2637 Fugly (flotsamblog.com)

These infertility people are out to make a buck. Don't think that they are so noble. Because if you choose adoption, they don't get a dime.

Schnozz wrote:
**Stephanie, I do want to be nicey-nice, but that's actually just because I am ... well, nicey-nice. My main motivation is just kindness for the sake of it, though even that is selfish in its own way--frankly it just makes my life easier a lot of the time when I don't whip people into a frenzy. This really isn't about my hope for acceptance from society. I don't need validation from society, and I don't know that society as a whole ever really accepts ANYONE entirely anyway--it seems like a myth to me, as people from all sides complain about it. My life is just less of a pain in the ass without the drama.**

No, you aren't nice. Passive-aggressively NOT nice seems more like it. So you don't think that society ever really accepts anyone entirely? Well, the sky is blue.

You got that right. Just like Corporate America, they are all about the bottom line, whether it be in dollars saved, babies saved, whatever. The more babies that are born prematurely with problems, the better for the health/medical/research/pharmaceutical industry because this fuels all sorts of R&D which makes a lot of people, a lot of money. They don't give a rat's furry behind that IVF often produces multiple births that often results in babies with problems. If they cared as much as they do, they wouldn't perform IVF. All this is to them is one giant experiment. And in the very end, it's aaaaaallllll very good for the insurance companies.


Nour Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> These infertility people are out to make a buck.
> Don't think that they are so noble. Because if you
> choose adoption, they don't get a dime.

Yes, it does make sense. But I didn't use specific statistics from any one particular study -- just a general, widely-circulated fact. While the percentages do vary a bit from study-to-study, the basic conclusion is always the same, so you wouldn't have been in the dark.

"...the IVF procedure increases the chances of a multiple birth -- so, in effect, the procedure itself IS the cause."

Makes perfect sense to me! Let's break it down for our guests:

IVF = increased risk of multiple births
Multiple births = premature birth, low birth weight, stillbirth, spontaneous abortion, preeclampsia, placenta previa and birth defects.

So, logically...

IVF = premature birth, low birth weight, stillbirth, spontaneous abortion, preeclampsia, placenta previa and birth defects.

Makes sense, right?

athena As my mother says herself, she loves us, but she cant stand other peoples children. I will be planning to get a vasectomy, my wife wants a tubal. If an accident does occur i will help get her to the clinic, and i will pay for half of the abortion.. WHY. because i know that due to my past medical history, and my predisposition for cancers, tumors, strokes, plus other problems in my direct family history. PLus the same problems in my wifes.. That it would be totally unfair on the possible child, to suffer the same problems i have.

Morrow it depends on the hospital, and there has been stories for centuries, about children "accidentally" dying when it wasnt and would never be well enough to survive for long. Even in the 60's it was well known. and in the 80's.

And the british comment stereotype is a racist comment, no matter how you look at it,

Poofy i live near ireland i hear irish jokes, where some use polish jokes. Its all a racist comment.

perhaps if you read this article http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4149123.stm

Half of premature babies face risks.

Nearly half of extremely premature babies who survive develop a disability or learning difficulty, a study says.
Another third had mild impairments, such as the need to wear glasses, by the time they reached six years old - double the average rate.

The Epicure study has been monitoring the development of babies born in the UK and Ireland before 26 weeks in 1995.

Researchers said the findings would help parents understand what problems their children were likely to face.


More than 1,200 babies born under 26 weeks were originally involved in the study but only 314 ever left hospital and 241 were assessed in the latest round of tests.

The report, published in the New England Journal of Medicine, revealed 22% had a severe disability such as cerebral palsy, blindness or profound deafness, and a further 24% had moderate disability, such as special learning needs.

The rate of moderate or severe disability among the general population is about 1%.

The figures also revealed that more than a third of extremely premature boys had moderate to severe disabilities - 2.4 times than the number of girls.

Researchers were not able to explain what caused the disabilities, although it is thought possible adverse conditions in the womb may be the cause.


and here http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/health/3420265.stm

Single IVF babies are more likely to be born early and weigh less than those conceived naturally, say experts.
The risk of a premature birth is roughly doubled, according to Dutch researchers, and there may be a slight rise in the risk of death after birth.

However, the overall risks to single babies are vastly outweighed by those faced by twins - both natural and IVF.

Writing in the British Medical Journal, the experts said doctors should do more to prevent problems at birth.


The study does not prove that the IVF itself is causing the difference.

It could be that the underlying health of women who end up needing IVF also has an impact on their ability to carry a baby to full term.

It has been understood for some time that babies born through fertility treatment are more likely to suffer problems.

