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boyfriend on the fence

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Anonymous User
boyfriend on the fence
January 10, 2011
Sorry for the long rant, but this is weighing on my mind. I had a discussion with my boyfriend the other night that really troubled me. First of all, some facts. Both of us: late 20s, together for almost two years, stable-exclusive relationship, although he thinks me getting Essure done is unnecessary, since we use protection, he certainly does NOT want kids at the moment. As for the future, he says "probably not" and that was alright with me, since all the other signs were there (not kid-friendly, perfectly ok with me never wanting them, thinking that babies are kind of disgusting etc).

The other night, he told me that the father of a mutual friend was expecting a child with his new wife. Said guy is around 60-ish, and judging from what our friend has told us about her childhood, he was not exactly parent of the month material (nothing abusive though, just weird parenting). I immediately reacted by saying that I was disgusted by this, how utterly irresponsible, and I'm sorry about the child.

To my surprise, boyfriend did not agree. He told me that he supported the guy, provided that he could be a good dad, and that if someone feels the need to be a father, even at 60, he should go for it, provided that the child will have a supportive background to take care of it, if and when the parent(s) die(s). He also added that smart people should be the ones to reproduce, in order to spread their genes. Finally, he told me that if he ever had the urge to have a baby,and his partner wouldn't agree, he would either become a sperm donor or he would look for a new partner, but he thought of the latter as highly unlikely.

Now, we're not getting married or anything, far from it, but I do feel committed enough for this to trouble me. Am I overreacting? Dunno. He certainly does not want kids now, does not really like them deep down, and although he thinks sterilization is an unnecessary procedure, he doesn't mind me doing it (and he certainly approves that I have a morning-after pill in my handbag 'just in case'). On the other hand, he grew up in an almost idyllic family environment, and as a guy, coming from a culture where women traditionally do all the grunt work of childcare, is -imho- thinking of a 'kodak moment' rather than the real deal.

From your experience, what do you think? Should I discuss it further now or let it go, wait and see?
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Rose Red
Re: boyfriend on the fence
January 10, 2011
IF THERE IS ANY DOUBT IN YOUR MIND, MOVE ON.
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Banshee
Re: boyfriend on the fence
January 10, 2011
"He also added that smart people should be the ones to reproduce, in order to spread their genes."

He sounds a bit egotistical, so better find a new bf now.
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Anonymous User
Re: boyfriend on the fence
January 10, 2011
Quote
Rose Red
IF THERE IS ANY DOUBT IN YOUR MIND, MOVE ON.

This.

Quote

He also added that smart people should be the ones to reproduce, in order to spread their genes. Finally, he told me that if he ever had the urge to have a baby,and his partner wouldn't agree, he would either become a sperm donor or he would look for a new partner, but he thought of the latter as highly unlikely.

Those remarks are waving a huge red flag to me, especially the comment about smart people reproducing.
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SlumSlut
Re: boyfriend on the fence
January 10, 2011
Quote
rabbits_rats_rotties
Quote
Rose Red
IF THERE IS ANY DOUBT IN YOUR MIND, MOVE ON.

This.

Quote

He also added that smart people should be the ones to reproduce, in order to spread their genes. Finally, he told me that if he ever had the urge to have a baby,and his partner wouldn't agree, he would either become a sperm donor or he would look for a new partner, but he thought of the latter as highly unlikely.

Those remarks are waving a huge red flag to me, especially the comment about smart people reproducing.

Ya, smart people reproduce and smarter ones make someone else take care of the kid.

Sounds like he wants to "sow his seed" and let someone else take care of the garden, harvest the vegetables, and cook the meal. Then he'll point to the plate and say "Look what **I** made for dinner!"

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"I have learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is easy and fun as hell"

:eatu
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JohnDrake
Re: boyfriend on the fence
January 10, 2011
Sounds like he's a fence sitter to me too, kind of leaning towards the wanting kids way. It just might be time to move on.

