1121 - kid verses money...

Huh judging by those breederific responses one has to assume that the article got to them because it is all true....The person who wrote that article was only stating facts.Seems some parents out there cant handle the truth.


why would that lady become so nasty towards the other woman and say "she dosent deserve to have any children" because she dared work out the costs associated with having them?

that is alot more sensible and responsible than the loosers out there that just have them anyway regardless if they can afford them or not.

It really got to the moos didint it - you can tell and I just love it.It shows how pathetic they really are.

***I cannot believe in this day and age that people actually sit down and figure how much it's going to cost them to have a family.***

Spoken like a true breeder! Real parents would consider how they would be able to provide for any kid(s). The analysis is also for the benefit of any children, but the breeders don't get it.

Why should they worry about how much it's gonna cost? The guv'mint will pay for the brats, doncha know?

Seriously...how is bringing up a child in poverty, or in a stressful enviroment of crashing debt good for anyone? Love is all well and good, but it won't pay the rent of put food on the table.

Oops, I forgot...they'll just pick OUR pockets to do that!

Stupid, selfish breeders!

The pitiful thing is that many people are basically very stupid! I have heard similar comments when I have mentioned the costs of children. One former co-worker...well, actually a former manager...called me "cold & cruel" when I mentioned Back in the Day (1987) that costs was one of the reasons I wanted a tubal to keep from having kids. The main reason is that...I just don't want children, period! It would not matter if I was independently wealthy and did not have to work. My uterus is not for sale!

I am not a materialistic person since I place little value on material things other than having a reliable car to get from Point A to Point B as well as earning enough $$$$ to pay the costs of living. However, I feel it is foolish for a person in economic peril to have a child. If you can't feed them, don't breed them! At my new job, a co-worker with four kids who are with other caretakers is pregnant with Kid #5. Her boyfriend, who she calls her husband, quit his job. They are staying with a cousin who is about to be evicted. God...the list goes on.

Sad thing is this co-worker is a sweet girl. Her life has been far from easy -- first baby at 13. What does that tell you? This poor person has probably never learned any healthy boundaries and most likely was abused. No one with any sane upbringing has babies at thireen years old! So, this young woman has not known of anything other than poverty and breeding. I do not approve of what she is doing but do send good thoughts her way for something better. I don't get any joy from seeing suffering even if it is at someone's own hand.

You guys are all so right. The breeders are just pissed off because we know where they tie their goat. Planning financially for a child is called proactive life planning. Smart thing to do. It's very stupid to just breed and breed because the bible tells you it's right thing to do, when you have no means to support the kid. If there were no welfare, state aid, etc., I think a lot more people would be smarter with their birth control. I read MP Dunleavy's articles all the time, I think she's great. Hopefully she'll make the right choice and stay childfree, not for the reasons blasted by the breeders but for the smart reasons.

KFLL, you are right how breeders are angry that we are not suffering along with them. As my late-granddad used to always say, "Misery enjoys company." Mary Summer Rain, a new age author who is a parent, stated how those with children do believe that a person, especially a woman, should not "get away" with not suffering the hells of parenting - such as not having enough money to do what one wants or not have the onus of dealing with children. If parenthood was such a wonderful life, parents/society/religious leaders would not have to push the idea of breeding onto those of us who want a different life. Let's face it, motherhood does suck.

Tell a breeder that youre retiring early and you see their faces sag and see the look in their eyes then if they think it is all worth it. "well, I guess you can afford it, you guys have no kids."

Funny, they aren't protesting how great their kids are to me then, or so bold to say it is cruel to calculate the costs of kyds then.

I wish I had a camera to catch those looks on their faces and could show it to them and even their kyds. Where is all their unconditional love then?

Actions do speak louder than words.

What always gets me is how many people with kids somehow believe that the childfree are "rolling in the dough" and live lives filled with yachts or fast cars. Some of the CF do have a more luxurious life; however, I have met many people with children and/or stepchildren who live in the gated communities in houses with master bedrooms almost as large as my apartment.

The mothers' of the breeders' also think their 'little darlins' are going to make 'good mothers' even if the stupid moo has little to do with their babyee. Like the stupid moo really cares about their shitling as long as there is day care.

It's amazing that the breeders are all calling the author "selfish" for daring to point out the truth of how expensive it is to have kids. And all of them claim that children are more important than money, blah blah blah. The thing is: I bet if you asked their kids if they wished their parents had more money, (or if they wished thier parents had chosen money over more siblings) they'd probably all say yes.

Yeah, I noticed they all did miss the point of the article. It shows how short sighted breeders are--the author is actually agreeing with them at the end but they don't want to hear it because they are too busy being offending that she did the calculations in the first place.

the last paragraph and sentence ruined that article for me. I wonder why it still didn't make the breeders feel good about it.

