The "nice guy" argument

I cannot understand or agree with most of the stuff that this "nice guy" says, so I suppose that I am one of the complete jerks out there, according to this article.

http://thoughtcatalog.com/leo-steven/2014/04/dear-girls-who-are-finally-ready-to-date-nice-guys-we-dont-want-you-anymore/

After reading this stuff, it left me wondering, what kind of disturbing life does this writer live and what kind of standards does he live by? I guess l live in my own world and my views are very different. I am a guy and I am really shocked that there are men who think like this guy in the article.

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Thought Catalog

You had your chance on our first (and only) date. I held the door open for you and bought you dinner at that 5-star restaurant you so slyly worked into the conversation. You looked amazing and I went all out to impress you. You walked through the door I held open for you without a thank you or really any acknowledgement of my little gesture.

Holy crap! Really? Are you kidding me? Someone pinch me, this has got to be some kind of joke.

Ok, she "had her chance"? What? With you? Really? How do you know? Relationships are 2 way streets. If she was not interested, there were no "chances".

Dude, did she specifically say that she wanted to go to a five star place? Did she say she will not go unless you take her to the most expensive place out there? You did not actually fall for it, did you? If you do not know her very well, why are you taking her there? Are you that much of a sucker?

You held the door open and she did not praise you for it? I know women who weigh all of 90 pounds, wear high heels and are not in a shape to push open some of the very heavy spring loaded doors. I do not expect anything in return for opening a heavy door for a woman who is half my weight.

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Thought Catalog
I asked you about your hopes and dreams and listened to you bitch about your ex-boyfriend as you ordered that $100 bone-in ribeye and the wine with the fancy vintage you just had to try.

Why do you give a shit what she bitches about? Her ex is her problem. When you take someone out, that is the chance that you take - sometimes they turn out to be a complete train wreck. If she is not what you are looking for, move along.

$100 dinner? So what. You went to a 5 star restaurant. What did you expect? For her to sit there and drink water? Dude, are you alright? If you take someone to an expensive place, it costs money. If you do not like it, do not take her there. Pick a less expensive place instead.

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Though Catalog
I was wonderful to you, I was a gentleman. I treated you with respect, like a lady deserves to be treated. I enjoyed your company and you had my full attention. I didn’t expect anything in return except a chance to win your heart.

Who are you fooling? Yourself? Maybe, because you are not fooling me. You WERE trying to score and it did not work. Why is this such a tragedy? Ever tried to find someone else?

Look, if you want a lap dance in return for some money, strip joints are everywhere. Want to get more? You keep bragging that you got all this money, maybe pay a visit to a cat house in Nevada or something. By the way, can I ask, when was the last time you got laid? Why are you so sensitive? If she is so cruel as you say she is, why are you being so soft?

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Thought Catalog
I’m the man of your dreams, but you couldn’t see that.

Buddy, she is over you. Maybe has never been into you. What are you talking about?

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Thought Catalog
I’m stable, I’m a good provider

You are not mentally stable, you let small stuff upset you. Have you tried counseling?

Many women are not looking for a "provider". What century and country do you live in? In USA, many good quality women are making their own income. More women go to college than men and more women than ever hold high paying jobs. Dude, why are you chasing bottom of the barrel women? What is the matter with you?

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Thought Catalog
But now you’re ready to date me? Really? You’ll excuse me if I’m not jumping for joy. You’ve dissed me, rejected me, took advantage of me, dodged my goodnight kiss and couldn’t wait to get away from me. Now suddenly you want me? Sorry, I’m not buying it.

Who is exactly ready to date you when you are getting butthurt over some chick who did not want to date you? Like seriously?

If there is a woman who is ready to date, I am not sure it will work out. If you cannot accept the fact that things can go south at times, you may not be able to handle a relationship at the moment. Try getting some counseling, seriously.

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Thought Catalog
...I want marriage and kids in my future...

...I get it though, now that you’re on the downside of 30, the wrinkles are starting, the body is sagging and you have stretch marks and that c-section scar from pushing out that bad boy’s rugrat...

Sometimes it is a bad boy rug rat, sometimes it is a fool like you who got "lucky" and knocked her up. In either case, there is a sucker out there for every occasion. Some fool will yet again hook up with her.

Look, if she is not what you looking for, move along. There is more fish in the sea. You have mentioned that you yourself wanted to have kids. You would be the reason why women have stretch marks. So, you want to knock someone up and bitch about stretch marks too? Buddy, do you see where you are heading? You are building your own road to a city of huge disappointment.

