Dear Prudie: I don't have kids. My father thinks I'm worthless and should die. Family agrees :wtf

It's strange that it came out of the blue like that and the person had no idea the famblee felt that way until that comment. Usually it starts with little digs and bingos, escalates and then evolves into a hatefest.

I actaully thought something like this would happen to me after I mentioned to my family that I'm child free, I figured it would happen around the time the first great grand brat is born by either my cousin or brother, around that time it would be really obvious that I didn't fit in.

But it came sooner in the form of my family telling me I cant come to Christmas unless I correct my behavior towards my dad befor then, he's a verbally, mentally and physically abusive man, I moved out 8 years ago, and in the last year have chosen not to see or talk to him anymore, part of that cutting toxic family out of my life thing, well my relitives started to notice that i never talk to him just recently at my brothers wedding, they know nothing of his real personality behind closed doors,

So blindly started asking my mum what that's about, she lied and said some crap to smooth over the issue, so one of them called me, I told the truth, they talked to her, she kicked me outta Christmas with a weak threat, about if I changed my behaviour to atleast be cordianaI i could go, but I wasnt interested in playing happy family with fake smiles anymore, just happy to see the chance to get out soon as i could and leave her to explain why to all the relatives.

Much easier than having to deal with all the awkward baby related questions coming up over the next year related to my brother or cousin, aimed at my partner n I.

Yep, the father has made it clear that he doesn't want her around. Take him at his word and go. Don't put effort into relationships with people who don't give a shit about you.

I agree with cerebralherpes: no parting shot, no flounce, don't bother informing they're cut off. Just fucking GO. She needs to get out there, look around, and find her family of choice. Biological relatives don't get a pass for behavior that shouldn't be tolerated from friends, co-workers, or even total strangers.

The father is so entrenched in his own twisted thinking that he likely won't come around, especially since there are grandkids on the ground now. If the daughter stops seeing her family, he will likely be unable to see anything but an attack at HIM, not the act of self-preservation on her part. If he chooses to play the hurt party and make demands, tough beansies. Parents often have tantrums when their kid(s) wind up being very different...queer, trans, atheist, CF, different education level, what have you. Tantrums continue as long as tantrums work, especially if there's an audience. A-hole dad might continue his tantrum in front of the rest of the family, but there's no reason the letter-writer should stick around and be part of that audience.

As for any future contact...I'd say that if the whole family seems uninterested in changing, no contact of any kind for at LEAST 2 or 3 years. If at that point she feels like checking to see if the're still set in their ways, she can do so. Honestly the only leverage she has is her presence in their lives, and only they can decide if that's an incentive. There may be a family member or two who still want a relationship, and don't share the dad's worldview. She might decide to have contact with them, but only when the rest aren't around. But if they haven't come around, fuck 'em.

Fuck them! I don't normally advocate "cutting out" family members based on one or two transgressions, but unless there is a sincere apology and change in behavior I think OP should drop them like a bad habit. That includes no sending presents to the Golden Hellspawn, and no financial support if (more likely when) it is requested.

Hope the OP finds a more supportive group of people she can spend time with, who are not huge pieces of shit.

If they really believe she is worthless they have no reason to want her around for the holidays except to be a scapegoat. Her role is to be there to be the "bad one" since dysfunctional famblees need one of those. She seems to not have realized she was the scapegoat until being lunked over the head with it but now she knows. And the famblee expects her to be there even in the face of the revelation that they think she is useless pond scum. Wow. If she maintains contact she is very, very damaged from being raised in this sick famblee.

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ex lurker
And on that note : The letter writer and other CF people, but ESPECIALLY those who are estranged from their bio family, need to google "filial responsibility laws" to make sure their state isn't one of the around 40 or so who can force an adult child to pay an 'indigent' parent's bills , including but not limited to the monthly bill for a nursing home. Cheap or not, that can get into big bucks. I believe at least some of those states make provisions for adult children who've cut themselves off from parents due to an abusive childhood, but there probably needs to be a (lawyer-drawn-up?) paper trail PROVING long standing estrangement in order to make sure the AC's own retirement funds can't be drained to support the narcissistic, abusive parent(s), such as the one in the letter writer's letter.

