are having the same trouble to the point where some of the illegals...and many legals, are resorting to violence to intimidate the people of their new land.

The African-American woman you rented to should not have faced that stereotype of moving in her whole family. Yet, this was a fact with Mexican and Central American illegals where I used to have a condo. The WOULD have up to 10 of their family members or friends living in a 2 bedroom/one bathroom unit! For awhile, it was so bad on that block that my mom who has a unit there had to rent to illegals. Decent renters of any nationality did not want to rent in that neighbourhood.

Don't even ask how the Guatamalan illegals actually asked my mother to lower the rent, which she did, and they had an attitude of not getting the security deposit back after they messed up the place. I know many Americans do the same thing to rental properties but this is stuff that was seen all of the time in this area. Fortunately, my mother has better tenants now: a Mexican family who are related to past tenants. Yes, these people are here legally.

As for saying there will always be enough money to go around to take care of illegals, that is the same as the religious right wanting abortion and birth control banned stating how overpopulation is a myth and how all of the world's people can fit into the State of Texas. How can we complain about our own people, especially those with children, wanting more $$$ from the US government but we want to hand it to those who broke our laws when they entered into the country. Canada plays no games with illegal immigration as my former co-worker learned. She had to come back home because the Canadians gave her no incentive to stay, which I applaud. Besides wanting to be with her leech of a boyfriend, Cy****a only wanted to live in Canada due to the "free" medical care and other bennies.

Like Dr. Dan, I am not a right-winger at all. Many liberals are also tiring of this growing problem. Many Hispanic-Americans do not support illegal immigration, either. I have noticed more than a few conservatives supporting illegals due to their culture being more "family oriented" which means supporting bans on abortion or contraception due to religious values. That is another issue altogether such as wanting the Mexican or Central American vote for conservatives.

TimsGirl, Living in a state, where there are more illegals than any other, I believe that I DO know what these people think, how they act, and what they believe they're entitled to. I worked in the legal profession for many years, and I've seen it with my own eyes. I speak from fact, experience, and knowledge of the legal system. I know what I am talking about. Having Mexicans over for dinner does not make you an expert on the subject. Let me ask you a question. Have you ever sat in a courtroom during an immigration hearing? I have. The entitlement is unbelievable. They demand more rights than citizens do. Have you ever had to live next door to a family of illegals? I have. Try it, and get back to me. I guarantee your opinion would change. Has your car ever been hit by an illegal? Try getting your money, and don't complain when that proves to be impossible.

If you had bothered to read the thread before responding, then you'd know that I am not an illegal. That was just a shit- shot, and you damn well know it. Any intelligent thing you may have had to say went right out the window, right then and there. We don't have to agree with each other to have a civil discussion/debate.

Sprogless, I also think it was a cheap shot. I am originally from San Francisco. I have lived in Florida for 14 years. It is bad here but worse in the SF Bay Area. During the illegals protests and demands to stay here and continue to benefit off our system, my mother had to see the entitlement attitudes on the way to work as she drove through the streets of the Embarcaderro part of downtown San Francisco.

As I mentioned in previous posts and why I am on this topic a bit, I lived in neighbourhoods where the illegals piled all of their relatives or friends into a small apartment or condo. I have had the awful experience of walking down the street and these male illegals believed they were entitled to make sexual comments. This happens A LOT among the Hispanic illegals due to attitudes towards women.

I have mentioned my car getting hit by illegals many times and how it was *I* who was stuck with the bill while the cops said nothing could be done. Like I could really sue in small claims court! I worked for a medical call center (answering service). Many Hispanic patients of the doctors' offices would get angry when I told them I did not speak Spanish after they asked. Hey, it is not MY problem if these people do not know the language! After all, they chose to come over here. I certainly did not beg them to live in an English speaking country.

Yes, the majority of Americans have roots from other countries. However, other countries also once "belonged" to others as well. Sprogless, you are also right how having Mexicans over for dinner or X-mas does not make a person an "expert". It is almost the same excuse of "Some of my best friends are Black." I have also asked the question in the past if any of these pro-illegal immigration people have lived next to illegals, had their cars hit by them, dealt with the nasty attitudes towards females, and the list goes on.