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Thought Catalog
In your twenties you barely gave me the time of day. Meanwhile you were jumping in bed with any guy with a neck tattoo or a prison record.

Not all tattoos mean prison record. Many people just have tattoos as a form of art. Some people serve prison time for weed or something else stupid. There are many variables.

If she was jumping in bed with all these broke dick "bad boys", why are you taking her to very expensive places? Why are you "casting the pearls at the swine"?

Look, if this woman is so bad for chasing low life men, you are just as bad for chasing low life women. Look in the mirror, you are doing the same thing that she is doing. If you start having some standards and some values, maybe you will stop chasing women who do not value you and start meeting people who are at your level.

I find a lot of "nice guys" think they're owed something. I think that was the case with the guy I talked about in my last thread here in the patio. He was nice to me, often offered to go out of his way for me, but got mad if I didn't reward him with sexual favors. He doesn't want a relationship. He wants a sex kitten, and I refused to be that for him.

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"Be yourself, no matter what. Some will adore you, and some will hate everything about you, but who cares?

It's your life. Make the most out of it."

The comments are a sociology dissertation of stupid. Guys wanna fuck bitches, and do not realize the power they are giving to women. By getting them preggers. After she birfs the brat, she can dump him, and take half of his assets. Most of the he-men on there are too slow to understand that simple logic. Jeebus. The writer sounds like there are hordes of women in their 30-40's chasing him, floppy udders, stretch marks, et al. If he wants to snag a young, virginal, untouched woman, he needs to go fishing in mormon or amish ponds. Or import one from Iran, Saudi Arabia, any muslim nation. Maybe she'll make him a sandwich with a smile and a curtsy. :crz

Guys like this seem to believe that if they just go through the motions, the bitch will be his forever. This is the kind of person who will announce to everyone that he has a girlfriend if the first date wasn't a complete failure, or will make the "relationship" Facebook official. But if a woman is stupid enough to give the guy a second chance and possibly be in it for the long run, that fake respect will go right out the window. He might do things for her and take her places, but with the expectation of something in return. In other words, he won't treat his date because he likes her or because he cares about her. He'll treat her because he sees the relationship as an exchange with whatever set of tits will put up with him. Then they get all butt-hurt that they pulled out all the stops for her, but she still turned him down. Even if the guy has a horrible personality, he thinks he's entitled to a woman's attention and affection just because he bought her some wine and took her to Niagara Falls.

Those things can be fun, but they're just no substitute for real, genuine feelings. Women can sense when a guy is just throwing things at her and when he's really emotionally invested. Sometimes they respond in kind, sometimes they use it to their advantage. A woman who is just interested in a sugar daddy would be a good fit for this asshole, but someone who wants a real relationship won't give him a second glance.

Assholes like this guy think they're God's gift to women. Any little thing they do has to be met with praise and gratitude because lookit what nice guys they are, buying dinner for their dates and taking her to fun, romantic places. And now she has to love him for all those things he did for her and spent money on. My ex was and still is just like this, only with no money. I don't think he ever actually loved anyone - he just wanted someone to fuck and marry so he can say he's getting fucked and married.

Dood should consider a mail-order bride.

Most so-called nice guys are desperate assholes in disguise. They think that if they shower a woman with gifts and attention, she's automatically going to give it up for them.

What about the spark between two people? If it isn't there, it isn't there. End of story. And, why is it, that nice guys always bitch and moan about women? They are resentful and angry because their attitude is what gets them rejected. Women can smell desperation too, and it doesn't wear well on men, either.

Nice guys finish last for a reason. Nobody wants a desperate creep who thinks she'll throw her pussy at him because he bought her flowers, or held a door open for her.

Just from the quoted bits here, this reads as: "You agreed to go out with me once, now you owe me a shot at a relationship!"

How ridiculous. They had one date and he's talking about how he is her dream man? How the fuck would he know if he was her dream man? Is he a mind-reader? Or does he just think that highly of himself? He's telling her what's "good" for her? Uh no. Perfect reason for the woman to run screaming in the opposite direction, I think.

A first date is just that, a first date. It's a cursory "getting to know you a bit" outing. Then, if both wish to get to know the other more, it progresses to another date, etc. If there was only 1 date, obviously the woman found a reason why she didn't want to know more or spend anymore time with the guy. It happens. People don't always hit it off, even if there is an initial attraction. Maybe she was tired of him badgering her for "just one date" or something; and he thought he was such a great catch that she would fall head over heels, while she was humoring him to get him off her back? Who knows? He certainly wouldn't admit it.