Imagine an abusive narcissist, like the letter writer's father, who decides not to save for retirement at all, instead blowing all his money on Fun Stuff, because he fully intends to force his victim(s) to pay his way from age 65-70 on...Makes the blood run cold to contemplate.

No idea about Canada, the UK, or other parts of the anglosphere, but I do know that at least some EUropean countries have laws like 'filial responsibility' on their books, so...

That is an EXCELLENT thing to bring up, especially for me. I've got a trail in the form of therapist records to document the emotional abuse (and medical records for the physical), but in the case of truly evil people, one can never have their butt TOO covered. How would one research those laws? We do have plans to (once able) leave the country permanently, so I'm not sure if that would factor as well or not. Also, none of us lives in the same state as our parents. (Their state has a "filial responsibility law" and the state we're all 3 in does not.)

I'd love to know more. Any resources?

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blondie
If they really believe she is worthless they have no reason to want her around for the holidays except to be a scapegoat. Her role is to be there to be the "bad one" since dysfunctional famblees need one of those. She seems to not have realized she was the scapegoat until being lunked over the head with it but now she knows. And the famblee expects her to be there even in the face of the revelation that they think she is useless pond scum. Wow. If she maintains contact she is very, very damaged from being raised in this sick famblee.

I can relate to this. I was the scapegoat for my failblee. My parents from day one with me let it be known I was unloved and unwanted and my sisters latched onto that idea and ran with it. The only time they wanted me around is when they needed an emotional punching bag. They wanted someone to blame all the problems they had upon. I was the "excuse" and until I cut them off, my sisters would LITERALLY wait for me to do "bad" things, so that they could do something "less" bad and have it be acceptable. Example: After getting my ears triple pierced they were OK to get their ears pierced once. (Yeah, my parents were psycho about that stuff.)

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Dorisan


http://community.babycenter.com/groups/a4725/dwil_nation

JFC...I went on to this for the schadenfreude and found this:

Crazy MIL with child molester boyfriend wonders why her DIL won't let her see DILs baby

That is some seriously fucked up shit. Worth the wall of text. I am gobsmacked. PMYABP.

First of all, she never should have married this guy in the first place. That is the biggest mistake.
Sometimes, even if the guy had permanently cut the moo off, the shit that can be attracted despite the cut off is not worth it. She did have an inkling and went ahead so in one way she is as messed up as everyone else.
Also, genetics wise, she has conveniently passed it along. Way to go broad.

two cents ¢¢

CERTIFIED HOSEHEAD!!!

people (especially women) do not give ONE DAMN about what they inflict on children and I defy anyone to prove me wrong

Dysfunctional relationships almost always have a child. The more dysfunctional, the more children.

The selfish wants of adults outweigh the needs of the child.

Some mistakes cannot be fixed, but some mistakes can be 'fixed'.

People who say they sleep like a baby usually don't have one. Leo J. Burke

Adoption agencies have strict criteria (usually). Breeders, whose combined IQ's would barely hit triple digits, have none.

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rudeawakening
Fuck them! I don't normally advocate "cutting out" family members based on one or two transgressions, but unless there is a sincere apology and change in behavior I think OP should drop them like a bad habit. That includes no sending presents to the Golden Hellspawn, and no financial support if (more likely when) it is requested.

Hope the OP finds a more supportive group of people she can spend time with, who are not huge pieces of shit.

OP should come here...and read this awesome thread from our very own artchick62

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Most of those familial care laws only come play if there has been a mingling of finances or if property has been transferred so the elderly parent can avoid having to pay for their own care when they could afford it. They would transfer bank accounts, land and house deeds as well as retirement accounts to the kids name to avoid having to pay for their own care. The adult child then got to live it up and the parent was considered legally destitute even though they weren't because they still used those resources. This enabled them to get on Medicaid so tax payers had to pick up the tab.
People should pay for their own care if they can and "kids" aren't owed shit when parents die.

