Article: Singled Out: Are Unmarried People Discriminated Against?

@ Techie: "Here is USA, kids are for the very rich and for the very poor
as in both of those cases, lifestyles are not really affected."

-> That's good :-)
I think it's the same in EU. Middle class is backbone of EU
and it's slowly dying out. That's the reason the
newspapers are full of pronatalist propaganda.

Here where I live you get child allowance 184 EUR (for the 1st and 2nd chyld)
You can deduct the cost of chyldcare from the taxes.

Statistics:
On average, one chyld costs 549 EUR per month; 120.000 EUR till 18 yo.

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mrs. chinaski
@ Techie: "Here is USA, kids are for the very rich and for the very poor
as in both of those cases, lifestyles are not really affected."

-> That's good :-)
I think it's the same in EU. Middle class is backbone of EU
and it's slowly dying out. That's the reason the
newspapers are full of pronatalist propaganda.

Here where I live you get child allowance 184 EUR (for the 1st and 2nd chyld)
You can deduct the cost of chyldcare from the taxes.

Statistics:
On average, one chyld costs 549 EUR per month; 120.000 EUR till 18 yo.

120,000.00 EUR = 131,601.82 USD
1 EUR = 1.09668 USD 1 USD = 0.911841 EUR

Those are current exchange rates. It costs more here, according to US department of agriculture. Last I read it was $175000 US Dollars. Puh-runs cannot write off daycare in taxes, but they deduct a flat amount per kyd, whether they use chyld care or not.

Middle class still exists here, but decent disposable income is mostly among single and CF people - just don't tell our government that or they will raise our taxes. There is a decent amount of debt and if we look at who defaults the most, they are usually puhrunts since they are exempt from paying.

I googled it and it's even more for the US as you posted!

http://money.cnn.com/2014/08/18/pf/child-cost/

"To raise a child born in 2013 to the age of 18, it will cost a middle-income couple just over $245,000, according to newly released estimates from the U.S. Department of Agriculture."

"High-income families who live in the urban Northeast, for example, are projected to spend nearly $455,000 to raise their child to the age of 18, while low-income rural families will spend much less, an estimated $145,500, according to the report."

And this doesn't include college...

From the social mobility point of view:
1.Rich people remain rich with or without kydz. A chyld is a neutral thing to them - neither advantage nor disadvantage.
When they don't want to deal with them, they can hire staff for it - no change in lifestyle necessary.
2. Poor people remain poor with or without kydz. Having kydz may be an advantage - qualification for government
assistance, council house etc.
3. The middle class people have a decent chance to fall into poverty with kydz. They are the ones who have the most to lose.

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Techie
There is one spark of hope. There are now more single people in USA than married people. If this affects votes, rules just might change. .

The problem is a lot of singles are bleeding heart breeder pleasers who think breeders deserve their tax breaks and ever more perks. Take a single person who has a decent job and house and they are supposed to feel guilty for having more than a breeder, and many do. It's like a cf person who has a three bedroom house and is supposed to feel bad because there is some poor single moo out there living in a ratty one bedroom apartment with three brats. So just give them tax breaks and welfare, alleviate the guilt. We all know people like that, they are easy to find online.

Blondie, for as much as I would like to see some positive light in all of this, unfortunately, you are 100% correct. To a certain extent, even I find myself "violating rules" at times. I don't play an apologist to breeders and single moos, but, I find myself being silent around breeders about many things. I am silent about how many cars I have, about what size of a house I have, about how many houses I have, all that. I have no support for what breeders have done to themselves, at the same time, I find myself fearing for some sort of retaliation for doing somewhat better than a breeder. I also have noticed that when breeder complains, people feel bad. When breeder complains about CF, people quickly dislike the CF.

Something has to change about our culture and there is a spark of hope that slowly it may just be. There is a different kind of attitude that has been showing up around large cities - people are getting tired of poor and entitled parenting. Single moos are now being avoided by men more than ever. Inner city business has been looking for ways to capitalize on people who have more disposable income. The battle is far from over, but I feel that we have to be aware of bullshit that is imposed upon us.

I know one more thing where singles are discriminated:
in a case of terminations for operational reasons - staff selection according to social plan.

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mrs. chinaski
I know one more thing where singles are discriminated:
in a case of terminations for operational reasons - staff selection according to social plan.

That is why I never bring "home" to work. Even my very trusted co-workers don't know how and where I live. People can turn on you in a heart beat, especially if they find out you make more than they do and they have brats and you don't.