Something seems fake about this anyway, like going to the really expensive place and hearing her bitch about her ex was made up to make him look good. It just seems too much "typical bad date" if you catch my drift. And even if it is real, I highly doubt that this woman is actually trying to hunt him down, desperate with regret that she missed her chance at true love. eyes2 I for one have no regrets about deciding not to date men I wasn't interested in. And guess what! I was also rejected from time to time, and while it can be disappointing, it's not the behavior of a healthy person to dwell on it or be hostile to the rejector. Dating is hard, so put on your big-boy undies and DEAL.

I've found that most "nice guys" tend to actually be misogynistic assholes with no respect for women as actual human beings. The ones who want kyds tend to be Og Dickwerks guys. They're usually socially retarded and feel entitled to compensation for their "kindness" in the form of sex. Women are not vending machines you can put kindness coins into and sex comes out. That's why I despise the notion of the "friend zone." It implies that women owe sexual favors to any men who do nice things for them, and have no right to not be interested in that man for sex or a relationship.

This is also harmful for other men, as it paints a picture of men being very simple or one dimensional, either you're a "nice guy" or a "bad boy," and there is no in between.

Nice guys take people places because they want to, not because they want the woman to owe them something. Nice guys don't dwell on single dates that go no where for years. Nice guys don't wish ill on a woman simply because she chose a man she thought she was more compatible with. Nice guys also don't have to tell everybody they are nice because they show it through their actions.

Women can smell desperation, it's worse than B.O. $100 steak dinners can't mask that stench. These guys think that women are dolls that don't have hopes and dreams of their own.

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"[GFG's pregnancy is] kind of like at the stables where that one dumb, ugly-ass mare broke out of her corral one day and got herself screwed by the equally fugly colt that was due to be gelded the same afternoon."- Shiny

The comments. Jesus. eyes2

Why are these people so angry?

And where are all these "bad boys"?

These are just angry, butthurt, loser neckbeards. And there are plenty of them out there, trust.

I've met many IRL. No, not to go out with - HELL NO! Just in the work place, friends of friends. One of my ExH's friends was just like this. EVERYTHING was someone else's fault.

Many will keep up a 'nice guy' front - in attempt to weasel their way in. Women will do it too. Anyone can put on a false front and BS you - you have to be careful.

The world is full of assholes. And people wonder why I'm single?

My husband is an actual nice guy. When we started dating, it was pretty clear to me early on that while I was solidly middle class as a single then, he was clearly earning far more than me. We did that early dating dance of him suggesting we eat at Chez Beyond My Budget followed by me saying I can't afford it followed by him saying that he was paying. After a few months of this dance, he just came out and told me that the places he was suggesting we go were places he also wanted to go, and that he wouldn't suggest them if he didn't want to pay for them.

He also asked if we could please stop with my insistence on not doing anything I couldn't pay for half of. This worked out well because the next month he invited me to go on a week long trip to an adults only resort in Mexico :-)

I am still trying to wrap my mind around all of this. Are there men out there who actually feel like that? Is the post on Thought Catalog a fake? Am I the only guy that feels that something is odd about this poster? Was this stuff written by a sane person?

So many good responses from posters on Bratfree who think the way that I do. I would like to add a few things:

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brown-eyed diamond
He was nice to me, often offered to go out of his way for me, but got mad if I didn't reward him with sexual favors.

It really puzzles me, why do "nice guys" feel that women should return "favors"? If they are looking for that kind of a "deal", why not just hire or find a woman who is looking for that kind of "arrangement"? There are plenty of men and women out there that are into casual hook-ups - why not pursue them? It is not difficult. In fact, it is way easier to find a casual hook-up than it is to find someone who wants some kind of a relationship. These "nice guys", are they really that ignorant to not know the difference?

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barren4ever
...Guys wanna fuck bitches...

The "nice guy" in this article, whether he realized it or not, he is ONLY going to attract gold diggers, bitches and users. In this article, "nice guy" was not only asking for one of those women, he would accept nothing less. He was demanding to find a somebody who would use him.

The woman who supposedly "turned him down" is not likely one of those users - she did not want him for anything that he had to offer, obviously. Would this "nice guy" even give a woman a chance that is only interested in men as people and not as wallets? Not likely, that "nice guy" is looking for punishment and sooner or later he will find it if he keeps pursuing the kind of women that he is wishing for.

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barren4ever
The writer sounds like there are hordes of women in their 30-40's chasing him, floppy udders, stretch marks, et al.