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ex lurker
No idea about Canada, the UK, or other parts of the anglosphere, but I do know that at least some EUropean countries have laws like 'filial responsibility' on their books, so...

Yeah, Germany has them.

Bunny,a couple of years ago a man in Pennsylvania was stunned when he was given a bill for his mother's stay in a senior care facility -almost $100,000! He appealed-and lost. The state upheld PA's "filial responsibility" law, which came as a shock to quite a few legal experts as these laws were put on the books in a (much) earlier time, and were considered pretty much dead letters:

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/pennsylvania-son-stuck-moms-93000-nursing-home-bill/story?id=16405807&singlePage=true

So that put me down a "google rabbit hole",and I spent hours reading on 'filial responsibility' laws, starting with the wikipedia (I know, I know! ) page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filial_responsibility_laws

Here are a few other good pages from better sources:

http://blog.aarp.org/2013/10/28/more-filial-support-cases-ending-up-in-court/

http://wills.about.com/b/2012/06/13/what-is-filial-responsibility-and-why-should-you-be-concerned-about-it.htm

http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/elder_law/2014/04/catch-up-friday-furor-over-filial-support-mutual-responsibility-laws.html

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2013-04-05/business/bs-bz-filial-support-20130401_1_care-facility-laws-filial



I did go to quite a few sites , in mounting horror, though my state (MO) is not currently one with such laws. I have reads so many CF horror stories about abusive families and narcissistic parents EXPECTING the CF sibling to take care of elderly parents, their own retirements be damned, that I could all too easily imagine the damage such laws could create

Here's one thing that is seared into my mind: On a business/conservative site (The Economist? WSJ? I can't recall) a commentator suggested that as the economy in the USA continues to deteriorate, we can expect a bi partisan effort to expand and extend "filial responsibility" laws nationwide. The Republicans will use their fall back of "family values", the Democrats will use 'taxpayer relief' and 'fiscal responsibility'. That haunts my nightmares.

Not *quite* the same thing, but a few years ago I was reading articles on UK sites in which it was proposed that,to ease the housing shortage, older adults should be "encouraged" (ie taxed) to move into smaller accommodations to make room for "families with children", and if the OAPs could still afford their larger homes after this "encouragement", they should be required to rent out spare rooms* in their homes to single people, who could help care for the OAP in exchange for a rent subsidy! (Introvert's nightmare!) I don't believe anything came from that (UK posters, feel free to weigh in), but the mere thought that government officials could consider such actions...Can you imagine a young(er) person in the 1980s buying a larger house and getting a visit from a time traveler, who would warn him/her that by 2010-2012or thereabouts, government officials would be openly plotting to "encourage" them to give up that home for a flat God knows where? So who knows what US government officials and bureaucrats have in store for us, as the Great Economic Unwinding (not to mention the crises of overpopulation and its concomitant , environmental degradation /probable climate catastrophe ) continues.

*"spare rooms" by whose definition? ANY room meant as a bedroom that's actually being used as a library or office?

Yeah, I went burrowing down the rabbit hole myself. My state does not have any of those laws but both my parents and my husband's parents states do. I could not find much information on the specifics and the phrasing is very vague.

I also know about the "bedroom tax" in the UK, which everyone there is fairly pissed off about. I don't see it lasting long. I wondering how (if we achieve citizenship there) much they would be willing to pursue trying to get money out of me and how legally viable that would be.

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Dorisan
My nomination for Piece o' Shit Family of the Year

That person has been given a gift. They can now cut off the toxic people who have made their feelings clear and go forth to create a true family for their self.

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Q. Avoiding Family Holidays: My career has led me to go to school and get a good job far away from family. My parents and my sister, brother-in-law, and nephew still live in the same area so every holiday I fly to see them. Last Christmas, my father declared that holidays were only for people who had children and that anyone who doesn’t have children is worthless and has no reason to live. Everyone but myself at the table agreed. I was the only person at that table that doesn’t have a child and needless to say I was hurt. After the festivities were done, I took my father aside to politely express my hurt to him. He starting yelling at me that I was just jealous of my sibling and that he stands by his judgment. I’m glad my sibling is happy but I never want to be her and I love my life. Before that holiday, I thought I had a supportive family that was proud of me. Now I find myself not wanting to fly back for any of the holidays. How should I handle my family’s requests that I visit?