ETA: I know a few CF people who love to tease breeders. These CF people will bring breeders over their nice house, with a huge yard, crystal clear pool, game rooms, bunch of expensive stuff sitting around, things like that. Breeders get butt hurt - quickly. It will not be long before breeders gang up and attempt to backstab the CF person.

My advice is this. If someone is CF and they are doing well, keep it for yourself to enjoy. Help other CF people if you can, when you can. Buy a shitty car and drive that to work. Keep nice stuff at home. If you have vacation homes - keep it on the down low. Breeders cannot reverse what they have done and accepting that they live the life that they have created is not really that popular these days.

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Techie

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mrs. chinaski
I know one more thing where singles are discriminated:
in a case of terminations for operational reasons - staff selection according to social plan.

That is why I never being "home" to work. Even my very trusted co-workers don't know how and where I live. People can turn on you in a heart beat, especially if they find out you make more than they do and they have brats and you don't.

ETA: I know a few CF people who love to tease breeders. These CF people will bring breeders over their nice house, with a huge yard, crystal clear pool, game rooms, bunch of expensive stuff sitting around, things like that. Breeders get butt hurt - quickly. It will not be long before breeders gang up and attempt to backstab the CF person.

My advice is this. If someone is CF and they are doing well, keep it for yourself to enjoy. Help other CF people if you can, when you can. Buy a shitty car and drive that to work. Keep nice stuff at home. If you have vacation homes - keep it on the down low. Breeders cannot reverse what they have done and accepting that they live the life that they have created is not really that popular these days.

I do agree with you to some degree but Mr. ECB and I both love driving cars we love. For me, it was a 2008 Mustang convertible I bought used. For him, it was a brand new BMW. While I find new car prices utterly ridiculous, I don't want to dictate what he buys. Me? I wanted one those red 2008 Mustangs the year they came out. The fact that I paid for it upfront was a bonus.

I agree breeders will try to get revenge against a cf person who has more than they do. Even if you don't really have much, acquired something decent after years of saving, or if you have just one nice thing they will pull the "it must be nice" crap. It's funny to watch if they will be hostile, passive aggressive, sarcastic or just kind of pissed. It's not so funny if they take action and cause problems in your life. I keep a low profile, not that I have much to hide, but I have been targeted and tormented by jealous breeders and actually forced into court for no reason other than the breeder feels entitled to my inherited money - because I don't really "need" it.

@Blondie: whatever little that you do have, according to breeders, you don't deserve any of it. All of the breeder joking, sarcastic and passive aggressive attitude is fueled by jealousy and entitlement.

I agree 100%. Understatement is the key word!

Unfortunately, you cannot "hide" everything.

We live in a house. Breeders around us also
live in houses, however, their houses are not
paid off.
I got the jealous commments - we "avoided" to have
kydz and have no debts. How dare we!

I hate the breeder-idiots and their stupid comments like
"you don't need that much money when you have no chyldren".
-> I am 34, I can live till 80. That means 46 more years to go.
So yes, I DO need every single cent.

@trekkie monster: Unfortunately it turned the otherway round, the camping place received so many good points that they are continuing the same way. And other camping places want to follow this example, childless people under 35 are banned during Midsummer, married or not. In Finland you can camp with an RV only in special designed places and that sucks big time.

And about the breeders' jealousy when you have smth., you don't necessarily have to be rich but even if you dared to enjoy smth. however small that smth may be, you will always get their vitriol. Me and DH are considered low-income here so by no way we have extra. We've been told whenever we struggled with money that "at least we don't have kids" as if starving it's ok if you don't have brats. I went to 2 massage sessions because i have backpains and sometimes it disturbes my sleep and daily activities (it was not fancy massage but medical one). Of course, a mombie had to tell DH "of course you can afford it, you have no extra mouths to feed!". Mind you, this bitch goes every month to have her hair and nails done. I haven't been to a hairdresser in 11 years and never had nail job done.

If you struggle with money that's good, stop complaining because you don't have kids and therefore you don't need extra. If you have extra, you are a selfish, hedonistic person who only thinks of themselves and you don't deserve it because you don't have kids. However you put it, it's not good.

Spot-on blackpearl!
I made the same experience.
When I used to be poor (living on my own + studying),
I got the "at least you have no chyyyyyld" comments.
After I got married, my situation changed.
We are definitely not rich but for some breeders you are rich
when you have no debt :-). Now we get the "selfish" comments
and shitty questions like: your DH earns enough to support a family,
why don't you have chyyyyyld?

The biggest problem is that idiot-breeders simply have no brains.
They don't realize that chyldren will get older and older and
their needs will get financially more and more demanding (clothing, car, college...).
They are not prepared for the added costs and when everything goes wrong,
they blame the CF.