There are probably some available single moos out there, but just because they are on some dating website, it does not really mean that they are looking for the "nice guy" who wrote the article. But, having the kind of ego that the "nice guy" has, he probably thinks that they all want him. I got news for mr "nice guy" : not all single moos are desperate for his attention.

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barren4ever
...Or import one from Iran, Saudi Arabia, any muslim nation. Maybe she'll make him a sandwich with a smile and a curtsy...

I don't think that "nice guy" is as loaded as he thinks he is. If he is bitching about buying $100 dinner, he is broke as joke, in my book. $100 dinner is nothing. Cost of bringing someone from another country can quickly hit $20000 or even higher, because of legal fees, immigration fees and so on. All depends on each individual situation. It can also be done way cheaper, but this guy sounds very dumb - I am not sure that he knows what cheaper means. Then, he must be willing to support them when they get here. Buy them a car, buy bigger house, buy them all the necessities, pay for their education if needed. This guy needs to get back to putting his money back into piggy bank and stop buying people that he does not know $100 dinners. Something is telling me that the woman he took out, she never asked to go to a 5 star restaurant - his dump ass probably insisted on it. Idiot.

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cambion
Guys like this seem to believe that if they just go through the motions, the bitch will be his forever.

Approach that the "nice guy" has, that is the only kind of woman that he is going to get. He does not seem to show or have any value for women who like men for who they are. He seems to value women who value him for the amount of money that he is willing to spend. I see a gold digger coming in and draining him and I cannot blame the gold digger - dude is begging for one, literally.

It really grinds my gears when some men claim that an independent woman who supports herself is a "bitch". These men have it all backwards. Many women today support themselves because there are more women than men who have college education and in the long run, better paying jobs. Why is a person who takes time to earn their income is a "bitch"? Because she does not put on a fake smile and pretends to cherish you? Some of these men are having some revelations coming their way and I have a suspicion that they just may not like it when it hits them in the forehead. These guys are looking for a "damsel in distress" and they are going to get one that fakes it well and not because many women are like that but because if the "nice guy" keeps looking for one, just like anything else, he will find one.

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Cambion
Even if the guy has a horrible personality, he thinks he's entitled to a woman's attention and affection just because he bought her some wine and took her to Niagara Falls.

Any person who does "nice things" with an eagerly expectation of getting something in return, they will come off as control freak. Relationships based on eagerly expectations will not last and will not bring happiness. Is there a reason why divorce rate is at above 50%?

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Cambion
A woman who is just interested in a sugar daddy would be a good fit for this asshole, but someone who wants a real relationship won't give him a second glance.

Something is telling me that if the "nice guy" ever came across a genuine woman who is really into him for him, he'd shut her down - almost guaranteed. "Nice guy" has his judgement backwards.

I am not picking on men or women here. I think both genders can make very similar mistakes. Yes, there are women who make poor choices. Anybody is capable of complaining about failed relationships. But I think that there is a societal stigma or some kind of a stereotype that makes victims out of certain "nice guys". I am not blaming or pointing fingers at anyone, as myself, I have made my share of mistakes. It is just eventually I came to a solid conclusion that it was really me who was ultimately responsible for choosing to be around people who I could not have a healthy relationship with. According to some people, I am a "bad boy" for letting people be the way they want to be and seeking my own way to live my life instead.

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Cambion
Assholes like this guy think they're God's gift to women.

It does make me wonder, if the "nice guy" is such a high roller, why does he not have about 20 or 30 different women on "stand by", set up in his smart phone? Why not just dial up a few and see which ones are not doing anything at that moment? If the date with one went nowhere, why not just dial the next one on the list and see if she is up for a drink? Better yet, start texting as soon as it is clear that date has gone south. I know a few guys who roll like that and they are not even high rollers by any means. They also do not feel that they "finish last".

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Cambion
My ex was and still is just like this, only with no money. I don't think he ever actually loved anyone - he just wanted someone to fuck and marry so he can say he's getting fucked and married.

It may sound comical, but guys like your ex, if asked, they will not be able to clearly explain what it is that they are looking for in a marriage. He may simply be trying to fulfill some societal or more like his parents' expectations. He may feel that he needs to be married to meet some expectations. He may not even have an idea if that is what he is looking for or if that is what is going to make him happy. He may just be going along with the flow.