This is partly due to the fact that IVF births are more likely to involve multiple babies, which automatically have a greater risk of prematurity and low birth weight.


However, the Netherlands research, from Flinders University and Leiden University Medical Centre, combines the results of dozens of separate studies, and comes to the firm conclusion that even single pregnancies carry a higher risk.


" The rate of preterm birth in singleton pregnancies after assisted reproduction is twice that seen with natural conceptions "
Researchers



There was limited evidence of a three times increased risk of having a very premature baby born prior to 32 weeks gestation.

In addition, there was just over a doubling of the risk of a "mildly" premature baby, born between 32 and 36 weeks.

IVF twins fared similarly to their naturally-conceived counterparts, although the overall risk faced by twins and other multiples is significantly higher than for single babies.

There was also a higher risk that IVF babies would be "small for dates" - that is, not weighing as much as would normally be expected for a baby born after a similar-length pregnancy.

*********************************************************************************************************************************
I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

athena Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I understand this a rant board...
Do you? Do you really? Because if you did, I think you'd understand that sometimes ranting can involve exaggeration and not get all freaked out about it. Just because someone vents their spleen in a RANT board, does not mean that they are also going to go and burn down a child care center in a fit of rage. For some people the rant board is like the plug that's supposed to pop out of the pressure cooker when the pressure gets too high to keep the entire cooker from exploding in a shower of scalding water, meat and metal.
>
> That said, I just have a couple of questions --
> just so I can better understand where you're
> coming from. Though I do not agree with your
> hurtful remarks, I do wish to understand your
> platform so as not to be ignorant of your
> beliefs.
Riiiiiight, I'm sure you do. If you really wanted to "know" about us, why not read other posts on other topics? If you really wanted to understand, you wouldn't just assume we're all some hive mind of conformity and a lot of us have very differing opinions on most topics.

> How do you feel about your own mothers?
Explain your question. It seems to me like you've made some illogical leap that how we feel about our mothers has something to do with our decision to NOT procreate. I love my mother because she taught me to know myself and to make decisions based on that. She taught me that the LifeScript(tm) of go to college, meet man, get married, have kids, buy house is a whole other circle of hell if you don't believe in it. She taught me that doing things "just because it's what everyone does" is a stupid reason to make major, life changing choices.

>Do you apply your hatred towards those who choose to have
> children towards your own parents?
Good on you for mashing together the ol' "But you were a child once" and "shouldn't you give your parents some grandchildren?" bingos into an insulting porridge of assumption. Clever. Lets start with the basics. Just because someone does not want children in their lives 24-7 does not mean the HATE children, it simply means they do not want children as a permanent part of their lives, period. Speaking only for myself again, I love both my parents for the reasons I stated above. Had they pressured me to live a live I did not believe in for the sake of "following the herd" I may not have such a deep affection for them. Then again, they actually DID THE WORK of raising me, unlike most breeders I see these days who allow their children to run roughshod over them, and everyone else in the vicinity.

And there's another thing you should probably know... as far as I can tell, most people here don't hate parents (people who truly have a desire to do the work of raising someone to be a decent productive member of society) they hate BREEDERS (people who create children without any thought of how to pay for them and little desire to do any work to raise them) there is a vast difference between these two groups of people.

> Do you consider yourselves cunt dumplings as well, and
> therefore also refer to yourselves as such?
We're adults, as I assume you are. We're all growed up now and using the potty on our own. Good on you for twisting the ol' "But you were a child once" bingo into something even more insulting. I was a suicidal alcoholic once, I do not wish to return to that.


> Are you a burden to society as well - or are you free
> from the edicts of the Childfree Manifesto becuase
> you are already adults and no longer "children?"
Um. No. I work. I pay my taxes. I do not buy things I can not afford. I do not create beings I have no wish to raise. In fact, I also help pay for the education of others children, as well as their welfare.

>
> Have you been voluntarily sterilized? If not -
> what happens should your chosen method of birth
> control fail?
I can't get sterilized, I'm a female of breeding age and according to the docs, I might change my mind because I'm female and all females want to breed. Oh, or I could get a note from a psychologist. If my birth control fails, I will get an abortion.

> Is it then not just as
> irresponsible as someone else who also gets
> pregnant by accident but simply makes a different
> choice?
No it is not. You see, my choice to NOT have children affects ONLY ME. Another's choice to have children they can not afford or have no desire to raise affects EVERYONE. It is the HEIGHT OF IRRESPONSIBILITY to bring a helpless being into the world if you do not have the financial or mental capacity to care for it.

Anyway, thanks for playing. Now go away.