JD
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navi8orgirl NLI
Re: boyfriend on the fence
January 10, 2011
He is seeing life in Kodak moments. When he hits 30 he will want babies (happened to a couple of friends of mine who are no longer together.) He will eventually want a Mini Me to prove his smartdick works. He will replace you at the drop of a hat if it means his "smart genes" will be passed on.

You may want to start hunting for a replacement.
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SlumSlut
Re: boyfriend on the fence
January 10, 2011
I had the kid-talk (spontaneously) with my husband within 4 hours of meeting him. He brought it up first (do you have any condoms, what would you do if you got pregnant, etc.), and I said I never want kids ever and i'd have an abortion if I got knocked up by accident. He was relieved to hear that. The rest is history.

You need to find someone like that, IMO. I know it's hard to imagine when you're in love with someone and don't want to give up on them that easily, but when you are removed from the immediate situation (like the people on this forum are), you can see things for what they are.

One thing that sends up a red flag that no one else has mentioned yet:

He doesn't think you "need" Essure because you use other forms of birth control? What are these other methods you speak of? If one of them is condoms, I would watch out for an "oops". Just sayin'... Sounds like he's thinking "She'll change her mind when she hits her 30's".

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"I have learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is easy and fun as hell"

:eatu
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yurble
Re: boyfriend on the fence
January 10, 2011
I'll take the opposing view.

Nothing in life is certain. You could be with someone that you think is perfect for you, who completely agrees with you on all of your opinions concerning children, and then five years down the line you could be stunned by a complete about-face when a parent dies and he tries to come to grips with mortality by becoming baby-rabid. Or, you could find someone who continues to agree with your views about children, and your relationship could end for completely different reasons, still leaving you crushed. If you are always thinking of the end goal of forming a lifelong stable relationship with a partner, there will be disappointments, unless you are very, very lucky.

So what's important is to make the best of your current situation. Are you happy with this guy? Do you enjoy your time together now? Can you continue to appreciate spending time with him, although you have recently had insight into an aspect of his personality which suggests that you may, in the long term, be fundamentally incompatible? If the answer to these questions is yes, why not enjoy the ride while it lasts? This will forever be in the back of your mind, and you will probably find yourself balking at the idea of becoming more committed with him.

Women are often encouraged in our culture 'not to waste their time' with men who aren't serious, but it seems that that advice (when offered by advice columnists and the like, of course, not the people on this board who I suspect are primarily afraid of you being oopsied or hurt down the line) is so often based on the idea that a woman is looking for a breeding partner and has to find one before her mid-30s and thus can't afford to waste time on men who aren't of the right mindset. I disagree with this, because I don't think that relationships (or life) has some sort of ultimate goal; all you ever have is the moments that you pass through, and the best way to spend your life is to make as many moments as possible happy ones.

I have some pleasant memories of relationships with people who ultimately ended up having children, and none of these breakups was triggered by the reproduction question. There was always something else which ended it. I don't regret that none of these relationships lasted, either.

But I also don't think that being alone should hold any terror. If you're not getting what you want out of this relationship, by all means end it.
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SlumSlut
Re: boyfriend on the fence
January 10, 2011
Quote
yurble
Women are often encouraged in our culture 'not to waste their time' with men who aren't serious,

That's usually for women who want baybees. People say "Don't waste your time" because those women are looking for someone to start a famblee with.

"Men who aren't serious" = "Men who don't want kyds"

It sounds like the boyfriend in the OP is "serious", he just hasn't fallen off the fence yet.

I don't think the OP should just wake up and DUMP him, but I don't think she should expect that this relationship will last for the rest of their lives. The only way I see long-term viability in this is if they both change together in ways that are compatible with one another.

Having said that, once it is clear that one partner's long-term goal is to reproduce their DNA and the other partner is dead-sure against that, then staying together is a waste of time. It may not be a waste to the CF partner, but the baby-rabid partner should bail and go try to find someone else to breed with.

To that end, I give you one of my favorite BratFree threads of all-time, EVAR.