A: You could say something like, “After last year’s discussion, I’m afraid I simply can’t guarantee that if I fly out to see you my plane will be hit by a drone, explode, and then my worthless life will blessedly be over.” I’m glad you spoke up to your father because sometimes people say idiotic things then when called out on it, explain, “I didn’t mean you, honey!” But apparently he meant you. You say to your family that you remain shaken by the dreadful things said about your life. You don’t feel you’re being overly sensitive when you object to being told you have no reason to live. If they want to revise their stand, then you will be happy to listen, and then you will consider if you have reason to come for the holiday.

Sounds like they are putting pressure on her to be like everyone else. If the others did it, why won't she? I've been the victim of this sort of thing in the past and it really hurts. The idea of doing what's right is doing what everyone else does.

I think she should spend her holidays at her own place from now on and not deal with this toxic treatment. If they ask why, simply say something like "why do you want to spend time with someone who doesn't deserve to live?" It's just not worth the trouble.

I only did some cursory research on the filial responsibility laws, but wouldn't those only come into effect if the parent in question was impoverished? They fucked around and didn't save up for their retirement, so now the state forces the "who will take care of you when you're old" bingo?

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rudeawakening
Fuck them! I don't normally advocate "cutting out" family members based on one or two transgressions, but unless there is a sincere apology and change in behavior I think OP should drop them like a bad habit. That includes no sending presents to the Golden Hellspawn, and no financial support if (more likely when) it is requested.

Hope the OP finds a more supportive group of people she can spend time with, who are not huge pieces of shit.

OP should come here...and read this awesome thread from our very own artchick62

Aww, thanks for the love!

I blew off Easter, Mother's Day and Thanksgiving this year and there was no stress at all. Spent Easter on my own doing what I wanted to do, just ignored Moother's Day and than made alternative plans with a friend for Thanksgiving. I will be seeing the family on Christmas though but plan not to make a whole day of it.

I also went about four months of not speaking to, calling, emailing or otherwise communicating with my mother.

I do speak to her now but it has to be on my terms and I call my own shots these days. And after almost a year of not speaking to my brother, he was the one to reach out to me recently. But it's the same deal. They know that I will walk and stay gone the next time they start with me.

In the time period that was not spent around the family, I have done more personal growth and made more gains than ever dreamed possible. I still have a long way to go but am better for it.

But back to the topic at hand, the girl who wrote that letter is more than welcome to become part of my family any day. That would be my family of choice which is comprised by a few friends here and there. She sounds like a lovely person and it's her father's loss, not hers!

Agreed. I stopped doing the mother's/father's day crap the second I left home. My moo would still call (a week before her bday and mothers day) to remind me to do something for her, which only reminded me NOT to do something for her. When I broke off entirely from my family I stopped having to worry about that nonsense.

It seems to me this is becoming a bigger problem because nanny government is promising to coddle more and parasites.
Big campaign promises which get the real parasites to vote these asshats in. However, it is obvious gubmint can't pay for it all so this is how they pay for it: bill other people. The next step in England (and here) will be some sort of government seizure of larger homes mother-daughter set ups and billeting welfare fambless in them. Of course, government will not help if they destroy your property: rather, they'll prosecute you for being a slumlord.
Government that doles out will also take.

two cents ¢¢

CERTIFIED HOSEHEAD!!!

people (especially women) do not give ONE DAMN about what they inflict on children and I defy anyone to prove me wrong

Dysfunctional relationships almost always have a child. The more dysfunctional, the more children.

The selfish wants of adults outweigh the needs of the child.

Some mistakes cannot be fixed, but some mistakes can be 'fixed'.

People who say they sleep like a baby usually don't have one. Leo J. Burke

Adoption agencies have strict criteria (usually). Breeders, whose combined IQ's would barely hit triple digits, have none.