I do not understand why many childfree-by-choice people complain about our own homegrown breeders taking from the State and giving nothing back yet wanting illegals and their throngs of children to benefit from our tax dollars. It is okay for our people to be angered over Muslim fanatics and their attitudes but it is somehow "racist" to state the same about Mexican/Central American illegal immigrants. Both are threatening the American people but in different ways.

sprogless Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TimsGirl, Living in a state, where there are more
> illegals than any other, I believe that I DO know
> what these people think, how they act, and what
> they believe they're entitled to. I worked in the
> legal profession for many years, and I've seen it
> with my own eyes. I speak from fact, experience,
> and knowledge of the legal system. I know what I
> am talking about. Having Mexicans over for dinner
> does not make you an expert on the subject. Let me
> ask you a question. Have you ever sat in a
> courtroom during an immigration hearing? I have.
> The entitlement is unbelievable. They demand more
> rights than citizens do. Have you ever had to live
> next door to a family of illegals? I have. Try it,
> and get back to me. I guarantee your opinion would
> change. Has your car ever been hit by an illegal?
> Try getting your money, and don't complain when
> that proves to be impossible.
>
> If you had bothered to read the thread before
> responding, then you'd know that I am not an
> illegal. That was just a shit- shot, and you damn
> well know it. Any intelligent thing you may have
> had to say went right out the window, right then
> and there. We don't have to agree with each other
> to have a civil discussion/debate.

Sprogless,
You may think you know what every single individual "illegal" thinks, but you don't. Sorry, but I don't believe you are psychic. Oh, and I never said I was an expert on the subject, I just said not all of them are horribly bad people. You misunderstood me. And I don't believe my opinion "would change" about it, because I'm not racist...never have been, never will be. No, I've never been hit by an "illegal", but I have been hit by someone where it was impossible to get money from them, and I didn't complain. I doubt I would complain any more if it were an "illegal". I know you're not an "illegal", I'm not as stupid as you think I am. I was saying it to make a point. I've read the entire thread. Racism just pisses me off, so I have to respond like I do. Intelligence does not leave, it always overcomes the unintelligent. I AM NOT calling you unintelligent or stupid. I'm just telling you what I believe, and I believe we are entitled to opinions. If racism is your opinion, that's fine. I just don't agree with it. Sorry.

The real problem is your employers who like to have these migrants as workers because they will work for very little pay unlike the official residents.

If they plugged the gap by jailing the employers for doing this, then you would see a change.

Its down to greedy people wanted to make more profit and do so by breaking the law in order to do it.

The word immigrant is being taken as being racist, this is not racist neither is the word illegal racist, its only racist to attach comments to people simply because of their colour or race.

Is is OK for a white skinned person to come and overstay their visa are they not illegal immigrants just the same, is there the same uproar about them.

If you are just focussing on aliens meaning racist when in reality we don't mind Mexicans,Polish whatever so long as they do the legal requirements in order to belong to that country.

IN fact America was formed by immigrants some of whom jumped ship these days they would be called illegals. If in your mind immigrants means racism, then you are the racist, if you focus on the legality of it regardless of race they are "criminals" as they broken the law hence the word "illegal".

Also by assuming that illegal immigrants are necessarily of a different race then that is making a racist assumption.

Illegal immigrants to the United States for example could quite easily be white Europeans the operative word in all this is ILLEGAL and not as you seem to think IMMIGRANT.

its not racist to call people criminals, criminals are people who break the LAW, the mexicans or whoever wants to come live in the US and do all they can to become citizens, with all the legal paperwork, that shows respect, but if you DO NOT become a citizen of that country then you are breaking the law..

thats it.. nothing to do with racism, i love my faust, if i was to go over there i would do all the paperwork, because i respect her and that country, but if i didnt fill in the papers then this white british man, would be an illegal immigrant.. would that be racist. i am breaking the law.. but i would be in the same boat as the mexicans et al.. you are assuming when we say illegal mexicans we focus on mexicans, we dont.. we focus on ILLEGAL first.

*********************************************************************************************************************************
I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

A person does not have to be a psychic to see what illegal immigration has done to certain parts of the USA and neighbourhoods. I have lived in a few of those neighbourhoods that were flooded by illegals. Unfortunately, the bad experiences have been with the Mexican or Central Americans. I have worked with Mexican-Americans, Puerto Ricans, and Cuban-Americans who also object to the sneaking across the border by those trying to get here illegally.