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"I have learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is easy and fun as hell"

:eatu
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bell_flower
Re: boyfriend on the fence
January 10, 2011
Hmmm, on a scale of 1 to 10, with one being a-okay and 10 being a thermonuclear meltdown, I'd be at 7 or 8 if I were you. Keep in mind, I am someone who divorced over the issue, even though I had a tubal ligation prior to marriage and my ex should have known better. (He was also having an affair with a childLESS WanaBreed, which didn't help at all.) My ex said things your boyfriend is saying now. You know your boyfriend better than anyone here, and you have the benefit of seeing all of the interactions that we don't.

My personal opinion is that you can't MAKE someone be childfree. There is no perfect conversation or perfect delivery or perfect way to present it so they will See The Light. I've been hanging around CF web venues for about 15 years now, and I've seen many CF people who are twisting in the wind, trying to do this. Many of them have been dumped by partners who give the equivalent argument of a first grader, "But I just waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaant one." And yes, it is galling to have a man say this, a man who doesn't seek out the company of children, has no clue about children, and will likely dump it all on his wife and his life won't change much. Nevertheless, the kind thing to do is realize it's a basic incompatability and break it off. Don't stay and shred each other to pieces. There are other fish in the sea and it's a big world out there.

The best you can do is solidify your stance and see if he stays or goes. Also, you should be looking at him in totality and trying to decide whether he is lying to himself or you about his eventual intentions, so you don't waste your own time. Take it from a pushing-50 broad who knows men and who's had a lot of marriage proposals. Many men, particularly 20-something men, who are hormonal beasts, operate their relationships based on this credo: KEEP THE PUSSY COMING. They will keep their mouths shut on short term issues to KEEP THE PUSSY COMING. If there is a looming incompatability, they will not address it until it crosses the line into a long-term issue. When does a short term issue become a long-term issue? Who knows, but the question is, do you want to wait around and find out? Breaking off a four year relationship is going to be harder than breaking off a two year relationship. Getting divorced is a whole lot more complicated than breaking up a dating relationship.

Here are the things that concern me and make me wonder whether he is lying to himself and you:

1. You mentioned twice that he considers sterilization to be "unnecessary surgery" and it borders on disrespect. Unnecessary for whom? To me this is a fundamental misunderstanding of your position. Someone who wants to keep their options open may be horrified to think of sterilization, but someone who considers fertility a burden and considers pregnasty to be a serious threat to the life she knows, it's not optional--it's taking care of business and being responsible. What could possibly be wrong with that? My ex gave me this line. (I was sterilized when we were dating.) In retrospect, this was a huge red flag for me. It's your body and deciding to permanently prevent a pregnancy you don't want is COMPLETELY understandable. Why shouldn't you do this if you have the chance?

I'd like to take these nutters who say sterilization is unnecessary and ask them, would you rather see someone have abortion after abortion? Mind your own fucking business. And really, if someone is willing to risk surgery and anesthesia, doesn't that say they are committed?

2. Watching him gush over Geezer Breeder and his much-younger wife would really tax me. Can you really stand 9+ months of watching him "support" that, whatever that means? OTOH, as long as you can interject what you think, maybe it will be fun to watch OldPapa get annoyed by no sex, and having a screaming rugrat disrupt what should be his golden years, and bankrupting his retirement.

Quote
Huh?
Finally, he told me that if he ever had the urge to have a baby,and his partner wouldn't agree, he would either become a sperm donor or he would look for a new partner, but he thought of the latter as highly unlikely.

3. The first part of that statement makes no sense. If he has the urge to have a baybee, he'll shoot his jizz out in the Universe to make a baybee, a baybee he'll never have contact with? How will that satisfy any urges for parenthood? Is he talking about spreading his DNA or being a parent? Does he know the difference?

And as for the second part, he would "look for a new partner," but he doesn't think it's likely? To me, this is KEEP THE PUSSY ROLLING talk. And why is he talking about "his partner" not agreeing? It's time to talk turkey: you don't want to know how he'd act with a hypothetical partner; you want to know whether he'd be willing to leave living, breathing, wonderful YOU so he can have some fantasy baybee, the details of which he has no control.