Good on you, but it seems as though many of our new visitors here have merely skimmed the board without actually READING. Were you to read you might actually find that most of us aren't constantly spewing bile, and in fact have differing opinions on many topics with the only commonality being that we decided to not have children.

Also, while I don't know from referring/non-referring, I do know it's a rant board. You go to rant, to shake your fist at the world, to say "Fuck you", and get it out of your system. You don't go to have a reasoned discussion on the finer points of the child welfare system or to wring our hands over the constant horrifying stories of child abuse that flood our news. If it's public, so be it, you still CHOOSE to be here and CHOOSE to read things that you've already been warned might offend you. One shouldn't come to a rant board to help make a major life decision any more than one should make major life decisions based on what "everyone else does". This board is merely the opposite extreme of breeders constantly pushing the agenda that their lives are now a constant flood of Kodak moments, butterfly kisses, magical poop and how DARE you give the stink eye at Starbucks while her child dismantles the cookie rack.

I highly recommend WKYN and PCF for Schnozz and others who feel the same way. They will breeder-please you to death then ban you for not properly emoticonizing.

No doubt, that in some instances "mercy killings" have taken place at hospitals all over. But in hospitals these days(as we aren't actually talking about the 60's or 80's) it's rare, and when it does happen, it isn't a silent occurance, usually the law gets involved. Especially when we are talking about a small child or infant. People ask questions, autopsy's are done, and doctors and nurses aren't necessarily reliable for covering for each other.

The law I speak of is the Baby Doe law. It basically dictates that ANY state receiving funds for child abuse prevention must implement the actions I stated in my first post, at risk of financial sanction by the government, disciplinary action of the medical personnel involved, or even criminal charges. And like I said, quality of life is not a valid LEGAL reason for not giving life saving treatment. Pretty much all 50 states receives some sort of funding for this.

These days, infants born in the "gray" area of 22-24 weeks are resuscitated based on the parents or doctors discretion.

IVF is not the source of most multiples and rare, if ever, the source for high order multiples. More and more, IVF babies are singletons, because doctors have recognized that the more control they have, the more successful outcomes they have. No doubt it's an industry based on making money, but its also dependent on successful outcomes. In countries where the industry is regulated by law, you see more successful outcomes, in others, where there is little to no regulation, you have more multiples and more premature births.

I no doubt believe the stats you give, but what are they based on? Not simply having been conceived through IVF? Right? Half of all infertility is due to male infertility and the woman is perfectly healthy and fertile. Lesbian couples undergo fertility treatment for obvious reasons, gestational surrogates same thing, my point being that all sorts of people undergoing treatment and not solely because of fertility problems of a woman. Problems in pregnancy can come from PCOS, gestational diabetes, pre-eclampsia, HELPP syndrome, prior existence of endometriosis, or some random occurance. The fact is, science doesn't know if complications during pregnancy which have resulted from IVF are from the treatment itself, an underlying condition, the IVF fertilization procedure, or just some random occurance. One study says one things, another something else. There are no definitive answers.

Your also giving quality of life data, which, is not legal to use in this country to withhold medical treatment. Maybe it should be, but its not. Maybe it IS a legal consideration in the UK.

Regarding the baby having already suffocated. I tend to doubt she has suffered the way she would if all measures were removed. She was removed on CPAP (it seems) due to O2 sats, and some irritability with the machine. While intubating, she's been given a paralytic and some sedation. She'd be given those things if we were talking about euthanasia, but we're not, she'd be given very little pallative care. It doesn't matter either way, because there is no legal cause to remove her from life support, and if her parents tried, they would be removed as custodians.

I can understand the outrage against premature infants having to suffer. I think some parents are ridiculously selfish. The parents of sextuplets last summer whose babies died one by one until only one remained? Incredibly selfish and ignorant of the risk they were taking, and their children suffered as a result. But I think schnozz had a point that when you talk to people with respect and give facts and data instead of name-calling, people are willing to listen and have more respect for your point of view. Being respectful isn't the same thing as being nicey-nice.

And before any of you ask, I do not have any children, but I do support people having access to fertility treatment.

i may disagree with some of the posters here, but thats ok, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, just because we argue and see things differently, i may see it differently to feh, because i am not them. it doesnt mean i dislike them, they make great points and sometimes i have to rethink my ideas, we have discussions about everything.

how the world sees men and women, what real parents should be like. people who think about the consequences of their actions. like not having a child until they can afford one. personal responsibility. and so on. many many many topics.