How dare you rats spend any time thinking before you make decisions! What kind of boring sticks in the mud are you?!! Live EXTREME for once! Don't you know it's healthy to just jump into major life changing decisions without a moment's thought? I mean come on, new car? Just buy whatever is your favorite color, and be sure to get the fastest or biggest one! Leg amputation? Whatever, its all a lark! Wheee! Marrage? Ask everyone you meet, marry the first one who says yes! College degree? put all the possibilities on a board, throw a dart and go with what it hits! You must have a baby, cause that's what everyone does! Grab the nearest consenting member of the opposite sex and JUST DO IT...like Nike tells you to. Damn! You all so BOOOORING!

Feh, LMAO.

india_darshan: Your comment about author Mary Summer Rain was intriguing to me. How rare that someone who is a mother would say something like that.

Mary Summer Rain is just bitter because her parents gave her a stupid hippy name. She had no friends in school and had to make a baby to be her friend.

FEh,

that is exactly what I was thinking every time I started reading the breeders' replies.

Why are chyldren the only thing that people refuse to actually THINK about or PLAN for? I *want* one, so I will HAVE one!

These womben severely piss me off-I mean I can't believe I'm even giving this issue the time of day. The moral superiority oozes like puss from a blister. Some moo even wrote that Dunleavy's article shows cultural degradation. WTFF?? Cultures degrade due to the cycle of poverty-you overindulged, undereducated barnyard breeder.

I doubt none of them had to watch their parents struggle growing up like I did. It's really painful when you're a kid and your mom's crying because you may loose your house, or your dad has to pawn books you loved for gas money.

If they did experience life in this realm called reality with the rest of us, they'd understand the need to plan. Obviously they didn't, or they've always been piss-poor & have no problem relying on the gubbermint.

I hope all their wonderfull precious "gifts from gawd" become strippers and drug dealers all get sterilized and become CF.

I had to laugh when I read the post from the mother of four kids who advised people to "get used to doing with less" to afford children - including driving used cars, not having a big screen TV, getting creative with hamburger and flank steak, get very handy with home repairs, etc.

Guess what? My DH and I, who are CF, have been doing all those things since we married almost nine years ago!

Our careers are not high paying, and we absolutely do not want to get into deep debt, live paycheck-to-paycheck and finance everything with credit cards. We are making the sacrifice to live more simply than many people do because we chose our careers for benefits other than high salaries. One of those benefits is having plenty of time outside of work to spend time with each other and pursue hobbies and interests.

Meanwhile, my younger sister and her husband have three small children, and they will have their fourth child this summer. Sis hasn't worked since the two oldest children (twins) were born seven years ago, and BIL's salary isn't more more than DH's and my combined salary.

Yet they are spending WAY MORE MONEY each month than DH and I do. I know this because while my BIL brags about how much money he makes, Sis whines about how they "never seem to have any money."

Well, maybe that's because they live in a house that is twice as large and much newer than DH's and my 1,500-square-foot, 22-year-old house, so they have a much larger mortgage.

And maybe it's because they buy new, large, expensive minivans and cars every few years, while DH and I drive new or used compact cars that we keep for several years after we pay them off. His car is seven years old, mine is eight years old, but we take care of them and they look and run like new.

It's also because Sis and BIL are always buying the latest electronic equipment and new toys for their kids, and eating out all the time, even though Sis is a SAHM mom and could cook less expensive meals at home if she wanted too. My DH and I, meanwhile, limit the amount of stuff we buy (partly because our home is small and we hate clutter) and cook at home most of the time after shopping carefully and looking for bargains at the grocery store. We also think it's healthier for us to eat at home most of the time.

And our entertainment is very simple. We're content to just go for a long walk somewhere and get coffee or ice cream on one of our "dates," instead of eating out all the time. Restaurants, particularly nice ones, are special treats, not everyday or every week treats as they are for Sis and BIL.

So, mother of four - don't tell me that it's easy to afford FOUR children (!!!) if you simply do with less! My DH and I have done with less FOR YEARS, and we still don't know how we could afford one child, much less four.

I suppose we could drain our savings and do without the repairs and renovations that our house needs and that we want to do - we're enjoying fixing up an older home that has character. And I guess we could eliminate our once-a-year vacation, which is usually not that expensive. But we don't want children of our own enough to do that; we're content to be aunt and uncle to six - soon to be seven - nieces and nephews.

Sis and BIL, on the other hand, never planned to have four children - they readily admit that our newest nephew was a "surprise." (I don't know why she didn't have a tubal after having three kids - that was the number they had planned on having.)

Sis whines enough now about how they never have any money, despite having a big house, new cars and all these things, and now she says they'll have to move to a larger, and probably more expensive, house next year to make room for the new baby. I'm not looking forward to hearing her whine about her finances even more than she does now!