Fence sitter or not, you've got to cut through the bullshit and what your heart wants to hear: he just told you, if he wants kyds, that leaving his partner is in the realm of possibility. Can you live with that, given that he's clearly undecided about what he wants to do in the future?

Quote

On the other hand, he grew up in an almost idyllic family environment, and as a guy, coming from a culture where women traditionally do all the grunt work of childcare, is -imho- thinking of a 'kodak moment' rather than the real deal.

4. I would consider this a red flag if you add all the other things he's doing/saying, plus the positive spin on a 60 year old having a kyd and how it's so wonderful. I'd be asking myself, how comfortable is he doing something unconventional? How much does he care about his family's approval? You say a mutual friend is sprogging, but what about his siblings? When they start sprogging, is he likely to be affected by that? Either to jump in and Do the Right Thing(TM) by his parunts, to Carry On The Family Name(TM) and all the other happy horseshit that makes people act like automatons with no free thought?

Being childfree for the long haul is not for sissies.

My recommendation is that you pursue sterilization, don't live with this guy and wait and watch. If you are living with the guy, it's time for him to go. Be honest with yourself above all else. And my other recommendation is to be bold in your choices. Select, don't settle, and don't wait around for someone to come to your point of view. Life it too short to be auditioning for the role of girlfriend or wife and to be with someone who thinks you are less than wonderful.
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Anonymous User
Re: boyfriend on the fence
January 10, 2011
I'd be wary, personally. When I met my husband, I told him from the get-go he'd get no kids out of me. I've reiterated this rhetoric sevral times throughout the relationship, especially before we got married. He used to say he wanted kids, so my take was just to ride it out and see how big an issue it became. Now I mentioned, just a few weeks ago as it happens, that I wanted to sort out getting fixed and stop worrying about contraception. He looked at me like I was crazy and said 'Surely it's better for me to get done?'

I regale this story because I think if your partner really wants you for you, he wouldn't have issues with sterilisation. My husband was once a 'I want kids' man, and he's not now, coz he'd rather be with me without kids, than shack up with some breeder bitch to get some shitshacks. He's actually almost as anti-kid as me now.

This is not to say you should chuck it in though. As yurble said, if you're getting good moments with him now, ride the waves and see where they take you. It's not like you're on the clock, the joys of being CF!
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SlumSlut
Re: boyfriend on the fence
January 10, 2011
Not just excellent CF vs. WannaBreeder advice here, but also excellent relationship and life-in-general advice, too (and I haven't even finished reading it yet):


Quote
bell_flower
Hmmm, on a scale of 1 to 10, with one being a-okay and 10 being a thermonuclear meltdown, I'd be at 7 or 8 if I were you. Keep in mind, I am someone who divorced over the issue, even though I had a tubal ligation prior to marriage and my ex should have known better. (He was also having an affair with a childLESS WanaBreed, which didn't help at all.) My ex said things your boyfriend is saying now. You know your boyfriend better than anyone here, and you have the benefit of seeing all of the interactions that we don't.

My personal opinion is that you can't MAKE someone be childfree. There is no perfect conversation or perfect delivery or perfect way to present it so they will See The Light. I've been hanging around CF web venues for about 15 years now, and I've seen many CF people who are twisting in the wind, trying to do this. Many of them have been dumped by partners who give the equivalent argument of a first grader, "But I just waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaant one." And yes, it is galling to have a man say this, a man who doesn't seek out the company of children, has no clue about children, and will likely dump it all on his wife and his life won't change much. Nevertheless, the kind thing to do is realize it's a basic incompatability and break it off. Don't stay and shred each other to pieces. There are other fish in the sea and it's a big world out there.