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Cambion
Dude should consider a mail-order bride

I personally do not think it is a very good idea. Women from other countries are people too. They too have their limits, desires, expectations and needs. While they may be in a bad situation where they are and they may grab on to whoever comes along to get them out of the hell hole that they are in, with time, she will gain her ground and she will begin to question the way she is getting controlled and treated. She may get education and find good income. Women do have rights once they are in the USA and they have a legal recourse against someone trying to bring them here and keeping them as servants. She can divorce the dude and courts will make the dude pay for the mail order bride to start a new life and other costs associated with it. Mail order brides are not for "nice guys" in this article. "Nice guys" are setting themselves up for a disappointment. It is one thing when people help each other because they love each other, but in a one way, self-serving type of a relationship, "global" relationships will not work.

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mumofsixbirds
They think that if they shower a woman with gifts and attention, she's automatically going to give it up for them.

I wonder, who teaches these "nice guys" this stuff? I am certain that these "nice guys" have tried this approach more than once and I am sure it did not work. Who keeps trying to keep doing the same thing and expect a different result? I wonder if they just like to waste money. Who knows.

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mumofsixbirds
What about the spark between two people? If it isn't there, it isn't there. End of story.

I was actually entertaining an idea of writing a long comment to the article, explaining to the "nice guy" how things are. But, you have placed it nicely in one line. Basically, there is no need to waste time or money on someone who is not "interested". Efforts will likely be much more appreciated by an "interested" party.

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mumofsixbirds
Nice guys finish last for a reason. Nobody wants a desperate creep who thinks she'll throw her pussy at him because he bought her flowers, or held a door open for her.

I found it to be true that many women don't ask for or expect a whole lot. If 2 people click, they just click. Flowers, dinners and all the other stuff is just an addition to something that is already there.

Here is the thing that I wish "nice guys" would take a note on. If $100 dinner is too much on a first date, what will be the norm if the relationship actually commences? Will he be able to afford more? Or, will his real self surface and will she be confused about who is she really with? Putting "best food forward" is not really a way to do it - how about just being who you are and if they don't like it then they are not the right person?

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Zzelda
And where are all these "bad boys"?

I have been called all kinds names, with a "bad boy" being on the nicer end of the spectrum.

I guess knowing what one wants out of life and not falling for other people's :BS is sinful in some people's minds. But hey, we all know our society likes to demonize CF folks, because we refuse to give in to people's pressures. :yeah

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mumofsixbirds
Most so-called nice guys are desperate assholes in disguise. They think that if they shower a woman with gifts and attention, she's automatically going to give it up for them.

What about the spark between two people? If it isn't there, it isn't there. End of story. And, why is it, that nice guys always bitch and moan about women? They are resentful and angry because their attitude is what gets them rejected. Women can smell desperation too, and it doesn't wear well on men, either.

Nice guys finish last for a reason. Nobody wants a desperate creep who thinks she'll throw her pussy at him because he bought her flowers, or held a door open for her.

That or they're complete pushovers. I had a borderline Nice Guy after me recently. Against my better judgement, did movie and lunch with him one time. No chemistry, although I didn't get icky vibes, either. Then he started texting me morning, noon, night and almost every hour in between and getting worried I wasn't okay or he'd said something wrong when I didn't reply right back. He was so thrilled that I was actually giving me the light of day that he drove me insane and away by being clingy. Fortunately he's backed off and I hardly ever hear from him anymore.

As for why so many of us go after the 'bad boys', well, the answer is that I'd much rather have an honest asshole than a lying asshole.

Self-professed "nice guys" are about as nice as moldy strawberries. Bin them and refuse to listen to their whining about their self-inflicted problems. They're toxic losers and many are abusive.

HBI has all the dish, don't miss this page!

"All too often we hear self-professed "Nice Guys" complaining about why they can't get a date, and whining that women just want to date jerks, etc. etc. The truth of the matter is that there are genuinely caring, compassionate, decent, fun guys out there who have NO TROUBLE meeting people, getting dates, and having relationships.

Unfortunately, many of the guys who DO have trouble, insist that women don't want them because they are "too Nice". These people who call themselves "Nice Guys" can't see that THEIR OWN behavior is the problem. That behavior either drives women away or attracts the WORST kind of predator - one who is manipulative and self-serving. Whether it is targeting women who are troubled to begin with, setting themselves up to be taken advantage of, or acting in a manipulative, patronizing or obsequious fashion, these guys sabotage themselves and often blame "all women" for their misfortunes.

This section is devoted to the guys who suffer from that self-professed "Nice Guy" affliction. Here is the place to find out why YOUR behavior isn't as "Nice" as you think it is..."

http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/ng.shtml

Edit: Original article and the stream of certifiable idiocy is just MRA craziness and nothing more. Call the paddy wagon and have these nutcases hauled off. I'm sick of hearing about these unstable men's problems in the dating world. Delusional, entitled, mentally ill assholes is all they are.