Yeah, it must be so hard not having to actually worry about employment and just sit at home being supported by someone else like a house pet. eyes2

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strange aeons
Yeah, it must be so hard not having to actually worry about employment and just sit at home being supported by someone else like a house pet. eyes2

even though im not a moo, im currently unemployed, at home, supported by my partner, however, I would rather be working (if I could actually land a job), and because of that, it can be really uncomfterble to be relying on someone else to live, I feel like my house should be spotless and chores should be done prior to my partner getting home, since he's the one having to work his arse off to support us both.

but I think there are the differences:
sahmo: doesn't want to work, dose everything she can to avoid returning to work, doesn't do anything extra around the house to make her partner feel appreciated, feels she deserves appreciation for not doing anything special, lows about not having enough time to herself, regardless of having around 6hours each week day.

me CF unemployed: I've solicited over 950 jobs even while sick in hospital for 8months last year alone, I do what I can around the house to make it feel nice for when my partner comes home, I try to give extra attention to my partner for simply putting up with my unemployed arse for this long, via therapeutic massage, cooking something he particularly likes, or simply doing the dishes after I cooked so he can have more time to relax.

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mrs. chinaski
I agree 100%. Understatement is the key word!

Unfortunately, you cannot "hide" everything.

We live in a house. Breeders around us also
live in houses, however, their houses are not
paid off.
I got the jealous commments - we "avoided" to have
kydz and have no debts. How dare we!

I hate the breeder-idiots and their stupid comments like
"you don't need that much money when you have no chyldren".
-> I am 34, I can live till 80. That means 46 more years to go.
So yes, I DO need every single cent.

Never, ever let them know you have no debt. Let them think you have a big mortgage and plenty of debt, even though they will scold you for buying more than you need. It's better than the alternative. I made the same mistake, telling even a close family member that the mortgage is almost paid off. She got so jealous she became visibly upset and tearful as a reaction, and a few years later she is trying to get money from me and forcing me to pay legal fees. When I asked her why she is doing this she said it should be no big deal to me because I have "a lot of money". She actually has significantly more money than me, she just can't stand that I won't be struggling as much when the house is paid off. Sick pathological fucks. You are not allowed to have anything, they have to have it all or they will make you pay.

Please guys take it from me, never tell them you do not have debts or that you might soon be out of debt, that you got a raise, or picked a winning stock, or got an inheritance, or anything. Best you can do is tell them you got a high interest loan for that car and you know it was stupid. But you don't have kids and you feel sad and empty so you make poor decisions sometimes. If I had done this my life would be a lot better now.

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mrs.Chinaski
Now we get the "selfish" comments
and shitty questions like: your DH earns enough to support a family,
why don't you have chyyyyyld?

Back when I used to have an SO, she used to get bingos at work like that ALL THE TIME. There is a saying, that if you keep telling someone they are stupid, they begin to feel stupid. Eventually my SO flipped sides and went from being CF to being a tunnel vision driven wanna breeder. Needless to say, that relationship ended.

I do wonder, how many breeders know that if a person is constantly being psychologically manipulated that there is a chance that they may snap? Part of me feels that they are having a hidden agenda and they really and truly want to ruin other people's lives and relationships. They want sadness all around them and they want to walk around and just dog people every chance they get.

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Blondie
Never, ever let them know you have no debt. Let them think you have a big mortgage and plenty of debt, even though they will scold you for buying more than you need.

Yes, if breeders seen nice stuff, be sure to tell them that loan payments are high and that you can't afford it. Lie just like they do - fight fire with fire.

If you can, buy a crappy car and drive that to work. Never wash it, make sure paint is faded. Even if you have a brand new engine under the hood - they don't need to know that. Image is everything. Think of your own success but make them believe that you have nothing. I know a CF guy who makes really good $$$. Being that he is one of the highest paid people at his work, he bought an old cop car at a state auction. You can still see the areas where stickers were. Car looks like crap. Has holes in the front bumper from old push bar. Roof has rubber plugs in it to cover holes where red/blue lights used to be mounted. When his boss asked him why he was driving such a jalopy, he just kept saying his girlfriend and her 3 kids keep needing help and that he keeps helping them. He got one raise, after another, after another. Then, he got promoted, too. Because he "really needs it". He has no girlfriend and he won't date a single moo. But he laughs all the way to the bank.

@ Blondie: OMG! It's like the old saying When you have such a family, you don't need any enemies :-(

@ exile: I think it is already a full-time job to look for a job...