The best you can do is solidify your stance and see if he stays or goes. Also, you should be looking at him in totality and trying to decide whether he is lying to himself or you about his eventual intentions, so you don't waste your own time. Take it from a pushing-50 broad who knows men and who's had a lot of marriage proposals. Many men, particularly 20-something men, who are hormonal beasts, operate their relationships based on this credo: KEEP THE PUSSY COMING. They will keep their mouths shut on short term issues to KEEP THE PUSSY COMING. If there is a looming incompatability, they will not address it until it crosses the line into a long-term issue. When does a short term issue become a long-term issue? Who knows, but the question is, do you want to wait around and find out? Breaking off a four year relationship is going to be harder than breaking off a two year relationship. Getting divorced is a whole lot more complicated than breaking up a dating relationship.

Here are the things that concern me and make me wonder whether he is lying to himself and you:

1. You mentioned twice that he considers sterilization to be "unnecessary surgery" and it borders on disrespect. Unnecessary for whom? To me this is a fundamental misunderstanding of your position. Someone who wants to keep their options open may be horrified to think of sterilization, but someone who considers fertility a burden and considers pregnasty to be a serious threat to the life she knows, it's not optional--it's taking care of business and being responsible. What could possibly be wrong with that? My ex gave me this line. (I was sterilized when we were dating.) In retrospect, this was a huge red flag for me. It's your body and deciding to permanently prevent a pregnancy you don't want is COMPLETELY understandable. Why shouldn't you do this if you have the chance?

I'd like to take these nutters who say sterilization is unnecessary and ask them, would you rather see someone have abortion after abortion? Mind your own fucking business. And really, if someone is willing to risk surgery and anesthesia, doesn't that say they are committed?

2. Watching him gush over Geezer Breeder and his much-younger wife would really tax me. Can you really stand 9+ months of watching him "support" that, whatever that means? OTOH, as long as you can interject what you think, maybe it will be fun to watch OldPapa get annoyed by no sex, and having a screaming rugrat disrupt what should be his golden years, and bankrupting his retirement.

Quote
Huh?
Finally, he told me that if he ever had the urge to have a baby,and his partner wouldn't agree, he would either become a sperm donor or he would look for a new partner, but he thought of the latter as highly unlikely.

3. The first part of that statement makes no sense. If he has the urge to have a baybee, he'll shoot his jizz out in the Universe to make a baybee, a baybee he'll never have contact with? How will that satisfy any urges for parenthood? Is he talking about spreading his DNA or being a parent? Does he know the difference?

And as for the second part, he would "look for a new partner," but he doesn't think it's likely? To me, this is KEEP THE PUSSY ROLLING talk. And why is he talking about "his partner" not agreeing? It's time to talk turkey: you don't want to know how he'd act with a hypothetical partner; you want to know whether he'd be willing to leave living, breathing, wonderful YOU so he can have some fantasy baybee, the details of which he has no control.

Fence sitter or not, you've got to cut through the bullshit and what your heart wants to hear: he just told you, if he wants kyds, that leaving his partner is in the realm of possibility. Can you live with that, given that he's clearly undecided about what he wants to do in the future?

Quote

On the other hand, he grew up in an almost idyllic family environment, and as a guy, coming from a culture where women traditionally do all the grunt work of childcare, is -imho- thinking of a 'kodak moment' rather than the real deal.

4. I would consider this a red flag if you add all the other things he's doing/saying, plus the positive spin on a 60 year old having a kyd and how it's so wonderful. I'd be asking myself, how comfortable is he doing something unconventional? How much does he care about his family's approval? You say a mutual friend is sprogging, but what about his siblings? When they start sprogging, is he likely to be affected by that? Either to jump in and Do the Right Thing(TM) by his parunts, to Carry On The Family Name(TM) and all the other happy horseshit that makes people act like automatons with no free thought?

Being childfree for the long haul is not for sissies.