Having had many first dates with guys just like this, I can say for a fact they are all too real and common. Almost all of them are wanna breeds who had some sort of life plan to be married by X age and have their first (male) brat by Y age. These are guys who would bring up marriage plans but especially breeding plans before dessert was on the table on the first date. They would refuse my offer to pay for my part of dinner and then act like I owed them marriage and children. I don't really understand why I attracted this sort of man when I was always open about never wanting kids, not wanting to date people with kids and not even being sure I ever wanted marriage. I can't figure out if they thought I was bad girl to be tamed or because I was super responsible and independent. There are plenty of women and men who want the whole traditional lifescript. I don't understand why they don't chase after each other instead of people who don't want that.

I also seem to attract a lot of these guys. Apparently, they deem me to be "cute" and "innocent", which I guess translates into "can easily be manipulated" or something similar.

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"Be yourself, no matter what. Some will adore you, and some will hate everything about you, but who cares?

It's your life. Make the most out of it."

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brown-eyed diamond
I also seem to attract a lot of these guys. Apparently, they deem me to be "cute" and "innocent", which I guess translates into "can easily be manipulated" or something similar.

Having come out on the other side of these "nice guys" I can say the best thing I did was not give a shit. When I started viewing internet contacts or first dates as a few hours of my life everything got remarkably easier. This type of guy wants to make you so dependent on them for your entire future that you will do anything to keep them. The best thing I did for myself and my now marriage was decide I was perfectly fine on my own. That way, when marriage or long-term commitment came up, I was at the point that anybody who came into my life enhanced it or there was no reason to have them in my life to that degree. I also realize that as an introvert CF I am in the minority. My husband is a person who does better being married or in committed relationship while I can take or leave it. I don't have the answer for most of the world, but for me, the best thing I ever did was be myself and let the chips fall where they may when it came to personal relationships.

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Techie
The "nice guy" in this article, whether he realized it or not, he is ONLY going to attract gold diggers, bitches and users. In this article, "nice guy" was not only asking for one of those women, he would accept nothing less. He was demanding to find a somebody who would use him.

I think it's a cycle. "Nice Guy" bitches about women who won't return his favors, but if he gets with a gold digger, he'll bitch about how she's using him. Either way, he has something to bitch about, which I think is the actual goal. These guys are just whiny babies and want to always have something to moan about where they come out looking like the victim. "I did all these nice things for this girl, but she rejected me/took advantage of me! Waahhhh poor meeeee!" Then they can slog around, griping about what nice guys they are and how they get dragged through the mud, woe is them, they just want someone to love them.

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law
Self-professed "nice guys" are about as nice as moldy strawberries. Bin them and refuse to listen to their whining about their self-inflicted problems. They're toxic losers and many are abusive.

HBI has all the dish, don't miss this page!

HBI was exactly what came to my mind with the whole 'Nice Guy' thing.

I don't know ANY man who spends that kind of coin on a first date. Crapplebees, a bar for a couple of beers, Starbucks for a couple of coffees. More if the date goes well, easy to bail if there is nothing there.

For those who brought up HBI, was going there myself:

Why "Nice Guys" are often such LOSERS

You hear it all the time: "He was such a NICE Guy, and she's such a Heartless Bitch for dumping him."

I get letters from self-professed Nice Guys, complaining that women must WANT to be treated like shit, because THEY, the "Nice Guy" have failed repeatedly in relationships. This is akin to the false logic that "Whales are mammals. Whales live in the sea. Therefore, all mammals live in the sea."

If you have one bad relationship after another, the only common denominator is YOU. Think about it.

What's wrong with Nice Guys? The biggest problem is that most Nice Guys (tm) are hideously insecure. They are so anxious to be liked and loved that they do things for other people to gain acceptance and attention, rather than for the simply pleasure of giving. You never know if a Nice Guy really likes you for who you are, or if he has glommed onto you out of desperation because you actually paid some kind of attention to him.

Nice Guys exude insecurity -- a big red target for the predators of the world. There are women out there who are "users" -- just looking for a sucker to take advantage of. Users home-in on "Nice Guys", stroke their egos, take them for a ride, add a notch to their belts, and move on. It's no wonder so many Nice Guys complain about women being horrible, when the so often the kind of woman that gets attracted to them is the lowest form of life...

Self-confident, caring, decent-hearted women find "Nice Guys" to be too clingy, self-abasing, and insecure.

