2637 Fugly (flotsamblog.com)

Feh, the woman who writes the other blog found out about our site from a referral link (someone from here clicked on the posted link, and when she checked it was revealed that they came from this site) -- nobody here trolled on her board. She then made her own rather inflammatory post on her blog -- one that I'm certain she knew would pique her readers' interest -- and gave them more than enough information to easily find this site. This wasn't a situation where we threw virtual rocks -- we accidentally dropped a virtual pebble that only she saw, and the woman yelled as if a virtual boulder had been purposely plunked down on her virtual head -- I think the term 'attention whore' has already been used...

Schnozz Wrote:
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> Feh, I consider referring to be a strike in the
> sense that by referring (linking), you are
> essentially making sure the person in question is
> going to hear you. It's very common to check your
> referrals as a blogger, and pretty automatic that
> a blogger is going to investigate.
Again, it sounds like they chose to come to the slaughter house, and in spite of the signs and sounds, chose to come in. Is it the fault of the meat packers when they get all freaked out at how sausage is made? Not really.

>To me, it's
> basically like spitting on someone. Sure, you
> didn't have to cross the property line to do it,
> but it's intrusive all the same.
Spitting on someone is a violation of physical space. Talking smack about someone behind their back isn't. Were anyone on here to have posted on her board, then maybe that would work.


> And it doesn't
> have to be at all--in fact a lot of people avoid
> snafus in general by typing DELETE into the URL,
> thus forcing people to copy, paste, and delete the
> DELETE.
Well, thanks for the hint. Now we know that we can peek without leaving fingerprints.

> Some rants are pretty horrifying, and some babies
> are pretty horrifying. Either way, no one dug
> deeper on either side, including those who started
> this thread, if the original factual errors can be
> believed. And no one IS going to dig deeper if
> everything is so inflammatory. You can wish for it
> all you want, but I'd say that's even less likely
> than my decidedly ultraoptimistic goal of
> successfully asking people to at least be decent
> to one another.
Again, while this is public, there is a warning that makes it pretty clear to me that no one on this board is writing to try to make anyone else happy, comfortable or warm and fuzzy. If I want hugs, I'll get them from friends. If I want to blow steam about how my friend brings her child everywhere she goes, and does nothing but talk about him, I'll come here because someone says "hey, that IS annoying" instead of "she's a mother, doing the most important and difficult job in the world and she can't possibly leave him with the father once in a while, or think about anything else"

Seriously, have you never had a thought that you wished to express to a group of people who would agree that your thought wasn't completely insane?

And Stephanie, thanks!

"It truly is the one commonality that every designation of humans you can think of has, there's at least one asshole."
--Me

... and then I spoke up, because I see what went on as a major issue in the CF community. Just to finish the timeline and answer both Nour and Feh's question as to how this all played out.

The "pebble" is something only Alexa saw. When I refer to all these parents who are insulted by your ranting and thus escalate the conflict, I'm referring to them collectively--Alexa and fellow bloggers who are similarly insulted on the board. Hopefully that clarifies things. Avoiding linking and referrals is not a policy of this board that I know of, and I think it would benefit everyone if it were. You'd never suffer an influx of trolls again, for starters, but it would also keep your rant as what it is--just a rant, not a factual argument or even anything that needs a response.

all of these breeders, "HER" included are mad because we all didn't worship what she's is doing and her almighty broken condom. She figured she would get praise from everyone, because she thinks she is some sort of saint, lol

these breeder trolls and their bingos only reaffirm how vile breeders and breeder pleasers (schnozz) are.

"Seriously, have you never had a thought that you wished to express to a group of people who would agree that your thought wasn't completely insane?" Absolutely. And I used DELETE, because my goal was to be understood and get some relief, not cause a whole new issue and suffer under legions of trolls. It never failed.

I'm not proud of ranting, though. I have a temper and I do lose it, but I think that the ability to speak in the first place comes with some ethical and social responsibility, regardless of what rights the Constitution grants you.

Again, I don't think it's a choice between hugs and calling someone a cunt. Telling someone that their ART is socially irresponsible and unjustifiable isn't exactly a warm fuzzy. But it's a lot more productive, if you intend to get a discussion going, which is exactly what referring always does. And even if you aren't looking for a fight, referring is the fast track to drama regardless, so it may not be fair, but it IS basic cause and effect.