My recommendation is that you pursue sterilization, don't live with this guy and wait and watch. If you are living with the guy, it's time for him to go. Be honest with yourself above all else. And my other recommendation is to be bold in your choices. Select, don't settle, and don't wait around for someone to come to your point of view. Life it too short to be auditioning for the role of girlfriend or wife and to be with someone who thinks you are less than wonderful.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"I have learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is easy and fun as hell"

:eatu
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bell_flower
Re: boyfriend on the fence
January 10, 2011
Let me be clear: I don't believe in living together when you are just dating someone*, particularly people who move in really quickly, before they know someone. You are tempted to overlook things to keep the relationship going because moving out is ugly.

Plus, when you are dating someone, and not living with them, you can be a lot more objective in evaluating a person.

So in the current situation, if she's not living with him and wants to give it some time to see where the relationship goes with her eyes open, it's less of an issue. I dated a few Mr. Right For Nows when I was single.

*The horrors of living with a man: TV on all the time, what I call The Trail of stuff that follows him, the completely necessary need for paid housekeeping services every two weeks, I'm not doing any of that shit unless there is some legal protection and life insurance somewhere. And I'm being tongue-in-cheek, but not really.

ETA; Thanks, SS. I consider this a compliment, coming from you. I'm sort of an informal counselor in my outside-the-computer life. People tell me their problems all the time. In my case, the cliches are all true: I only got good judgement after many bouts of bad judgement.

And I'm glad you resurrected the Best Thread of All Time. Pussy Whipped Sucker is still my hero.
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SlumSlut
Re: boyfriend on the fence
January 10, 2011
Quote
bell_flower
Fence sitter or not, you've got to cut through the bullshit and what your heart wants to hear: he just told you, if he wants kyds, that leaving his partner is in the realm of possibility. Can you live with that, given that he's clearly undecided about what he wants to do in the future?

If fence-sitters exist, this guy is one. I don't believe that fence-sitters exist. I'm a bit like that guy telecat, who doesn't believe that PNB's exist, in that respect. CF people just DO NOT WANT KIDS. They aren't people who are infertile and trying to make the best of it (hi, you know who you are! yes, i'm referring to YOU!), they aren't environmentalists... I think there is a difference between "child-free by nature" and "childfree by choice". Anyone who has to sit and weigh the pro's and con's of having a kid, really WANTS it and may or may not be able to talk themselves out of it. The TRULY (yes I'm elitist - kissing ass if you don't like it) "natural" child-free are completely TURNED-OFF by ANYTHING having to do with childbirth and/or child-rearing (I do not consider careers such as teaching or pediatric medicine to be surrogate-parental models, but there may people people who disagree and that's ok. I am sure there are some teachers or doctors who do feel that their career is a substitute to fill some kind of void in their lives), and don't need ANY convincing, rationalizing, or validation from strangers on the internet to know that there is no fork in this road.

So basically, I agree with bellflower's theory of "KEEP THE PUSSY COMING". I will go out on a limb and suggest that not only is your boyfriend a wanna-breed, but he's thinking "She's a woman. She'll change her mind when she's in her 30's and her biological clock goes off. If not, hey, I'll still be young enough to find someone else and I'll probably be making more money than I am now, so I'll just find another girlfriend - most normal women out there do want kids", etc.



Ah, I love it when you can say judgmental things on a forum and not get in trouble for it.

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"I have learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is easy and fun as hell"

:eatu
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bell_flower
Re: boyfriend on the fence
January 10, 2011
I'm with you on that limb, SlumSlut. This is also relevant to the conversation:

Quote

He told me that he supported the guy, provided that he could be a good dad, and that if someone feels the need to be a father, even at 60, he should go for it,

If he feels 60 isn't too hold, then of course 32 or 35 or even 40 aren't a problem either. What's he got to lose by hanging around for a few years and waiting for his girlfriend to come around? Nothing.
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ShimmyMuse
Re: boyfriend on the fence
January 10, 2011
It did occur to me that may be biased toward his friend, and therefore considering opinions about children that he would not otherwise consider.

I agree with others here who pointed out his likely inexperience with kids. I suggest that once the Loaf Is Shat that you and he go for a "nice visit." Pick a time quite after the birth when the glow is gone and the drabs have definitely set in. Then watch his reaction.