Nice Guys go overboard. They bring roses to a "lets get together for coffee" date. They try to buy her affections with presents and fancy things. They think they know about romance, but their timing is all wrong, and they either come-on too strong, too hard and too fast, OR, they are so shy and unassertive, that they hang around pretending to be "friends", in the hope that somehow, someway, they will get the courage up to ask her out for a "date".

They are so desperate to please that they put aside their own needs, and place the object of their desire on a pedestal. Instead of appreciating her, they worship her. We are only human, and pedestals are narrow, confining places to be -- not to mention the fact that we tend to fall off of them.

They cling to her, and want to be "one" with her for fear that if she is out of sight, she may disappear or become attracted to someone else. A Nice Guy often has trouble with emotional intimacy, because he believes that if she learns about the REAL person inside, she will no longer love him.

Nice Guys are always asking HER to make the decisions. They think it's being equitable, but it puts an unfair burden of responsibility on her, and gives him the opportunity to blame her if the decision was an unwise one.

Nice Guys rarely speak up when something bothers them, and rarely state clearly what it is they want, need and expect. They fear that any kind of conflict might spell the end of the relationship. Instead of comprimising and negotiating, they repeatedly "give in". When she doesn't appreciate their sacrifice, they will complain that, "Everything I did, I did for her.", as if this somehow elevates them to the status of martyrs. A woman doesn't want a martyr. She wants an equal, caring, adult partner.

Nice Guys think that they will never meet anyone as special as she is. They use their adoration as a foundation for claiming that "no one will ever love her as much as I do." Instead of being a profound statement of their devotion, this is a subtle, but nasty insult. It is akin to saying to her: "You are a difficult person, and only *I* can ever truly love you, so be thankful I'm here."

The nice guy -needs- to believe that he is the best person for the object of his desires, because otherwise his insecurities will overrun him with jealousies and fear. The truth of the matter is that there are many people out there who can be a good match for her. We rarely stop loving people we truly care about. Even if we no longer continue the relationship, the feelings will continue... But love isn't mutually exclusive. We can (and do) love many people in our lives, and romantic love is really no different. Though he may love her immensely, there will likely be other people who have loved her just as much in her past, and will love her just as much in the future. The irony of it all is: "Who would want to go out with someone who was inherintly unlovable anyways?"

More than loving the woman in his life, a Nice Guy NEEDS her. "She is my Life, my only source of happiness..." YECH! What kind of a burden is that to place on her? That SHE has to be responsible for YOUR happiness? Get a grip!

Another mistake Nice Guys make is to go after "hard luck" cases. They deliberately pick women with neuroses, problems, and personality disorders, because Nice Guys are "helpers". A Nice Guy thinks that by "helping" this woman, it will make him a better, more lovable person. He thinks it will give him a sense of accomplishment, and that she will appreciate and love him more, for all his efforts and sacrifice. He is usually disappointed by the results.

This ultimately boils down to the fact that Nice Guys don't like themselves. Is it any wonder women don't like them? In order to truly love someone else, you must first love yourself. Too often Nice Guys mistake obsession for "love".

Get this Guys: INSECURITY ISN'T SEXY. IT'S A TURNOFF.

You don't have to be an ego-inflated, arrogant jerk. You just have to LIKE yourself. You have to know what you want out of life, and go after it. Only then will you be attractive to the kind of woman with whom a long-term relationship is possible.

But this whole article screams:

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From a bottle cap message on a Magic Hat #9 beer: Condoms Prevent Minivans
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I want to pick up a bus full of unruly kids and feed them gummi bears and crack, then turn them loose in Hobby Lobby to ransack the place. They will all be wearing T shirts that say "You Could Have Prevented This."

And he gets a rebuttal:

http://thoughtcatalog.com/alannah-ryan/2014/04/dear-nice-guys-who-are-apparently-at-the-end-of-their-rope-you-actually-arent-that-nice/

Dear “Nice Guys” Who Are At the End of Their Rope: You Actually Aren’t That Nice.
Apr. 23, 2014

By Alannah Ryan info

You tell us that you’re nice guys, and it’s our fault that you can’t seem to hold our attention.

You tried to prove that chivalry wasn’t dead by holding the door open for us and by paying for an incredibly expensive dinner we didn’t ask for when we were in the bathroom, so we couldn’t even offer to split the bill. You looked disappointed when I squeezed past you to get into the doorway of the popular, crowded café – what, you’re angry I didn’t thank you making sure the door didn’t slam in my face? Would you be upset if there was a man behind you, and he didn’t offer thanks? Would you have held the door for a man in the first place?