I definitely complained when the uninsured Mexican illegals hit my car as well as when a white man rear-ended me over 11 years ago. The second person used my shock as a way to take off since no real damage was done to my old car. I had a nasty case of whiplash for a couple of weeks but had no medical insurance and did not know my auto insurance would cover it so I did not seek out health care. I was very ticked off at the incident as well.

How do I feel about white Europeans overstaying their visas? That is a good question for us all. I am not that thrilled about that, either. In San Francisco, I had known wealthy siblings of friends who used illegal immigrants from Ireland or Poland because they were as cheap to hire for domestic work, especially for child care, as their darker-skinned peers. These people lived in New York. Delphine got it right how business owners support illegals coming over due to greed. Same goes for manipulating work visas to keep others here longer so an American does not have to be paid a decent wage for the same work.

Due to not living in NYC, I have no real idea if the lighter-skinned illegals use the ER as a clinic but I am sure they do. An illegal au pair of a friend's sister I knew felt it was her right to not have to return to Ireland. I met the young woman when my friend's sister's family came to SF for a visit. I felt just as incensed about that as well because Sh***n felt it was her right to camp out here.

I was also more than annoyed at my white former co-worker who felt she could live in Canada as an illegal and felt entitled to their socialized health care. "Surprise" is what she got when Canada would not bend over for her. So, the nasty woman is back "home" in the Sunshine State because the Canadians refused to hand out the freebies to an illegal alien.

Many of this country's ancestors *did* jump ship as one member mentioned. That does not mean that we need to suddenly not have laws due to what others did anywhere from 50 to 200 years ago.

illegal is illegal and people who break the law are criminals, and shouldnt be rewards for breaking the law

*********************************************************************************************************************************
I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

Thank-you, Mercurior. There should be no rewards for breaking the law. Why do the illegal immigrants get a free pass after blatantly breaking our laws and laughing in our faces? Most of us certainly do not want to reward our own homegrown breeders, regardless of skin colour, so I cannot understand why some would want to throw all sorts of American bennies to illegals and their offspring. It makes no sense.

We need to take care of our people before doing so with the rest of the world. I do feel that the "Send us your poor..." statement on the Statue of Liberty was the worst thing that could have been done. Everyone uses that when they want to demand "rights" for illegals or expect the United States to take on the entire world's people. If the feeling is there is enough $$$ for all, why don't we just stick them all in Texas since the religious right feels that all of the world's population can fit there? Or, better yet, those who are sticking up for the illegals can take them into their own home or neighbourhoods and pay the bills for these people.

Anyone who is complaining of how many of us feel about our Mexican and Central American "visitors" should have to live next-door to them as Sprogless and I have done or be forced to deal with them in the other ways as well. When a person does not deal with the problem, it is easy to point fingers at the rest of us. I notice many of the finger pointers may only deal with illegals as underpaid domestics in their own homes & businesses or make money off of them in other ways.

I, too, used to be aghast at my grandmother's attitude towards them when I was a teen and young adult. I called her a "racist", too. However, my nirvana about these illegals wore off once I grew up and had to live in the real world among them rather than in my mother's or grandfather's suburban homes in Marin County or the San Francisco East Bay...both of which got full of the illegals in certain areas after a bit of time. Good neighbourhoods turned to sh*t.

I still say there wouldn't be so many folks coming here if they knew companies and people wouldn't be hiring them. Follow the money, jail the employers and you'll see the illegal situation dry up pretty damn quick.

Sprogless,
You may think you know what every single individual "illegal" thinks, but you don't. Sorry, but I don't believe you are psychic. Oh, and I never said I was an expert on the subject, I just said not all of them are horribly bad people. You misunderstood me. And I don't believe my opinion "would change" about it, because I'm not racist...never have been, never will be. No, I've never been hit by an "illegal", but I have been hit by someone where it was impossible to get money from them, and I didn't complain. I doubt I would complain any more if it were an "illegal". I know you're not an "illegal", I'm not as stupid as you think I am. I was saying it to make a point. I've read the entire thread. Racism just pisses me off, so I have to respond like I do. Intelligence does not leave, it always overcomes the unintelligent. I AM NOT calling you unintelligent or stupid. I'm just telling you what I believe, and I believe we are entitled to opinions. If racism is your opinion, that's fine. I just don't agree with it. Sorry.