I dont spend my entire life on this board, i do other things. we all do. as feh has said its a place where we can get the bile out of own brains into a safe place. in my case it stops me from killing people who annoy me.

yes we are more extreme than some. some are more extreme than us. But after hearing for decades, the constant you will change you mind, the refusal of tubals because they may change their minds. and so on. arent we entitled to have a place to rant and rave. Just like some of the pro breeder boards. they sometimes say things worse than we do.

I was trying to be moderate, saying that sometimes nature decides its not right. as i try to explain myself, i get called dumb, because i dont follow the same rules as others, i get called ugly bad teeth. if i dont stand up for myself and my friends on this board, then arent i implying that its ok to demean the others here.

Yes some may be extreme anti child, some may like them, but we dont want them, i love my cousins kids. they are smart, brilliant talented, my cousins are teaching them how to be humans. unlike some breeders.

Breeders are irresponsible, who have children without thought, parents however are great, we love parents who take responsibility for having children.

as feh says you dont have to come here. you have a freedom of choice. to read or not to read. If you only take ONE view, one topic and make a decision. then you are blind to the other chances.. On this board we have all thought about it. worked it out. and we are saying sometimes children are not a good idea. that sometimes, severly sick/disabled beings, if the dignity of that being is being compromised. it may be best for them to let it go. to whatever heaven awaits.

*********************************************************************************************************************************
I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

argh schnozz, no one can make you change your mind, we have all thought about it, and decided NOT to have kids. But to just take one view, is wrong. we have thought about having children. what will be good or bad. we have looked at every angle.

and found it works for us. you looked at cf blogs, and parenting blogs. you looked at both sides. some breeders dont, they dont even think about the possibility that being cf may be better for them.

schnozz please read what i said " as feh says you dont have to come here. you have a freedom of choice. to read or not to read. If you only take ONE view, one topic and make a decision. then you are blind to the other chances.. On this board we have all thought about it. worked it out. and we are saying sometimes children are not a good idea. that sometimes, severly sick/disabled beings, if the dignity of that being is being compromised. it may be best for them to let it go. to whatever heaven awaits."

*********************************************************************************************************************************
I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

when people come here another, and insult us from the get go. what harm were we doing.

tell me that. Its not me, or us that did those comments.

It was YOU and the others from that board.

Who are the better, we who are not bothering anyone, or you who come here and insult us. call us all names under the sun.

AND another, we are talking about breeders. not parents. parents think about what they are doing. breeders dont. breeders use their children to get money, sympathy. munchaussen by proxy some of them are.

parents who teach their kids to be respectful, decent humans, rather than animals.

If you had read any of this board, you will see the difference.

She didnt come here. but she sent you and others here to do it for her.

*********************************************************************************************************************************
I just post the stories, for interest.. for everyone

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
- A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Act III, Scene ii

Voltaire said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

H.L.Mencken wrote:"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein

Schnozz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What I don't understand about the "You CHOOSE to
> be here, reading this rant board, so you're not
> allowed to criticize us" bit is that ... well,
> doesn't that go both ways?
I don't think I said anything like "you aren't allowed to criticize". Come here and criticize all you want. You are already, after all. The point was more, you showed up at the Pole Dance Parlor, you read the warning that there would be nudity, you went in and now it sounds like you're shocked to see a breast.

> If someone else's life
> and blog distresses you so (be it Alexa or anyone
> else), just don't read it. I feel as if that
> philosophy holds others to a higher standard than
> the members of a rant board are applying to
> themselves.
I didn't read it. Nor did I make any comment here until it started raining trolls, in spite of the fact that in my understanding NO ONE FROM HERE POSTED ON HER BLOG and the only reason anyone knows about this thread is because of referring, whatever that means.
>
> And yes ... at least you stayed on your side of
> the fence. While throwing virtual rocks over it
> (though I'll acknowledge that it was apparently
> accidental? I haven't seen where the link actually
> came from). I really just don't find that "well at
> least we're on our own property" distinction very
> impressive. People have been pulling that argument
> for years, and I would probably only see it as
> logical if you hadn't struck first.
I don't understand how merely visiting a site is a strike. Someone from that site chose to find out "where are all these folks coming from", chose to come here, chose to ignore the warning, and chose to read the thread and then...CHOSE TO CARE WHAT A BUNCH OF RANDOM STRANGERS THINK. Some of us may have peeked over the fence, and chosen to make rude comments back on our property. Peeking and comments don't actually affect people off the property, until the people off property decide to snoop in. And I don't know, I kind of think if one is snooping, and finds out something unsavory, it's kind of their own fault. Do I care if someone I don't know, on a forum I don't visit says "Feh has an ugly cat, a face for radio and is fat", not one bit.