I'm not giving away any secrets here. I would fucking love it if you used DELETE. Spy your ass off, I don't care. That's far less damaging to the CF community at large.

Ok...I've read through Alexa's blog. I've read through this entire thread, surfed around the board, and this is what I see:

1. A poster (a "guest") who chose not to indentify him/herself linked directly to Alexa's blog.

2. At least one person from HERE went over THERE by way of said link, and this site's URL appeared in Alexa's referrals. Did the person who posted the link even consider this?

3. Several of the regular posters on this board have stated a hatred for "breeders" but a respect for "parents". From what I can see, a "breeder" is someone who spits out offspring without any thought as to whether they can afford it, the impact it will have on the rest of the world, on themselves, etc. A parent is someone who has thought of these things, carefully weighed the pros and cons, knows they can afford it, etc. To me, someone who does IVF can't possibly be a breeder. The amount of tests, pain, money (most insurance companies don't cover it, and if they do, not much), time and risk involved alone seems to negate any elements of not considering all the elements listed above.

4. At least one person in this thread has mentioned adoption. First off, I'd like to point out that in my perusal of this site and Alexa's, members of this site HAVE trolled or insulted adoptive parents. Further, for those of you who think that people who choose IVF over adoption are just selfish egotists who worship their own DNA, I have to ask: Have you ever tried to adopt? How many people do you know who have? My partner and I researched it for ourselves a few years ago, and found that it's at LEAST as expensive as IVF, and there's not a chance in hell insurance will pay for it. If you choose to adopt a child in the U.S., you are subject to the birth parents (mother OR father) showing up on your doorstep with a "change of heart" and snatching the kid right out from under your nose. Why? Because legally, they can. If you choose to avoid that risk, you can do a foreign adoption. This costs even more than a domestic adoption because you have to leave the country for several months and live in the child's native country while everything is being prepared. And this is after years of home visits, background checks, consultations, etc.

5. There's a lot of talk on this board about how "we didn't insult her on her own turf". In my browsing, I've found that you folks discourage one another from trolling because it tends to lead to bloggers either closing shop (and completely removing your entertainment) or going "private" so you can't lurk there.

6. There has also been denial of Schnozz's statement about alienating reasonable people. In my browsing I found that there was a guy named Bob who came here in a crisis about his girlfriend wanting a baby and him being adament about not. My sense was that he broke ties with this board due to the inflammatory statements people seemed to make about his girlfriend.

Jesus fucken christ, breeders, get over it, we called a baby ugly OH the horror, some adults are ugly, some dogs and cats are ugly, what I think is ugly you may think is pretty, get the fuck over it! BREEDER TROLLS!!!!!!!!11

The idea that i was, was saying you should change your mind, couldnt be further from the truth, All i was saying was Its better to THINK about everything and decide rather than jump onto a bandwagon, then at a later date change your mind. In the case of parents, you cannot get rid of it unless you commit murder. We all have thought about both sides on here, good and bad, thats what i meant. so we can make a informed decision.

Now, If those parents hadnt have come here. this post will have vanished, but they couldnt have that. I only looked at the site after the trolls appeared. doing the copy link routine.

Troll moo for one insulted me, and my country, my race as it were. I have only ever spoken up against the insults.

But a lot of breeders have a superiority complex, as can be seen by some of the other trolls.

If there is something you dont like. then dont read it. its as simple as that. more vitriol is spoken after people come here and tell us what to think, what to write. so in essence the people to blame for this topic being so big.. is you and the parents

Obviously, I am down with conversation. Look! We're doing it now, in a way. I do not see how our single, unmoderated site, with clear warnings about its content, is a major issue for the CF movement.

Say a person wants to find out more about white folks. They find out about a site called "ColoredFree", go to it, read the warning saying something to the effect that "this is a site for white people to come and rant about the coloreds, there will be swearing and strong language" enter anyway, skim the rants and then get all freaked out about white folks. Firstly, what led them to seriously expect that it would be a site filled with moderated discussions about the various aspects of people of color? Nothing. That said, if they choose to base their entire opinion of white people on that one site, they are stupid.