TimsGirl, You've now accused me of being an illegal, a psychic, a racist, and you even claim to know what I believe. So, according to you, I believe in racism. How would you know that? Where did I say anything even remotely close to that? Show me the quote. Bottom line, I don't have to resort to insults to make my point, simply because I'm informed, and know the subject. You said that I misunderstood you, but I assure you that I didn't. Your lack of information, and petty insults left no room for misunderstanding. I never said you were stupid, ignorant,or unintelligent. YOU said that. You've also claimed that I "know what every single illegal" thinks. I never said that. If I did, then show it to me. Everyone here, except you, seems to understand that I'm referring to illegals as a whole. I'm not singling anyone out, whether it's Mexicans, Salvadorans, etc. And I also know enough about the subject that I can provide proof of what I've said. Can you say the same?

First of all, why can't the "illegal aliens" have the same rights you do? Being born on a piece of land does not give you more rights than someone born on the other side of an imaginary line drawn up by men with no knowledge of how the people in that area are living. If you ever want to be free, you are OBLIGATED to give the other person the same rights you allot yourself. I don't see why you can pick who has a right to be in the so called "land of the free". Why is it that when YOUR ancestors came here, it was okay to just have a three day waiting period and then they were citizens? Now it takes upwards of ten YEARS to become a citizen of this great FREE country of ours. This reaks of the governmental police state mentality that the people who pound the pulpit about illegal immigration have. Why not just abolish taxes and then you won't have to worry about paying for an "illegal baby" to live here, Oh wait, you think we NEED those precious taxes for the government to run. Why don't you take your hands out of my wallet and let me voluntarily support what I believe in. If you are child-free, why in the world would you support welfare in any way? Forcing someone to pay you at the point of a gun is anti-freedom. And since you love to pull out the legal card, here's an excerpt from Marc Stevens regarding the fact that there is no such thing as an illegal alien, or a citizen for that matter:

There’s an incredible amount of energy expended on the subject of so-called "illegal aliens." These are men, women and children who allegedly are not in the "country" "legally." People who think they’re "citizens" believe physical force may be used against "illegal aliens" to cage them and send them back to their "country." This use of physical violence is called "deportation." One of the biggest complaints about these so-called "illegals" is how much they cost "citizens" and "taxpayers" in welfare and other "social programs." However, just as it’s a myth there’s a "country" or "nation" called the "United States," there’s no such thing as an "illegal alien." They’re all part of the government hoax.


To prove there’s no such thing as an "illegal alien," one needs to examine what a "nation" or "country" is. A "nation," such as the pretended "United States," is supposed to be a "voluntary association of individuals." The mere fact physical violence is used to "deport" so-called "illegals" contradicts the professed "voluntary" nature of a "nation."


A "nation" is composed of "citizens," and a "citizen" is supposed to be a member of a political body ("nation") who owes a duty of allegiance in return for a duty of protection. These two "duties" are the only things separating men who are "citizens" from men who are "illegal aliens."


Do these alleged "duties" exist and if so, exactly how were they created?


Is the "protection" offered by the "United States government" offered on a take-it-or-leave-it basis like other services? No, of course not. "Citizen" is not synonymous with customer. Customers, unlike "citizens," have the choice to say no to a particular service or product without being threatened and killed. You accept and pay for the services provided by men and women doing business as a "state" or be murdered:


"The only idea they have ever manifested as to what is a government of consent, is this–that it is one to which everybody must consent, or be shot." No Treason: The Constitution of No Authority - Lysander Spooner.


It’s fundamental no "duty" or obligation is created by threats of violence and violence. This is one of the fatal flaws in statist theology. Men and women calling themselves "government" violently impose themselves on victims called "citizens," and "ordain" scriptures called "laws" that define the way "government" does business as a crime. I love the following example of this quoted in my article The Government Hoax:


"racketeer. The organized use of threats, coercion, intimidation, and violence to compel the payment for actual or alleged services of arbitrary or excessive charges under the guise of membership dues, protection fees, royalties, or service rates. United States v McGlone (DC Pa) 19 F Supp 285, 286." Ballentine’s Law Dictionary, page 1051.


This describes exactly how men and women calling themselves a "state," "nation" and "government" operate.


Now if "duties" and obligations are not created by violence, then there’s no "duty" to protect anyone and there is no "duty" of allegiance. These are the only two things separating men who are "citizens" from men who are "illegal aliens" and neither one exists.