Quote
kokoretsi
He also added that smart people should be the ones to reproduce, in order to spread their genes.

Yeah, I always love it when the Lamarckist/eugenicist BS strawman is trotted out. The difference between all people on the planet genetically is less than 1% - not much to select from. Moreover, one does not inherit education or motivation from educated, motivated parents; the second generation of hard-working millionaires are often useless wastrels. (Many, however, are motivated, guilt-ridden public service employees trying to give something back for never having "done it themselves." I make a point to tell them that no one really "does it themselves" - I had morals instilled in me by parents, certain teachers, CF adults, etc.)

Yurble is right - life is uncertain. So are children. You never know what you're going to get. Ask him if he's thought about the "epidemic" of autism today?

Quote
kokoretsi
Finally, he told me that if he ever had the urge to have a baby,and his partner wouldn't agree, he would either become a sperm donor or he would look for a new partner, but he thought of the latter as highly unlikely.

I would ask him how long he has been thinking about this, and if this is why he considered your birth control options "unnecessary." This is the big red flag that I see here. Otherwise, enjoy him but keep your options open.

I have no idea what possesses men to want children. I just enjoyed seeing some photos of an 50-something aerospace engineer friend, a real hawt number, enjoying his scuba vacation with his GF. Fuck, I took that guy for my age when I met him. I can always spot the CF men - they put other men to shame! Like fine wine, cuisine, and music, they improve with age, and children need to have these adults as models too, to become "smart."
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kidlesskim
Re: boyfriend on the fence
January 10, 2011
"Finally, he told me that if he ever had the urge to have a baby,and his partner wouldn't agree, he would either become a sperm donor or he would look for a new partner, but he thought of the latter as highly unlikely."



This right here is much more disturbing than his being a fence sitter. Why is he speaking about you in the third person? This comment, if I understand it correctly, sounds like he doesn't think of you as his current partner. Then when he follows it up with, "but that's unlikely", then it DOES sound like he thinks of you as his partner. It reminds me of something a boyfriend said to me once after we had been dating exclusively for well over a year. Not that I was ready to say, "I do" or anything, but I had thought that our relationship was more serious than he apparently did. He made the statement to me, "My father always said that while I may have many girlfriends while I am in my early 20's who I am serious about, that when I approached 30 I would be thinking about the "right" woman to settle down with and have a famblee". THIS after he had made prior commentary about us moving in together and had claimed that he wasn't interested in becoming a daddy. OBVIOUSLY he meant, "right now". although he didn't SAY that as long as I was his free piece of ass.:BS

I am sorry, but even though I don't consider it "wasting my time", I have NO interest in continuing a long term exclusive romance with a guy who is "settling" for me until Mrs Right comes along. I am better than that and SO are you. When I cooled it with him after that, he acted completely surprised and it never occurred to him WHY I just gradually cut ties and I didn't bother explaining it either. The thing about becoming a sperm donor just oozes with ego too and would make me extremely uncomfortable. It would be like an allegedly childfree woman saying that she would be an egg donor or surrogate mother JUST so her precious DNA could be self replicated. To me, this is the same as being a breeder. Duh with bratsd

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If YOU are the "exception" to what I am saying, then why does my commentary bother you so much?
I don't hate your kids, I HATE YOU!
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SlumSlut
Re: boyfriend on the fence
January 10, 2011
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he would either become a sperm donor or he would look for a new partner, but he thought of the latter as highly unlikely dump me and find someone else unless i change my mind.

Fixed it for ya, Stokesy-poo!

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"I have learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is easy and fun as hell"

:eatu
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Miss_Hannigan
Re: boyfriend on the fence
January 10, 2011
You're going to get the same opinion from everyone here. I'm of the opinion that all relationships have a shelf life.