"The "pebble" is something only Alexa saw. When I refer to all these parents who are insulted by your ranting and thus escalate the conflict, I'm referring to them collectively--Alexa and fellow bloggers who are similarly insulted on the board. "
She saw it, she tracked it down, she made a post about it and then...huh... it seems like a lot of work to go to to get offended by a bunch of people she had no previous knowledge of. I'm appalled every day by the opinions and beliefs some people hold, and I'm not even going out of my way to find out about those. Being appalled is a part of life, to expect any less is foolish.

"It truly is the one commonality that every designation of humans you can think of has, there's at least one asshole."
--Me

I knew someone who adopted. They didn't get a little white baby who looked like themselves, so it was much cheaper. They did foster the child first. (The guy told me this in so many words.)

Oh, and the person's name was Jim, and there was strong words on both sides about what he should do. He came and asked for advice and didn't like that some on the board told him that he should take care of himself first and foremost and that continuing to play the nice guy and let someone keep living with him who was desperate for that baby was not in his best interests. If I came to the board and wanted help about a boyfriend, I wouldn't be getting bent if one of them called him an "asshole." Come the fuck on.

Schnozz, you don't seem to mind conflict/confrontation when it comes to confronting people who don't share your same views -- but you certainly do seem to mind it when it comes to others expressing their differing views. And the fact that you came to this board to tell us that we shouldn't voice our opinions does make it seem like you are indeed trying to be a dick.

Also, I think it's more of a "You CHOOSE to be here, reading this rant board, so you're not allowed to criticize us IN OUR SPACE" thing. If we're distressed by the content of someone else's blog, we come to and stay in our space and vent about it -- is it really so wrong to expect others to do the same?

I also think that anyone who comes to what is clearly labeled as a rant board to help them make a decision, has already made up their mind and is looking for a scapegoat to justify their decision. Along the same lines, it doesn't so much seem that bloggers talked you out of motherhood -- but that you had your mind made up, talked to people (some who extolled the virtues of parenting, and some who didn't), and listened to the ones whose opinions backed up the choice you'd already made for yourself. Either way, congratulations on getting published -- and that was a great way to slip in a bit of product placement.

And one more thing I need to point out -- we weren't talking *TO* anyone. We were discussing the matter amongst ourselves, with no intent of changing anyone's minds, or seeking their respect, approval or opinions.

Referring to Feh's previous post:
**"The "pebble" is something only Alexa saw. When I refer to all these parents who are insulted by your ranting and thus escalate the conflict, I'm referring to them collectively--Alexa and fellow bloggers who are similarly insulted on the board. "
She saw it, she tracked it down, she made a post about it and then...huh... it seems like a lot of work to go to to get offended by a bunch of people she had no previous knowledge of. I'm appalled every day by the opinions and beliefs some people hold, and I'm not even going out of my way to find out about those. Being appalled is a part of life, to expect any less is foolish.**

So true, as you and Stephanie have pointed out. She tracked it down, decided that she wasn't getting enough attention and made references to us. I guess it makes her feel a little better. Again, it appears that she is using her blog and her innocent baby as a tool. She gets you all over here through her passive aggressive behavior by talking about it. She is playing her troll buddies like a violin.

Feh, I feel like it's a major issue because it just breeds conflict between the two. It's not a perfect comparison by far, but I've mentioned Jerry Falwell. His extremism breeds a lot of resentment from agnostics (of which I am one). I don't let that resentment bleed over into my treatment of other Christians, many of whom have never done anything to me, but it does happen. I'm sure that at times I've been jerky or defensive to someone who is a Christian even when they DIDN'T do anything to me. In the CF lifestyle as well, anytime a parent opens his or her mouth, there IS that little element of internal eye-rolling, like "Oh, God, here we go." A lot of parents are sort of guilty until proven innocent with me, and I think the blame for that lies in no small part with the more obnoxious parents--the extremists on that side.

I would actually be okay with your scenario of someone finding your site, reading the warning, and proceeding. When I talked about my own research experiences, I intended to use that idea to back up the notion that moderation is a better catalyst for change. But as the board is right now, if someone shows up to read it, it's not as if they aren't warned pretty quickly.