Because neither "duty" exists there are no "citizens" and no "nation." It then follows there is no such thing as an "illegal alien." The only "officially recognized" "legal" status with any existence is called "res nullius" meaning: "The property of no one." Ballentine’s Law Dictionary, page 1105. This is why the very idea of a "free government" is ridiculous. Because human beings are not property there can be no valid "government" as "govern" means control and control implies ownership:


"The right of absolute and irresponsible dominion is the right of property, and the right of property is the right of absolute, irresponsible dominion. The two are identical; the one necessarily implying the other." No Treason: The Constitution of No Authority - Lysander Spooner.


The "illegal" problem is classic diversion: instead of focusing on the real problem, viz., men and women violently controlling other men and women ("government," slavery etc.), the focus is diverted to non-existent "illegal aliens." Men and women pretending to be a "state" steal money from their victims (pretended "citizens") and give it to other men, women and children (pretended "illegals"). Instead of refusing to be victims and not permitting their money to be stolen, the victims only complain the people stealing their money shouldn’t give it away. Focusing on the non-existent "illegals" instead of the robbery only gives the violent men and women pretending to be a "state" legitimacy.


It is tantamount to a bank being robbed and the bank manager’s only complaint is the robber buys crack with the money. "Hey, don’t buy crack! That’s stupid. You should buy more guns and soldiers so you can steal more money."


It seems irrational to complain how stolen money is being used. When money is stolen the only relevant issue is that it was stolen, not what the anti-social parasite is doing with it.


While "illegal aliens" are not real, violent anti-social men and women pretending to be "states" are. Buying into the illusion there are "states" and "nations" only diverts attention from what these professional parasites are doing i.e., killing, stealing and lying


So, if you don't want to read through all that, just answer these questions:

Why can't "illegals" have the same rights you do?

Why do you believe it's okay to take money from me at the point of a gun?

Why do you support a welfare system that allows the people who abuse it by having as many children as they can exist?

This isn't about illegal aliens, this is about basic god given freedom, and you seem to oppose that. Just remember, if you take someone's freedoms away, it can come back and happen to you.