Definitely hang around kids more. Having daily exposure to the hellbeasts has turned my semi-fencesitter husband on to the fact that these things scream, cry, puke, break stuff, and drain your bank account more often than giving you "Kodak Moments"

You know yourself. If you can't stand the thought of having kids, accept it and move on.
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yurble
Re: boyfriend on the fence
January 10, 2011
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SlumSlut
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yurble
Women are often encouraged in our culture 'not to waste their time' with men who aren't serious,

That's usually for women who want baybees. People say "Don't waste your time" because those women are looking for someone to start a famblee with.

I was trying to be clear (in the lengthy parenthetical remark) that I didn't think that's where the advice from Bratfree was coming from, it's just the sort of advice that women are generally given in the wider culture. The whole idea that you shouldn't stay with someone if you are incompatible can stem from that often unvoiced assumption that a woman will have children. Even someone who is CF may be influenced by social norms about female behavior which, upon further reflection, are not really relevant to her, and that is why I was trying to draw attention to this message society is sending out.

There can, of course, be a lot of reasons to not stay with someone, or to stay with someone, if you have a fundamental difference in beliefs. Not having that ticking biological clock gives us the opportunity to consider: do I actually want to cut my losses, or is the time right now worth it? Am I personally (like Kim) repulsed by the idea of being in a relationship which both sides perceive as temporary? Or am I content with serial monogamy, and do my potential objections stem from social expectations about femininity, which aren't really applicable to me because I'm CF?

What I was trying to convey is that it isn't necessarily a bad idea to stay in a relationship even if you don't see a long-term future in it, so long as you are aware of what you want to get out of it and you are getting that (it's always a bad idea if you're just doing it to escape loneliness).

I do agree with the view that this is quite likely a relationship which will not withstand the test of time. It would be self-deceptive to not see that this incident reveals a difference of opinions on a very important subject. But with this awareness there are different potential actions the OP could take, and that's what I wanted to highlight.
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Miss_Hannigan
Re: boyfriend on the fence
January 10, 2011
Also, the best bit of advice I read is this - if he would desert a loving, stable relationship in favor of somebody he doesn't even know and quite possibly might not even like (a baby) then kick him to the curb.
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SlumSlut
Re: boyfriend on the fence
January 10, 2011
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yurble
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SlumSlut
Quote
yurble
Women are often encouraged in our culture 'not to waste their time' with men who aren't serious,

That's usually for women who want baybees. People say "Don't waste your time" because those women are looking for someone to start a famblee with.

I was trying to be clear (in the lengthy parenthetical remark) that I didn't think that's where the advice from Bratfree was coming from, it's just the sort of advice that women are generally given in the wider culture.

I wasn't disagreeing with you, I was just adding to what you said. smiling smiley

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"I have learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is easy and fun as hell"

:eatu
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yurble
Re: boyfriend on the fence
January 10, 2011
Quote
SlumSlut
Quote
yurble
Quote
SlumSlut
Quote
yurble
Women are often encouraged in our culture 'not to waste their time' with men who aren't serious,

That's usually for women who want baybees. People say "Don't waste your time" because those women are looking for someone to start a famblee with.

I was trying to be clear (in the lengthy parenthetical remark) that I didn't think that's where the advice from Bratfree was coming from, it's just the sort of advice that women are generally given in the wider culture.

I wasn't disagreeing with you, I was just adding to what you said. smiling smiley

Ah, that's good. I was afraid you thought that I was comparing Bratfree to the average advice columnist.
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twocents
Re: boyfriend on the fence
January 10, 2011
keep in mind that the products of sperm (and egg) donors will often come snuffling to find their REAL parent(s)

two cents ΒΆΒΆ

CERTIFIED HOSEHEAD!!!

people (especially women) do not give ONE DAMN about what they inflict on children and I defy anyone to prove me wrong

Dysfunctional relationships almost always have a child. The more dysfunctional, the more children.

The selfish wants of adults outweigh the needs of the child.

Some mistakes cannot be fixed, but some mistakes can be 'fixed'.

People who say they sleep like a baby usually don't have one. Leo J. Burke

Adoption agencies have strict criteria (usually). Breeders, whose combined IQ's would barely hit triple digits, have none.
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