The referrals seem like a different story because visitors don't get linked to the warning page. They get linked to a page full of insults flung at them. Yes, a bigger person would just walk away, but a bigger CF person would shrug off obnoxious parents and live their lives. We're all defensive and we all have those urges to rant or stick up for ourselves. So, a blogger gets a link, feels insulted, and conflict ensues, and the social fallout is pretty much always detrimental. That's my complaint.

Of course I wish that this sort of ranting just didn't show its nasty face on the Internet. I think it IS nasty, and my saying so isn't going to surprise anyone. But if that were my only complaint, I wouldn't be here. I'm not so ambitious as to think I can convince a rant board to self-destruct just because I think it's base to express social frustration in that way. I'd just like stronger measures to make sure it be TRULY kept on its side of the fence. And if someone reads all that I've written here and says "Gosh, hey, maybe extremism IS kind of counterproductive!" Well ... lovely.

And yes, we are conversing, and I see that as productive in its own right.

"4. Further, for those of you who think that people who choose IVF over adoption are just selfish egotists who worship their own DNA, I have to ask: Have you ever tried to adopt?"
Pssst. We don't want children as a perminant part of our lives, even adopted.

"How many people do you know who have?"
I'm marrying someone who was adopted. I know several people, lesbians even, who've adopted. I know a couple who've adopted more than one. The funny thing about adoption is that you will get a baby.

"My partner and I researched it for ourselves a few years ago, and found that it's at LEAST as expensive as IVF, and there's not a chance in hell insurance will pay for it."
I fail to see why IVF should be paid for by insurance in the first place. No one NEEDS to have a child to maintain their health, and I don't know of a single instance where a person died from infertility.
Here's a news flash: Having children is expensive, no matter how you manage it. If you aren't prepared to pay, and you will, you might want to rethink that life choice.


"If you choose to avoid that risk, you can do a foreign adoption. This costs even more than a domestic adoption because you have to leave the country for several months and live in the child's native country while everything is being prepared. And this is after years of home visits, background checks, consultations, etc."
I don't know what countries you are talking about, but the people I know who've adopted overseas didn't have to be in the country for any longer than it took to land at the airport, travel to the orphanage the child was housed at, and return to the airport. These were kids from India, Africa and Korea. Oh, and they were families who worked in the non-profit sector where people don't make a lot of money.

5. There's a lot of talk on this board about how "we didn't insult her on her own turf". In my browsing, I've found that you folks discourage one another from trolling because it tends to lead to bloggers either closing shop (and completely removing your entertainment) or going "private" so you can't lurk there.
Well DUH! Because of shitstorms like this. Thankfully, Schnozz has also taught us how to make our links so we can go lurk all we want without leaving any little footy prints. Apparently, some folks feel lurking is harmful to the extreme. Please enlighten me as to what harm there is in lurking around a particularly fascinating blog, and then commenting on it elsewhere?

"Being appalled is a part of life, to expect any less is foolish." I could not agree more. It's how you choose to deal with that feeling that makes all the difference in the world--literally. The funny thing is that if someone came ranting to me about how upset they were about a complete stranger's ART decision, I would probably take those words right out of your mouth.

Hey everyone, how should *I* change so that everyone ELSE feels less uncomfortable about their own selves?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"I have learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is easy and fun as hell"

:eatu

But if you go for adoption -- foreign or domestic -- you can be sure it 'takes' the first go-round, and you'll KNOW you're getting a healthy kid because you can inspect the merchandise before you make your final purchase. It's a win-win situation! You get to pick out the kid you want -- instead of ending up with an as-is model -- and an otherwise family-less kid gets a loving home.

"Schnozz, you don't seem to mind conflict/confrontation when it comes to confronting people who don't share your same views -- but you certainly do seem to mind it when it comes to others expressing their differing views."

I mind it when they don't focus on the issue and instead focus on physical appearance or some other irrelevant thing. I feel as if I've done a good job sticking to the issue instead of attacking anyone. That's the sort of conflict I'm opposed to. I have no complaints about discussion, even between two people who could not disagree more.

"If we're distressed by the content of someone else's blog, we come to and stay in our space and vent about it -- is it really so wrong to expect others to do the same?"

Yes. Well, maybe "wrong" isn't the right word. "Vastly unrealistic" is probably a better way to put it, but yes. If you refer, you're going to get shit 9 times out of 10. If you vent without referring, I may have my own personal objections to that, but you'll generally avoid the shitstorm. People simply cannot resist fighting back when you compare their kid to animal balls. It's as easy and as complicated as that. If insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result, referring is all kinds of crazy.