TimsGirl139 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> First of all, why can't the "illegal aliens" have
> the same rights you do? Being born on a piece of
> land does not give you more rights than someone
> born on the other side of an imaginary line drawn
> up by men with no knowledge of how the people in
> that area are living. If you ever want to be free,
> you are OBLIGATED to give the other person the
> same rights you allot yourself. I don't see why
> you can pick who has a right to be in the so
> called "land of the free". Why is it that when
> YOUR ancestors came here, it was okay to just have
> a three day waiting period and then they were
> citizens? Now it takes upwards of ten YEARS to
> become a citizen of this great FREE country of
> ours. This reaks of the governmental police state
> mentality that the people who pound the pulpit
> about illegal immigration have. Why not just
> abolish taxes and then you won't have to worry
> about paying for an "illegal baby" to live here,
> Oh wait, you think we NEED those precious taxes
> for the government to run. Why don't you take
> your hands out of my wallet and let me voluntarily
> support what I believe in. If you are child-free,
> why in the world would you support welfare in any
> way? Forcing someone to pay you at the point of a
> gun is anti-freedom. And since you love to pull
> out the legal card, here's an excerpt from Marc
> Stevens regarding the fact that there is no such
> thing as an illegal alien, or a citizen for that
> matter:
>
> There’s an incredible amount of energy expended on
> the subject of so-called "illegal aliens." These
> are men, women and children who allegedly are not
> in the "country" "legally." People who think
> they’re "citizens" believe physical force may be
> used against "illegal aliens" to cage them and
> send them back to their "country." This use of
> physical violence is called "deportation." One of
> the biggest complaints about these so-called
> "illegals" is how much they cost "citizens" and
> "taxpayers" in welfare and other "social
> programs." However, just as it’s a myth there’s a
> "country" or "nation" called the "United States,"
> there’s no such thing as an "illegal alien."
> They’re all part of the government hoax.
>
>
> To prove there’s no such thing as an "illegal
> alien," one needs to examine what a "nation" or
> "country" is. A "nation," such as the pretended
> "United States," is supposed to be a "voluntary
> association of individuals." The mere fact
> physical violence is used to "deport" so-called
> "illegals" contradicts the professed "voluntary"
> nature of a "nation."
>
>
> A "nation" is composed of "citizens," and a
> "citizen" is supposed to be a member of a
> political body ("nation") who owes a duty of
> allegiance in return for a duty of protection.
> These two "duties" are the only things separating
> men who are "citizens" from men who are "illegal
> aliens."
>
>
> Do these alleged "duties" exist and if so, exactly
> how were they created?
>
>
> Is the "protection" offered by the "United States
> government" offered on a take-it-or-leave-it basis
> like other services? No, of course not. "Citizen"
> is not synonymous with customer. Customers, unlike
> "citizens," have the choice to say no to a
> particular service or product without being
> threatened and killed. You accept and pay for the
> services provided by men and women doing business
> as a "state" or be murdered:
>
>
> "The only idea they have ever manifested as to
> what is a government of consent, is this–that it
> is one to which everybody must consent, or be
> shot." No Treason: The Constitution of No
> Authority - Lysander Spooner.
>
>
> It’s fundamental no "duty" or obligation is
> created by threats of violence and violence. This
> is one of the fatal flaws in statist theology. Men
> and women calling themselves "government"
> violently impose themselves on victims called
> "citizens," and "ordain" scriptures called "laws"
> that define the way "government" does business as
> a crime. I love the following example of this
> quoted in my article The Government Hoax:
>
>
> "racketeer. The organized use of threats,
> coercion, intimidation, and violence to compel the
> payment for actual or alleged services of
> arbitrary or excessive charges under the guise of
> membership dues, protection fees, royalties, or
> service rates. United States v McGlone (DC Pa) 19
> F Supp 285, 286." Ballentine’s Law Dictionary,
> page 1051.
>
>
> This describes exactly how men and women calling
> themselves a "state," "nation" and "government"
> operate.
>
>
> Now if "duties" and obligations are not created by
> violence, then there’s no "duty" to protect anyone
> and there is no "duty" of allegiance. These are
> the only two things separating men who are
> "citizens" from men who are "illegal aliens" and
> neither one exists.
>
>
> Because neither "duty" exists there are no
> "citizens" and no "nation." It then follows there
> is no such thing as an "illegal alien." The only
> "officially recognized" "legal" status with any
> existence is called "res nullius" meaning: "The
> property of no one." Ballentine’s Law Dictionary,
> page 1105. This is why the very idea of a "free
> government" is ridiculous. Because human beings
> are not property there can be no valid
> "government" as "govern" means control and control
> implies ownership:
>
>
> "The right of absolute and irresponsible dominion
> is the right of property, and the right of
> property is the right of absolute, irresponsible
> dominion. The two are identical; the one
> necessarily implying the other." No Treason: The
> Constitution of No Authority - Lysander Spooner.
>
>
> The "illegal" problem is classic diversion:
> instead of focusing on the real problem, viz., men
> and women violently controlling other men and
> women ("government," slavery etc.), the focus is
> diverted to non-existent "illegal aliens." Men and
> women pretending to be a "state" steal money from
> their victims (pretended "citizens") and give it
> to other men, women and children (pretended
> "illegals"). Instead of refusing to be victims and
> not permitting their money to be stolen, the
> victims only complain the people stealing their
> money shouldn’t give it away. Focusing on the
> non-existent "illegals" instead of the robbery
> only gives the violent men and women pretending to
> be a "state" legitimacy.
>
>
> It is tantamount to a bank being robbed and the
> bank manager’s only complaint is the robber buys
> crack with the money. "Hey, don’t buy crack!
> That’s stupid. You should buy more guns and
> soldiers so you can steal more money."
>
>
> It seems irrational to complain how stolen money
> is being used. When money is stolen the only
> relevant issue is that it was stolen, not what the
> anti-social parasite is doing with it.
>
>
> While "illegal aliens" are not real, violent
> anti-social men and women pretending to be
> "states" are. Buying into the illusion there are
> "states" and "nations" only diverts attention from
> what these professional parasites are doing i.e.,
> killing, stealing and lying
>
>
> So, if you don't want to read through all that,
> just answer these questions:
>
> Why can't "illegals" have the same rights you do?
>
> Why do you believe it's okay to take money from me
> at the point of a gun?
>
> Why do you support a welfare system that allows
> the people who abuse it by having as many children
> as they can exist?
>
> This isn't about illegal aliens, this is about
> basic god given freedom, and you seem to oppose
> that. Just remember, if you take someone's
> freedoms away, it can come back and happen to you.

BRAVO TIMSGIRL

Very well said.