Lynn, you sound just like my DH & I, with our modest house & older cars. Unlike the breeder brains think, we're actually really frugal with our $ and don't spend lavishly either.

It's amazing how people like your SIL & brother always seem to find cash for unneccessary things like big screen TVs & new minivans. I work for psychologists and they have many married, childed couples that come in for counseling. They all make six figures but their credit is maxed out & they're in enormous debt! Yet they all have million dollar homes, take off on vacations on a whim, and then declare bankruptcy!

And moving into a bigger house because of a baby? C'm on-last time I looked, babys were small and didn't take up much space! Can't they convert a walk-in closet or something? Gawd, they're so spoiled & wasteful! It makes me feel even better about being CF!

Nour, it was enlightening to read Mary Summer Rain's support for the CF. I worked with a woman years ago who asked why I chose a life with no kids. Peggy was very nice about it. After I told her my reasons, Peggy admitted that she would not have had her son had she to do it over even though her boy was a good kid whom she loved. I respected the lady for being so honest when many parents cannot even admit this to themselves.

inda-darshan, my mother is honest like that, too. Although many will parents will lie even to themselves.

DH and I don't make much money. I work for a non-profit organization and he works for a small company. We don't even have much for a mortgage, that's why we have to rent a very small one-bed room apartment and save money for our yearly international trips. Why the hell would we want to bring a brat in our lives and be broke? It never made sense to me why people who are struggling financially have a damn child! We rather struggle and save money on trips then spend it on a stupid brat! It is sure not worth having the dreaded life a parent. We much rather go on a trip every year and have the great memories and experience of another culture then give this all up for sleepless nights, no freedom, no privacy, no spontaneity, changing poopy diapers, hearing shreaking and crying all the time, dealing with a misbehaved brat, throwing money out he window on daycare, clothes, toys, running like a slave at a whim whenever the brat needs you, etc... Co-workers from work have told me that they spend about US$10,000 a year on childcare! If we had to choose, we prefer a billion times the CF life!! The stupid poor breeders can have their misery, we don't want it!

Freedom, you bring up another good point on this particular topic -- paying rent on a less expensive one-bedroom apartment. Many people with children also slave away to pay an oppressive mortgage all to fulfill the "American dream" of owning a home. The childfree can be prey to that as well.

I have a former friend who had to be a part of that "dream". Right after she gets a hefty raise which she more than worked for, she goes out and gets into a 5-year auto loan. Then, she and her husband buy a house with a $1400 per month payment. She makes more money but is struggling more than when she earned less in pay.

My ex-pal complains how she only has $25 left for spending money after she makes her payouts each week for bills. I have a very hard time feeling sorry for her since my spouse and I live on so much less than her family yet we can enjoy life a little more since we don't have a child, car payments, or a heavy mortgage.

Her daughter from her teenage marriage used to be an alright kid -- that is saying a lot due to how I feel about most children! After her mom started making more money, the 7-year-old became a brat since she got used to getting whatever she wanted. One day, the kid started boo-hooing at the mall when my friend told her that she could not afford to buy the "Build-A-Bear" toy that day due to other expenses. Never mind that the brat just had a birthday party the week before with a new bike and she just got all sorts of junk to eat at the mall that day.

Many smug "homeowners" claim how I am throwing my money away by paying rent while they smugly say how they own that home. I remind these people that they are paying a 30-50 year loan to the bank for that home. I have a decent place to live and only have to worry about calling the office if something breaks. I don't have to worry about where I will get the money if the water heater breaks or the toilet is overflowing.

India - Amen!! I think homeowning is overrated. Think of all the taxes you throw away and yes, having to pay for stuff every time something breaks. My husband and I were going to purchase a townhome, but the taxes were almost what we pay in rent now! I also find the thought of a mortgage almost as oppressive as the thought of having children - a long-term commitment with a questionable outcome in the end.

Thank-you, GreenGrass! I almost wondered if I would be "flamed" by those who are buying houses for starting this topic. Condos have become the rage in my area. The sheeple are lining up to buy what were basically apartments. The condo "owner" does not own the land or the structure but is only paying the mortgage to "own" the airspace inside. Then...a monthly fee is paid to the association for the upkeep on the property. Like you, I also view home"ownership" as a horrible longterm commitment with a questionable end in sight.

One thing I forgot to mention about townhouses and condos is the issue of bd neighbours. I had a condo where I used to live so the experience is very real. Many condo buyers end up renting out there units just as they are doing in this area. At first, it is not so bad. Once the neighbourhood goes "bad", the landlords become less picky about who to rent to once the pickings of renters are scarce. This area saw a glut of condos for sale back in the early 90's. Many realtors would not list a condo for a seller since these things did nothing more than take up space in the listings. Condos went as cheap as $20 grand back then. People were desperate to sell to get out of a building that became another ghetto.