"Along the same lines, it doesn't so much seem that bloggers talked you out of motherhood -- but that you had your mind made up, talked to people (some who extolled the virtues of parenting, and some who didn't), and listened to the ones whose opinions backed up the choice you'd already made for yourself."

Well, sure. I used their information to make a choice that better suited my personality. But bloggers truly did open my eyes to the realities of parenting, and I was able to trust their information because they represented themselves as reasonable people.

"Either way, congratulations on getting published -- and that was a great way to slip in a bit of product placement."

I didn't get paid for the article. I wrote it because it was philosophically important to me. Anyway, that's the title of the article, not the book, so I don't even know that you could even find it that way. If you would like to know where to get it, just ask, but it seems that volunteering that information would apparently be distasteful self-promotion. At any rate, I assure you I won't see a dime, so no worries.

"And one more thing I need to point out -- we weren't talking *TO* anyone. We were discussing the matter amongst ourselves, with no intent of changing anyone's minds, or seeking their respect, approval or opinions."

I don't considering referring to be "discussing the matter among yourselves." Someone shot down my "spitting over the fence" metaphor as a violation of physical space ... but pretty much every metaphor I come up with is going to involve physical space, seeing as the Internet is one of the only social systems without it, so I don't think I can do any better than that.

That's probably the crux of the argument at this point: whether referring really counts as just discussing among yourselves. This case may have been accidental, but if that's the case, a mistake was still made and it was on THIS side of the fence first. My most basic request, though of course I have higher hopes for humanity in general, has always just been that more care be taken with that. The discussion just evolved from there.

"Feh, I feel like it's a major issue because it just breeds conflict between the two. It's not a perfect comparison by far, but I've mentioned Jerry Falwell. His extremism breeds a lot of resentment from agnostics (of which I am one)."
HA! Then you can probably imagine what it does to us atheists. His ilk fill me with an almost homicidal rage that can only be suppressed by ranting about religion shoving assholes with my friends, or virtually. I won't go any further with that.

"A lot of parents are sort of guilty until proven innocent with me, and I think the blame for that lies in no small part with the more obnoxious parents--the extremists on that side."
And this is why I try to draw a distinct line between breeder and parent in my rantings.

"I would actually be okay with your scenario of someone finding your site, reading the warning, and proceeding. When I talked about my own research experiences, I intended to use that idea to back up the notion that moderation is a better catalyst for change. But as the board is right now, if someone shows up to read it, it's not as if they aren't warned pretty quickly."
I don't think the purpose of this site is to change anything, it's not like we're organizing, or doing much beyond our own mental masturbation.

"The referrals seem like a different story because visitors don't get linked to the warning page. They get linked to a page full of insults flung at them. Yes, a bigger person would just walk away, but a bigger CF person would shrug off obnoxious parents and live their lives. We're all defensive and we all have those urges to rant or stick up for ourselves. So, a blogger gets a link, feels insulted, and conflict ensues, and the social fallout is pretty much always detrimental. That's my complaint."
I might add here that not everyone on the internet is savvy of how the internets work, I did not know how referrals worked, and I did not know that folks didn't get a warning. I'd also add that you've stated a fact of life, people feel slighted, defend themselves and the other party gets cheesed off that someone isn't in total agreement. However, do I seek out folks with bad opinions of me? No, I don't need that. If I'm eavesdropping on someone who then talks smack about me, do I crap all over their lawn? I might think about it, I might tell my friends, but I won't actually do it...unless massive amounts of alcohol, or money, are involved. FYI, I'll crap any lawn for at least $100.

"Of course I wish that this sort of ranting just didn't show its nasty face on the Internet. I think it IS nasty, and my saying so isn't going to surprise anyone. But if that were my only complaint, I wouldn't be here."
Free speech baby, even if you don't agree with it. It is the most amazing right we have. I don't agree with Jerry Falwell, and given the chance I would kick his ass or at least yell equally offensive things a him for the rest of his life (isn't he dead yet?). He has the right to spew his stupid bile and I think that's glorious. because as a result, I have the right to call him an Evil Mother Fucker, and can only dream of telling him to his face because I don't want to change anything about him, I just want to make him cry.