The worst thing about famblees who mistreat their CF members/value them less, is that they also believe that the CF value themselves less, too, so they should neither be surprised nor hurt at such treatment. In my extended family, to be CF is to have inferior status, and it is expected that you will be content with the dregs. So sadly, this shit doesn't particularly surprise me, and nor does the father's reaction.

Maybe you can help out this dumb American, but since when is it legal in England for the government to take one person's home and give it to another? I've not heard of that being legal in England. I also cannot imagine the British gov't seizing a person's private home and giving it to somebody else just because it's large. That smacks of communism and I don't see England going down that route. If they do start doing that, then all English lords, Dukes, even the royals had better count on giving up their huge estates, because they hold the biggest homes of all. Let's put some chavs in Buckingham palace!

It has been said that when the holidays roll around, people show their true colors.


I feel really sorry for the example in the OP, and IMHO that person owes her "family" nothing except freedom from her.
It can be quite liberating to be free from "family" during the holidays. The hurt never goes away but were I to communicate with the victim, I'd simply tell her to celebrate the holidays the way she wants to, do something to make herself happy, benefit herself, whether it is something as simple as talking a walk in the park or sitting down by the fireplace with a big cup of hot tea and a book. And to NOT be available to "family" during the holidays.

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Peace
Maybe you can help out this dumb American, but since when is it legal in England for the government to take one person's home and give it to another? I've not heard of that being legal in England. I also cannot imagine the British gov't seizing a person's private home and giving it to somebody else just because it's large. That smacks of communism and I don't see England going down that route. If they do start doing that, then all English lords, Dukes, even the royals had better count on giving up their huge estates, because they hold the biggest homes of all. Let's put some chavs in Buckingham palace!

They don't actually do that and they won't do that. I think the post you were talking about is about the bedroom tax. That's pretty easy to research and read about, but it's basically a way of getting more money out of people who have extra bedrooms.

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Peace
Maybe you can help out this dumb American, but since when is it legal in England for the government to take one person's home and give it to another? I've not heard of that being legal in England. I also cannot imagine the British gov't seizing a person's private home and giving it to somebody else just because it's large. That smacks of communism and I don't see England going down that route. If they do start doing that, then all English lords, Dukes, even the royals had better count on giving up their huge estates, because they hold the biggest homes of all. Let's put some chavs in Buckingham palace!

I will agree, chances of the big brother taking big homes from those who have money are slim. But, let's just say that in theory, there was a hypothetical scenario like that. Most of us over here, we are educated enough to know how to incorporate, create LLCs, Trusts and use each and every other legal loophole to retain what we have earned. Yes, some folks may not be very quick and very sharp and some may suffer, but most, who have big houses, they have some money and they had to have some intelligence to earn such money. Truth be spoken but folks who have money, they usually retain money. Let's not forget, big mansions were built in the days of Great Depression. Not everyone lost and not everyone suffered.

Also, let's not forget, that many bigger homes, they also have big loans borrowed against them which are held by big banks. Big interest is collected every month, which, in many cases, is higher for jumbo mortgages than it is for conventional ones. Will big banks just write off the note and do nothing? Very doubtful. Big banks have big lobby, they don't want to lose money any more than anyone else.

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Peace
Maybe you can help out this dumb American, but since when is it legal in England for the government to take one person's home and give it to another? I've not heard of that being legal in England. I also cannot imagine the British gov't seizing a person's private home and giving it to somebody else just because it's large. That smacks of communism and I don't see England going down that route. If they do start doing that, then all English lords, Dukes, even the royals had better count on giving up their huge estates, because they hold the biggest homes of all. Let's put some chavs in Buckingham palace!

Here in the US, there is a rule called "Eminent Domain" which allows government to take private land with just compensation for public use. There was, however, a controversial Supreme Court decision in 2005 called "Kelo v. New London (CT)" which allowed that city to take private land and turn it over to a private developer to increase that city's revenues. Slippery slope, anyone?

Other countries such as the UK have their own rules about this. Check out this wikipedia link for more details.