Talking about feminism

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yurble
I am probably close to first-wave. I was raised by a first-wave feminist and to be honest I have never understood what the different waves are supposed to be (I never took women's studies).

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yurble
Ah, I always thought of the suffragettes as being, well, suffragettes, not "first wave feminists." So I guess I was raised by a second-wave feminist. I think I've opted for the buffet. I agree with the premise of equality but I don't think the right to vote goes far enough. I don't think that the world would magically be a better place if women were in charge, or that women have some inherent nurturing quality. I don't believe in 'sisterhood'; women can be assholes too. But as I said, I'm also not keen on pole dancing as a form of empowerment.

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lilin_unite

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yurble
I'd be curious in knowing where you depart from first wave feminism, if you don't mind sharing (perhaps in another thread). So few women that I meet want to be seen as feminists, which makes it difficult to have a conversation on the subject.

Those that do want the label of feminism actually mean femoonism (all they care about are breast-feeding anywhere they like and increasing the number of perks that moos get) or the advertiser's vision of feminism wherein any choice made by a woman is feminist because a woman made it (these are the kinds who want all the rights and none of the responsibility).

Mostly, just updating it for the modern issues and areas of inquiry that currently exist, which are more sociological in nature. So it's a completely different *platform* than original first-wave feminism, but it's the same fundamental ethos underlying it, which I feel has been lost from modern mainstream feminist (and most of the fringes too).

Yes. This wave of feminism is all about "mooism" and "everyone gets a gold star" (if a woman does it, it must be feminist and good). It find it intellectually insulting to everyone, honestly. It reduces women to children themselves, who can't be expected to understand things like common decency or public manners. In some cases, like divorce/custody court, it makes men responsible for these helpless women, and erodes their own right to their own lives.

I want nothing to do with it.

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Ketchup
Yurble, about the "pole dancing = empowerment" idea - about ten years ago I read E*rica J*ong's F*ear of Flying trilogy (from the late 70s-early 80s). I couldn't believe that it was considered a feminist novel, seemingly just because she wrote graphically about her sex life, and that wasn't common in its time, or at least in the way she wrote about it. In the book, she cheated on her husband with some stranger, got bored with him, and at the end of the first book ended up going back to him because she obviously needed a mayun to take care of her. Then, in the next book she ends up cheating on him again, leaving him for a younger guy and having a loaf "because it's what you do". Yeah, really feminist But she is considered some kind of feminist hero for her works, so I don't know.

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yurble
I read the first book and I dunno, maybe it was empowering at the time, but there's no way it can compare to something like The Well of Loneliness. The character was all Me Me Me and I couldn't connect with her at all, despite the fact that I am in favor of knowing what you want sexually and seeking it.

At the same time, I couldn't get behind Dworkin and her whole idea of it being a form of oppression.

I think Ariel Levy provides a sort of middle ground; Female Chauvinist Pigs put into words what I think is wrong with many of these recent ideas of (certain type of) male-fantasy focused sex acts as subversive empowerment.

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lilin_unite

Some women choose those professions because they enjoy them. Some simply don't mind it, but love the money. That doesn't make them feminist or not feminist for doing so, but women are choosing these professions, and some of them actually do enjoy it.

Rather than spending our efforts trying to eradicate them, and implying that women are both helpless and non-sexual, we should be spending our efforts on things designed to ensure women enter these professions fully voluntarily and have adequate protection while on the job.

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blondie
If adult women choose to get into the business that is their choice, but there is no need for specific protections for them, and that actually does imply that they are helpless and in need of specific oversight. If it is across the board for all porn actors (I do think most is acting, so women in the business don't have to be sexual or enjoy the acts, they just have to pretend to be) then that is fine but it should be standardized within the industry. They do get tested and such now but with all the amateur porn and weird stuff coming out people are choosing to take significant risks to get the most hits. That's their choice and it's a shame if anyone is being exploited, male or female.