I probably shouldn’t have mentioned the ex on the first date, but that should set off warning bells in your head anyway. Maybe I’m not over him, and maybe I claim to be, but anyone keeping score at home could have told you to chalk it up to a frustrating evening and just let me go. The wine I was drinking kept my mind from wandering back to the ex who just wouldn’t stop texting me. The steak was to show you I wasn’t “that girl” who ordered a salad; I was the girl who genuinely wanted you to like me.

And when I realized that I just couldn’t wrap my head around dating the guy in front of me, I tried to make a graceful exit. How graceful it actually was shouldn’t be a matter for discussion, and it shouldn’t be an excuse for you to insult my choices in men. Aren’t you supposed to be a nice guy, after all?

On that note, Mr. Nice Guy, let’s talk about how wonderful you were to me. Sure, you listened to me talk, and gave me your full attention. You say you didn’t expect anything in return, but you clearly expected a goodnight kiss and a second date, since you’re so still so upset about this date days, weeks, months later. If you were really a nice guy, you’d understand that this wasn’t working for me, drown your disappointment in a beer with your buddies tomorrow night, and try another date with another girl next weekend.

You think you get it, explaining my insecurities as a reason for me to consider you once more, when in reality, it just makes you as disgusting to me as the self-proclaimed jerks you hold yourself so highly against. At least with those men, I knew what I was getting myself into. And while we’re on the topic, who the hell are you to judge my stretch marks and sagging skin? You’re in your thirties and still can’t manage to shave without cutting yourself. Your belt never matches your shoes. You’re so proud of your life accomplishments, but I’ve managed to balance my checkbook and my social choices. Go ahead and show off that fancy new car of yours. You’ll be riding in it alone, you know.

As the insults keep coming, my suspicions keep rising. If you know where I’ve been, why did you want to date me in the first place? If you’re so convinced that I don’t need a nice guy, why are you still dwelling on my meager existence? If you’re such a simple guy, find a nice simple girl who’s never dated anyone in her life and will dote on you like a housewife from the ‘50s. They opened doors for women and paid their dinner bills back then – they also discouraged married women from having careers and you know, living their lives. Times were simpler back then.

If you’re so convinced that the only reason I’m interested in you is because I’m washed up, maybe you should step back and re-evaluate your own perfect life with the little accomplishments you’re so proud of. Maybe you’d notice that I’ve grown up and moved on, too, and realized that I was looking for someone I could share my life with, not my bed with. I wasn’t expecting you to be sitting by the phone for me – but since I called you, clearly you’re not finding that “nice girl” you’re looking for, either. I’m glad I’ve taught you some lessons by now, but it’s clear you’ve still got some learning to do.

Bottom line – I thought I was ready to date you, but judging by your frustration, you were never ready to date me. Stop dwelling on my own emotional baggage and learn to unpack your own. You’re not nice, honey, you’re bitter. Stop pushing for pity as The Nice Guy, and start actually becoming one. TC mark

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From a bottle cap message on a Magic Hat #9 beer: Condoms Prevent Minivans
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I want to pick up a bus full of unruly kids and feed them gummi bears and crack, then turn them loose in Hobby Lobby to ransack the place. They will all be wearing T shirts that say "You Could Have Prevented This."

Yeah my nice guy experience was crazy. Once I agreed to go out with him he went rogue and thought he could run with the bad boys. Like he got so confident that I would go out with him and that he had me hooked, he started acting like a total jerk from 0 - 90 overnight. Of course, I told him to get lost, then I became the enemy, and he the victim, see another person screwed over the poor nice guy, and women are all evil.

"I'm the man of your dreams but you couldn't see that"

larious Oh CLEARLY woe be the woman who let this gem of a guy escape!

Who knows, maybe this guy came on too strong and scared the women away. He seems a bit overeager, and sorry guys, but that is often a huge red flag for us ladies that means you might be possessive, manipulative, and possibly abusive. Been there, done that. Oh and if a guy starts to get emotional and/or starts crying because he claims to feel more committed to the relationship than you are (and you've only had a few dates) - RUN LIKE YOUR ASS IS ON FIRE AND YOUR HAIR IS CATCHING.

These men are clinically insane. Seriously they're the ones who end up setting themselves on fire to cause women the most pain and suffering and horror, or end up abusing, maiming, and killing their partners.

Their anger, self-loathing, and breathtaking sense of entitlement are a dangerous, frightening combo. They think women are basically sex dispensing machines that they plug some coins into and the sex is automatically dispensed. And what does a man do to a vending machine when it doesn't work? You fill in the blank.

Nice Guy/Asshole, Two Sides Of The Same Coin

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