"I'm not so ambitious as to think I can convince a rant board to self-destruct just because I think it's base to express social frustration in that way."
I've got some bad news for you sunshine...and it's more than Pink isn't well. Humans are base. Humans are animals. Nicey nice is facade that crumbles pretty quickly after a couple weeks without power, when the economy collapses, when the bombs start falling, when a hurricane wipes out your entire city or GW puts us all into camps for our "safety". Sure, I'm crabbing away on a board to faceless people I do not know, but you know what? I'm super nice to the annoying volunteer at my office who doesn't know when to stop talking, I'm sweet as pie to my coworker who is "sick" every Friday, and I'm friendly as hell to the mother with an armload of bags trying to get through a door. And to me, a person who grew up in the real world without the internets, that's what matters most.

"Gosh, hey, maybe extremism IS kind of counterproductive!" Well ... lovely."
I am fanatical in my hatred of fanatics, it doesn't make sense but that's how I swing.

"It truly is the one commonality that every designation of humans you can think of has, there's at least one asshole."
--Me

poofy_puff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey everyone, how should *I* change so that
> everyone ELSE feels less uncomfortable about their
> own selves?

You need to put gravy on the fetii you consume. It's bad ettiquette to have them uncovered like that. Oh, and don't complain about the boobies in the strip club. Sheesh!
Oh, and stop comparing children to testicles. Testicles are much more enjoyable.

"It truly is the one commonality that every designation of humans you can think of has, there's at least one asshole."
--Me

I would NEVER complain about boobies in strip clubs, except when there is a baybee sucking on one!

Thanks for the advice on gravy, etc.

Nighty-nite folks!

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"I have learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is easy and fun as hell"

:eatu

Feh, I don't really consider it eavesdropping if it's in plain text right on a website. It's not like anyone needs to put their ear to a door or sneak around corners to see it. I actually don't know WHAT I would call it--it's sort of unparalleled in the real world, whatever that even is.

"Free speech baby, even if you don't agree with it, it is the most amazing right we have. I don't agree with Jerry Falwell, and given the chance I would kick his ass or at least yell equally offensive things a him for the rest of his life (as he's done to mine), but he has the right to spew his stupid bile and I think that's glorious because as a result, I have the right to call him an Evil Mother Fucker."

Absolutely. The question here would be whether that really furthers your agenda or just makes the entire matter worse, both socially and politically. Even if you aren't an advocate for change, it would seem that you at least wouldn't want to wind up embroiled in a flame war with him and his minions.

"Nicey nice is facade that crumbles pretty quickly after a couple weeks without power, when the economy collapses ..."

Again, I'm not arguing for nicey-nice. I'm generally arguing for moderation, even if "moderation" means withholding the more inflammatory insults. No one needs to poop Disney cartoons or anything.

"but you know what? I'm super nice to the annoying volunteer at my office who doesn't know when to stop talking, I'm sweet as pie to my coworker who is "sick" every Friday, and I'm friendly as hell to the mother with an armload of bags trying to get through a door. And to me, a person who grew up in the real world without the internets, that's what matters most."

That IS what matters most, and I'm the same way. Which is why, if I wouldn't say it near someone at a dinner party, I wouldn't say it with a referral either, because then you ARE talking to them, or at least very carelessly within earshot while they use the restroom right next to the kitchen. It's just a matter involving a basic social decency that most people seem to think doesn't apply to the Internet.

"I am fanatical in my hatred of fanatics, it doesn't make sense but that's how I swing."
It makes perfect sense, actually, because that's how all the fanatics swing--hatred, rather than a deep devotion to their own convictions, is what makes a fanatic a fanatic. And I'm sure you can imagine how I feel about fanaticism in general and its impact on society. You say you hate fanatics. What, in your opinion, sets you apart from them? I genuinely want to know.

Oh, and Feh, I forgot to say that I understand that not everyone understands referrals. In fact my understanding borders on painful awareness. That's a big reason why it seemed like a worthwhile thing to talk about. But don't get me wrong in that I don't expect everyone to just know better. If you don't blog, it's probably pretty unfamiliar territory, and most nonbloggers probably don't realize that it takes about zero effort to "eavesdrop." One click on a screaming traffic alert and you're there--the "seeking us out" stuff is pretty inaccurate, because there's pretty much zero seeking involved.