> Had anyone here taken their own advice
> and just not read something that they disagreed
> with, none of this would have ever happened,
Obviously this is wrong, I didn't visit the site, and still with the swarming. In fact, I don't visit IVF blogs that get posted here because they are horrifying to me. Seriously, spending dozens of thousands of dollars on a crap shoot just so you can maybe possibly have your own DNA instead of adopting one of the MILLIONS of orphans who already exist seems bad ethically and in the money department.

> As far as your complaint about skimming goes, I
> would wager that people skim the board without
> actually reading what you have to say because you
> use such inflammatory language and indulge in such
> rampant factual errors (all part of ranting, yes,
> which is why I'm against it in a visible setting)
Some adults use strong language at times. Some rants are horrifying. At the same time, were you to actually take the time to read, as opposed to skimming over all the scary words and thoughts, you would know (as I've said many times before) we aren't one giant hive mind and many times folks are reasonable and have genuine concern for the welfare of children in general.

> But few people probably make it that far once
> they've encountered several instances of
> terminology like "moo," all of which seems
> designed to shock and offend.
Just because we're accessible to the public, don't automatically assume we're writing to appease the public, to make them feel better, to convert or anything like that. Speaking for myself, I post on here purely for my own amusement and think that ranting about stuff with other people is a fun way to relieve stress. I know random people come through here, and if they run screaming away in tears, so be it. If they say "hey, finally a place where I can curse and shake my fist and say the awful things that bounce around my head sometimes", so be it, because you know what? I really haven't found a lot of forums where people can speak freely, using whatever language they want, and whatever lack of grammar/punctuation/spelling they want.

"It truly is the one commonality that every designation of humans you can think of has, there's at least one asshole."
--Me

Feh, I consider referring to be a strike in the sense that by referring (linking), you are essentially making sure the person in question is going to hear you. It's very common to check your referrals as a blogger, and pretty automatic that a blogger is going to investigate. To me, it's basically like spitting on someone. Sure, you didn't have to cross the property line to do it, but it's intrusive all the same. And it doesn't have to be at all--in fact a lot of people avoid snafus in general by typing DELETE into the URL, thus forcing people to copy, paste, and delete the DELETE.

Some rants are pretty horrifying, and some babies are pretty horrifying. Either way, no one dug deeper on either side, including those who started this thread, if the original factual errors can be believed. And no one IS going to dig deeper if everything is so inflammatory. You can wish for it all you want, but I'd say that's even less likely than my decidedly ultraoptimistic goal of successfully asking people to at least be decent to one another.

Why are you here, Schnozz? You haven't answered this question, despite long, long posts about how wonderful you are (and insulting mercurior, even though you like to say how NICE and respectful you are). Don't you have a blog where you can spend more time elaborating on how saintly you are?

AND how can you speak for all fencesitters and say they just wouldn't be reading this board? Isn't that what you said? Your goal is to get rid of this board. You also said that: This board shouldn't even exist; you just aren't being a dick about it. I'll bet this made your day coming across this board.

I'm here because I'm childfree and feel affected by what you're doing. In that sense, I'm a troll--someone who isn't using the board for its intended purpose. Though I would argue that calling a baby ugly isn't really the board's intended purpose either (in that it is supposed to pertain to CF issues according to its own introductory statements, and I don't consider a veiny chest a CF issue per se), so my thought was that it might be keen if we all just talked about it and at least drew the board back to CF issues like ART ethics.

And good grief, when did I insult Mercurior? I just felt patronized when he said I would change my mind. If you could find the quote where I insult him, that would be helpful, because I missed it. I don't think I've insulted anyone, and actually, no one has really insulted me either, so I don't know what you're worried about on either side. We're just talking. I'm sorry if you aren't enjoying the conversation but I really don't see what I'm supposed to do about it. I'm still here because people besides you are talking to me, and it's enlightening, and I'm enjoying it.

I doubt the fencesitters would read this board because extremism is generally a major turnoff to a more moderate person, and I would consider a fencesitter moderate by definition. But no, I don't have a crystal ball or anything, so it's just my guess.

I didn't find this board. This board found me and my friend and lit up the latter's referral window like a Christmas tree. Something that could have been avoided, as I keep painstakingly and hopefully pointing out.

just want to take this topic back to its roots, THAT KID IS FUGLY AND THAT BREEDER IS SELFISH

and for anotehrMOOmom, 5 kids? way to care about the environment

YOU MOO

I can't speak for everyone here, but I have decided to start eating live babies for breakfast. Furthermore, if anyone knows where I can get human fetuses with the heart still beating, I'll start eating those for dinner.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"I have learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is easy and fun as hell"

:eatu