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Techie
I know a CF guy who makes really good $$$. Being that he is one of the highest paid people at his work, he bought an old cop car at a state auction. You can still see the areas where stickers were. Car looks like crap. Has holes in the front bumper from old push bar. Roof has rubber plugs in it to cover holes where red/blue lights used to be mounted. When his boss asked him why he was driving such a jalopy, he just kept saying his girlfriend and her 3 kids keep needing help and that he keeps helping them. He got one raise, after another, after another. Then, he got promoted, too. Because he "really needs it". He has no girlfriend and he won't date a single moo. But he laughs all the way to the bank.

That guy rocks. Aw, sweet guy helping the single moo and her brood. LOL. I can see how he got ahead, working from inside the system playing the game strategically.

I wish I had been that smart, but I have a hard time pretending at anything. Especially because I am so anti-debt, it's like being an atheist and telling people you are Christian. It's hard to act like you are against your beliefs, but can be smart depending on the situation. Just let your "real" friends know the truth.

@ Techie: I think that breeders have mostly bad relationships aka "we have to stay together for the kydz"
and they cannot stand when someone else has a good partnership and is happy.
I believe in the "hidden agenda". Misery loves company.

That guy with his sob story about supporting moo is comedy gold :-))))
He certainly knows how to play the game.

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mrs. chinaski
@ Techie: I think that breeders have mostly bad relationships aka "we have to stay together for the kydz"
and they cannot stand when someone else has a good partnership and is happy.
I believe in the "hidden agenda". Misery loves company.

That guy with his sob story about supporting moo is comedy gold :-))))
He certainly knows how to play the game.

I actually know a couple of single moos who told me that they would be willing to pose for pictures. I did not dare to do that yet, but if I find the need to... All I have to do is create a Fakebook page with me standing next to moo and her sproglings in the front and go from there. Nothing needs to be even said. Just the picture - let them assume. I just need to learn how to not cringe my face and how to properly fake smile.

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blondie

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Techie
I know a CF guy who makes really good $$$. Being that he is one of the highest paid people at his work, he bought an old cop car at a state auction. You can still see the areas where stickers were. Car looks like crap. Has holes in the front bumper from old push bar. Roof has rubber plugs in it to cover holes where red/blue lights used to be mounted. When his boss asked him why he was driving such a jalopy, he just kept saying his girlfriend and her 3 kids keep needing help and that he keeps helping them. He got one raise, after another, after another. Then, he got promoted, too. Because he "really needs it". He has no girlfriend and he won't date a single moo. But he laughs all the way to the bank.

That guy rocks. Aw, sweet guy helping the single moo and her brood. LOL. I can see how he got ahead, working from inside the system playing the game strategically.

I wish I had been that smart, but I have a hard time pretending at anything. Especially because I am so anti-debt, it's like being an atheist and telling people you are Christian. It's hard to act like you are against your beliefs, but can be smart depending on the situation. Just let your "real" friends know the truth.

Sometimes it's best to not let people know what you have. I don't tend to discuss my personal life much at work, even though people know I'm married and have no kids and at this point, probably won't. When I was single I took a some heat about that from coworkers who thought I should find someone, settle down, and start a family, but I had no desire to do that in fact, I had no desire to marry because I thought those things inevitably came with marriage.

I remember coworkers trying to push me towards his other employee who was about my age and single and had told someone if I asked her out she'd accept. Since I was in HR, I knew something of her history prior to working there and there wasn't anything bad in it and she was a near straight-A student in college(English Major), but there was just something off about her. It turned out later she was an alcoholic and had to take time off from work because after a binge, she decided to get treatment and it was suspected she drank on the job, but it couldn't be proven. I also think it's a bad idea to date people you work with because if it doesn't work out, it could spell trouble later. She also later moved in a boyfriend from out of town who had no job and had problems because of that.

I wonder if I had told people I had a girlfriend who had a kid I was helping out maybe I would have been treated better by the boss instead of after taking on more work than my equivalent job did in our other offices, having my boss trash me behind my back after I had to go for cancer treatments. Being visited by coworkers hours after surgery while still groggy from anesthetic and being asked work questions and the next day, boss demanding to know when I'd be back at work before I was even approved for discharge wasn't the way the preggos going on maternity leave were treated.

I wish personal lives would be left out of the workplace completely. Needing time off to take care of family should not need to be justified. As an openly CF adult and the sibling of somebody who is estranged from my parents, I will be the one to make elder care decisions and should be able to do so when the time comes with equal rights to breeders. For that matter, my DH is 12 years older than me and I will likely have to make decisions about his care.