I'm sure we've become tedious to all other readers now...but I love to talk about myself...
"Absolutely. The question here would be whether that really furthers your agenda or just makes the entire matter worse, both socially and politically. Even if you aren't an advocate for change, it would seem that you at least wouldn't want to wind up embroiled in a flame war with him and his minions."
Because I do not believe their minds can be changed, at least not by me, nor do I care to. If it makes me feel better to shout "screw you" to a group of abortion protesters, good. If it validates their misguided notion that they're oppressed, in spite of overwhelming contrary evidence, at least they're miserable, which makes me happy...so more good.

"I am fanatical in my hatred of fanatics, it doesn't make sense but that's how I swing."
It makes perfect sense, actually, because that's how all the fanatics swing--hatred, rather than a deep devotion to their own convictions, is what makes a fanatic a fanatic. And I'm sure you can imagine how I feel about fanaticism in general and its impact on society. You say you hate fanatics. What, in your opinion, sets you apart from them? I genuinely want to know."
There is one small difference, I don't care to change them. I am completely anti-conversion. I am all for people living how they see fit, believing what they choose to believe as long as they aren't inflicting themselves on others. My hatred of fanatics is born of their desire to convert, or kill, everyone who isn't them. I don't believe in forcing anyone to do anything that isn't natural to them.
They disgust me, I won't support their causes. The instant someone says "You must do this thing you do not believe in, or I'll kill/rape/maim you/someone you care about" is the instant I stop being a pacifist. If you want to live in a community of people who share your wackadoo beliefs, fine by me, just don't even try forced conversion on me. So, I guess I'm not a fanatic...I'm just too lazy to force people to live in a way that's natural for them without trying to convert, or kill, everyone who doesn't share their beliefs.

"It truly is the one commonality that every designation of humans you can think of has, there's at least one asshole."
--Me

Jeebus, this has turned into a cluster fuck. I'd like to inject a few salient points:

1. Multiple births are more risky than singleton births. If the blogger used IVF, and she put more than one fertilized egg into her uterus, then she contributed to her own situation. Note: I'm not saying that she deserves to have her babies die, I'm merely pointing out that perhaps she made a poor decision. A baby that weighs 1.5 pounds is not a good outcome by any stretch of the imagination. IVF is like any other medical procedure. Let the buyer beware.

2. As best as I can tell, Schnozz believes that she is the moral police for the childfree movement. And for the record, I do believe it's hurtful to call someone's baby ugly. If someone called my spouse or my cat ugly, I would perceive it as an insult. However, does anybody remember what our moms and dads taught us when we were wee sproggen? CONSIDER THE SOURCE. If we are the low-life wastes of human flesh that the everyone says we are: WHY DO WE HAVE 14 PAGES OF COMMENTS THAT ARE RIDDLED WITH TROLLS? Why do you care what we think, anyway?

3. And this includes Alexa. If she's so worried about her baby's life, why isn't she spending all her spare time at the NICU? Why does she even bother with us? And shouldn't you Troll Mommies be doing The Most Important Job In the World(tm), rather than troll this page?

4. One of the trolls wrote this:

"I've found that you folks discourage one another from trolling because it tends to lead to bloggers either closing shop (and completely removing your entertainment) or going "private" so you can't lurk there."

I don't believe in direct linkage, not because the mommy bloggers could close up shop. I don't believe in it because it usually results in the cluster fuck that is before you. It's the fastest way to get hordes of apeshit, frothing-at-the-mouth Mommies to invade us. Shit, if I wanted to listen to defensive, hysterical Mommies, I'd go over to BabyCenter and post that I make my (made-up) baby sleep in her own bed or cry it out or drink formula instead of boob juice. Bor-ing.

5. You Moos can sticking your fingers in your ears and saying la-la-la-la but you can't avoid this simple truth:

NOBODY TROLLED ALEXA'S BLOG.

Nobody went there. You came here. It shows rampant insecurity on your part. It's completely out of proportion to what happened. It's like trying to kill a fly with a bazooka, and it says a lot about Mommy-worship in general.

Go home.